EPTI'll be the first to admit when I get outplayed... but recently it's pretty obvious that the only time I win v P that goes Stalker/Immortal is when they are far worse than me. Anyone even close to my skill level can just a-move and win.
Terran vs Protoss - Page 22
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oxxo
988 Posts
I'll be the first to admit when I get outplayed... but recently it's pretty obvious that the only time I win v P that goes Stalker/Immortal is when they are far worse than me. Anyone even close to my skill level can just a-move and win. | ||
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WorkersOfTheWorld
United States619 Posts
On April 16 2010 14:29 oxxo wrote: Stalker/Immortal is ridiculously powerful. Stalkers need to be changed back to their goon style rather than good against everything style. Immortals need their damage bonus changed and/or shields need to be researched. Buildings need to have no type. I'll be the first to admit when I get outplayed... but recently it's pretty obvious that the only time I win v P that goes Stalker/Immortal is when they are far worse than me. Anyone even close to my skill level can just a-move and win. You should definitely read the rest of the thread. | ||
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Feefee
Canada556 Posts
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p1ng
Germany53 Posts
On April 16 2010 14:36 Feefee wrote: Yeah why is this thread still going strong with the nerf calls when it's already shown that that 4 rax fast expand works very well?^^; Someone should've closed this thing when it resolved the issue. Now it's burrowed amidst screams for nerfs of random units. Imho it doesnt work well. | ||
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NB
Netherlands12045 Posts
most of the time i lose to reaper since i cant get stalkers out in time when i thought it is an mnm psuh  ... also if he went 2~3 reapers and mass marines, with a decent micro marine and take out stalkers no problem T__T1 more thing is that i dont know when is a good time to switch between Immo to colo during mid game and when should i get zealot leg upgrade... another thinking is that its hard to use up all the corno boots when u switch to colo and slow down the gates production =.=... i tried to use them on upgrade but after 3rd base, they stack up a lot T__T currently fighting the mid-range of gold league so hope gosu-people can help me :D (weird, rarely see a zerg :-?) edit: @terran user: getting ghost early and mix them with handfull of MnM can rape any P army but u hv to emp precisely :D | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On April 16 2010 14:29 oxxo wrote: Stalker/Immortal is ridiculously powerful. Stalkers need to be changed back to their goon style rather than good against everything style. Immortals need their damage bonus changed and/or shields need to be researched. Buildings need to have no type. I'll be the first to admit when I get outplayed... but recently it's pretty obvious that the only time I win v P that goes Stalker/Immortal is when they are far worse than me. Anyone even close to my skill level can just a-move and win. hahahaha you're funny. you must be like the only guy on TL who thinks that stalkers are "good against everything" x]]] | ||
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oxxo
988 Posts
On April 16 2010 15:26 Ryuu314 wrote: hahahaha you're funny. you must be like the only guy on TL who thinks that stalkers are "good against everything" x]]] They aren't. But they are decent against most. Nothing like goons. There was no reason for them to move away from being good vs armored and meh vs others. | ||
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Feefee
Canada556 Posts
On April 16 2010 15:21 NB wrote: my only problem in this matchup (im P) is that most of the time i cant scout if he is going reaper or MnM timing push or FE. most of the time i lose to reaper since i cant get stalkers out in time when i thought it is an mnm psuh ... also if he went 2~3 reapers and mass marines, with a decent micro marine and take out stalkers no problem T__T1 more thing is that i dont know when is a good time to switch between Immo to colo during mid game and when should i get zealot leg upgrade... another thinking is that its hard to use up all the corno boots when u switch to colo and slow down the gates production =.=... i tried to use them on upgrade but after 3rd base, they stack up a lot T__T currently fighting the mid-range of gold league so hope gosu-people can help me :D (weird, rarely see a zerg :-?) edit: @terran user: getting ghost early and mix them with handfull of MnM can rape any P army but u hv to emp precisely :D I'm not the most awesomest platinum out there but I've dabbled in toss and terran at least so maybe I can at least attempt to say something useful: Most protoss build a stalker for their first attack unit after going 1 gate core (chrono boosted). That one stalker will completely shut down 1 2 or even 3 reapers (but you can build a second one too). You really won't die to an MnM push even if you don't build an initial zealot. Switching from immortal to colossus I usually do when I see the terran go ghost. Regardless of what some terrans say, they do counter immortals fairly hard and while you might hold them off it's certainly not your best choice. I'm surprised you find it hard to spend chrono boost once you switch to colossus! One colossus takes like 3 boosts before it completes. Plus you need to boost the thermal lance upgrade (that one's a must) so I find I never have enough to be honest. | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On April 16 2010 15:36 oxxo wrote: They aren't. But they are decent against most. Nothing like goons. There was no reason for them to move away from being good vs armored and meh vs others. Are you serious? You must be trolling. Goons did 20 explosive damage. Meaning 10 to small units and 20 to large units and 15 damage to medium units. They get +2 per attack upgrade. Goons had 80 shield 100 health. They raped mech units and lurkers and were very good support for zealots and everything else in every single matchup. They were never completely raped by anything except maybe mass zerglings and other T1 units in mass. Stalkers do 10 base damage with +4 against armored. They only get +1 per attack upgrade (which is not applied to bonus damage). They have 80 shield and 80 health. They rape...nothing, except maybe reapers. They get raped by...everything. Except corruptors. But only because it can't shoot them. There is absolutely nothing the stalker can do that the dragoon can't except for blink. In my opinion, dragoons are better than stalkers in every way except for their shitty AI and the inability to blink. Admittedly once blink is researched stalkers become pretty useful but you're going to have a hell of a hard time convincing most people on here that stalkers>dragoons. And I'm pretty sure a good portion of the Protoss players would love it if they replaced the stalker with the dragoon (assuming it gets an AI update, lol). | ||
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Feefee
Canada556 Posts
On April 16 2010 15:36 oxxo wrote: They aren't. But they are decent against most. Nothing like goons. There was no reason for them to move away from being good vs armored and meh vs others. Are you kidding?^^; The reason they were made better vs non-armored was that 3 stalkers couldn't take out a mutalisk for the life of them. That change was absolutely neccessary. 100 gas sentries were not sustainable against a muta harass. | ||
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teekesselchen
Germany886 Posts
To draw a comparison to BW: Terran were able to play mech. However, gateway units were strong. The big point is, Terra has ranged units whereas those incredibly strong zealots all blocked each other and couldn't get a lot of units into attacking position because it was 2d with kinda huge collision boxes plus the maybe worst pathfinding ever seen in a game. Now all units stack closely together what makes especially the previously clumpy mass of gateway units a compact dense cluster that can all attack at the same time. Not only you can't outmicro that with units such as marines (or marauders without slow), they also took away mech totally by making hellions a super slow shooting not microable unit and giving protoss the immortal, what's like the very icon of hard countering - against EVERYTHING that would give terran a shot against just t1/1.5 gateway unit. Oh just one thing to add for those "just build thor-guys": I tryed it for some time. It was successful against bad players. Then, I met an acceptable player. As Toss has his very own cheap maphack in form of an observer (I think observers are perfectly fine, just the rest of Toss isn't) he sees "oh, he goes thors." A minute later when I try to push, he has 5 Immortals. When he arrives at my base in a counter attack, he has 8 immortals. I ask him "You really only have one robotics?". Only got a "lol" out of him, ofc he only has one robotics. 40s buildtime plus chronoboost plus superhardcounter solves. Thor doesn't even half way finish his 250mm cannon strike. Most don't get to the animation part when the actual damage is dealt. They die before. One thing to remember: They have 400 HP and die to a unit that should be some kind of tanking unit within milliseconds. | ||
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WorkersOfTheWorld
United States619 Posts
On April 16 2010 16:12 T33K3SS3LCH3N wrote: Actually I'm kinda surprised blizzard didn't see this coming. To draw a comparison to BW: Terran were able to play mech. However, gateway units were strong. The big point is, Terra has ranged units whereas those incredibly strong zealots all blocked each other and couldn't get a lot of units into attacking position because it was 2d with kinda huge collision boxes plus the maybe worst pathfinding ever seen in a game. Now all units stack closely together what makes especially the previously clumpy mass of gateway units a compact dense cluster that can all attack at the same time. Not only you can't outmicro that with units such as marines (or marauders without slow), they also took away mech totally by making hellions a super slow shooting not microable unit and giving protoss the immortal, what's like the very icon of hard countering - against EVERYTHING that would give terran a shot against just t1/1.5 gateway unit. Except we saw last patch just how screwy that balance got (i'm talking t1-1.5) with just one ability (concussive shells) being default vs. this patch where it is cheap research. You can't just revert the nerf to marauders (if anything they still need more nerfs, espcially if the immortal is to take a hit soon) and call it balanced. As for the t2 immortal, we've seen builds here that counter the immortal push, which is timed for the immo to shine right before being eclipsed by lots of stim marauders. What happens when they eliminate that gap? Do we return again to the patch-7 era of marauder piles running over protoss players because immortals only come out in significant numbers AFTER they're out-damage by stim marauders? I think it's a really nasty situation with no simple "nerf this one unit" fix. Theres plenty of theory in here about toss t3 running amuck with terran players, but honestly, where have we seen this? FF and Colossai were used a lot last patch just for toss to remain relevant, but even that was loosing games to well-played marauder mass. Going to the air just isn't something toss are capable of right now, and even if it were the Viking handily defeats protoss air. So what happens when/if mech becomes a very generally viable counter to gateway units and robo counters are not as effective? I don't think that leaves the toss with much to go on, but I suppose the next patch will make whatever changes it will and we will all adapt accordingly. | ||
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swu.swu
United States12 Posts
If neither works. I GG-Quit when I see 1 Gate Robo in my base. | ||
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BabelFish
United States14 Posts
On April 16 2010 08:47 DeMusliM wrote: It did seem like he lost a few units needlessly, trying to break down that bunker wall. If he had attempted to contain you and teched with an expo, do you think you could have put pressure on him early enough?Game 2 - he scouted the wrong way so he saw my base last, meaning he didn't know what i was doing until it was abit too late - quite unlucky for him, and i dare say if he played this again he wouldn't go 2-3 gateway rush and rather tech up to collosus/HT's with an expo. | ||
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WorkersOfTheWorld
United States619 Posts
On April 16 2010 17:36 BabelFish wrote: It did seem like he lost a few units needlessly, trying to break down that bunker wall. If he had attempted to contain you and teched with an expo, do you think you could have put pressure on him early enough? I think the operative question is: When will he be playing against a comparably skilled protoss opponent so we can see this without the glaring flaws in P's play. | ||
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MorroW
Sweden3522 Posts
On April 16 2010 14:36 Feefee wrote: Yeah why is this thread still going strong with the nerf calls when it's already shown that that 4 rax fast expand works very well?^^; Someone should've closed this thing when it resolved the issue. Now it's burrowed amidst screams for nerfs of random units. it doesnt work well. its not a solid straight up strategy. it has many hard counters and i thought we established that by now ;/ | ||
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mfukar
Greece41 Posts
On April 16 2010 18:00 MorroW wrote: it doesnt work well. its not a solid straight up strategy. it has many hard counters and i thought we established that by now ;/ So you are looking for an unbeatable opening strategy? | ||
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teekesselchen
Germany886 Posts
On April 16 2010 18:00 MorroW wrote: it doesnt work well. its not a solid straight up strategy. it has many hard counters and i thought we established that by now ;/ As you already wrote: On April 16 2010 00:44 MorroW wrote: sc1 worked in the way that it was possible to scout and it was possible to react to it [...] it was possible to scout each other and it was possible to comeback from a disadvantage. hell anything was possible in sc1 thats how it was so brilliant. in sc2 u cant do shit in theory and if u disagree i guess u just didnt play enough games or analyse enough to find this out :< There just is no standard safe build because you can't ever be safe against certain other builds. It's just rock-paper-scissors with builds/tactics. Few executional skills required. No possiblity of having a build that gives one a default defense that is strong enough to respond to most things your opponent could do without crippling one so much that it's impossible to ever actually leave the base and win a fight. Really, the lack of possibilities to delay the opponent and defend your base breaks the game. Need high ground advantage, stronger or cheaper tanks, Mines etc. I think there was some korean post from a guy who said "gosh, who choose this idiot for game design, he mixed it all up with command and conquer.". He was so right. The other major issue you adressed is that there can't be any turnarounds anymore, another thing caused by the absolute lack of defense that is more effective than offensively used units. On April 16 2010 18:39 mfukar wrote: So you are looking for an unbeatable opening strategy? I'm sure he doesn't. People are looking for a standard build that is flexible to respond to your opponent and gives you a defense that has the ability of stopping standards from pwning you. The whole point is, the opening strategy should not be unbeatable, it should be executable in a way that makes it possibly to survive against most possible tactics. | ||
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mfukar
Greece41 Posts
On April 16 2010 18:40 T33K3SS3LCH3N wrote: I'm sure he doesn't. People are looking for a standard build that is flexible to respond to your opponent and gives you a defense that has the ability of stopping standards from pwning you. The whole point is, the opening strategy should not be unbeatable, it should be executable in a way that makes it possibly to survive against most possible tactics. I'm sure he doesn't, either. However, both he and everyone else in "TvP is broken zomg" threads act and type like they are. The solution is simple: post your opinion on the b.net boards, post it here, make your argument, Blizzard will read it and if they think you're right, they will fix it somehow. If they don't, only time will prove their complaints right. That, or they'll accept they suck..eventually. I don't see why we have to perpetuate an argument that neither side is willing to prove (even when a replay is posted, we turn the audience's attention to the "glaring flaws" in human play...hypocritical to say the least). | ||
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lew
Belgium205 Posts
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