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Hmm, it does seems a bit broken :S
I'm a Protoss Gold Division EU player and my last 5 games vs Terrans were all totally dominated victories.
Even if the Terran goes proxy rax into Reaper harass, all I gotta do is hang in there, while my 1st Stalker pops out. By that time I can loose like a probe or two. After that point it's pretty much game over for him. Add a 2nd gate, expo quickly, get forge, research +1 attack, Robo, add 2 more gates and ... A-move right into his base.
If he goes for the more standard game plan of 3/4 rax into expo, it just seems to make the game last longer, but it ends up in a very similar fashion.
I'm not big fan of Immortals or Colossi, but I tend to throw in few in the mix, just for fun. I rely mainly on gateway units and they seems to do the job just perfectly.
I think Terrans are missing something in the TvP picture. Not sure what it is thou. Maybe 1 base Hellions after the initial 3 rax ? I don't see hellions getting used at all. Sure Immortals pwn them, but they are pretty good meat shield for the MnM ball vs Zealots. And every decent protoss player should have about 10-12 Zealots with Charge when he thinks about moving out to cripple the Terran.
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The matchup is a huge problem, because Protoss is so very flexible early on in the game. They have many abilities which allow them to screw up Terran strategies and the Sentry with Forcefield and Guardian Shield is the major offender here. Both of these are nice, but both used in conjunction with the Immortal pretty much let the skill of the Protoss decide the outcome of a battle. If the Protoss scouts the Terran well enough and knows where and when to place his Forcefields the Terran is lost. Immortals just demolish Terran defensive structures, so they are almost useless; the same goes for any Factory units. Added to this is the almost instant replacement of Stalkers and Zealots at the front, due to Warp Gate and Chrono Boost stacking.
Protoss love to say that the Ghost counters the Immortal, but it is very easy to screw up that counter by simply running away (Forcefield blocks pursuit) and regenerating the Shields before attacking again. (*1) EMP costs 75 energy and getting that much takes far longer than regenerating the Shields of an Immortal. If you spread out your Immortals you also need more than one Ghost with 75 energy and rushing that tech will eat into your other research and army size, since they cost 150 Gas after all. Apart from reducing shields the Ghost does not kill Immortals very well.
Zerg dont have that many problems against Protoss, because they have pretty strong light units and they can survive with a simpler unit composition mad up of only 1 or 2 different types. Terrans need a mix of units to be good and its easy enough for Protoss to isolate a critical component. Thats why TvP is so fragile. So I would definetely think some of the Protoss should calm down and try to see their own huge advantage in the early game now instead of declaring that a solution has been found. Let the Terrans solve this problem ... unless you want to give advice.
(*1) Question: How much damage does an Immortal with 1 Shield get from a Sieged Tank?
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why every marauder's only terran and linge/mutas or hyds only zerg is crying about protoss ?
may you guys trying out some different units ? maybe then you will have a chance vs the 1400point platin protoss'
loled
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open fe with planet fortress..unless toss go heavy immortal..gateway units won't be able to kill that sucker -,-
only immortal can do any damage to PF...
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On April 17 2010 01:06 VoodooDog wrote:
why every marauder's only terran and linge/mutas or hyds only zerg is crying about protoss ?
may you guys trying out some different units ? maybe then you will have a chance vs the 1400point platin protoss'
loled
Did you read all 24 pages of the topic ? Stop trolling please
Regard
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On April 16 2010 21:08 Skyze wrote:
Uh wrong. I am just saying people like YOU who are bitching terran are imbalanced, are fucking idiots who need to learn how to dissect your replays, think of new strats and playing good instead of blaming all your losses on imbalances.
If you are gonna bitch about protoss's being imbalanced, then stop being a fag and insulting others because you suck too bad to learn how to counter a simple strat, and actually LEARN TO COUNTER THE STRAT. Its not like you are playing in leagues, your playing newbs on the ladder, if you are still losing to protoss then you are just plain horrible.
you should really go learn some manners, your posts are full of biggoted shit and nonse, flames and whatnot, you dont seem to know who you are talking too or what you are talking about either.
You also read way to much into the whine in this thread, there will always be whine in a thread that tries to make sense of a certain matchup, deal with it or dont read the thread, you seem really stupid tbh  you prolly will respond to this with more flames instead of learning from it, which maybe makes me the idiot for even taking time out of my not so busy schedule to reply to your BM posts.
fact its a beta, which by defenition is imbalanced, this thread is NOT complaining about the matchup but trying to make sense of it (imbalance or not), can you please realize this? and filter out the whine ??? or are you just so personally insulted when someone thinks your race is OP.
just stfu or gtfo if you dont have something constructive to say is basiclly what im trying to say...
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On April 17 2010 01:15 The6357 wrote:
open fe with planet fortress..unless toss go heavy immortal..gateway units won't be able to kill that sucker -,-
only immortal can do any damage to PF...
PF only works on LT and Metalopolis. Any other map they can get around it, even with the range upgrade, pretty easily. It's also a big investment and hurts your ability to get return on your expansion in a timely manner by sacrificing a 2nd MULE. It also costs a lot of gas and to get it fast enough means you're cutting tech and units, making you extremely vulnerable to void rays or drops/warp-ins. PF FE just doesn't work out so well
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It seems that this entire thread hinges on the fact that it is a human right to be able to FE safely.
What is the question?
Can a Terran defend a 1-base timing attack
-or -
Can a Terran defend a 1 base timing attack while fast expanding?
If it is the first case, then there is a problem. If it is the latter case, then I am not sure that is the intention from Blizzard, though that is anyone's guess at this point.
At the end of the day, the issue is probably more along the lines that in order to defend Terran must make some choices that will enable Protoss to be at an advantage from that point on.
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I haven't read all of the posts in this thread so this might have been suggested already. But how about going a banshee rush to force him to go stalkers. then you can have a marauder army as back up to deal with his stalkers. The banshees will keep him from being able to go too much immortal/colossus which is the biggest problem for the marauders. Getting cloak early will also force him to use gas on obs and if you get a couple vikings+scanner sweeps on them you can keep his ground army pretty well contained.
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I wish someone (with a lot of credibility) made a thread (ONLY for people with a lot of credibility) where they can discuss balance issues and actually agree on issues that MUST be addressed and propose changes that MUST be made...
Otherwise it's scattered ALL OVER TL and other websites and when you read a thing in one thread and think it's a good idea, a week later in another thread you read WHY it won't work... so it's hard to sum it all up.
So I'm calling out all of our HIGH LEVEL players/TL Staff to actually make something happen!!! Get together and have a damn conference! xD I really don't feel the need to name people specifically since I don't even know all of them but I'm sure TL Staff will know who I'm talking about... maybe even arrange a meeting with Blizz or something (or a chat, whatever's clever) and see where they are on balancing things... I know a guy that works for them and also runs SC2/Diablo3 fansites... I can talk to him about it and MAYBE we can get our voices heard through him. =)
Who wants the game to be released just to be patched 500 times after? Let's get as much as we can done, while we're still in BETA!!!
PS: I'm not aware of everything that's going on with TL & SC2. If I'm proposing something that's been done (or has been brought up before), I apologize... I also apologize for posting in "bold", I just felt like this needs to be seen! Don't be too harsh on me =)
If you think I'm better off PM'n someone instead of posting these motivational speeches (LOL) please tell me who do I have to write to?
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wtf?! Double post... sorry sorry
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I won against a midrange platinum protoss by doing the 4 rax FE, but on scrapstation, but I built my CC at the edge of my base, floating it over the destructable rocks and proceeded to make a plantary fortress under his ramp, it was hella fun to watch him squirm, ofcourse I had rallied all my units there and several scvs, and as soon as PF was finished upgrading I built more scvs to repair and build depots in annoying places, it was retarded but fun, he went the warpprism route but I expected as much and he could never get it close to my base because I had two vikings patrolling the 'coast' :D also I did the armor upgrade for PF !!!! do not knock the offensive capabilities of the PF =)
Also whenever he wasnt pushing out trying to kill off my PF I was killing the rocks on his side of the map while I had one marauder shooting the rocks from my side, so eventually the distance was very short between my base and his choke.
edit: once the PF was up I didnt need to pump units so madly anymore ,I just teched up to vikings quickly and expanded the gold minerals.
ofc this only worked because he was so surprised by it and did panic a bit, this should never work , do not try this at home kids=)
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On April 17 2010 01:50 Louder wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2010 01:15 The6357 wrote:
open fe with planet fortress..unless toss go heavy immortal..gateway units won't be able to kill that sucker -,-
only immortal can do any damage to PF... PF only works on LT and Metalopolis. Any other map they can get around it, even with the range upgrade, pretty easily. It's also a big investment and hurts your ability to get return on your expansion in a timely manner by sacrificing a 2nd MULE. It also costs a lot of gas and to get it fast enough means you're cutting tech and units, making you extremely vulnerable to void rays or drops/warp-ins. PF FE just doesn't work out so well
It also sorta works on Steppes. But regardless, 1 prism = gg if you went for PF. It's a joke. I guess you could go PF + turrets but then you've spent so much money on turtling that you're out an army. By the time you build one protoss probably will have outmacro'd you considerably.
I need to try more 2 fact based play because I think it's actually somewhat viable. I want to practice it vs a really good protoss, not ladder randos, before I draw any conclusions.
As for this 4 rax FE weirdness, I'll see if I can get some terrans to do this vs me in practice games. I want to prove my suspicions that coli drop + warpin beats it. It's possible I'll be proven wrong though =P
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With the right positioning Siege-Tank/Marine into Fast Expand is viable (not on Desert Oasis and Scrap Station of course)
I'm talking about Plat 1800-2000 here
If it is different on the very top-level, then i'm sorry, but on that level it appears to be a very solid build
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Watch the games in my thread. It is not a viable strategy off 1 rax 1 fact.
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1 rax 1 fac is too less
You need an reactor for double marine production and build techlab at rax to switch fac there, since having one tank more or less is crucial
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On April 17 2010 02:42 Wilko wrote:
1 rax 1 fac is too less
You need an reactor for double marine production and build techlab at rax to switch fac there, since having one tank more or less is crucial
I didn't do the techlab swap but I did try reactor on rax. It's just not enough units. You'll get contained and pretty much never be able to break it. If you start going down your ramp you'll get forcefielded and your tanks killed by immortals in 2 seconds. You could go emp very quickly after, but a good toss is so spread out that you won't hit enough units with just 1 emp.
I actually can use the strat on kulas thanks to the backdoor expo with high ground. I think it also works ok on LT simply because you have so much ledge to shoot from. However, on any other map it just seems slightly too weak. That's why I'm looking into double factory variants.
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So many unskilled terrans whining about imbalance (I'm talking directly to you HalfAmazing).
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EPT
