|
On October 01 2010 06:51 Woozyman wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2010 06:40 az2 wrote:
I do this build sometimes when I pull this matchup (im a random ~1250 diamond player if it matters) and I move out before my second banshee arrives so it can catch up by the time i hit their base. I just checked my last replay where i did this and that happens around 9:30.
At that point i have 1 raven, 2 banshee, 8 marauder 20 marine.
So far I have yet to lose when employing this strategy. If I were the protoss I would just stop making stalkers, FF perfectly, go speedlot, sentry, collosus. Maybe focusing the PDD with sentry would work then you could still use stalkers? It seems very hard to stop. See this is an example of a good post with good insight. He is basically telling me I can do this banshee/marine/raven and hit at 9min 30 sec w/ 2 banshees. Whereas my opponent hit me with 5 banshees, 1 raven, 17 marines at 10min 20 sec.So if more terrans are willing to post and tell me you've tried banshee/marine/raven and specify u hit at what time and how many banshees then I get a better understanding of timing and how to handle. That way I can keep analyzing data and see how many HTS i need, corners I need to cut. Or scrap HTS and go phoenix play if after intensive research I conclude HTS storm fails.
Oh so it was a 2port 2 techlab o_o maybe you could have mentioned that
|
I was replying to the other posters more than your original post, sorry. I understand you don't want to scrap your entire build, that makes sense. Unfortunetly without a replay its hard to give you specific advice about your build. From my limited expirience (mid diamond ) any templar tech is to slow to hold the push. iEchoic's build is designed to hit before you can tech to templar. If you rush it you don't have the units to hold it, even with the storm. I played against a guy who rushed templar tech but he just didn't have the gas for templars, storm tech, observer, and units.
Edit. -I can't give you an exact time because I am not at home at the moment, but from my memory I generally hit at about 10 minutes with 13-17 marines and 5 banshee's. I generally don't get the raven, its awesome but it slows the push.
Double edit all the way!!11 - You should look up iEchoic's post about his build in this forum. There are a bunch of replays attached to it. You could pick up some decent timings from those.
|
On October 01 2010 06:09 BrTarolg wrote:
His build is definately an all in because his expansion comes REALLY late
There is a troubling trend in the communtiy of calling things "all-in". A one base timing attack is not all-in. If it was, the terran would bring all his workers to make sure it killed you. It does have a kinda late expansion, which is a small risk if you do NO damage but it's certainly not insurmountable. Of course we don't have a replay so we don't know whether it was all-in or he just didn't have a follow-up planned or what. If the attack is one raven, 2-4 banshees, and stim marines then it is definitely scary but nowhere near all-in.
|
Yep 2 tech lab and by the time he pushed with that army at 10min 20 sec he was doing a command center 391hp out of 1500 completed.
|
On October 01 2010 06:58 Senorcuidado wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2010 06:09 BrTarolg wrote:
His build is definately an all in because his expansion comes REALLY late There is a troubling trend in the communtiy of calling things "all-in". A one base timing attack is not all-in. If it was, the terran would bring all his workers to make sure it killed you. It does have a kinda late expansion, which is a small risk if you do NO damage but it's certainly not insurmountable. Of course we don't have a replay so we don't know whether it was all-in or he just didn't have a follow-up planned or what. If the attack is one raven, 2-4 banshees, and stim marines then it is definitely scary but nowhere near all-in.
Uhm ok let me clarify
If i go 1 gate fast expand after the first stalker and recieve ZERO pressure until his push comes (so i get maximum econ benefit), i will be WAY ahead in econ and my army will be about 30% greater in supply
However, when he does his push, this doesnt matter as i get COMPLETELY crushed if i dont pull probes because of the cost effectiveness of terrans
I estimate that to beat a 20 rine 4 banshee 2 raven push you need at least 50% larger army or smth stupid
If terran add's SCV's, then you can pretty much GG as you will have to pull both main and natural probes to defend this.
I say this is imbalanced because its unfair how even with an econ and army advantage, this push is so strong it will beat armies significantly larger than it due to cost effectiveness (and its not like its immobile and you have to seige up, you have cloaked banshees and stimmed marines)
Ok you wanna see how imbalanced this is? Just did tests
Terran has 25 marines, 5 banshees, 2 ravens (energy for 2pdd) (no cloak on banshee)
Protoss has 12 zealots 18 stalkers 1 sentry (guardian shield)
Thats 2350 minerals 700 gas 47 supply for terran
Thats 3500 minerals 1000 gas 65 supply for protoss
Guess who wins?
Terran
With 3 banshees and 7 marines left
And this doesnt even take into account that if you lose your obs you die to cloak
Now tell me this is balanced
To get protoss to win i had to give him 3900 minerals and 1200 gas totalling 72 supply, 4 stalkers left
|
That's a terrible way to test units. You can't just look at cost, there are other factors at work, there is tech, build times etc. Hell 1 banshee will beat 100000 minerals of zealots.
As an aside from that, if the Terran takes the time to get two ravens, 5 banshee's and a bunch of marines you should have a lot more than stalker's zealots and sentries. You could have just about anything you want at that point including a huge eco advantage.
|
On October 01 2010 08:58 BrTarolg wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2010 06:58 Senorcuidado wrote:On October 01 2010 06:09 BrTarolg wrote:
His build is definately an all in because his expansion comes REALLY late There is a troubling trend in the communtiy of calling things "all-in". A one base timing attack is not all-in. If it was, the terran would bring all his workers to make sure it killed you. It does have a kinda late expansion, which is a small risk if you do NO damage but it's certainly not insurmountable. Of course we don't have a replay so we don't know whether it was all-in or he just didn't have a follow-up planned or what. If the attack is one raven, 2-4 banshees, and stim marines then it is definitely scary but nowhere near all-in. Uhm ok let me clarify If i go 1 gate fast expand after the first stalker and recieve ZERO pressure until his push comes (so i get maximum econ benefit), i will be WAY ahead in econ and my army will be about 30% greater in supply However, when he does his push, this doesnt matter as i get COMPLETELY crushed if i dont pull probes because of the cost effectiveness of terrans I estimate that to beat a 20 rine 4 banshee 2 raven push you need at least 50% larger army or smth stupid If terran add's SCV's, then you can pretty much GG as you will have to pull both main and natural probes to defend this. I say this is imbalanced because its unfair how even with an econ and army advantage, this push is so strong it will beat armies significantly larger than it due to cost effectiveness (and its not like its immobile and you have to seige up, you have cloaked banshees and stimmed marines)
Ok you wanna see how imbalanced this is? Just did tests
Terran has 25 marines, 5 banshees, 2 ravens (energy for 2pdd) (no cloak on banshee)
Protoss has 12 zealots 18 stalkers 1 sentry (guardian shield)
Thats 2350 minerals 700 gas 47 supply for terran
Thats 3500 minerals 1000 gas 65 supply for protoss
Guess who wins?
Terran
With 3 banshees and 7 marines left
And this doesnt even take into account that if you lose your obs you die to cloak
Now tell me this is balanced
To get protoss to win i had to give him 3900 minerals and 1200 gas totalling 72 supply, 4 stalkers left
Well that doesn't really make a case for whether or not the Terran is going all-in or not, but regardless...if you can't beat something don't call it imbalanced. Micro and unit composition matters. I also don't know the circumstances of your "test" but going 1a into a high tech army with all t1 isn't exactly conclusive. Besides, add high temps into the mix and then start talking about cost effectiveness. Are colossi op because they roast a million marines? Of course not. It doesnt matter if terran is imba or not. Practice > complaining
I'm not gonna argue balance in this thread. The strategy forum is not the place for balance discussions, that's in the forum guidelines that I linked earlier (that also require help threads to have replays). I was just trying to say that marine banshee is not all-in.
|
This is essentially Polt's timing attack he used on scrap station in the GSL. once you scout with your obs you need to drop a stargate pump out some phoenix get a nice mix of everything else and you should be able to hold it off. Phoenix are extremely strong against Terran, taking out banshee's, vikings, picking up tanks. It's amazing that Toss don't use them more.
|
if it's just like 2 banshees
chargelots. lots and lots of chargelots. then just enough stalkers to beat the banshees.
u want to engage away from your own base somewhat, so that when he lays down the PDD u wipe his ground army out with chargelots, then run back. if banshees follow thats when u kill them with stalkers.
if he has 2 ports up... you basically have to get phoenixes in my experience.
|
Woozy no one can help you without a replay so if you want help post a replay.
|
There is a good chance the Banshees kill several probes which puts you behind. You are forced to get stalkers. Stalkers can deal with the Banshee fairly well and scare them off. 2 minutes later you have 20 marines 1 raven and 4 banshees in your base. the defense drone creates time for the marines to rape everything before you can do anything. If the enemy scouts you going HT he throws in a couple ghosts and I look like a complete idiot only killing about 4 of his marines. It feels like it takes a terran a skill of 7 to use this tactic well and the protoss has to be a skill 9.5 to even survive the first push. I don't get how it's possible to stop.
|
On October 01 2010 08:58 BrTarolg wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2010 06:58 Senorcuidado wrote:On October 01 2010 06:09 BrTarolg wrote:
His build is definately an all in because his expansion comes REALLY late There is a troubling trend in the communtiy of calling things "all-in". A one base timing attack is not all-in. If it was, the terran would bring all his workers to make sure it killed you. It does have a kinda late expansion, which is a small risk if you do NO damage but it's certainly not insurmountable. Of course we don't have a replay so we don't know whether it was all-in or he just didn't have a follow-up planned or what. If the attack is one raven, 2-4 banshees, and stim marines then it is definitely scary but nowhere near all-in. Uhm ok let me clarify If i go 1 gate fast expand after the first stalker and recieve ZERO pressure until his push comes (so i get maximum econ benefit), i will be WAY ahead in econ and my army will be about 30% greater in supply However, when he does his push, this doesnt matter as i get COMPLETELY crushed if i dont pull probes because of the cost effectiveness of terrans I estimate that to beat a 20 rine 4 banshee 2 raven push you need at least 50% larger army or smth stupid If terran add's SCV's, then you can pretty much GG as you will have to pull both main and natural probes to defend this. I say this is imbalanced because its unfair how even with an econ and army advantage, this push is so strong it will beat armies significantly larger than it due to cost effectiveness (and its not like its immobile and you have to seige up, you have cloaked banshees and stimmed marines)
Ok you wanna see how imbalanced this is? Just did tests
Terran has 25 marines, 5 banshees, 2 ravens (energy for 2pdd) (no cloak on banshee)
Protoss has 12 zealots 18 stalkers 1 sentry (guardian shield)
Thats 2350 minerals 700 gas 47 supply for terran
Thats 3500 minerals 1000 gas 65 supply for protoss
Guess who wins?
Terran
With 3 banshees and 7 marines left
And this doesnt even take into account that if you lose your obs you die to cloak
Now tell me this is balanced
To get protoss to win i had to give him 3900 minerals and 1200 gas totalling 72 supply, 4 stalkers left
lol u have yur values all wrong....
25 rines = 1250m
5 banshees = 500m 500g
2 ravens = 200m 400g
1950m 900g
2 rax 1tech 1 reactor= 400m 75g
ill assume they have stim = 100m 100g
terran can't support 2 rax w/ reactor pumping out rines while making ravens and banshees
factory costs 150m 100g
2 starports w/ tech = 400m 250g
u need at least 12-14 mins to get this amount out, im not that sure.
if u add cloak, then u add 200m and 200g to the count.
it will also slower his push or weaken his army because it takes too much gas for him to make an army like this.
in the time terran gets this, toss can get 1 or 2 colossus and mass blink stalkers which will kill his army easily.
in yur calculations, toss should have a bigger army because his units are all t1 that don't require tech.
just a side note, i don't think TvP is imba, the only imba is zerg loses against both toss and terran(more against terran than toss).
|
well it seems that you guys get only the light version of that built
normal you go for 1/1/1 built...
built asap 3-4 hellions and 1 medivac
then you drop
because you have at least 3 hellion you intant kill worker so
normaly you kill arround 8 or more of them
during that you built tech lab on starport and a 2nd starport with tech lap
1 raven 5 shees and from 2 barracks mass marines ....
the drop works good because your drop goes before the obs is outand scout the the medivac hellion 90% of the time
the only built that work against that is a void ray built with zealots and sentries
zealtoes +guardian shield = dead marines
no marines = no defence
he could built viking
but zealots+guradianshield > marines
and it mess up with the timing of banshees
|
I feel like all the people saying this is unstoppable are trying to fight it right outside their natural. You need to fight the push all the way to your base. Use the fact that stalkers can kite. Force him to PDD way before your base, then back off. Stall him basically. If he stims and chases your stalkers, thats a good thing, his rines get caught away from the PDD and banshees and get wiped out by zealots and good FFs. Alternately, you can just continue to back off and make him waste stims. Remember he doesn't have medevac's, so 1 stim is almost 1/5 his army's total HP. You need him to use PDD's and stims well before your base, so that once the push finally gets to you, the marines are all red health and the Ravens have no energy.
Really Protoss should fight ALL pushes like this, but thats a whole different discussion.
|
On October 01 2010 12:19 perser84 wrote:
well it seems that you guys get only the light version of that built
normal you go for 1/1/1 built...
built asap 3-4 hellions and 1 medivac
then you drop
because you have at least 3 hellion you intant kill worker so
normaly you kill arround 8 or more of them
during that you built tech lab on starport and a 2nd starport with tech lap
1 raven 5 shees and from 2 barracks mass marines ....
the drop works good because your drop goes before the obs is outand scout the the medivac hellion 90% of the time
the only built that work against that is a void ray built with zealots and sentries
zealtoes +guardian shield = dead marines
no marines = no defence
he could built viking
but zealots+guradianshield > marines
and it mess up with the timing of banshees
This has become extremely popular and any toss that's good has seen it 50x and will be ready to deal with it.
|
well true i mean i found out that built 3 weeks ago from a friend thats why there is another good built that crush toss like the shees marine built
i looking forward when it mention here
like i said void+zealots gurdianshield is the best vs terran
|
I use a 1/1/2 banshee marine build. The only things it will really lose too is early 4 gate pressure quick void rays can mess it up, and the right mix from the Protoss player. I think the mix has to be zealot, stalker, and phoenix. Too few zealots and the marines are free to kill anything, too few stalkers and the banshee cleans up the ground and will make the phoenix useless and yes there will need to be an observer in there too. I feel its a reverse 4 gate feeling for the Protoss player. A really strong mix where if you make a mistake its over and the build is easy to do. I feel the trick is to not loose the stalker to banshee ratio, what that is I dont know.
I push out with just the first 4 banshees that happens a bit after a scan of the protoss base for more scouting and a bit of harass. I want them to know I have banshee(if they dont all ready know with an observer). After that I make the decision about cloak or and raven based on scouting and unit mix. Tons of stalkers no raven the pdd will run out way to soon and one more banshee is better, no robo is cloak.
HT seem too defensive a unit storm does not do too much to the banshee and with feedback I will just make sure my banshees have no energy. And that lets me send 2-4 banshees on a probe or pylon hunt. Since there will be less units on the map. Cannons are good at first to keep the harassment down but when there are 6 banshees unless there a ton grouped up they will be destroyed.
The only draw back to it is that the expo is slow but most of the time that does not matter.
|
On October 01 2010 12:17 Zecias wrote:
u need at least 12-14 mins to get this amount out, im not that sure.
in the time terran gets this, toss can get 1 or 2 colossus and mass blink stalkers which will kill his army easily.
.
lol
Terran, 5 banshee, 1 raven, 25 marines
Protoss 18 stalkers 2 colossi
Terran 2100 minerals 700 gas 42 supply
Protoss 2850 minerals 1300 gas 48 supply
Guess who wins
Replay for the rough BO here (my timing is sloppy by about 10-15 seconds)
Terran actually gets 30 marines by this time, AND an expansion also
Pretty much the push is ready at 10 minutes.
http://www.mediafire.com/?zbze4p61527v1m1
Personally i am sick and tired of this build after so many practise games of it.
edit: on YABOT, if you 14 gate, expand after your FIRST stalker and play SUPER greedy (i.e have almost no army for the majority of the first 8 minutes so you would get completely rolled by any 3 rax)
You can get 2 colossi, 9 stalkers, 9 zealots and 2 sentries in time at 11 minutes
Oh, guess what that loses to.
|
Hey,
1450 Diamond EU Protoss here. (if it matters)
Been facing this build like.. 50% of the time, even on blistering sands i see it.
Now some of you say stargate - voidray counters this, and that is true but if he goes cloak your screwed, you cant really afford to get robo & obs while getting stalkers sentry & VR.
Do i think its op? yes, but thats mostly because there isnt a solid "counter" build yet.
some people were talking about blink stalker but i still dont know if thats gona be enough.
Guess im gona try that next time.
Tips to scout this build:
got rines inside a bunker blocking ramp.
has only marines (usually 4-5) at ramp early game.
2 stargate is 100% this build.
If anyone thinks of anything else feel free to share ,but you can be pretty sure there doing this build if they go heavy rines at start.
|
wow this yabot thing looks cool. The guy I played against was scarier as he made starport at 4min 30 sec and 2nd starport at 5 min 8 sec. At 10min 20 sec he had 5 banshee, 17 rines and 1 raven.
As for people saying 1/1/2 iechoic hellion drop, I am not worried about that. In fact I love it when terrans do that because it means their banshee/rine/raven timing push is delayed. I do well vs hellion drop, my concern is someone going straight for the timing push.
Well it's the weekend so I'll finally have the chance to play and test out. Hope hts storm asap works fine, I don't mind the phoenix suggestion as it is viable, but if hts storm works as well then yeeehaw!
*** I don't understand why real game time it's 10min 20 sec with 2 banshees 16 rines (btw where's the raven?) but top right timer it's 8min 36 sec!?!?
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
