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I encountered this today and a guy i was talking to who cbf'd lookin at replay just said get observers.
However i versed a Viking, Banshee, Raven where the Viking replaced the marines. He killed my gass probes constantly, i was forced to stick to my base (kulas ravine) and any observer that tried to scout got owned by vikin/ravin
i coulndt keep building observers and stalkers off of one base. Frankly i think its a noob build simple as that and at the moment there is no build to counter. We're forced to get observers as there is no other way of scouting his base due to the jewish rax depot wall they build so a robo is guarenteed.
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I lost a PvT vs. some similar strategy on steppes of war.
My biggest problems vs. this are:- The phoenix bug.
- not being able to spot if the Terran is researching the cloacking device upgrade.
I fent off his marauder push, lost more units than him, but had a small eco advantage. When I spotted the starport, I built a robo, built an obs. Next problem: You can not scout with the obs, because of the possibility that he might harass you with cloaked banshees. So you also don't know if the Terran expands.
I wanted to tech to Colossi anyway, so I did. Problem: the next push came around the 8 to 10 minutes mark. He didn't have 2 banshees, but 4! He didn't have a raven and didn't research cloak.
Although my army, which consisted of zealots, stalkers, one colossi and one observer was as costy as his, he obliterated it.
That is the reason, why before 1.1.1 I usually liked to play 2 or 3 gate, stargate vs. Terrans. I just do that, harass, receive perfect information about my enemie's strategy and transition into fitting counters. Maybe I'll try that again and pay perfect attention to the bug. While I don't have a robo, a forge might secure my base against any cloak play.
edit: Again, the real problem to me is, that you have to play a very precise counter but deal with a lot of ambiguity. You don't know, if he researches cloak. You don't know if he expands. You don't know when he switches entirely to something else.
If I'd know right from the start, that he won't research cloak, I'd just play some 4 or 5 gate high templar tech and totally crush his bio/banshee army.
I'm 1.1k+ random, btw.
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im out of f'ing ideas to counter this, guess im gona try to FE next time. and just go HT or stalkers or somthing. i just have no f'ing idea how to counter this crap.
Every single terran is doing this now, have yet to meet a bio or mech player.
guess this is gona be the new "reaper" stratt except it rapes protoss.
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On October 01 2010 06:26 Yokoblue wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2010 06:15 BrTarolg wrote:On October 01 2010 06:10 Curu wrote:
If you're talking about some variation of iEchoic's 1/1/2, I've been raped while doing it by mass stalkers + obs then getting blink. You can hit just before banshees come out when all the Terran's got are marines from 1 barracks. Just use obs for vision and blink up into his main, bypassing the bunker(s). I think terran should have more than just marines from one barracks if protoss has managed to get twilight, blink, robo, obs and rally all that to terrans main +1 He would have at least 1 raven and probably 1-2 banshee Think about it... Twilight + Blink its long. He got the time to do 1-1-1 build around the time you start your 1-1-1 (twilight concil) build...
No, he won't. The build that's a quick Hellion drop followed by 2 Starport Banshees will get hit by blink Stalkers just before the first banshees finish. And the Terran is basically rushing to Banshees so he is relying on pure marines (without stims/shields) and a bunkered choke to hold his base. Use chronoboost on blink/obs and reinforce with proxy pylons, he can't get his Banshees out in time to stop it.
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if you go chargelot + voidray all in, you beat this build...by the time cloak banshee comes to ur base, you just attack him with 2 void rays and charge lots...
if it's base trade, you will win due to u would have void ray vs him having no energy banshee at the end...
also charge lot voidray beats most terran strat unless terran finds it out and bunker heavy at the ramp...1 bunker isn't going to defend this...but 2-3 bunker will 
other thank this.
only down fall of this build is that it is hard to fend off early 3 rax aggression (it's doable but dangerous) and i consider it an all-in and I dislike doing all-ins.
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United States22883 Posts
I'm leaving this open because other people share your concern and there's discussion going on, but if you ever make a crappy OP like that again, I will eat your first born child.
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<- Lurker, made an account just to post on this
So many fail posts here who doesn't know what OP is talking about, anyway..
Having alot of trouble vs my 1600 diamond friend who does this 3-1-2 build, he pretty much perfected his version of it (not hard.. its 1 base) and wins 90% TvP with it at 1600. (originated from http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=149215 )
Basically the T constantly produce out of 6 structures on 1 base and win with 1 push because of the cost effectiveness. I've tried just about every build out there and only timed 2VR seem to work (if he scouts and gets vikings ur dead though...). HT is too slow and if he goes cloak ur dead. FE and he would 2raven walkover me. Robo and u cant stop banshees. IMO way to hard to deal with, you need a perfect composition/micro/probe pull, or u lose to either marine or banshee.
You lose about ~4000 army resources more then T by using gateway units when he chooses to push. (wtf...?)
Any other build he does atleast i feel like i have a chance or it was my fault for losing but this build is just &%#@ing op ;D
Maybe somewhat biased simply because i always lose to this :<
Really need a easier way to stop this or semipro people to comment on how to counter this
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I farmed my way to 900 diamond on protoss with banshee/marine+raven with like a 90% win rate.
So far the only time I've lost is when I played kind of badly and the protoss does purely stalker/phoenix build, I played like a moron and didn't base trade while he had 2 bases though so that might be the reason.
Also terrans have a CC ready by the 11th minute mark for most timing pushes, even with 2 starports + 2 barracks(1reactor/1lab) he can get a new expo .
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I am currently at 1300 diamond as protoss and i have to say this build sucks -.-
After u've seen 4-5 marines on the ramp, u can't be for sure that he doesn't go for one port cloaked banshees only for harass. So u have to build a robotics. Lets say u opened with gate, gate, robotics. When your first observer is in his base, u'll problably gonna see the second starport starting to build. So what now?
1. stalker+colossi -> problem: pdd, if u dont have enough stalker bashees will kill u, if u build more stalker u have to delay colossi due to gas lack. he could focus down the colossi with banshees while pdd still has effect or bring some marauders with the next attack.
2. zealot+stalker+pheonix -> by the time u throw down your stargate, the second starport is already building, so when he pushs out u have about 3-4 pheonix. If the terran chooses to, they melt down to marines instantly, u'll end up with luck 2 banshees killed and no pheonix. so what do u do for the next attack? he'll come with 2 or 4 more banshees.
3. HT tech -> again, by the time u scout this build, your twilight c. is problably not even building. u have to invest 500/500 more to have storm without amulet. if he pushs out too early or skips the raven he kicks u, because u skipped so many units for tech.
I am not saying that this build is impossible to beat. If u stick to one base u could defend quite well, but if u do that too long he could expand or resarch cloak and use banshees for harass. If u expand early and he pushs out after the 4. or 6. banshee u probably won't hold your expansion.
In the early game this build is much more cost effective than any protoss build. That is for sure. The only real counter are Ht, which needs a lot of time and resources for tech. Keep in mind that your first tech structure has to be the robotics! But a build cannot be op, it is always a unit. I dont know, in my opinion the banshee has either too much dps or hp, they kill stalker too easy...
If anyone has some replays against good terrans, how to hold this build, that would be great. Or perhaps any terrans could tell us some weakpoints they fear? :D
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I can confirm that timed 2 Void Ray works very well against this build. I was messing around with some Void Ray use vs Terran as opposed to my usual 2 Gate 1 Robo build and I noticed that every time Terran went for Marine/Banshee/Raven they would get destroyed by it.
I haven't used much Void Rays out of boredom, but this Terran build has been destroying my standard build meant to do well against MMM so I think when I send my Stalker to poke their wall I'll build a Starport instead of Robo.
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My banshee/marine push makes use of 2 reactor barracks, void rays are usually an easy kill for me, especially cause their expense means the protoss defense is going to be really gimp.
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i experienced this build earlier today and i was able to stop it initially. what i did was as soon as i spotted the marine / banshee build i put down 2 stargates and pumped out around 5 phoenixes. made mostly zealots, and with some help from my probes i was able to stop the push.
http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/4273
don't mind what happens after the first push because i did a couple of stupid things which led to my loss XD
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well that was quite good, but the terran player even didn't get stim in his first push. If he had, your forcefield would have trapped fewer marines outside and your probe defense wouldn't have killed a single marine. Furthermore he didn't micro at all. if he would have, he could have won with the first push.
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On October 03 2010 22:41 Entr0py wrote:
well that was quite good, but the terran player even didn't get stim in his first push. If he had, your forcefield would have trapped fewer marines outside and your probe defense wouldn't have killed a single marine. Furthermore he didn't micro at all. if he would have, he could have won with the first push.
Can't get stim that early with double reactor, also no medivacs. The stim/shields comes after the first assault and when expos are up.
Yeah I played pretty half assed being force field splitted and still pushing on like that, I just got used to a-moving to victory and winning 95% of my games with marine/banshee vs protoss, I just consider it a free win.
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just bumping this because terrans have (apparently/obviously) refined this build and my old "get phoenixes ASAP when you see banshee-play" simply doesn't seem to work anymore
does ANYBODY has nice, possibly pro, replays that show how to play against this when the terran really knows what he is doing? if I survive the initial push I'm usually fine because in (later) midgame I get charge-lots which are pure ownage vs the marines, the marines die way faster than the banshees can kill the zealots; nevertheless I don't seem to be able to stop the initial push with just a few banshees (2-3), one raven and mass-marines; since the army is so marine-heavy phoenixes aren't very effective, zealots in low numbers without charge are bad vs marine/banshee in general, and stalkers fail vs the "wtf you can't hit me, stupid" PDD; no imbalance QQ here, serious advice appreciated
EDIT: maybe open with phoenix when "assuming" a 1/1/1 by default instead of robo? because then I would have the possibility to harass raven/banshees really early and at least keep T on his toes to protect both scv's and production facilities
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The terran will know what build you're doing(or hiding) by the ol' flying factory.
They'll see if you are delaying robo in favor of council/stargate.
As for the actual strat to counter em, beats me.
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I've recently played a P that went for a very quick stalker poke, trading stalkers for marines at my wall and then followed up with Phoenixes which arrived at around the time my first raven popped. So I had Phoenixes lingering around my ecoline and trying to snipe my air units that I had to chase down with lower than normal marine numbers (without stim, so he could've kited me all day long). I could not move out and subsequently failed to transition properly and lost the game in the long run.
So, YMMV, but P going Phoenix shut down my Marine/Raven/Banshee build
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The terran has a vulnerable spot at the 7 minute mark or so, this is when the starports are just readied and the reactor was finished.
If you can somehow beat 8 marines in 2 bunkers in what forces you could get at 7 mins you might beat him.
After that the banshees will come non-stop from 2 starports every 40 seconds and the reactor rax will also go non-stop. A full saturated main will support 2 port banshee and 2 reactor barracks and supply depots all the way.
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On October 06 2010 18:53 Lightspeed wrote:
I've recently played a P that went for a very quick stalker poke, trading stalkers for marines at my wall
tried this but I always fail hard vs bunker - my opponents usually fly the rax back and put a bunker in the middle...scv's for repair are easily pulled and one bunker full of marines is enough to repel any early poking
of course if he just "tried" to harass me instead...then I could easily go for a trade-off...but most terrans aren't that stupid nowadays, sadly
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I rarely do the marine/banshee build anymore because most 1900+ diamond toss players already know how to spot this and properly counter it with their fast expansion builds.
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EPT
