EPTTerran vs Protoss - Page 5
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No_Roo
United States905 Posts
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Gretorp
United States586 Posts
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
If the game procedes past the early game (ie. both secure their nat) the matchup feels quite even if not slightly in the terran favor simply because emp is great in big battles and stimmed marauders are so damn fast. The early pushing and the way toss can contain terran are just what is skewed imo and needs to be fixed. Preferrably I just see immortal's nerfed in either build time and/or their damage against buildings. Changing their combat stats would make them too weak lategame and change the PvZ & PvP matchup in a negative way I feel. Adding a upgrade (such as for hardened shield) doesn't seem a good solution to me simply because it wouldn't have a good place at any toss building. At the support bay would make a robo bay without support bay too useless, at the core would mess with warpgate early game and at the robo bay itself doesn't fit flavor wise and would mess with making immortals fast. | ||
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Louder
United States2276 Posts
On April 14 2010 19:31 {88}iNcontroL wrote: i love how they make the grenade a cheap upgrade that takes half a minute to upgrade and everyone starts crying imbalance. Just before this "nerf" terrans were at the top of each division and improving their overall winning percentage by 13% on the EU server while P decreased and Z went up half as much as T. It's pretty simple: Terran can't rely on the marauder early to do all the meta game damage. Terrans abused the shit out of low econ rushes while being able to divide the resources into a powerful rush AND a FE simultaneously. This was OP and had a minor fix. Rushing is still viable but expanding off that rush is slower/more expensive. Macro'ing is JUST as viable but it requires smart preparation in terms of tech path: You no longer can kinda go marauder and kinda go banshee.. you need to commit. Overall this "nerf" just displays the poor state of spoiled terran players. They had their cake and ate it too now they are forced to blue collar it like P had to for 8 patches and Z .. well anyways. Reaper rushes are incredibly powerful. On some maps you can get there before a stalker gets out 100% and usually before a zeal gets out. That kind of harassment is incredible.. in fact P and Z have nothing that compares with that speed/power. Banshees STILL dominate the air. Hiding that tech or switching mid game ROCKS a protoss even one that sees it coming.. still tough to hold. I could go on but I'd rather not since I know point by point many of you will look at this and argue in general: Not enough. See the real problem isn't the actual game or the balance of the current build. The problem is terrans have an unreal expectation for this game. They were happy when they could grab 8 scvs and whatever marines they made in that 3 seconds it took to make em all and win. They were happy when marauders came with the strongest ability in the game at tier 1.5. Now you can't do an invincible rush and marauders are stuck dealing more damage with a better range and more health than anything else at that level BUT they have to upgrade the second cheapest upgrade in the game (2nd only to overlord speed). You guys can cry that immortals are OP. But take them out and roaches/marauders will be MORE of a problem (not less). You guys can complain about FF but none of you have had to deal with banelings as a P or a ling rush. This game is damn near perfect and it has taken me over 1k games to grind through it's issues and watch as it gets closer and closer to perfection.. you won't be successful and you won't do well sticking to what you THINK should work. You have to literally FIND what works.. which means work and practice. That is making a lot of assumptions. Speaking for myself, I've never played TvP one dimensionally. I am a huge advocate of constant experimentation, and try new things pretty much all the time in ladder games. And I have literally never marine/scv all in attacked someone. It's not about me being lazy or spoiled. I don't want immortals removed from the game and I don't think I should just be able to pick a build and win. What I do want is parity. It feels like P can "just pick a build and win" in TvP. I do think Immortals need a little tweaking, especially since with a chrono boost you can get one in 20 seconds, where it takes me 25 to get a marine (2 if I sacrifice 2 marine build cycles and 50/50 to upgrade a barracks with a reactor). The 4-5 gate build is the game breaker for me. Just showing me 4 gates forces me to make 5 or so barracks - and then Protoss builds a nexus while I am catching up on units. Warp gates spit units out really, really fast compared to barracks. You can't say unit cost makes a difference, because of the sentry - most P make a ton of them and spray force fields all over the place. I have replays where I've been FF'd so much my units just slide around and don't do anything. Sentry is the other unit I think needs tweaking. Lots of force field is game breaking. You should not have a unit in the game that can create indestructible terrain that shoves units out of the way on instantiation. For 50/100 you get a unit that can say - sorry you can't micro this battle because I'm going to put 3 layers of walls behind you and force you into my zealots - sorry you can't go down that ramp I've got 4 sentries who will keep it permanently force fielded for the duration of the game - etc. Late game mass temps are pretty sick. EMP just doesn't work vs P who watch the map, use obs and feedback, and play aggressively - and there's really nothing else to neutralize temps short of sacrificing banshees or ravens. As for reapers, what build are you doing where your units are so late? I open 10 rax reaper as a standard on 2 player maps. Protoss more or less always has a stalker started or almost started when the reaper arrives, and the gate gets boosted, so there are about 14 real world seconds to harass with a unit that will die in 3 hits from a zealot if I mess up my micro one bit. And once a stalker is out reapers have to run because stalkers are really, really fast, and I can't even micro around just to escape many times. Sure hidden banshees can shit all over you. But that's hardly something I can rely on, and it's not going to help me get a cost effective army mix against you in an all-things-being-equal scenario, particularly with obs in my base and no proxy buildings. I don't think my knowledge of the game is conclusive enough to say that I believe the above issues to be absolutely 100% true and my assessments accurate and infallible - I just think you are DRAMATICALLY oversimplifying and making quite a lot of assumptions. I would love to hear your thoughts on how a Terran can beat an aggressive 4 warpgate P who expands while spending all his gas on sentry or who goes 1-2 gate + nonstop immortals with expand into HT mass. Short of lucking out with banshees, I don't have any idea. | ||
Nyovne
Netherlands19138 Posts
Thanks to Jinro for this one, totally turned my TvP around. Thor always was my core unit vs Z and now is it as well vs P. Especially with 10 scvs on autorepair along and their special cannon ability vs immortals and collossi. Imho thors totally need to have 2 base armour and their "spell" range changed/increased to their normal ground attack range. Anyways just putting it out there, hope it might help someone ;p. Lategame army of thor marauder ghost banshee hellion marine (1 rax reactor, 3 rax tech, 1 fact tech, 1 fact reactor, 1-2 port tech) has been doing really well for me. The thor + marines counter voidray rushes well, DTs are still -.-, and thor marine does really well vs stalker pushes. The ghost(s) comes out in time for me as well along with some marauders for some P push. 2nd gas around when you start fax should work out right before or after as mins permit. | ||
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Louder
United States2276 Posts
On April 14 2010 23:40 Nyovne wrote: I've been having great succes with fast 1 fact thor with reactor (after fact starts) marines all the time into expo (orbital inbase first before lifting), while adding 2nd rax with tech and ghosts after the cc starts with nonstop rines and thors and then after expanding adding 3 more rax with ghost marauder + 1-2 starport banshee/medivac, metal +att grades and both infantry ups. Thanks to Jinro for this one, totally turned my TvP around. Thor always was my core unit vs Z and now is it as well vs P. Especially with 10 scvs on autorepair along and their special cannon ability vs immortals and collossi. Imho thors totally need to have 2 base armour and their "spell" range changed/increased to their normal ground attack range. Anyways just putting it out there, hope it might help someone ;p. Lategame army of thor marauder ghost banshee hellion marine (1 rax reactor, 3 rax tech, 1 fact tech, 1 fact reactor, 1-2 port tech) has been doing really well for me. The thor + marines counter voidray rushes well, DTs are still -.-, and thor marine does really well vs stalker pushes. The ghost(s) comes out in time for me as well along with some marauders for some P push. 2nd gas around when you start fax should work out right before or after as mins permit. I'm pretty confident that a zealot/sentry/immortal attack would destroy this. 3 Immortals focus firing a Thor will possibly kill it before you even start repairing. And pulling SCVs to repair costs mining time + spends minerals actively. | ||
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XCLuSive
Canada121 Posts
Banshees can force the protoss to stay in base massing stalkers and probably observers; while you can make a tech switch, or even take the time to defend an expansion? just an idea... | ||
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Diaspora
United States140 Posts
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
@ diaspora toss always opens fast cyber against terran, just for the possibility of a fast stalker. After cyber completion and before the stalker finishes terran has a gap of seeing what build the toss will open with, fast immortal or multiple gateways. The problem is that even if you do see that it's still nearly impossible to counter. | ||
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MorroW
Sweden3522 Posts
On April 14 2010 23:58 Markwerf wrote: @ louder, you got the working of chronoboost wrong. Chronoboost boosts production by 50%, in other words build time becomes 66% (1 / 1.5) of the original and NOT 50%. Thus boosted immortals take 26.7 secs. @ diaspora toss always opens fast cyber against terran, just for the possibility of a fast stalker. After cyber completion and before the stalker finishes terran has a gap of seeing what build the toss will open with, fast immortal or multiple gateways. The problem is that even if you do see that it's still nearly impossible to counter. it doesnt matter immortal still gets produced the absolute quickest in the entire game for their mineral/gas cost. when they r done they dont need any upgrades and against a terran early game they dont really have any counter, except for marines but they build too slow to be able to be a threat of any kind early game anyway. chrono boost is just the cherry on top of it all, it would still produce too fast without it im pretty confident blizzard will add an upgrade for force field or increase the cost of it and im also confident they will increase the build time of immortals im really glad that louder knows so much about this mu and says all this, i agree with all u said early game toss dont need to upgrade anything, while terran has a lot of low tier upgrades thats almost a must to put up a good fight money-wise | ||
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evotech
48 Posts
Well see how next patch goes, in the meanwhile, just try to hold on .P | ||
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febreze
167 Posts
On April 14 2010 23:40 Nyovne wrote: I've been having great succes with fast 1 fact thor with reactor (after fact starts) marines all the time into expo (orbital inbase first before lifting), while adding 2nd rax with tech and ghosts after the cc starts with nonstop rines and thors and then after expanding adding 3 more rax with ghost marauder + 1-2 starport banshee/medivac, metal +att grades and both infantry ups. Thanks to Jinro for this one, totally turned my TvP around. Thor always was my core unit vs Z and now is it as well vs P. Especially with 10 scvs on autorepair along and their special cannon ability vs immortals and collossi. Imho thors totally need to have 2 base armour and their "spell" range changed/increased to their normal ground attack range. Anyways just putting it out there, hope it might help someone ;p. Lategame army of thor marauder ghost banshee hellion marine (1 rax reactor, 3 rax tech, 1 fact tech, 1 fact reactor, 1-2 port tech) has been doing really well for me. The thor + marines counter voidray rushes well, DTs are still -.-, and thor marine does really well vs stalker pushes. The ghost(s) comes out in time for me as well along with some marauders for some P push. 2nd gas around when you start fax should work out right before or after as mins permit. Thank you. Can't wait to try this out.  | ||
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Chen
United States6344 Posts
On April 14 2010 22:27 lew wrote: I can understand that it is nice to see what he writes, as a protoss player. It makes you feel like you are winning against terrans because you are skilled (I am not saying that you are not skilled). My question to incontrol: did you play terran after patch 8? So yes: what do you suggest? People suggest to "just EMP the protoss army and you will be fine". They forget 1 thing: you need alot of gas to make a ghost, wich is not possible very early without sacrificing building other units. We got marauders and we got marines (early game), and that's it. Early reaper is an option, indeed. Mech is not an option, immortals will easily destroy it. all races mine gas at the same rate, so why does the Terran automatically get to somehow use an army that costs less gas and get away with it? Toss needs: zeals(0 gas) Stalkers(50 gas), Sentries(100 gas), Immortals(100gas) Terran needs: marines (0gas), Marauders(25 gas), Ghost(150 gas) if you arnt building ghosts you are spending a fraction of what the toss spends on his army. does it not make sense to any of you that a more tech heavy/gas intensive army SHOULD beat a lower tech one? If a Stalker/sentry/immortal combo can't beat pure marine-marauder, THAT would be a glaring imbalance. Ghost academy is cheaper and lower on the tech tree than robo bay, there is no reason that you should not have ghosts when he has immortals knocking on your door. Now on the other hand if Terran gets ghosts EMP's the entire toss army, focuses the immortals with his marauders and STILL loses, then we may have a problem It should be impossible for the toss to stop EMP that early in the game since ghost cant be sniped before instant EMP goes off. EMP negates immortal hardened shield AND all sentry abilities, making them basically a waste of 100 gas. | ||
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Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
On April 14 2010 23:45 Louder wrote: I'm pretty confident that a zealot/sentry/immortal attack would destroy this. 3 Immortals focus firing a Thor will possibly kill it before you even start repairing. And pulling SCVs to repair costs mining time + spends minerals actively. Louder is right. Thor builds are garbage TvP. If you can miraculously expand while doing a tank build, you're actually in great shape. Standard ghostmech is very very strong and tank/hellion/ghost/turret is so ridiculously good midgame/lategame. The problem is you can't get there if you open bio because you're committed to a different tech path, and you can't get an expo up if you open with it because you're so vulnerable without the cliff/range advantages. I happen to agree with you, Morrow. Force field probably will be nerfed (which will make PvZ a lot easier early game for Z.) and immortals will be changed in some way, probably tech level or hardened shields will be an upgrade. Both of those would probably work. | ||
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fulmetljaket
482 Posts
On April 14 2010 23:58 Markwerf wrote: @ louder, you got the working of chronoboost wrong. Chronoboost boosts production by 50%, in other words build time becomes 66% (1 / 1.5) of the original and NOT 50%. Thus boosted immortals take 26.7 secs. @ diaspora toss always opens fast cyber against terran, just for the possibility of a fast stalker. After cyber completion and before the stalker finishes terran has a gap of seeing what build the toss will open with, fast immortal or multiple gateways. The problem is that even if you do see that it's still nearly impossible to counter. where do you get this? [bolded text] because tho im a terran player, i do believe the tooltip for chrono read something to this effect, "can be casted on buildings. causes affected buildings to operate 50% faster for 20 seconds." i dont think that it says anything about 50% of the 'originial' even so, i dont know wher eyou get this figure of 66%. if the build time is 100%, and this boosts production by 50%, pretty simple math knows that 50% of 100 is 50.... im not saying your wrong, just asking for explanation | ||
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Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
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Bibdy
United States3481 Posts
If you build 2 Probes, and Chrono, you get them in 24 seconds, not 34. If you Chrono a Zealot, you get it in 23 seconds, not 33. If you Chrono a Stalker, you get it in 32 seconds, not 42. And if you Chrono an Immortal, you get it in 40 seconds, not 50. And if you think nerfing Force Field is such a great idea, what exactly would you like the big flag in front of our base to say? "Welcoming all Zerg, particularly Banelings! Come join the party!" | ||
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Chen
United States6344 Posts
On April 15 2010 00:28 fulmetljaket wrote: where do you get this? [bolded text] because tho im a terran player, i do believe the tooltip for chrono read something to this effect, "can be casted on buildings. causes affected buildings to operate 50% faster for 20 seconds." i dont think that it says anything about 50% of the 'originial' even so, i dont know wher eyou get this figure of 66%. if the build time is 100%, and this boosts production by 50%, pretty simple math knows that 50% of 100 is 50.... im not saying your wrong, just asking for explanation Orb actually timed it, Chrono Immortals come out in ~27 seconds, not 20. 40/1.5=26.667 | ||
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Ganondorf
Italy600 Posts
I'm not a high level player (high gold league right now) so my experience is different, i can open with banshees/viking and get at least map control while harassing, or open with 3 rax (2 tech 1 reactor), i'll never open with a fe before getting map control in some way. I don't even use reapers because i don't really like that kind of rush, all those resources for minimal harassment, and they become useless afterwards. If you read my posts yesterday i have an update, finding some more decent protoss players it seems, they make it harder to snipe obs with vikings because they protect them better by putting them on top and a little behind their army. Comes down to being able to snipe it anyway with good timing i guess, and sometimes i won't be able to do that because my losses would be too high. Still banshee/viking gives at least map control and they both counter immortals. Vikings in ground mode destroy immortals, in the last game i played i just landed all my vikings on top of the immortals while the battle was going on, the immortals just disappeared :D I'll see what happens once i get to play vs platinum protoss. | ||
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MorroW
Sweden3522 Posts
On April 15 2010 00:40 Bibdy wrote: However you want to think of it, Chrono Boost always takes 10 seconds off the current build time. Why? Because you're doing 30 seconds of 'work' in 20 seconds. If you build 2 Probes, and Chrono, you get them in 24 seconds, not 34. If you Chrono a Zealot, you get it in 23 seconds, not 33. If you Chrono a Stalker, you get it in 32 seconds, not 42. And if you Chrono an Immortal, you get it in 40 seconds, not 50. And if you think nerfing Force Field is such a great idea, what exactly would you like the big flag in front of our base to say? "Welcoming all Zerg, particularly Banelings! Come join the party!" immortals take 40 seconds to build, not 50. its true, an immortal takes 40 seconds to build, its sick and thats why i think they will add more to it xd | ||
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