EPTTerran vs Protoss - Page 4
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TwilightStar
United States649 Posts
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2SCV1cup
69 Posts
On April 14 2010 20:51 TwilightStar wrote: Incontrol has saved the day... Terran players just need to adapt now ~_~ no that they already wrote that they have tried every fuckin unit in game | ||
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mOnion
United States5651 Posts
On April 14 2010 19:31 {88}iNcontroL wrote: i love how they make the grenade a cheap upgrade that takes half a minute to upgrade and everyone starts crying imbalance. Just before this "nerf" terrans were at the top of each division and improving their overall winning percentage by 13% on the EU server while P decreased and Z went up half as much as T. It's pretty simple: Terran can't rely on the marauder early to do all the meta game damage. Terrans abused the shit out of low econ rushes while being able to divide the resources into a powerful rush AND a FE simultaneously. This was OP and had a minor fix. Rushing is still viable but expanding off that rush is slower/more expensive. Macro'ing is JUST as viable but it requires smart preparation in terms of tech path: You no longer can kinda go marauder and kinda go banshee.. you need to commit. Overall this "nerf" just displays the poor state of spoiled terran players. They had their cake and ate it too now they are forced to blue collar it like P had to for 8 patches and Z .. well anyways. Reaper rushes are incredibly powerful. On some maps you can get there before a stalker gets out 100% and usually before a zeal gets out. That kind of harassment is incredible.. in fact P and Z have nothing that compares with that speed/power. Banshees STILL dominate the air. Hiding that tech or switching mid game ROCKS a protoss even one that sees it coming.. still tough to hold. I could go on but I'd rather not since I know point by point many of you will look at this and argue in general: Not enough. See the real problem isn't the actual game or the balance of the current build. The problem is terrans have an unreal expectation for this game. They were happy when they could grab 8 scvs and whatever marines they made in that 3 seconds it took to make em all and win. They were happy when marauders came with the strongest ability in the game at tier 1.5. Now you can't do an invincible rush and marauders are stuck dealing more damage with a better range and more health than anything else at that level BUT they have to upgrade the second cheapest upgrade in the game (2nd only to overlord speed). You guys can cry that immortals are OP. But take them out and roaches/marauders will be MORE of a problem (not less). You guys can complain about FF but none of you have had to deal with banelings as a P or a ling rush. This game is damn near perfect and it has taken me over 1k games to grind through it's issues and watch as it gets closer and closer to perfection.. you won't be successful and you won't do well sticking to what you THINK should work. You have to literally FIND what works.. which means work and practice. if i give you all my money will you be my father? | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
Previous patch marauder slow punished this pretty hard, now the combination of stim+slow (which is needed to punish a retreating toss player) comes too late and at too big a cost. Changing buildings from being armored to being a separate type (or just no type) would solve this issue imo. Lategame the immortal really isn't a problem as EMP and terran upgrades being more effective even the playing field but now early immortal pressure is damn strong against buildings. From all the units that get a big bonus against buildings only the voidray really deserves it imo... And like I and others have said before, the immortal is not making mech impossible, the mech setup itself makes it kind of impossible. Mech has no counters to armored units and no counters to heavy air, the way to solve this imo is to merge 'mech' upgrades and 'air' upgrades so you could mix in banshees as a armored counter then when using mech or vikings as a heavy air counter as mech. At the moment mech is useless to invest heavily in as you need a lot of other units simply because mech CAN'T deal with lots of stuff (BC's, carriers, broodlords, roaches and immortals all beat all 3 of the mech units...). I actually feel the marauder nerf was more of a mech nerf then a bio nerf. You need marauders with mech anyway as you cant beat roaches or immortals otherwise. Adding just a few marauders to mech play is less effective though now as you won't have slow nor have the gas to spare. Pure bio play can easily miss the gas though. The nerf was a little overdone imo and should have been something like 100m 50g. Blizzard seems to be intentionally overnerfing every 'issue' at the moment so that all flaws get to be revealed. When the real game comes out they probably switch to more subtle nerfs but now they just want to see how every part of every race works out i guess. Just as the strong marauder concealed any other terran weaknesses last patch, they at least revealed those now. If they went with a more subtle nerf people wouldn't have realized those flaws so soon. | ||
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HalfAmazing
Netherlands402 Posts
On April 14 2010 19:31 {88}iNcontroL wrote: See the real problem isn't the actual game or the balance of the current build. The problem is terrans have an unreal expectation for this game. What an absurd, sweeping, adversarial and polarizing statement. You can not be serious! You sound like a nationalist defending the "PROTOSS EMPIRE!". As if a terran player's expectations are any different than a protoss or zerg's. Everyone wants the game to be balanced. Everyone but you, apparently, judging by the rest of your post. | ||
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DeMusliM
United Kingdom401 Posts
The reason terrans used marauders so much is because EVERYTHING else wasn't cost effective or viable - (the rest of the units used from the barracks also got some kinda nerf). You needed marauders to survive early game - and to apply pressure and survive the rush (marines don't cut it dealing 4 damage per hit with guardian shield, and taking alot longer to build). Even before this patch protoss players were learning how to beat it - so you can't just Nerf the only viable strategy, and Buff thor/tank build time when they are already countered hard by the strat terrans are losing to. - It's almost like, creating a strategy to beat something, that already counters your strategy - it's worthless. I made this thread to find out if people were losing in a way they felt unwinnable, or if someone had some success story to share - and, although selfishly i guess - i'm quite happy others feel as lost as i do in this mu, although i would be much happier if there was a cure, or some kinda strat that could atleast go up against what i'm losing to. | ||
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Makica
Canada180 Posts
On April 14 2010 19:31 {88}iNcontroL wrote: i love how they make the grenade a cheap upgrade that takes half a minute to upgrade and everyone starts crying imbalance. Just before this "nerf" terrans were at the top of each division and improving their overall winning percentage by 13% on the EU server while P decreased and Z went up half as much as T. It's pretty simple: Terran can't rely on the marauder early to do all the meta game damage. Terrans abused the shit out of low econ rushes while being able to divide the resources into a powerful rush AND a FE simultaneously. This was OP and had a minor fix. Rushing is still viable but expanding off that rush is slower/more expensive. Macro'ing is JUST as viable but it requires smart preparation in terms of tech path: You no longer can kinda go marauder and kinda go banshee.. you need to commit. Overall this "nerf" just displays the poor state of spoiled terran players. They had their cake and ate it too now they are forced to blue collar it like P had to for 8 patches and Z .. well anyways. Reaper rushes are incredibly powerful. On some maps you can get there before a stalker gets out 100% and usually before a zeal gets out. That kind of harassment is incredible.. in fact P and Z have nothing that compares with that speed/power. Banshees STILL dominate the air. Hiding that tech or switching mid game ROCKS a protoss even one that sees it coming.. still tough to hold. I could go on but I'd rather not since I know point by point many of you will look at this and argue in general: Not enough. See the real problem isn't the actual game or the balance of the current build. The problem is terrans have an unreal expectation for this game. They were happy when they could grab 8 scvs and whatever marines they made in that 3 seconds it took to make em all and win. They were happy when marauders came with the strongest ability in the game at tier 1.5. Now you can't do an invincible rush and marauders are stuck dealing more damage with a better range and more health than anything else at that level BUT they have to upgrade the second cheapest upgrade in the game (2nd only to overlord speed). You guys can cry that immortals are OP. But take them out and roaches/marauders will be MORE of a problem (not less). You guys can complain about FF but none of you have had to deal with banelings as a P or a ling rush. This game is damn near perfect and it has taken me over 1k games to grind through it's issues and watch as it gets closer and closer to perfection.. you won't be successful and you won't do well sticking to what you THINK should work. You have to literally FIND what works.. which means work and practice. I wish these forums had a highlight on threads for intelligent posts, like the way Battle.net forum threads receive a blue highlight if a Blizzard employee wrote in them. I feel as though this post contributed the most because it has a great mindset for people to take note of. | ||
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Antimage
Canada1293 Posts
It's sad and amusing at the same time once you try it, because on a small/regular sized map, terran can't do anything to you, except defend and lose a depot or two while you expand and take map control. And DeMusliM, the only success story you'll hear is a terran beating a protoss player who got impatient and just a-moved with no micro or a protoss player not knowing how to abuse the early immortal. I've been trying with some good terran players and the only good news is that on larger maps, the imbalance isn't quite as obvious. | ||
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Kyo Yuy
United States1286 Posts
On April 14 2010 21:54 DeMusliM wrote: Some people miss my point such as incontrol. The reason terrans used marauders so much is because EVERYTHING else wasn't cost effective or viable - (the rest of the units used from the barracks also got some kinda nerf). You needed marauders to survive early game - and to apply pressure and survive the rush (marines don't cut it dealing 4 damage per hit with guardian shield, and taking alot longer to build). Even before this patch protoss players were learning how to beat it - so you can't just Nerf the only viable strategy, and Buff thor/tank build time when they are already countered hard by the strat terrans are losing to. - It's almost like, creating a strategy to beat something, that already counters your strategy - it's worthless. I made this thread to find out if people were losing in a way they felt unwinnable, or if someone had some success story to share - and, although selfishly i guess - i'm quite happy others feel as lost as i do in this mu, although i would be much happier if there was a cure, or some kinda strat that could atleast go up against what i'm losing to. Have you tried talking to orb about the reaper build time complaint? He might have replays of losing to Terrans who use the 10rax reaper strat, and if that's the case you might be able to analyze those builds and see what you can derive. With one really high Terran level player complaining TvP is hard for T, and one really high level Protoss player complaining TvP is hard for P, there must be something that each side can try to figure out. As a T player myself, one thing I am concerned about is the viability of 1rax FE. I personally also felt that a marauder push after FE was really stale and way too effective, but now it seems that the opposite has occurred, that FE isn't safe any more because of the 4 warp gate rush. It would be nice if Terrans could still safely expand AND Protosses can have breathing room and not worry about a fast marauder push. Not sure how that would work out though. But yeah, could you discuss with orb maybe and see if he has replays of losing to Terrans? | ||
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lew
Belgium205 Posts
On April 14 2010 21:57 Makica wrote: I wish these forums had a highlight on threads for intelligent posts, like the way Battle.net forum threads receive a blue highlight if a Blizzard employee wrote in them. I feel as though this post contributed the most because it has a great mindset for people to take note of. I can understand that it is nice to see what he writes, as a protoss player. It makes you feel like you are winning against terrans because you are skilled (I am not saying that you are not skilled). My question to incontrol: did you play terran after patch 8? So yes: what do you suggest? People suggest to "just EMP the protoss army and you will be fine". They forget 1 thing: you need alot of gas to make a ghost, wich is not possible very early without sacrificing building other units. We got marauders and we got marines (early game), and that's it. Early reaper is an option, indeed. Mech is not an option, immortals will easily destroy it. | ||
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Toolshed
337 Posts
On April 14 2010 21:57 Makica wrote: I wish these forums had a highlight on threads for intelligent posts, like the way Battle.net forum threads receive a blue highlight if a Blizzard employee wrote in them. I feel as though this post contributed the most because it has a great mindset for people to take note of. Actually his post contributed nothing but an absurd statement for which other users would receive a warning. "See the real problem isn't the actual game or the balance of the current build. The problem is terrans have an unreal expectation for this game. They were happy when they could grab 8 scvs and whatever marines they made in that 3 seconds it took to make em all and win. They were happy when marauders came with the strongest ability in the game at tier 1.5." Uhm, no Terran on his right mind was happy with that situation. NEVER. Just because this (imbalance) was there and got abused this does NOT mean that all Terrans on this planet were happy about it. If you look into some older threads you will see that Terrans admitted that this was just wrong and therefore it got changed. Relying on 10 Rax Reaper Cheese and stopping any further balance process because there was a broken mechanic that worked for T is not the way to go. So where is the great contribution you're talking about? Let Protoss dominate Terran for 8 Patches to make up for what happend to them? Although I agree that we should find something that WORKS. And thats what we are here for. Unfortunately nothing has been found yet. | ||
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sadyque
Romania251 Posts
And no i didnt forget mules. Mules just equal the playing field vs chrono probes (1 mule= 3 scvs). | ||
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MorroW
Sweden3522 Posts
and sorry i dont have any advise for u, i dont know a safe way to fe anymore. in patch5 and before i could rax fe then 6-7 i could marauder fe and now i cant fe. i cant do anything and ive tried everything just like u its not really just the early game, later game i feel like toss can simply get far better economy because his units r very cost effective and lategame is just ridiculous, if u reach that toss always wins the only way terran has been able to win this entire beta stage is through early game, as we r getting worse bio and stronger mech we are now in a position where we lose against everything rather than everything being viable. demuslim is one of the best terrans in the world and if he comes here and says this, its not just that he has been winning because he been spoiled wins by imba. terran has been worst race and we r getting changes but demuslim were one of few terrans who fought the odds of the mus. if u dont understand the level of play i suggest u to just agree with what he says and if u disagree i suggest u to be silent and accept ur the one whos missing something, not demuslim On April 14 2010 17:19 3D.Strelok wrote: In TvP now it's like that: if you perfectly know what protoss does ( maphack is on) you stay on 50% chances to win. It turns onto who is better. And if you miss what protoss does you have almost no chances to win. I really want to think it's not imbalance but thing that terran didn't find counters yet. u cant really know what toss is doing early game, if u spend 50 on a scan to see what his doing (assuming he built every single tech building near the nexus including with gateways) sure u know what he do, but u cant stop it because u just lost ur mule. if u dont scan u end up in a scenario where either u get a game rolling ur toss rolls over u because he countered ur build and u had no idea whats coming. simply think its ignorant to say its a 50% chance to win in a mu and this is if u know what toss is doing, a good toss wont let u know that and remember toss ALWAYS knows what ur doing. they r the ones with maphack not us so ur scenario is very unrealistic | ||
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AlundrA
Belgium2 Posts
Seriously what the hell changed from the previous patch ??????? Oh yeah did I alreay mention the patch has changed nothing, marauder slow requires an upgrade................ that's it. You can't kill a protoss anymore with your first couple of marauders, that's really the only thing that has changed. | ||
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Gretorp
United States586 Posts
I've tried going mech pretty aggressively for the past week, and it is very hard to control gas when going mech. then i ran into a warp prism + 2 immortal and lol'ed at my defending tanks. and by lol'ed i mean QQed | ||
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2SCV1cup
69 Posts
On April 14 2010 23:12 AlundrA wrote: Stop crying about this matchup. It's not broken at all. Nothing has changed with the latest patch, only thing different is you can't dominate a toss anymore by rallying marauder into his base early game. Seriously what the hell changed from the previous patch ??????? Oh yeah did I alreay mention the patch has changed nothing, marauder slow requires an upgrade................ that's it. You can't kill a protoss anymore with your first couple of marauders, that's really the only thing that has changed. are u retarded? it was only the imba rushes who let T win (or gain huge advantage), without early pressure P can tech to whatever he wants and enter the late game where army composition of immortal/colo/ht/sentry/zeal counters anything terran can throw at them. | ||
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DeLoAdEr
Japan527 Posts
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sadyque
Romania251 Posts
On April 14 2010 23:12 AlundrA wrote: Stop crying about this matchup. It's not broken at all. Nothing has changed with the latest patch, only thing different is you can't dominate a toss anymore by rallying marauder into his base early game. Seriously what the hell changed from the previous patch ??????? Oh yeah did I alreay mention the patch has changed nothing, marauder slow requires an upgrade................ that's it. You can't kill a protoss anymore with your first couple of marauders, that's really the only thing that has changed. You really dont get it. The only way a T could win before patch was by mara rush or mara fast expand. Both those strats were nerfed. Now u get it? | ||
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MorroW
Sweden3522 Posts
On April 14 2010 23:15 Gretorp wrote: in my experience, tvp has now become very very very boring. you go 4 rax to keep up with the protoss and stay on one base the entire game. tech appropriately such that you don't die to protoss tech since mass immortals and mass collossus are dealt with in 2 different gas/mineral routes(ghost and vikings). don't expand till you're about to run out of minerals, lift CC and expo when minerals start to run out. at end yo uwill still be on either 4 or 5 rax, a factory not producing anything, and a starport, interchanging its add on with the rax. if you go to expo anywhere during this phase, you lose positioning which you desperately need, and you are behind in units. I've tried going mech pretty aggressively for the past week, and it is very hard to control gas when going mech. then i ran into a warp prism + 2 immortal and lol'ed at my defending tanks. and by lol'ed i mean QQed if u r 1base vs 1base he can make dts and force u to turn back, force u to build turrets and force u to waste at least 1 scan. u cant afford this on 1base and u cant get a raven either, u also cant really contain a toss with a turret and u cant assume hes going dt and get turrets every game. on top of that you also cant scout it. and as ur paying for all this shit just to survive he can expand and hes in a great shape. 1base vs 1base toss is stronger, its the truth | ||
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Louder
United States2276 Posts
On April 14 2010 09:52 DeMusliM wrote: Hey! Right - i'm not one to whine, but i'm at a real dead end right now when it comes to this matchup - i've tried literally everything but it feels as if my army is never as cost effective - and never as fast at rebuilding. Before the patch - TvP has always been my least favourite Matchup as i felt i was limited to 1 viable strategy - that being the marauder fe. The patch came and swiftly tore that apart, and after immortals not allowing mech play, it leaves terran with little option but to go BIO that has been nerfed considerably, and doesn't really stand up to a protoss army head on. Now, my main predicament being - a 4-5 warpgate rush (i find this incredibly hard to hold off, i just encountered a game where i went 3 rax, 2 bunkers and died behind my wall to it), or the more simple 3 warpgate immortal -> push/expo and tech to HT's. Before the patch - terrans were still weaker late game vs toss - due to the inability to go heavy units such as thors/tanks, and thus investing alot of money in bio due to it not being totally destroyed by immortals. But right now, i don't have an advantage at any point in the game and feel constantly behind - is their a strategy that i'm missing out on? Or is every Terran feeling the way i do? :S Any suggestions are appreciated - anybody also dwelling on the same situation will make me feel less crap for losing roughly 9/11 games vs protoss in the last few days. I feel pretty much the same way. Protoss can make 3 immortals per minute with chrono boost on a single robotics. Immortals completely force Terran's hand. I only win semi-consistently in this matchup by going FE with a planetary - on maps where that's even viable, like LT - and going mass banshee ASAP. But even that's questionable. | ||
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