EPTTerran vs Protoss - Page 7
| Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy |
|
threehundred
Canada911 Posts
| ||
|
DeMusliM
United Kingdom401 Posts
A terran HAS to make a heavy tier 1-1.5 army just to survive the gateway push - with bunkers the whole lot, pumping every resource he has into this. Meanwhile the protoss can easily expo and out resource the terran - this is the problem - that the terran cannot survive early without getting some kinda force together, while the protoss can can tech even, while pumping out 4 warpgates and immortals while the terrans later tech units make little difference - (Immortals counter all ground terran has, and HT's counter anything that counters the immortal - see the problem late game?). And i'm not even talking about late game, the problem for terrans right now is surviving the early game without being too far behind mid-late. People who fail to see this are enjoying the easy life of 4 warpgate rushing terrans and winning with relative ease. I spoke with several top protoss players on Europe who all agreed that the MU right now is very heavily favoured towards the protoss - and the only way they lose is if they make a big mistake micro/macro wise or don't scout (pretty hard not to scout with a obs!). | ||
|
MorroW
Sweden3522 Posts
On April 15 2010 01:44 deo.deo wrote: haha, cant wait until the koreans really bite into the game. all those little whine threads will be shaken up completely. as it is now im pretty sure sc2 wont last in korea, why? koreans love hard games and sc2 doesnt qualify for that afaik :x On April 15 2010 01:54 Prozen wrote: Have you guys tried going 4 Rax no gas/addons FE? You build only marines and you FE while you build about 3 bunkers to defend your nat. It's been very successful for me lately, haven't lost with it yet. (Top 10 Plat Protosses). The problem with the build though is that you HAVE to make sure the Protoss is going Immortals, otherwise he can just go Collosi and rape your army rofl. It doesn't work too well on maps with two chokepoints sadly, but it worked well fro me on maps like Steppes of War. this is basically how i was playing before patch 6 was out, it even raped colosus then the sad part atm is that it doesnt work now, sentry -2 dmg along with immortal and zea meatshield fucking hard rape this build or they can make fast colosus which also rape it. they can even go mass zea sentry and rape it too :/ | ||
|
PanzerDragoon
United States822 Posts
On April 15 2010 01:47 Mirhi wrote: Why do all the Terrans in this thread expect a T1 army to beat a T2 army? If Protoss has Immortals, you should have ghosts. Protoss tech tree: Gateway ---> Cybernetics Core ----> Robotics Facility ----> Immortal Terran tech tree: Barracks ---> Ghost Academy ---> Ghost It's even faster. Have you seen how fast Immortals die to Ghosts + Tanks? What is wrong with going 2-3 Barracks and Factory units? What is wrong with relying on EMP to counter Immortals? This type of play is no more micro intensive than Forcefield + Storm, and much easier in tech to get. Note to Terran players: You have a 75 energy ability that takes no research that halves almost every Protoss unit's health in a battle, and takes all energy. It also eliminates hardened shell. Why do you think you can get away with not using it when massing bio? It'd be like a Protoss complaining about Tanks and Thors while not building an Immortal. You have a hard counter to Immortal. It's called a ghost. You cannot have any sort of Ghost/Tank army on 1 base at the time that protoss would have sentry/immortal/zealot. Ghost/Tank takes an insane amount of gas. It could be possible if you could fast expo and take 4 gas quickly, but you can't because P can knock down a FE very easily. The toss army takes a ton of gas, but they can FE much easily because T can't do much to stop it right now. | ||
|
MadLag
Poland82 Posts
| ||
|
Mirhi
United States389 Posts
On April 15 2010 02:02 PanzerDragoon wrote: You cannot have any sort of Ghost/Tank army on 1 base at the time that protoss would have sentry/immortal/zealot. Ghost/Tank takes an insane amount of gas. It could be possible if you could fast expo and take 4 gas quickly, but you can't because P can knock down a FE very easily. The toss army takes a ton of gas, but they can FE much easily because T can't do much to stop it right now. The whole point is, you can, and should. Sentries take 100 gas, Immortals take 100 gas, Stalkers take 50 gas. I think the reason many Terrans get this impression is because of the habit of only using 1 gas for far too long. I also challenge people to produce replays where a Protoss fast expo'd against a Terran that scouted it without repercussions. That leaves a player in such a state of vulnerability to both Banshees and a mixed ground army push. I am trying to figure out why Terrans are complaining this much about an 80 second 100/100 upgrade. You can accomplish the same map control with reapers. | ||
|
deo.deo
135 Posts
On April 15 2010 02:02 MorroW wrote: as it is now im pretty sure sc2 wont last in korea, why? koreans love hard games and sc2 doesnt qualify for that afaik :x this just really reminds me of this article about xds~grrr... going to korea, before he went there terra was thought of as being underused and underpowered. Arriving in Seoul he played an unknown player who beat him 9-1 (something like that )in PvT it turns out that this player will be slayersboxer. This is really a long time ago so I might be wrong on the details.... anyhoooo my point is give it time.. trying out different things, unit combination, strategies might be a good way to go in the beta... of course you can also just wait until someone else does it and take the meantime to create new posts on teamliquid... | ||
|
JTPROG
United States254 Posts
On April 14 2010 19:31 {88}iNcontroL wrote: i love how they make the grenade a cheap upgrade that takes half a minute to upgrade and everyone starts crying imbalance. Just before this "nerf" terrans were at the top of each division and improving their overall winning percentage by 13% on the EU server while P decreased and Z went up half as much as T. It's pretty simple: Terran can't rely on the marauder early to do all the meta game damage. Terrans abused the shit out of low econ rushes while being able to divide the resources into a powerful rush AND a FE simultaneously. This was OP and had a minor fix. Rushing is still viable but expanding off that rush is slower/more expensive. Macro'ing is JUST as viable but it requires smart preparation in terms of tech path: You no longer can kinda go marauder and kinda go banshee.. you need to commit. Overall this "nerf" just displays the poor state of spoiled terran players. They had their cake and ate it too now they are forced to blue collar it like P had to for 8 patches and Z .. well anyways. Reaper rushes are incredibly powerful. On some maps you can get there before a stalker gets out 100% and usually before a zeal gets out. That kind of harassment is incredible.. in fact P and Z have nothing that compares with that speed/power. Banshees STILL dominate the air. Hiding that tech or switching mid game ROCKS a protoss even one that sees it coming.. still tough to hold. I could go on but I'd rather not since I know point by point many of you will look at this and argue in general: Not enough. See the real problem isn't the actual game or the balance of the current build. The problem is terrans have an unreal expectation for this game. They were happy when they could grab 8 scvs and whatever marines they made in that 3 seconds it took to make em all and win. They were happy when marauders came with the strongest ability in the game at tier 1.5. Now you can't do an invincible rush and marauders are stuck dealing more damage with a better range and more health than anything else at that level BUT they have to upgrade the second cheapest upgrade in the game (2nd only to overlord speed). You guys can cry that immortals are OP. But take them out and roaches/marauders will be MORE of a problem (not less). You guys can complain about FF but none of you have had to deal with banelings as a P or a ling rush. This game is damn near perfect and it has taken me over 1k games to grind through it's issues and watch as it gets closer and closer to perfection.. you won't be successful and you won't do well sticking to what you THINK should work. You have to literally FIND what works.. which means work and practice. No offense but this kind of makes you look like an idiot. Yes all terrans are spoiled and just want free wins, and none of us are trying everything possible to achieve at least a 50% win rate vs toss, you got us. To think you of all people would be slightly less biased. | ||
|
k!llua
Australia895 Posts
A BETA. NOT the final product. play some other games in beta and realise just how fucking lucky you are to be playing something as good as this in a beta. seriously, think about it. if diablo 2 still got a patch, how well supported do you think sc2 will be in the first six months after release? god. give it time before you shut the game down. | ||
|
shinosai
United States1577 Posts
On April 15 2010 01:54 Prozen wrote: Have you guys tried going 4 Rax no gas/addons FE? You build only marines and you FE while you build about 3 bunkers to defend your nat. It's been very successful for me lately, haven't lost with it yet. (Top 10 Plat Protosses). The problem with the build though is that you HAVE to make sure the Protoss is going Immortals, otherwise he can just go Collosi and rape your army rofl. It doesn't work too well on maps with two chokepoints sadly, but it worked well fro me on maps like Steppes of War. I don't see how this build could ever work versus someone that builds a sentry. I mean, hey, I just beat a rank 6 protoss with my marine/banshee strategy. Doesn't prove that it's a viable strategy though. | ||
|
iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
You fucking forget: I played protoss THIS entire time. I played protoss when we were the only race declining with a win % while terran had a near 15% win boost. I WORKED at it and did everything I could. I made 1 bitch post where I said "blizzard has a week" but after that even I realized I was an idiot and found a way. I sit on a vent with multiple terran players who complain on a daily basis about how impossible this is. I come into this channel and hear a group of terran players me-owing like cats about how they need help from papa blizzard or else they will cry more tears. LITERALLY the only change they made in this last patch was making the grenade upgradable instead of FREE and everyone thinks the matchup is broken? That CAN'T be right. Fucking OP is talking about how you HAVE to go marauders which you can't do cost effectively now because of 100 minerals/100 gas? That isn't right guys... it is the difference between 1 marauder. Do you guys actually play this game? I haven't seen a battle where had he had that 1 more marauder the entire game would have swishedddddddddd in his favor each time. And don't tell me the upgrade time smashes the meta game either. If you can't 1 rax marauder pressure a P WHILE EXPANDING anymore and you think it is the games fault then guess what? You need to change the way you play. And to answer the deflecting people: YES I've played terran since the patch. I coach several platinum protoss players and I TvP them almost daily: AND WIN. Reaper harrass is still as strong as ever. Mixing tanks late game STILL as strong as ever.. no protoss has 10+ immortals late game and if they do you're an IDIOT for not scouting it and going bio + laughing at their easily countered tech choice. Mass templar Louder? Serious? This isn't new.. SCBW had mass templar only they were BETTER. I cannot fathom every terran getting their wish inthis thread...the would be in shambles. And you guys can bitch about my "generalizing" when I regard most of you as "terran players." That is fine but uh, how many complaining in here don't play terran? 1? 2? Probably a few.. but I'd venture a guess this is a thread where mostly terran players vent their complaints about the mu spanning from FF to templars to immortals to collossus late game to blah blah blah.. THEY AREN'T REMOVING PROTOSS GUYS. SORRY. | ||
|
HubertFelix
France631 Posts
On April 15 2010 02:21 k!llua wrote: as it is now sc2 is a beta. A BETA. NOT the final product. god. give it time before you shut the game down. Stop this. Players in the beta have to test the bugs and the balance to make a good final product. They have to report the bugs and the imbalance. The real answer is "post pure whine posts on battle.net". | ||
|
Taefox
1533 Posts
On April 15 2010 01:47 Mirhi wrote: Why do all the Terrans in this thread expect a T1 army to beat a T2 army? If Protoss has Immortals, you should have ghosts. Protoss tech tree: Gateway ---> Cybernetics Core ----> Robotics Facility ----> Immortal Terran tech tree: Barracks ---> Ghost Academy ---> Ghost It's even faster. Have you seen how fast Immortals die to Ghosts + Tanks? What is wrong with going 2-3 Barracks and Factory units? What is wrong with relying on EMP to counter Immortals? This type of play is no more micro intensive than Forcefield + Storm, and much easier in tech to get. Note to Terran players: You have a 75 energy ability that takes no research that halves almost every Protoss unit's health in a battle, and takes all energy. It also eliminates hardened shell. Why do you think you can get away with not using it when massing bio? It'd be like a Protoss complaining about Tanks and Thors while not building an Immortal. You have a hard counter to Immortal. It's called a ghost. How many time did you play TvP after patch 8 and get raped as long as a Terran ? lol just make 2 or 3 ghosts and win the game ? | ||
|
Prozen
United States338 Posts
On April 15 2010 02:34 shinosai wrote: I don't see how this build could ever work versus someone that builds a sentry. I mean, hey, I just beat a rank 6 protoss with my marine/banshee strategy. Doesn't prove that it's a viable strategy though. Actually, how about you give it a try instead of theorycrafting? It worked against a Protoss who had about 3 Immortals, 4 Stalkers, 3 Zealots, and 2 sentries. I'm pretty sure you know who Azz is? It worked on him. | ||
|
shinosai
United States1577 Posts
On April 15 2010 02:41 Prozen wrote: Actually, how about you give it a try instead of theorycrafting? It worked against a Protoss who had about 3 Immortals, 4 Stalkers, 3 Zealots, and 2 sentries. I'm pretty sure you know who Azz is? It worked on him. I've played azz a few times. I find it surprising that it works vs sentry and immortals tanking. Can I see the replay? | ||
|
shinosai
United States1577 Posts
| ||
|
Prozen
United States338 Posts
and Granted the game on Metalopolis, Azz went 5 Warpgate push allin, but it does defend against Immortals quite nicely. | ||
|
Seacow
Sweden99 Posts
On April 15 2010 02:37 {88}iNcontroL wrote: ~ Yes, I'm sure Morrow and Demuslim just aren't trying hard enough, clearly the beta is 100% balanced at the moment and no further changes need to be made before release. | ||
|
kasumimi
Greece460 Posts
And all this because concussive shells requires a research now? Oo ok | ||
|
Mirhi
United States389 Posts
On April 15 2010 02:37 {88}iNcontroL wrote: + Show Spoiler + @JTPROG: me of all people? You fucking forget: I played protoss THIS entire time. I played protoss when we were the only race declining with a win % while terran had a near 15% win boost. I WORKED at it and did everything I could. I made 1 bitch post where I said "blizzard has a week" but after that even I realized I was an idiot and found a way. I sit on a vent with multiple terran players who complain on a daily basis about how impossible this is. I come into this channel and hear a group of terran players me-owing like cats about how they need help from papa blizzard or else they will cry more tears. LITERALLY the only change they made in this last patch was making the grenade upgradable instead of FREE and everyone thinks the matchup is broken? That CAN'T be right. Fucking OP is talking about how you HAVE to go marauders which you can't do cost effectively now because of 100 minerals/100 gas? That isn't right guys... it is the difference between 1 marauder. Do you guys actually play this game? I haven't seen a battle where had he had that 1 more marauder the entire game would have swishedddddddddd in his favor each time. And don't tell me the upgrade time smashes the meta game either. If you can't 1 rax marauder pressure a P WHILE EXPANDING anymore and you think it is the games fault then guess what? You need to change the way you play. And to answer the deflecting people: YES I've played terran since the patch. I coach several platinum protoss players and I TvP them almost daily: AND WIN. Reaper harrass is still as strong as ever. Mixing tanks late game STILL as strong as ever.. no protoss has 10+ immortals late game and if they do you're an IDIOT for not scouting it and going bio + laughing at their easily countered tech choice. Mass templar Louder? Serious? This isn't new.. SCBW had mass templar only they were BETTER. I cannot fathom every terran getting their wish inthis thread...the would be in shambles. And you guys can bitch about my "generalizing" when I regard most of you as "terran players." That is fine but uh, how many complaining in here don't play terran? 1? 2? Probably a few.. but I'd venture a guess this is a thread where mostly terran players vent their complaints about the mu spanning from FF to templars to immortals to collossus late game to blah blah blah.. THEY AREN'T REMOVING PROTOSS GUYS. SORRY. QFT. This. Amen. | ||
| ||
