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On April 17 2010 13:49 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2010 13:03 Floophead_III wrote:
Mech T exists. I use it every game. I have been since the start =D
It's much more difficult and requires intimate knowledge of BW terran play which I think 99% of sc2 players know nothing about. That's why nobody does it except nostalgic players like myself who enjoy the awesome power of mass tanks! and then he blinks into your tanks while 5 immortals with 50+ shields left start shooting at your tanks/thors. straight mech is immobile,requires AMAZING positioning, has zero mapcontrol and can be countered very easily just by building the right units and aclicking. but if you have success with it then please share some reps. i saw FA getting DOMINATED in so many reps even when his mech-> expo style worked cause the p has mapcontrol,masses up and then wins the fight in such a rapage style (p loses 30 supply, t loses 70++) with a simple aclick that its not even funny ~~
Watch the me vs orb game I posted in this thread. Orb had almost pure immortal and got slaughtered with like 30 more food in his army because his positioning was poor. Without hardened shields immortals are basically supercharged dragoons so they melt as fast as dragoons =D
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http://starcraft.gamesports.net/de/replays/
an argument that goes the other way:
white-ra just lost 1-4 to strelok
dont really know how respected white-ra is in the top-top class but i think hes definetely a great player
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Regarding the Strelok vs. White-Ra games then this thread is putting a lot of focus on the Immortal-push, 4-5 Warp Gate-push and whether Terran can get an early expansion. White-Ra only built Immortals in the LT game and only 3 of them. There were some Void Ray antics, some worker harass, but not really the standard Protoss strategies used against Terran.
White-Ra is beyond reproach skill wise, but these games didn't bring any additional information to this thread (apart from the fact that Terran can win)
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im just saying, when white ra isnt doing the 4gate, then it could mean something about how metagame has changed for TvP since this thread was opened
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On April 18 2010 01:25 Viruuus wrote:
im just saying, when white ra isnt doing the 4gate, then it could mean something about how metagame has changed for TvP since this thread was opened
not rly. he eleminated morrow from esl with 4warp gate rush today.
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8748 Posts
On April 18 2010 00:53 Nilaus wrote:
Regarding the Strelok vs. White-Ra games then this thread is putting a lot of focus on the Immortal-push, 4-5 Warp Gate-push and whether Terran can get an early expansion. White-Ra only built Immortals in the LT game and only 3 of them. There were some Void Ray antics, some worker harass, but not really the standard Protoss strategies used against Terran.
White-Ra is beyond reproach skill wise, but these games didn't bring any additional information to this thread (apart from the fact that Terran can win)
This conclusion is only correct if you assume White-Ra is ignorant of Immortal pushes and Warpgate rushes. I think White-Ra knows these strategies and has a good reason for not doing them. Of course, more useful information for this thread would involve White-Ra doing Immortal pushes and Warpgate rushes to the best of his ability and failing. But his choice not to do those things implies that he thinks they would have failed.
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8748 Posts
On April 18 2010 01:25 Viruuus wrote:
im just saying, when white ra isnt doing the 4gate, then it could mean something about how metagame has changed for TvP since this thread was opened
Really unlikely that it's the metagame changing with this caliber of players. I'm sure they are simply discovering new things with their strategies, builds and counters.
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Whatever your skillevel, whenever there is a "free-win", abusing it 100% will lead to stagnation of your game. If you feel it is so powerful that it will get nerfed, then someone like white-ra will definately want to practice other ways to play the match-up.
What I am saying is that regardless of whether this is an imbalanced situation or not, white-ra not using it doesn't tell us anything. Sure, if we see great players using it and losing, that would be something else.
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It seems to me that there is the huge problem that Terran cannot fight the standard protoss unit composition in a cost efficient way. There is not really a much better option than trying hit and run with marauders or playing standard in an open battle, but there should be ways to make more out of your units than a-clicking with a little bit of fine tuning. Such as having well positioned tanks as part of a unit composition but that doesn't really give one much of an advantage. 2 or 3 Ghosts do, but not enough sadly.
In these situations, Gateway units simply are too cost efficient compared to terran units right now.
Either that has to be changed or there must be some other way to fight.
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Regarding the initial Protoss robo push, here is something I have done recently with rather good success. I build a Ghost Academy as soon as I have 50 gas as well as a second refinery, next 25 gas is techlab on Barracks. When the Academy finishes start one ghost.
When the push comes you will have an EMP ready, more likely you will have 2 because the super early Ghost will be building up energy all the time. Since most ramps are small you will hit a good amount of units and hopefully fend off the push.
I continue with Marauder/Upgrades and start my CC in my base asap as well as a second Ghost, floating it over and pushing out as soon as I have 3 EMPs and stim.
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On April 18 2010 02:55 dustdust wrote:
Regarding the initial Protoss robo push, here is something I have done recently with rather good success. I build a Ghost Academy as soon as I have 50 gas, next 25 gas is techlab on Barracks. When the Academy finishes start one ghost.
When the push comes you will have an EMP ready, more likely you will have 2 because the super early Ghost will be building up energy all the time. Since most ramps are small you will hit a good amount of units and hopefully fend off the push.
I continue with Marauder/Ghost/Upgrades and start my CC in my base asap, floating it over and pushing out as soon as I have 4 EMPs.
Actually some protoss' discovered scouting and will make a little go with first 3, 4, 5 units and crush you.
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On April 18 2010 02:58 T33K3SS3LCH3N wrote:
Actually some protoss' discovered scouting and will make a little go with first 3, 4, 5 units and crush you.
Protoss has no clue what Terran is doing until they have an observer. All they see is 2 depots and a Barracks with tech-lab.
If the Protoss gets a probe in before the wall is ready you obviously delay the Academy until the probe is dead.
I had no problem so far fending off early agression behind my wall as one can start marauder production as soon as the first ghost finishes. Building a bunker which you can salvage later on is always an option, too.
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I don't know about you guys... but I can't win vs. a Terran that goes mass banshee/viking
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On April 18 2010 03:18 Raydog wrote:
I don't know about you guys... but I can't win vs. a Terran that goes mass banshee/viking
build 2 phoenixes early on and contain the terran, meanwhile take an economic advantage and get teh mass blink stalker with HT production rolling.
this is to what i lose when i go mass air vs p.
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On April 18 2010 03:18 Raydog wrote:
I don't know about you guys... but I can't win vs. a Terran that goes mass banshee/viking
phonix owns viking :p if he mass air u can just mass phonix and its eze win
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How do you come to this conclusion?
Viking: 150/75
Phoenix: 150/100
A 1on1 fight between phoenix and viking ends with a draw if the viking has first hit (which he always has because of its range)
And: Viking has shorter build time and can be reactor-pumped.
So Viking > Phoenix
In fact, Viking > Toss Air in a pure airbattle
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On April 18 2010 05:02 MorroW wrote:
both of them r light
Viking is armored.
Just go test it like I did, Viking and Phoenix are even in a fight while the Viking is cheaper and builds faster.
Phoenixes don't own Vikings, Sir.
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On April 18 2010 03:43 dustdust wrote:
How do you come to this conclusion?
Viking: 150/75
Phoenix: 150/100
A 1on1 fight between phoenix and viking ends with a draw if the viking has first hit (which he always has because of its range)
And: Viking has shorter build time and can be reactor-pumped.
So Viking > Phoenix
In fact, Viking > Toss Air in a pure airbattle
I played against Protoss with air and lost once, not because my Vikings were weaker than Phoenix, but purely because of the meta game. You need to account both Banshees and Stalkers during this fight, and you will see why P has an upper hand;
Scenario 1: If P focuses Vikings first with Stalkers and Phoenixes, he will get all Vikings but loses Stalkers to Banshees. Because Banshees cannot attack air, Phoenixes take care of them.
Scenario 2: If P focuses Banshees first with Stalkers and Phoenixes, he will get all Banshees but loses Phoenixes to Vikings. Because Vikings cannot win against Stalkers, Stalkers will take care of Vikings.
In both scenarios, P will win the battle! The problem is, because Banshees can only attack ground and Vikings can only attack air while in Fighter mode, P has the firsthand choice of choosing which units to focus on, and will eventually win the battle.
T actually has a chance of winning if he takes out an observer and Banshee goes cloacked mode. I won the first two battles barely with this method, but lost in the third battle because I couldn't find observers quickly and lost the game there.
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I guess I'll try going with a lot of phoenix. all I know is they go mass banshee/viking with M&M ground army, very hard to beat. maybe just a mix of phoenix/stalker/sentry/zealot with charge and maybe blink
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EPT
