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Hey!
Right - i'm not one to whine, but i'm at a real dead end right now when it comes to this matchup - i've tried literally everything but it feels as if my army is never as cost effective - and never as fast at rebuilding.
Before the patch - TvP has always been my least favourite Matchup as i felt i was limited to 1 viable strategy - that being the marauder fe. The patch came and swiftly tore that apart, and after immortals not allowing mech play, it leaves terran with little option but to go BIO that has been nerfed considerably, and doesn't really stand up to a protoss army head on.
Now, my main predicament being - a 4-5 warpgate rush (i find this incredibly hard to hold off, i just encountered a game where i went 3 rax, 2 bunkers and died behind my wall to it), or the more simple 3 warpgate immortal -> push/expo and tech to HT's.
Before the patch - terrans were still weaker late game vs toss - due to the inability to go heavy units such as thors/tanks, and thus investing alot of money in bio due to it not being totally destroyed by immortals. But right now, i don't have an advantage at any point in the game and feel constantly behind - is their a strategy that i'm missing out on? Or is every Terran feeling the way i do? :S
Any suggestions are appreciated - anybody also dwelling on the same situation will make me feel less crap for losing roughly 9/11 games vs protoss in the last few days.
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have you tried the ghost?
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This belongs in the Strategy forums. And you'll need to have some replays to show the issue you're talking about and allow people to see what mistakes you're making and help you fix them.
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I feel about the same way. It feels like I'm constantly struggling to keep up with a toss's unit production just to stay alive - let alone get map control or put pressure on him. I keep stupidly thinking that I can take an expo earlier on too to maybe get an advantage that way, but it isn't possible if the toss stays on one base because he'll just have more stuff than you when he pushes and you die. Going fast ghosts to stop the immortals doesn't even seem like it works very well, because when you make ghosts so early on it's just eating into the rest of your army, and even with taking out the immortal shields, you still just don't have enough to stop pushes.
I've started playing tvp with the idea of.. I'm not expoing until the toss does. But then I still get run over when we take our expansions at the same time. S: So I dunno.
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It's DeMusliM you idiots. One of the best terrans in EU. Of course he's tried ghosts and of course he doesn't need any replays.
I've been noticing since this patch that terrans have been getting raped by protoss 4 gate pushes. Like you mentioned, this is largely due to marauder early fast expand not being viable anymore (unless the protoss goofs up with his timing push or isn't aggressive).
About the only terran I've seen in streams still doing well against protoss is CauthonLuck. He seems to do well with a few early harrass strategies while building a mass bio army at home. Have you checked out his KoTH showmatches?
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DeMuslim is a high-level player in SC2. I think that thread by Kennigit said that high-level players do not need to provide replays iirc. Anyway, I think the best build for this patch in TvP is to go for a 4 rax FE and just make 3 bunkers then transition into Rauders + Medivacs + Vikings if you see Collosi. The thing with the FE build though is you HAVE to make sure the Protoss is going Immortals, otherwise you die. That's how you counter the 3 warpgate immortal -> push. However, against the 4-5 warpgate rush (usually Stalkers with blink), it's a more difficult predicament. I think going 2 Rax pumping Marauders with fast EMP (around 29-33ish pop) counters both builds. Try not to FE too much against Protoss unless you're sure he's going Immortals. Then go for that 4 rax marine only FE build. I know you're a high level player so you probably won't think what I'm saying will work, but yeah try it out.
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Can't wait to see the sparks fly when orb sees this thread. 
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On April 14 2010 10:18 HCastorp wrote:Can't wait to see the sparks fly when orb sees this thread.
lol I was thinking the same thing...
+ Show Spoiler +you just HAD to beat me to it...
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Osaka27171 Posts
Please read the posting guidelines before making a thread.
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ah ok posted it in the wrong place, my bad.
But yeh, the last game i played i went 3 rax no expo attempt, had 7 rines 5 rauders and a ghost sat in bunkers/behind my wall - and he managed to break in and cripple me to the point i had to bring all my scvs. I was literally shocked that the fact i was using every resource on units not even teching and i couldn't stop this push - like surely something is wrong with that?
As for any possible comments about micro, i didn't lose 1 unit, not even my scouting scv i knew exactly what he was doing - but i couldn't counter it. Eventually he just got DTs with an expo up and i was out of the running. It feels as if there is literally no viable strategy to go right now, and it's just go a weird strat and hope the protoss makes mistakes - i'm just not enjoying this matchup at all - i really hope the next patch comes soon, as i know there is no miracle cure to this without one.
- By the way, does anyone else feel that after 8 patches, we're kinda circling round obvious problems and leaving them be, rather than fixing the the main bulk of things?
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Osaka27171 Posts
Moved to strat section, and PMed.
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On April 14 2010 10:22 DeMusliM wrote:
ah ok posted it in the wrong place, my bad.
But yeh, the last game i played i went 3 rax no expo attempt, had 7 rines 5 rauders and a ghost sat in bunkers/behind my wall - and he managed to break in and cripple me to the point i had to bring all my scvs. I was literally shocked that the fact i was using every resource on units not even teching and i couldn't stop this push - like surely something is wrong with that?
As for any possible comments about micro, i didn't lose 1 unit, not even my scouting scv i knew exactly what he was doing - but i couldn't counter it. Eventually he just got DTs with an expo up and i was out of the running. It feels as if there is literally no viable strategy to go right now, and it's just go a weird strat and hope the protoss makes mistakes - i'm just not enjoying this matchup at all - i really hope the next patch comes soon, as i know there is no miracle cure to this without one.
- By the way, does anyone else feel that after 8 patches, we're kinda circling round obvious problems and leaving them be, rather than fixing the the main bulk of things?
I would have to agree, especially since I am a toss player. First of all, with the recent patch, terran has NO chance to pressure early anymore, and that is the main problem for protoss... they can simply sit back on 1gate and instantly buff up to 4gate and pump out units without need for an expansion for as long as needed, and STILL have plenty of money to expand.
Though emp is very effective, a heavy stalker army can simply run away and harass very effectively without early marauder slow, which definately puts them behind in tech.
I thought pvt was fairly better balanced before the marauder nerf, and I am not sure exactly what can be done, but early toss aggression is definitely a bit too strong.
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I agree, because even if you manage to stop the early protoss attack, they can still expand while you are stuck turtling in your base. I think the main problem with this matchup is that we're not allowed to make hellions, tanks, or thors because of the immortal.
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Force Field, Warpgate, Immortal's Hardened Shield and ridiculous 50 damage against armored units made 4 gates 1 robo push extremely difficult for Terran to win while relatively easier for Protoss pull it out. Something must be done in balance wise in my opinion. Sure, it's not impossible to win against this strategy, but when even top players like DeMusliM says T needs to hope for P to make mistake to win shows that something is seriously wrong here.
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I saved you the trouble of some replays
Equilateral is a pretty strong (top of his division) plat player - by no means the very best but a very strong, decent mechanical player
I am a middle level plat player at best
Watch me absolutely destroy him when he FE's. Twice.
not to mention this is extremely difficult to defend even if you dont fast expand - note that i deliberately didnt make early units (in fact the chronod immortal comes in time for a mara rush) because i didnt scout any reaper rush or anything like that (though to be fair, the true build order makes 2 stalkers)
Note my poor macro and mechanics also, missing chronoboosts (and being unsure what to chronoboost a lot of the time aswell, i THINK i should be boosting warptech so i can drop gates earlier and then maybe do the first push using the pylon in the middle of the map instead) not only that, i dont even push with my first immortal + 2 stalkers leaving them lulling around not doing anything
By no means are either of us 100% perfect but you get the gist of it.
Oh, and voidray rush is lul.
http://www.sc2rc.com/index.php/replay/show/1330
http://www.sc2rc.com/index.php/replay/show/1331
edit: oh btw @ some of the eu players on this thread
I'm looking for more practise partners (a lot of mine have gone inactive) - so please pm me, hassybaby.hasybaby is me (its a shared acc but 99% of the time its me)
edit:
oh as a little kicker, remember this thread?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=119468
I pm'ed day9 also.
No answer as of yet.
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TvP is broke now. pre-patch this MU was pretty balanced because terran can put on early pressure to slow down toss. Now marauder is nerfed because its boring to play with, albeit pretty effective in all MU. The early pressure on toss is gone because of the upgradable concussive shells and now toss is doing just fine with 50 dmg per shot on marauders and 50% cut-down to marines' firepower w/ guardian shield and its free +1 armor. and all the tech-lab, reactor, fac, starport thing and tons of upgrades are gas heavy, which requires big time to pay off. I'm quite lost what are we supposed to do?
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TvP is easy, all you need to do is take the two corner expansions on steppes of war, keep your fingers crossed he doesn't scout them the entire game, and win an extremely close game by the skin of your teeth.
:D
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On April 14 2010 10:07 tubs wrote:
It's DeMusliM you idiots. One of the best terrans in EU. Of course he's tried ghosts and of course he doesn't need any replays.
hahahahah this made my day ^
DeMusliM,
I watch your games as much as I can. And obviously, you have a strong grasp of the game as can be seen by your build orders and economy/production. However, I would like to see more harass tactics and drops! You are extremely great at building the army and getting one, but more creative thought must be put in to use that army in the most advantageous method possible.
You say you are having trouble because fighting head on with the Toss army is difficult. Well, if you are simply looking for an answer in how to fight head on with the Toss army, anyone can tell you that you just need more men, upgrades, tier 3, etc.
But my other answer to your question would be to not simply focus for the inevitable Blob Vs. Blob moment of the game. It is not only about getting there the firstest with mostest.
Haha I wanted to give you technical advice and build orders but you're DeMusliM.
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its broken match up ben just gotta wait till they patch it
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EPT
