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On April 18 2010 08:00 Floophead_III wrote:
Here's my thinking:
In BW there was only one way to get useful fighting units onto the battlefield early, and that was with more gateways. There was the possibility of DTs or reaver or shuttle bulldog style play, but you could defend vs all of them with the same basic set of units. Marines/tanks/turrets/vulture+ mines. Some combo of those allowed you to defend vs any type of protoss opening.
In SC2 you have the 4 warpgate push, immortal 3 warpgate push, immortal drop, and even other things that people don't use often like coli drop and dt. Right now terran does not have an answer to all these different builds with 1 build. Even if protoss can't kill you, if you went the wrong build you'll be stuck waiting for the right tech to move out, or even contained indefinitely. Protoss doesn't need to expand immediately if he can keep you in your base forever.
On a side note: Huk vs Drewbie should prove how garbage T mass air is. Stalkers + blink + obs isn't even fair.
lol such BS. Terran who knows how to abuse mass air shouldn't lose any head-to-head battles unless he fucks up or is fighting templar with good storm. if you watched one of the games today, you would know point defense drone from raven completely shuts down toss AA (stalkers and phoenix). drop 2-3 of those and your banshees get 10-15 seconds of invincibility, in which you can easily kill 1/2+ of the toss army.
Plus sniping obs is the easiest and most obnoxious thing ever as terran, so toss can't even fight you in the open. (9 range vikings, simply scan and a-move if they have no other air units or just target it if they do)
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So what you're saying is HuK didn't completely dominate Drewbie even though Drewbie put up a hidden expo and had it up for a while?
I like people who ignore facts and pretend they understand this game.
Terran does not have the resources for multiple ravens, a fleet of banshees, and vikings off 1 base. Terran needs substantial time on multiple bases, time he won't have because stalkers with blink shift the pressure back way too quickly if P is not caught completely off guard.
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On April 19 2010 14:52 Chen wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2010 08:00 Floophead_III wrote:
Here's my thinking:
In BW there was only one way to get useful fighting units onto the battlefield early, and that was with more gateways. There was the possibility of DTs or reaver or shuttle bulldog style play, but you could defend vs all of them with the same basic set of units. Marines/tanks/turrets/vulture+ mines. Some combo of those allowed you to defend vs any type of protoss opening.
In SC2 you have the 4 warpgate push, immortal 3 warpgate push, immortal drop, and even other things that people don't use often like coli drop and dt. Right now terran does not have an answer to all these different builds with 1 build. Even if protoss can't kill you, if you went the wrong build you'll be stuck waiting for the right tech to move out, or even contained indefinitely. Protoss doesn't need to expand immediately if he can keep you in your base forever.
On a side note: Huk vs Drewbie should prove how garbage T mass air is. Stalkers + blink + obs isn't even fair. lol such BS. Terran who knows how to abuse mass air shouldn't lose any head-to-head battles unless he fucks up or is fighting templar with good storm. if you watched one of the games today, you would know point defense drone from raven completely shuts down toss AA (stalkers and phoenix). drop 2-3 of those and your banshees get 10-15 seconds of invincibility, in which you can easily kill 1/2+ of the toss army. Plus sniping obs is the easiest and most obnoxious thing ever as terran, so toss can't even fight you in the open. (9 range vikings, simply scan and a-move if they have no other air units or just target it if they do)
If Terran has to abuse mass air evverry single TvP...there's something wrong. That's what we're trying to fix by having these discussions. So that there is more options/variety.
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On April 19 2010 14:57 jamvng wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 14:52 Chen wrote:On April 18 2010 08:00 Floophead_III wrote:
Here's my thinking:
In BW there was only one way to get useful fighting units onto the battlefield early, and that was with more gateways. There was the possibility of DTs or reaver or shuttle bulldog style play, but you could defend vs all of them with the same basic set of units. Marines/tanks/turrets/vulture+ mines. Some combo of those allowed you to defend vs any type of protoss opening.
In SC2 you have the 4 warpgate push, immortal 3 warpgate push, immortal drop, and even other things that people don't use often like coli drop and dt. Right now terran does not have an answer to all these different builds with 1 build. Even if protoss can't kill you, if you went the wrong build you'll be stuck waiting for the right tech to move out, or even contained indefinitely. Protoss doesn't need to expand immediately if he can keep you in your base forever.
On a side note: Huk vs Drewbie should prove how garbage T mass air is. Stalkers + blink + obs isn't even fair. lol such BS. Terran who knows how to abuse mass air shouldn't lose any head-to-head battles unless he fucks up or is fighting templar with good storm. if you watched one of the games today, you would know point defense drone from raven completely shuts down toss AA (stalkers and phoenix). drop 2-3 of those and your banshees get 10-15 seconds of invincibility, in which you can easily kill 1/2+ of the toss army. Plus sniping obs is the easiest and most obnoxious thing ever as terran, so toss can't even fight you in the open. (9 range vikings, simply scan and a-move if they have no other air units or just target it if they do) If Terran has to abuse mass air evverry single TvP...there's something wrong. That's what we're trying to fix by having these discussions. So that there is more options/variety.
You should watch the Strelok replays i linked, none of them are mass air.
On April 19 2010 14:30 jamvng wrote:I'm curious to hear opinions on the Jinro vs Inka games (Team EG vs TL). Game 1: http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/6255169Game 2: http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/6255848Jinro went a 1Rax FE, then added 2 Rax to transition into 2 Fac both games. Basically going mass marines and tanks with ghosts. He ended up losing both games due to not being able to secure a third expo. What do you guys think Jinro did wrong? His positioning was pretty good, but both times he was overrun by the Protoss ball. Would getting Hellions instead of Marines as a mineral dump be better? and then harassing more with those Hellions (runbys, drops, etc)? Were his EMPs not effective (he missed a few) and maybe better control of his ghosts would have won him the game? Or was Jinro simply outplayed by Inka? It seems like there is so much more to do as a Terran if he goes mech.
There were multipul opportunities missed by Jinro in those games to capitolize on. I'm assuming he's just getting to know that particular build and Inka was very much on top of his game. Despite those issues he still performed strongly against Inka and I wouldn't call either of the game a land-slide victory.
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On April 19 2010 14:30 jamvng wrote:I'm curious to hear opinions on the Jinro vs Inka games (Team EG vs TL). Game 1: http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/6255169Game 2: http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/6255848Jinro went a 1Rax FE, then added 2 Rax to transition into 2 Fac both games. Basically going mass marines and tanks with ghosts. He ended up losing both games due to not being able to secure a third expo. What do you guys think Jinro did wrong? His positioning was pretty good, but both times he was overrun by the Protoss ball. Would getting Hellions instead of Marines as a mineral dump be better? and then harassing more with those Hellions (runbys, drops, etc)? Were his EMPs not effective (he missed a few) and maybe better control of his ghosts would have won him the game? Or was Jinro simply outplayed by Inka? It seems like there is so much more to do as a Terran if he goes mech.
I believe Jinro made a post about that in either this thread or the clanwars thread.
Basically he said that he probably overcompensated in terms of turtling because during his practice games he would get owned every time he moved out too early.
I think Jinro had a very good chance in both of the games, especially the one on Blistering Sands if he didn't miss as many EMPs and such :\
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You can snipe out the Point defense Drone with Focus Fire and all attacks at the same time, then switch to Banshees or whatever. Little Mikro huge Swing in your favour. So do´t complain about them being too powerful
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On April 19 2010 15:21 Tyrannon wrote:
So do´t complain about them being too powerful
Oh sweet irony.
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I'm not sure why you would make such a broad statement when the only game that seemed somewhat normal was lost temple. All the other games were with either void ray rushes or fast twilight councils.
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On April 19 2010 15:34 RivalryRedux wrote:I'm not sure why you would make such a broad statement when the only game that seemed somewhat normal was lost temple. All the other games were with either void ray rushes or fast twilight councils.
I'm not sure why you would make the even broader statement that you understand what "normal" TvP looks like after 2 weeks of this patch.
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On April 19 2010 15:19 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 14:30 jamvng wrote:I'm curious to hear opinions on the Jinro vs Inka games (Team EG vs TL). Game 1: http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/6255169Game 2: http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/6255848Jinro went a 1Rax FE, then added 2 Rax to transition into 2 Fac both games. Basically going mass marines and tanks with ghosts. He ended up losing both games due to not being able to secure a third expo. What do you guys think Jinro did wrong? His positioning was pretty good, but both times he was overrun by the Protoss ball. Would getting Hellions instead of Marines as a mineral dump be better? and then harassing more with those Hellions (runbys, drops, etc)? Were his EMPs not effective (he missed a few) and maybe better control of his ghosts would have won him the game? Or was Jinro simply outplayed by Inka? It seems like there is so much more to do as a Terran if he goes mech. I believe Jinro made a post about that in either this thread or the clanwars thread. Basically he said that he probably overcompensated in terms of turtling because during his practice games he would get owned every time he moved out too early. I think Jinro had a very good chance in both of the games, especially the one on Blistering Sands if he didn't miss as many EMPs and such :\
oooo which thread is this? I can't find it through search..
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Just watched the 5 replays. Aside the 2 void ray rushes, these games were pretty educational. See it done and practice 100x over to get it right.
Strelok did the 1rax FE into 4rax quite flawlessly. I think the biggest difference between Jinro's game and Strelok's was that Strelok stuck with a conventional unit composition and was very aggressive. Jinro, on the other hand, made a few timing mistakes.
However, there can be some things said about WhiteRa's play. He had a weird unit composition and seemed to do the strongest when he had his first immortal out on lost temple. In my opinion, he just pushed out too early and did mess up by shooting that stray scv with his immortals.
Other things of notice was that hellion drop and 2 starport play. Although I think the vikings were only effective because WhiteRa voidray rushed.
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On April 19 2010 15:38 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:
I'm not sure why you would make the even broader statement that you understand what "normal" TvP looks like after 2 weeks of this patch.
I meant normal as in commonly seen rather than the "right" way to play. It's not too common to see void ray rushes or fast twilight council/zealot leg/dt play so if it doesn't work, especially when the games end in 10 minutes, it's not going to change how everyone sees the match up.
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Bring tanks down to 2 food and we should be good to go I think.
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On April 19 2010 16:28 RivalryRedux wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 15:38 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:
I'm not sure why you would make the even broader statement that you understand what "normal" TvP looks like after 2 weeks of this patch. I meant normal as in commonly seen rather than the "right" way to play. It's not too common to see void ray rushes or fast twilight council/zealot leg/dt play so if it doesn't work, especially when the games end in 10 minutes, it's not going to change how everyone sees the match up.
On the contrary i'd say VR rushing is not atypical for toss in this patch, and who is to say he wasn't just responding to what he thought would be a fast banshee anyhow? Point being: WhiteRa's strats were not deliberately silly and he micro'd fairly well in all games with a few mistakes.
You cannot just write these replays off because the outcomes didn't support your "terran is underpowered" thesis.
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imo sentires are the blame for all of this
nerf sentries = more effective marines = hold immortal push easier = force protoss to tech faster and not push as hard
nerfing sentries would also help zvp, because ZVP is now full of immortal pushes as well.
in fact all i think protoss do is immortal timing attacks. So boring. Please nerf sentries so that small units can operate against immortals and make the timing protoss push more difficult to execute.
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On the contrary i'd say VR rushing is not atypical for toss in this patch, and who is to say he wasn't just responding to what he thought would be a fast banshee anyhow? Point being: WhiteRa's strats were not deliberately silly and he micro'd fairly well in all games with a few mistakes.
Void ray rushing isn't unheard of but it's obviously not going to represent a large portion of the match up. As far as the rest I didn't say anything about micro and not common ! = deliberately silly.
You cannot just write these replays off because the outcomes didn't support your "terran is underpowered" thesis.
Uhhh.... Look in the mirror? I'm not the one saying X race is great/bad or anything about TvP/PvT being unbalanced.
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The Problem i see in 4RaxFE is the vulnerability of your main.
He´ll pressure you with Zealots+Sentries making you spend a lots of minerals and then doing something funky to your Main.
Expansion
+
Colossi Drop
DT Drop
Warpins
Stalker with Blink
Whatever works best for your Base since he can scout it with an Observer.
If you want to defend that, you´ll end up spending way too much in Defense. Protoss will go Steamrolling over you.
Did I miss something?
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Well i have to say that i reaaally liked the build that jinro did in TL vs EG clan match. On bs there was a problem with his 2nd expo. I can blame the map and him cuz he missed quiet a few EMPs. Also mby he could take his 2nd expo faster? Dunno... if someone knows what he said about it plz quote it for me 
edit: nvm, found it
can quote it for you guys if anyone havent seen it yet
+ Show Spoiler +On April 18 2010 09:47 FrozenArbiter wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2010 06:40 SoLaR[i.C] wrote:![[image loading]](http://img532.imageshack.us/img532/3418/teamegcheerful.png) On April 18 2010 06:39 ZaaaaaM wrote:
Damn, Jinro played so damn well and still lost. His EMPs could be a lot better but damn, TvP needs a bit of tweaking imo. Agreed. I think that it's VERY tough for Terran to do any sort of harassment/do anything other than play defensively when both play straight up. Protoss seems to just expand and it's damn near impossible to beat an army with combined Storm + Immortals. EMPs can only do so much. I don't know, I don't think I can blame this one on imbalance. I think tanks SHOULD be cheaper (100 gas, maybe 2 supply, but it's debatable) but I don't think this had almost anything to do with why I lost. There are so many things I could have improved to give myself a chance at winning - it's not like I played a "Flash level" game. That being said, some tweaks would probably improve the matchup, as trying to 1 rax cc on kulas ravine is "fun". This is mostly a map issue obviously, but I think that type of map is gonna be around for a while. Show nested quote +On April 18 2010 06:30 Kaniol wrote:
If Flash saw this game: "Hmmm maybe there is something good in this SC2... Thanks to this Jinro guy for showing me!" Lol, sorry!! I just got completely raped whenever I tried to move out too soon in the practice games I played  I guess I over-compensated.
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While being too reliant on air is a bad idea, I think its a valid option to force the toss to split his army, play more defensive or alter his army comp. A stalker heavy army will be a lot easier to take down than colossi/immortal/temps. Then again the real gamechange is how much of an econ advantage the protoss can get early on.
As much as I love tanks, once those zealots start swarming in i'm doing as much damage to my own army as I am doing to his! Then its colossi/psi storm and my army gets roasted.
If the time required for a terran to go agressive lets the toss get a 1-2 bases advantage, the game is pretty much over regardless of your harass. How I wish terran air would be as fast as mutalisks
I honestly dont like EMP being SO important in this matchup either. It should give you an edge when you land a few good ones but it should not completly turn around the matchup or make you lose the game should you forget/miss it.
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watch this replay
http://himan.pl/index.php?a=details&id=286
its korean 40min long tvp with mech open (emp incuded)
terran used practically every unit in game put alot of pressure with drops on toss but he still counldnt outproduce P, terran units arent enough cost effective, tanks suck ass vs immortals and in some situations even colo's can take them out
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EPT
