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On October 06 2010 19:14 link0 wrote:
I rarely do the marine/banshee build anymore because most 1900+ diamond toss players already know how to spot this and properly counter it with their fast expansion builds.
replays? BOs? unit-compositions? techs? etc.?
really no offense since you are obviously a much better player than me, but such posts are so redundant and not helpful at all - it's basicly a "l2p, you are losing against a build that can easily be beaten if you are good enough and know how"
yeah, I'm able to spot this too: but the build that has worked for me in the past doesn't anymore (1 gate robo, chrono observer and build starport asap when I see banshee-bo) and I'd really appreciate advice on how to play against it;
because at least in the kcdc thread it's common believe that marine/banshee/PDD is one of the best responses to a protoss-FE in general since it hits exactly when the P is still stuck without useful tech, so I'd like to know which "fast expansion build" could be so superior to marine/banshee/raven
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wouldn't FE'ing mean he doesn't have much of an army and your marines can make a good push? just wondering because i've never attempted to FE against T.
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P going Phoenix shut down my Marine/Raven/Banshee build
yeah it does, but only if u build starport bevor robo, which is quite risky, if it is not exactly this build. And even if u have pheonixs, it leaves u vulnerable to cloaked banshees. if the terran somehow manages to get a cloaked banshee in your base, its pretty gg.
If i now see a bunker with marines, i try to deny scout and go for 4 gate asap. Attack with two forcefields, blocking repair scvs. U can also go for robotics + 3-4 gate and go for warpprism. Terrans tend to feel a false safety behind their wall-in. Load 4 units->go in->warp in 3-4 units->chronoboost your gates. attack with your warped-in units, and try to drop zealots on top of or at least near marines.If he goes for raven first and your timing is right, he'll loose. But again, if it es not this build, your screwed. Works sometimes, sometimes not....
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1-1-1 is so weak against voidray rush or any rush.
put early warpgate pressure on. bio is extremely weak before stimpack.
if he's got a bunker on his ramp - DO NOT LOSE UNITS IN A FAILED BUST ATTEMPT, just keep patient at the bottom of his ramp with forcefield ready and he'll be forced to use drops/siege tank. your concave will annihilate his force as he clusters on ramp.
my point is that you can try to bypass the marine/raven/banshee push all-together by forcing him to switch up.
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On October 06 2010 19:42 hoovehand wrote:
1-1-1 is so weak against voidray rush or any rush.
put early warpgate pressure on. bio is extremely weak before stimpack.
if he's got a bunker on his ramp - DO NOT LOSE UNITS IN A FAILED BUST ATTEMPT, just keep patient at the bottom of his ramp with forcefield ready and he'll be forced to use drops/siege tank. your concave will annihilate his force as he clusters on ramp.
my point is that you can try to bypass the marine/raven/banshee push all-together by forcing him to switch up.
The terran uses 2 reactor barracks with marine/banshee, not exactly weak vs rays.
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On October 06 2010 19:14 link0 wrote:
I rarely do the marine/banshee build anymore because most 1900+ diamond toss players already know how to spot this and properly counter it with their fast expansion builds.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-150724.jpg)
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My fellow terran friend did this push against me in a few friendly practice matches. I was stumped the first time so i asked him to repeat it. After a few tries i found out what worked for me to stop this rather unorthodox timing push.
I mainly played standard and tried to tech up HTs for feedback. If you feel safe an FE is not a bad idea. If you feedback both ravens and banshees he's already in a bad spot. Try containing him early on. That way he needs to throw the PDD in the first encounter and you can just back away from its range and wait for him or pull back home to let your HT tech get done if its not already up.
I can not really give you any specific buildorder but the answer for me was a strong ammount of units and a few Hts to deny PPD and hopefully slaughter both banshees. If you are lucky the raven will go down from feedback too  .
This is quite risky if you do not know when he's pushing for you because if he gets that PDD out before you feedback you need to back away from it and hope your bread and butter units will hold.
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@madison
we're discussing the marine / banshee / raven timing push where in the T gets a reactor and 2 starports and just pumps out marines and banshees.
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On October 06 2010 20:13 Pobbes wrote:
@madison
we're discussing the marine / banshee / raven timing push where in the T gets a reactor and 2 starports and just pumps out marines and banshees.
i dont even know how t respond to this... my composition in that game is pure marine banshee raven save for my early rauders.
anyways in response to OP. there isnt a sure fire build to counter marine banshee play. but generally speaking the toss who give me the most trouble transition into phoenix play to either completely shut down my banshees or delay me from making the push.
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yes, but you seem to forgot the key words "timing push."
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On October 06 2010 20:40 MadisonStreet wrote:
anyways in response to OP. there isnt a sure fire build to counter marine banshee play. but generally speaking the toss who give me the most trouble transition into phoenix play to either completely shut down my banshees or delay me from making the push.
according to your timings/transitions would you say that stargate before robo is essential to get enough phoenixes out to delay/deny the first push?
because currently I'm not sure how to structure my build...meaning whether I just have to get better at macro and transition immediately into phoenixes after the observer sees what's going on or whether I should throw down a stargate before robo (mostly it would be a 2 gate into stargate into robo to be safe against hellion drops which are also really common in 1/1/1 and cloak)
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Hello, long time lurker
Can't really help P since i am T and still kinda bad.
Just wanted to note that Demuslim used such a build in this weeks round of EPS Germany against naniwa. And it really seems pretty strong. Naniwa (currently #8 in EU ladder) had a really hard time defending it.
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This build can't hold 4gate, so... FE builds also do very good against it as you'll have way too much stalkers off 2 base for his army to handle.
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it can hold a 4 gate if you know its coming intead 1 bunker with marines you need a 2nd and as long its not a map with rocks behind your base like blistering sands you can make that shee /marien raven built
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On October 06 2010 21:04 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2010 20:40 MadisonStreet wrote:
anyways in response to OP. there isnt a sure fire build to counter marine banshee play. but generally speaking the toss who give me the most trouble transition into phoenix play to either completely shut down my banshees or delay me from making the push. according to your timings/transitions would you say that stargate before robo is essential to get enough phoenixes out to delay/deny the first push? because currently I'm not sure how to structure my build...meaning whether I just have to get better at macro and transition immediately into phoenixes after the observer sees what's going on or whether I should throw down a stargate before robo (mostly it would be a 2 gate into stargate into robo to be safe against hellion drops which are also really common in 1/1/1 and cloak)
No - you dont need stargate before robo to counter 2 port banshees. And your setting yourself up for failure by structuring your build around what your opponent could "potentially" be doing.
Your fine w/ a 2 gate into robo standard build. What i mean to say is if your opponent is massing banshees and continues to do so getting an early port either before robo bay or quickly after will FORCE him to concede map control to you until he has an adequate counter to phoenix's or force him to immediately engage.
Note that in an early starport build or 1 base phoenix sniping the raven before it has enough energy for said push and while marines lack stim to properly defend phoenix play is an option.
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The PoltPrime one at ~5-6 min with just 1 banshee 1 raven and a few marines and marauders does seem way scarier xX
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On October 06 2010 21:11 MadisonStreet wrote:
Note that in an early starport build or 1 base phoenix sniping the raven before it has enough energy for said push and while marines lack stim to properly defend phoenix play is an option.
thanks, I really haven't thought about the timing of stim before (I should really do more off-racing....) - it seems like I'm too scared to harass the air-units properly because normally stim is done; but that's not possible with reactor-play obviously
transition-wise would you say colossi are superior to chargelots? because later on a chargelot/HT/sentry/phoenix combo is definitely awsome, but I'm not sure if I can get there without colossi; am I correct to assume that it depends whether or not there was any major engagement with unit-trade, meaning that I'm safe to go faster chargelots if we both have lost huge parts of our armies already?
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Like I said dont be so composition focused. Every unit can work in a given situation. Against starport play - collosus are next to useless im not going to engage in a fight with marines and banshees. Im going to chip at your collosus and then stim in.
So I'd say try to transition into templar after your initial 2 - 3 collosus. Dont expect to win with your gate way blob + colloxen
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I just get blink stalkers, imo this works better because of timing issues with other counters.
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Blink is an excellent skill to have, but don't you sacrifice too much gas for it so early?
7banshee/raven and buildings + addons gives you 1300+ gas at 11 mins.
robo/council, 2 observers, blink costs 550, leaving you with 750 gas for sentries/stalkers.
2 sentries and 11 stalkers don't stand a chance against PDD + 7 banshees with 3 SCVs, and the 35 marines along with em causes trouble.
Phoenix seemed to be the best defense I've encountered with it, they hit banshees for a ton. The thing here is that the push will always be a win for the terran or you both lose heavily, and you both expand and adjust, though the terran will have the advantage since The CC was being built midway and it will land as an orbital command with a big headstart.
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EPT
