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MorroW
Sweden3522 Posts
On April 17 2010 07:25 Floophead_III wrote: What's the new build/followup? Is it limited in transitions or more like forge FE where you can do many variations? why would u wanna do variations when 2base mass marauder on 9raxes is auto win in tvp cause of the early game econ advantage | ||
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Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
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MorroW
Sweden3522 Posts
On April 17 2010 07:31 Floophead_III wrote: That's ridiculous. Are you sure there's nothing toss can do? FF + coli? 3 robo immortal? Drops? Even voidrays/carriers? if u hold off the rush where u went fast expo u will have so big advantage that u can do anything and ull win its a 13nex in tvp (sc1). if u get away with it then u can do w/e u want. the fe i have atm is probably beatable but its the best one so far in this patch that ive used | ||
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Bibdy
United States3481 Posts
That's why I advocated reducing their damage to Light to something like 8 +12, or 6 +14, rather than turn Conc Shells into an upgrade, so Terrans would actually HAVE to make Marines to break down the Zealot wall. If they still want to spam Marauders, go nuts, but they're going to have to kite all the way back into their own mineral line. | ||
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Feefee
Canada556 Posts
I guess there was some useful discussion in here amongst the flamewars^^ | ||
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Pelirrojo
United States98 Posts
On April 17 2010 07:23 MorroW wrote: ive actually updated my old 1rax fe build and i will soon reach 100% winratio like i did back in patch 5 but honestly i dont even enjoy playing tvp. its just mass marauder every single game. just as i predicted their shells upgrade wouldnt stop the mass marauder, it would just cause us to adjust the early game bo i rly hope they nerf the marauder, and i mean the marauder, not any upgrade tt its lame (theyd have to buff most t units tho but in the long run we would have more variety) On April 17 2010 07:33 MorroW wrote: if u hold off the rush where u went fast expo u will have so big advantage that u can do anything and ull win its a 13nex in tvp (sc1). if u get away with it then u can do w/e u want. the fe i have atm is probably beatable but its the best one so far in this patch that ive used Can we get a replay or more detailed BO? This thread all of a sudden went from "T can't possibly ever win vs P ever in a million billion years" to the complete opposite with Morrow apparently achieving a near 100% winrate vs toss...? I've only been following this thread for the past 10 pages or so, but I'm just totally lost. | ||
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lolreaper
301 Posts
On April 17 2010 07:33 MorroW wrote: if u hold off the rush where u went fast expo u will have so big advantage that u can do anything and ull win its a 13nex in tvp (sc1). if u get away with it then u can do w/e u want. the fe i have atm is probably beatable but its the best one so far in this patch that ive used isnt properly executed 5warpgate rush going to destroy it like every time ? | ||
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WorkersOfTheWorld
United States619 Posts
On April 17 2010 07:28 MorroW wrote: why would u wanna do variations when 2base mass marauder on 9raxes is auto win in tvp cause of the early game econ advantage And the thread comes full-circle. All protoss vindication aside, I'm glad to see top terran feeling like they have an answer to toss again. Hopefully soon we'll see TvP that isn't some kind of back and forth between marauder and immortal timing pushes. | ||
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IaniAniaN
Canada555 Posts
On April 17 2010 07:50 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote: And the thread comes full-circle. All protoss vindication aside, I'm glad to see top terran feeling like they have an answer to toss again. Hopefully soon we'll see TvP that isn't some kind of back and forth between marauder and immortal timing pushes. Honestly this wouldn't be too bad since that's how BW is played anyway (tank/vult and goon/zeal timing psuhes). | ||
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Arco
United States2090 Posts
2 Gate Zealot/Sentry into 1 Stargate Voidrays. This has been raping 20-50ish rank plat players for me. You can kill their wall with void rays really easy, then zealot/sentry/void ray pretty much rapes marines, and MARAUDERS CANT HIT AIR (LOL). Hope this helps. Edit: Forgot to mention, transition into Robo and/or Templar tech seems to work nice when their Marauder ball gets thicker, and possibly Carriers later, but Gateway units and Void Rays just have so much synergy it's sick. Storm/Stalker/Sentry seems to stop Viking counters, too. Also, I'll try and add some replays after I get some more games and have had more time to experiment with the build. But I'm saying it right now-- Void Rays are Scouts on crack. They are even viable PvZ... I just did a Liquid Nazgul PvZ opening from the TLI (Blistering Sands map) into double Stargate Void Ray with +1 ground attack chargelot/sentry/stalker push against 2 base Hydra. He added Spire when he saw my composition, so I just added a couple Phoenix and then started building more VOID RAYS so my second push crushed his third and nat, won me the game. I feel my macro is pretty good but I lose a lot of PvZs in stupid way, it seems liek Void Ray just works so much better than Robo or Templar Tech units early on. I dunno. Gateway units + Void ray for life. TLDR; Void rays arent bad. | ||
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WorkersOfTheWorld
United States619 Posts
On April 17 2010 08:26 Tump wrote: Hey, I'm going to enlighten all P users who are having trouble with Marauders: 2 Gate Zealot/Sentry into 1 Stargate Voidrays. This has been raping 20-50ish rank plat players for me. You can kill their wall with void rays really easy, then zealot/sentry/void ray pretty much rapes marines, and MARAUDERS CANT HIT AIR (LOL). Hope this helps. Replay? | ||
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eXigent.
Canada2419 Posts
On April 17 2010 07:49 Pelirrojo wrote: Can we get a replay or more detailed BO? This thread all of a sudden went from "T can't possibly ever win vs P ever in a million billion years" to the complete opposite with Morrow apparently achieving a near 100% winrate vs toss...? I've only been following this thread for the past 10 pages or so, but I'm just totally lost. Why would MorroW spend a big portion of his time learning and testing his build orders , just so he can hand them out to anyone that asks. Im sure he would rather keep that information to himself, and actually win games, rather than just give it out, and let other top protosses learn to counter it before even playing him. | ||
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weeeee
Australia71 Posts
On April 17 2010 08:45 eXigent. wrote: Why would MorroW spend a big portion of his time learning and testing his build orders , just so he can hand them out to anyone that asks. Im sure he would rather keep that information to himself, and actually win games, rather than just give it out, and let other top protosses learn to counter it before even playing him. So the meta game changes and blizz can balance better/faster? Wouldn't you like to see balance reached faster? If there wasn't money tournaments already i would be demanding replays but since in all likelihood giving away build orders means less money i don't expect replays from top players apart from tournament replays. Just playing devils advocate. | ||
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Pelirrojo
United States98 Posts
On April 17 2010 08:45 eXigent. wrote: Why would MorroW spend a big portion of his time learning and testing his build orders , just so he can hand them out to anyone that asks. Im sure he would rather keep that information to himself, and actually win games, rather than just give it out, and let other top protosses learn to counter it before even playing him. Fair enough. I mean, I don't really agree with that philosophy, especially when we're only in beta... But if that's the reason he doesn't want to reveal his BO then that's his choice. I was just shocked at how quickly the thread went from "TvP is impossible" to "actually, PvT" is impossible. I guess I will just take "1 rax FE" as a starting point and do my own experimenting from there. | ||
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BrTarolg
United Kingdom3574 Posts
Not sure if 1 gate FE is possible because early 1 rax mara just rapes it but if T is going rines only then it might be ok. Maybe fast DT's into double expand might become a geniune std build order lol | ||
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weeeee
Australia71 Posts
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Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
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MorroW
Sweden3522 Posts
if u stop a massgateway u will be ahead and win the game, its a simple thought the proper way how a rts game should be is that a counter to a safe expo is to expo urself to catch up rather than having a bunch of "C&C db style rock paper scissor" hard counters im not sure if my build or any tvp build for that matter can defend all cheese yet by "scout and respond rule" but i know its the best so far, since everything else has been failing terribly lately. just watch my reps vs nightend where i desperately tried to play my old 1rax fe xd so if it now happens to be that u can counter cheese with this build, it doesnt mean pvt is impossible. it just means ur not gonna win easily by going same 1robo3warpgate every game. hopefully this is the first step to counter fe with fe rather than counter fe with rush. if both fe i guess it will turn out to be anyones game. but if terran cant fe then terran cant win because stuff like dts or sentry with force field are just so strong 1base vs 1base that they can let u expand while terran is locked in (5sentry 2immortal and 3 zealot is never ever gonna let u down the ramp). thats why its so important that we need a fe build thats safe against all cheese im not gonna release any reps and its best if i dont talk about this any more for now because im still not sure how good it is really. but i can imagine it being really strong and ive never lost with it where i executed it correctly yet (im low rating tho). but ill keep u guys posted of my build works or not (as in straight up play, not luck based. not as in win or lose... "without meta game abuse" as nony would say :>) | ||
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Niteo
United States28 Posts
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MorroW
Sweden3522 Posts
On April 17 2010 09:28 Niteo wrote: This 4 rax FE is pretty crazy. I've steamrolled two TvPs in a row using the build when I used to feel pretty helpless. i think it dies vs mass zea sentry with mass warp gates and im 100% sure it dies vs colosus rush. its v good vs immortal push tho, which is the most common build atm | ||
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