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Hey!
Right - i'm not one to whine, but i'm at a real dead end right now when it comes to this matchup - i've tried literally everything but it feels as if my army is never as cost effective - and never as fast at rebuilding.
Before the patch - TvP has always been my least favourite Matchup as i felt i was limited to 1 viable strategy - that being the marauder fe. The patch came and swiftly tore that apart, and after immortals not allowing mech play, it leaves terran with little option but to go BIO that has been nerfed considerably, and doesn't really stand up to a protoss army head on.
Now, my main predicament being - a 4-5 warpgate rush (i find this incredibly hard to hold off, i just encountered a game where i went 3 rax, 2 bunkers and died behind my wall to it), or the more simple 3 warpgate immortal -> push/expo and tech to HT's.
Before the patch - terrans were still weaker late game vs toss - due to the inability to go heavy units such as thors/tanks, and thus investing alot of money in bio due to it not being totally destroyed by immortals. But right now, i don't have an advantage at any point in the game and feel constantly behind - is their a strategy that i'm missing out on? Or is every Terran feeling the way i do? :S
Any suggestions are appreciated - anybody also dwelling on the same situation will make me feel less crap for losing roughly 9/11 games vs protoss in the last few days.
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have you tried the ghost?
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This belongs in the Strategy forums. And you'll need to have some replays to show the issue you're talking about and allow people to see what mistakes you're making and help you fix them.
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I feel about the same way. It feels like I'm constantly struggling to keep up with a toss's unit production just to stay alive - let alone get map control or put pressure on him. I keep stupidly thinking that I can take an expo earlier on too to maybe get an advantage that way, but it isn't possible if the toss stays on one base because he'll just have more stuff than you when he pushes and you die. Going fast ghosts to stop the immortals doesn't even seem like it works very well, because when you make ghosts so early on it's just eating into the rest of your army, and even with taking out the immortal shields, you still just don't have enough to stop pushes.
I've started playing tvp with the idea of.. I'm not expoing until the toss does. But then I still get run over when we take our expansions at the same time. S: So I dunno.
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It's DeMusliM you idiots. One of the best terrans in EU. Of course he's tried ghosts and of course he doesn't need any replays.
I've been noticing since this patch that terrans have been getting raped by protoss 4 gate pushes. Like you mentioned, this is largely due to marauder early fast expand not being viable anymore (unless the protoss goofs up with his timing push or isn't aggressive).
About the only terran I've seen in streams still doing well against protoss is CauthonLuck. He seems to do well with a few early harrass strategies while building a mass bio army at home. Have you checked out his KoTH showmatches?
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DeMuslim is a high-level player in SC2. I think that thread by Kennigit said that high-level players do not need to provide replays iirc. Anyway, I think the best build for this patch in TvP is to go for a 4 rax FE and just make 3 bunkers then transition into Rauders + Medivacs + Vikings if you see Collosi. The thing with the FE build though is you HAVE to make sure the Protoss is going Immortals, otherwise you die. That's how you counter the 3 warpgate immortal -> push. However, against the 4-5 warpgate rush (usually Stalkers with blink), it's a more difficult predicament. I think going 2 Rax pumping Marauders with fast EMP (around 29-33ish pop) counters both builds. Try not to FE too much against Protoss unless you're sure he's going Immortals. Then go for that 4 rax marine only FE build. I know you're a high level player so you probably won't think what I'm saying will work, but yeah try it out.
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Can't wait to see the sparks fly when orb sees this thread. 
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On April 14 2010 10:18 HCastorp wrote:Can't wait to see the sparks fly when orb sees this thread.
lol I was thinking the same thing...
+ Show Spoiler +you just HAD to beat me to it...
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Osaka27140 Posts
Please read the posting guidelines before making a thread.
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ah ok posted it in the wrong place, my bad.
But yeh, the last game i played i went 3 rax no expo attempt, had 7 rines 5 rauders and a ghost sat in bunkers/behind my wall - and he managed to break in and cripple me to the point i had to bring all my scvs. I was literally shocked that the fact i was using every resource on units not even teching and i couldn't stop this push - like surely something is wrong with that?
As for any possible comments about micro, i didn't lose 1 unit, not even my scouting scv i knew exactly what he was doing - but i couldn't counter it. Eventually he just got DTs with an expo up and i was out of the running. It feels as if there is literally no viable strategy to go right now, and it's just go a weird strat and hope the protoss makes mistakes - i'm just not enjoying this matchup at all - i really hope the next patch comes soon, as i know there is no miracle cure to this without one.
- By the way, does anyone else feel that after 8 patches, we're kinda circling round obvious problems and leaving them be, rather than fixing the the main bulk of things?
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Osaka27140 Posts
Moved to strat section, and PMed.
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On April 14 2010 10:22 DeMusliM wrote:
ah ok posted it in the wrong place, my bad.
But yeh, the last game i played i went 3 rax no expo attempt, had 7 rines 5 rauders and a ghost sat in bunkers/behind my wall - and he managed to break in and cripple me to the point i had to bring all my scvs. I was literally shocked that the fact i was using every resource on units not even teching and i couldn't stop this push - like surely something is wrong with that?
As for any possible comments about micro, i didn't lose 1 unit, not even my scouting scv i knew exactly what he was doing - but i couldn't counter it. Eventually he just got DTs with an expo up and i was out of the running. It feels as if there is literally no viable strategy to go right now, and it's just go a weird strat and hope the protoss makes mistakes - i'm just not enjoying this matchup at all - i really hope the next patch comes soon, as i know there is no miracle cure to this without one.
- By the way, does anyone else feel that after 8 patches, we're kinda circling round obvious problems and leaving them be, rather than fixing the the main bulk of things?
I would have to agree, especially since I am a toss player. First of all, with the recent patch, terran has NO chance to pressure early anymore, and that is the main problem for protoss... they can simply sit back on 1gate and instantly buff up to 4gate and pump out units without need for an expansion for as long as needed, and STILL have plenty of money to expand.
Though emp is very effective, a heavy stalker army can simply run away and harass very effectively without early marauder slow, which definately puts them behind in tech.
I thought pvt was fairly better balanced before the marauder nerf, and I am not sure exactly what can be done, but early toss aggression is definitely a bit too strong.
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I agree, because even if you manage to stop the early protoss attack, they can still expand while you are stuck turtling in your base. I think the main problem with this matchup is that we're not allowed to make hellions, tanks, or thors because of the immortal.
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Force Field, Warpgate, Immortal's Hardened Shield and ridiculous 50 damage against armored units made 4 gates 1 robo push extremely difficult for Terran to win while relatively easier for Protoss pull it out. Something must be done in balance wise in my opinion. Sure, it's not impossible to win against this strategy, but when even top players like DeMusliM says T needs to hope for P to make mistake to win shows that something is seriously wrong here.
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I saved you the trouble of some replays
Equilateral is a pretty strong (top of his division) plat player - by no means the very best but a very strong, decent mechanical player
I am a middle level plat player at best
Watch me absolutely destroy him when he FE's. Twice.
not to mention this is extremely difficult to defend even if you dont fast expand - note that i deliberately didnt make early units (in fact the chronod immortal comes in time for a mara rush) because i didnt scout any reaper rush or anything like that (though to be fair, the true build order makes 2 stalkers)
Note my poor macro and mechanics also, missing chronoboosts (and being unsure what to chronoboost a lot of the time aswell, i THINK i should be boosting warptech so i can drop gates earlier and then maybe do the first push using the pylon in the middle of the map instead) not only that, i dont even push with my first immortal + 2 stalkers leaving them lulling around not doing anything
By no means are either of us 100% perfect but you get the gist of it.
Oh, and voidray rush is lul.
http://www.sc2rc.com/index.php/replay/show/1330
http://www.sc2rc.com/index.php/replay/show/1331
edit: oh btw @ some of the eu players on this thread
I'm looking for more practise partners (a lot of mine have gone inactive) - so please pm me, hassybaby.hasybaby is me (its a shared acc but 99% of the time its me)
edit:
oh as a little kicker, remember this thread?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=119468
I pm'ed day9 also.
No answer as of yet.
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TvP is broke now. pre-patch this MU was pretty balanced because terran can put on early pressure to slow down toss. Now marauder is nerfed because its boring to play with, albeit pretty effective in all MU. The early pressure on toss is gone because of the upgradable concussive shells and now toss is doing just fine with 50 dmg per shot on marauders and 50% cut-down to marines' firepower w/ guardian shield and its free +1 armor. and all the tech-lab, reactor, fac, starport thing and tons of upgrades are gas heavy, which requires big time to pay off. I'm quite lost what are we supposed to do?
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TvP is easy, all you need to do is take the two corner expansions on steppes of war, keep your fingers crossed he doesn't scout them the entire game, and win an extremely close game by the skin of your teeth.
:D
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On April 14 2010 10:07 tubs wrote:
It's DeMusliM you idiots. One of the best terrans in EU. Of course he's tried ghosts and of course he doesn't need any replays.
hahahahah this made my day ^
DeMusliM,
I watch your games as much as I can. And obviously, you have a strong grasp of the game as can be seen by your build orders and economy/production. However, I would like to see more harass tactics and drops! You are extremely great at building the army and getting one, but more creative thought must be put in to use that army in the most advantageous method possible.
You say you are having trouble because fighting head on with the Toss army is difficult. Well, if you are simply looking for an answer in how to fight head on with the Toss army, anyone can tell you that you just need more men, upgrades, tier 3, etc.
But my other answer to your question would be to not simply focus for the inevitable Blob Vs. Blob moment of the game. It is not only about getting there the firstest with mostest.
Haha I wanted to give you technical advice and build orders but you're DeMusliM.
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its broken match up ben just gotta wait till they patch it
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On April 14 2010 10:43 BrTarolg wrote:I saved you the trouble of some replays Equilateral is a pretty strong (top of his division) plat player - by no means the very best but a very strong, decent mechanical player I am a middle level plat player at best Watch me absolutely destroy him when he FE's. Twice. not to mention this is extremely difficult to defend even if you dont fast expand - note that i deliberately didnt make early units (in fact the chronod immortal comes in time for a mara rush) because i didnt scout any reaper rush or anything like that (though to be fair, the true build order makes 2 stalkers) Note my poor macro and mechanics also, missing chronoboosts (and being unsure what to chronoboost a lot of the time aswell, i THINK i should be boosting warptech so i can drop gates earlier and then maybe do the first push using the pylon in the middle of the map instead) not only that, i dont even push with my first immortal + 2 stalkers leaving them lulling around not doing anything By no means are either of us 100% perfect but you get the gist of it. Oh, and voidray rush is lul. http://www.sc2rc.com/index.php/replay/show/1330http://www.sc2rc.com/index.php/replay/show/1331edit: oh btw @ some of the eu players on this thread I'm looking for more practise partners (a lot of mine have gone inactive) - so please pm me, hassybaby.hasybaby is me (its a shared acc but 99% of the time its me) edit: oh as a little kicker, remember this thread? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=119468I pm'ed day9 also. No answer as of yet.
The purpose of a one base timing push is to punish greedy FE players no? I don't see whats wrong with that. If he had done one base play and still had no way of defending 4gate robo then that's a different problem...
also I don't believe getting stim over conc shells is the right choice (for the first game). He won't even have medevacs to heal the marauders and he could have picked off an immortal and like 2 stalkers if he had his conc shell upgrade done. Conc shells cost 50 less min/gas and finish 60 seconds faster.
For the second game instead of 1 tech lab 2 reactor rax, 2 tech lab 1 reactor (or even 2 tech lab and 2 reg rax) would be better. Building a second bunker would have helped.
Perhaps instead of holding units at his own ramp he needs to put them at your ramp to delay the reinforcing pylon?
I'll be sure to try this in my games today
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Yes, I feel the same way. I've been having trouble TvP against computer.
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On April 14 2010 10:22 DeMusliM wrote:
ah ok posted it in the wrong place, my bad.
But yeh, the last game i played i went 3 rax no expo attempt, had 7 rines 5 rauders and a ghost sat in bunkers/behind my wall - and he managed to break in and cripple me to the point i had to bring all my scvs. I was literally shocked that the fact i was using every resource on units not even teching and i couldn't stop this push - like surely something is wrong with that?
As for any possible comments about micro, i didn't lose 1 unit, not even my scouting scv i knew exactly what he was doing - but i couldn't counter it. Eventually he just got DTs with an expo up and i was out of the running. It feels as if there is literally no viable strategy to go right now, and it's just go a weird strat and hope the protoss makes mistakes - i'm just not enjoying this matchup at all - i really hope the next patch comes soon, as i know there is no miracle cure to this without one.
- By the way, does anyone else feel that after 8 patches, we're kinda circling round obvious problems and leaving them be, rather than fixing the the main bulk of things?
Hey man!
I was thinking, since Marauders didn't get the damage nerf (only removed concussion, but still that can be researched at tech lab), you can go heavier marauder? Like 8 marauders 2 marines instead of 7 marines 3 marauders. I still think heavy damage is the Terran doctrine, and if you add ghost, medivac, and vikings for late game you should be able to win, no?
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Can we just like, merge this thread with mine =P
Seriously if it warrants 2 threads, it's probably a problem.
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Why does stalker have a 42 second build time and the immortal have a 40 second build time? I always thought that this was a bit lopsided. Seems like 45 or 50 seconds would even things out a bit. In retrospect, colossus is a 75 second build time and siege tank is a 45 second build time. Comparatively, 50 seconds for the immortal seems a little more reasonable.
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stalker has a faster build time after warpgate, no? And if siege tanks are 45 then 40 immortal isn't really that unreasonable. Not that 50 would be horrible either
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I'm by no means a great player (or even that good if i'm being honest) I recently got promoted to platinum and i'm ranked 6 in a pretty non-competitive division, so I don't think that means much. However I know when a build feels strong, right now (i'm in the EU) I find Zerg pretty easy to beat and i'm having ALOT of problems against T's using this build or something similar.
Replay: http://www.mediafire.com/?dymf2qmkewo
In this game I do screw up the initial push pretty badly as he snipes my obs before I arrive, however I don't see what difference it really would have made.
From my point of view what I could have done differently:
Instead of going collosus tech I guess I should have gone twilight council -> zealot speed/HT's to counteract his maurauders. However I can't see how I could have got HT's with storm out in time for his counter push and his ground army just destroys mine, even though we have the same upgrades and I have more food.
Even if I managed to get the storms ready he probably would have just spammed EMP and got lucky with them. I don't see how anyone can say storm is OP when Terran basically get an instant 100 AoE damage vs any toss army, which also shows cloaked units and drains energy..
Feel free to criticise my replay, like I said I don't think i'm good, just trying to throw out some suggestions of what is beating me at the moment (this and fake maurauders into well hidden mass banshees).
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DeMusliM I feel the exact same way. TvP just feels like an huge uphill battle every game. I've tried a few different builds but nothing seems to be very reliable or solid with much consistency.
The last three sc2 tournaments I've been in I have been knocked out by TvP every time. I almost want to start learning PvP or ZvP but I figure they MUST patch it. But then they'd probably mess up PvZ balance so I don't know what they'll do.
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This really puzzles me. I'm not professing to be a top player, but I have moved into top 30ish platinum league after a few weeks with next to no Brood War experience. As a Protoss player, the one thing I have learned to fear the most is EMP. Thus far it has been the deciding factor every time I play against Terran. When it's used properly (which doesn't seem difficult considering it's not that far of a tech and getting feedback off first is very hard) it effectively halves the life of the majority of my army.
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Zurich15325 Posts
On April 14 2010 10:22 DeMusliM wrote:
But yeh, the last game i played i went 3 rax no expo attempt, had 7 rines 5 rauders and a ghost sat in bunkers/behind my wall - and he managed to break in and cripple me to the point i had to bring all my scvs. I was literally shocked that the fact i was using every resource on units not even teching and i couldn't stop this push - like surely something is wrong with that?
Can you please post this replay and/or the game mentioned in the OP? I would very much like to see that.
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tvp is a joke and it's hilarious 99% of toss deny it. Can't wait for next patch.
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It is definitely a joke. So many people were bitching about marauders, which were probably slightly imbalanced at best (and only in TvP). After the concussive shell nerf terran have to pull off something miraculous to beat good protoss.
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On April 14 2010 14:34 zatic wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2010 10:22 DeMusliM wrote:
But yeh, the last game i played i went 3 rax no expo attempt, had 7 rines 5 rauders and a ghost sat in bunkers/behind my wall - and he managed to break in and cripple me to the point i had to bring all my scvs. I was literally shocked that the fact i was using every resource on units not even teching and i couldn't stop this push - like surely something is wrong with that? Can you please post this replay and/or the game mentioned in the OP? I would very much like to see that.
Definitely want to see this replay.
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TvP right now is laughable and this is coming from a protoss player (though only 1350+ Gold (rank 2 in league)). It just seems I can screw up badly, lose 5 probes to early reaper harass, forget pylons, screw up attacks, fail drops and still win. (not in the same game obviously) Terran just isn't a threat early game as he used to be, meaning that I can tech uber fast and put some serious pressure on my opponent while still expanding safely.
4 gate warp rush wins the game right on the spot if he did ANY sort of FE and can really pressure him if he sits behind a wall as well. Meanwhile I can safely expand, tech up and whore probes like a madman. Fair? No. Challenging? Not by any fraction of the imagination.
I've stopped using the immortal rush in PvT 'cause it is boring. Again, if T FE's the game just ends, unless you pull off an amazing EMP. On one base I will happily camp your nat preventing you from expanding, while I do so myself. GL with those 3-4 immortals, 'cause they aint going down easily.
Terran needs something, since the only thing I see as being viable right now is some sort of cheese: everything you can throw at us in a standard game is fairly easy to shrug off. I still say mech needs to be more viable: tanks should cost 2 supply and their cost lowered. Marauders should perhaps get their slow back, but in energy form (IE the slow cost 5 energy per shot and the marauder starts with 50 or so) just so T can retain some sort of map control in the early game.
Also Immortals need to be nerfed. Not into the ground, but right now the only counter to this unit is air, meaning I control the map if you decide to stick to ground. I go stalker/zeal/sentry/immortal and I would like to see you break that without sick sick EMPs. I say tone their damage down abit vs armoured (50 lol) and make hardened shield a 200/200 upgrade somewhere. They are sick enough as it is.
GL with TvP - you need it, and lots of it.
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Could someone explain to me why this match-up is any harder this patch than last? Because we need to research concussive shells now?
I haven't noticed a difference. Ghosts still clean house. Banshee rushes can be very successful. Tanks are amazing and with ghosts knocking off immortal shields, it works even better.
Don't write off tanks so quickly just because they need more micro. Thors can do work vs immortals if you bring SCVs to repair and use their special ability on the immortals.
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banshees really are good vs p, the problem after the patch is that you will die before you get banshees vs a solid toss that goes 3-4 warp gates T_T
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This isn't helping much, but I found 1 basing and building an insane amount of rax (starting with 4 and finishing up with something like 7) and just doing a timed push just as he gets his first immortal is the best way to go.
I only say that it doesn't help much because im a ~1250 player in silver. I found that if you try to through in marauders you don't have quite the same firepower, and the sole immortal tends to go down pretty quickly against a stack of units. Just rally outside his base and keep pumping out marines and it should be gg.
It's a crappy way to win, though.
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On April 14 2010 15:40 Vexx wrote:
Could someone explain to me why this match-up is any harder this patch than last? Because we need to research concussive shells now?
I haven't noticed a difference. Ghosts still clean house. Banshee rushes can be very successful. Tanks are amazing and with ghosts knocking off immortal shields, it works even better.
I think it's because pre-patch 8, Terran players could early push Protoss and attempt to cause some damage or win the game outright.
Now, the 80 seconds make it so that Terran usually can't reach Protoss until after the first Immortal is out.
Personally, though, I don't think it's such a big change. I think Terran just need to get ghosts out earlier and cut back on the amount of marauders.
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I can explain how TvP became so broken. It all boils down with the marine nerf Marines take way to long to build. We didnt see it before because rokkits "covered up" the issue but once they were patched out, terran cannot mass marines in time to stop protoss. I believe if they reverse the reactor nerf and the marine build time nerf things would be better
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I also do not like these matchup, but am concerned about balance too.
I usually just lurk here, but this post is a concern to me. I played random until mid patch 7 and went terran. Last patch terran felt very strong all game vs. protoss and I felt bad for using so many marauders. This patch I still use many marauders but do not get the same control until I have upgraded them and have enough to overpower immortals.
I think that our marauders and their immortals both need more nerfs so that terran against protoss is more about mech, but I do not think that we need map control that we had in patch 7. Not being able to fast expand against an all-in is not our problem. Nobody should be able to expand vs. all-in and get away with it. The problem is when we both emphasize units early game and terran loose to an equal army push.
Sorry if my english is bad. =/
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On April 14 2010 15:48 Tiamat wrote:
I can explain how TvP became so broken. It all boils down with the marine nerf Marines take way to long to build. We didnt see it before because rokkits "covered up" the issue but once they were patched out, terran cannot mass marines in time to stop protoss. I believe if they reverse the reactor nerf and the marine build time nerf things would be better
That nerf was really killer, making scvs 45 hp was enough. Extra marine build time was completely overboard. It's just that the marauder issue was covering up how bad it really hurt, so no one noticed until that was fixed and terrans were left with nothing.
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Here's a proposed patch...
Patch 9:
Protoss:
o Reduced Immortal bonus damage vs Armored by 5
o Slightly increased Immortal build time
o Hardened Shield ability reduces damage to 15
o Added new building: Observatory (required to build observer)
o Reduced Observer cost to original
o Sentry spell, Forcefield reduced in duration by 3 game-seconds
o Sentry now deals +1 damage to air, -1 damage to ground (T_T)
Terran:
o Increased SCV HP to 50
o Slightly reduced Reactor build time
o Decrease Marauder HP from 125 to 120
o Increase Factory cost from 150 to 200 minerals
o Decreased Terran Siege Tank supply to 2 food
o Decrease Terran Siege Tank vespene to 100 gas
o Slightly decrease Terran Siege Tank firing speed (unsieged)
o Fixed Hellion attack as to allow for patrol micro
[Added upgrade: spider mines for 150/150 in Tech Lab ... ha ... ha... ha...]
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I think the key is to put more pessure on toss in the very beginning. Terran has to be aggressive or to get crushed. It is interesting to notice that on a different thread, orb was complaining the exactly opposite about TvP because 10 rax super fast reaper is about always 30secs faster than the toss player to make the first stalker without crippling his own econ. (I believed orb has already counted traveling time, so the 30sec is purely for econ harassment).
So let's put aside the old MMG scheme against toss and rethink our strategy. Maybe T can start off with a fast reaper + scv bunker rush to delay P's econ or at least delay his gas in take. Meanwhile T has the option to add more BB to marauder press, tech switch to banshee or simply FE(?) depending on the degree of harassment.
Personaly, I think T's units are extremely tactical. So instead of hoping for a universal one way strategy against P, T player should probably consider a more dynamic approach, (fast tech switches for example) to keep lead in the position and force toss player to respond.
Note: just like P dominates ground, T does have air superiority over other races and i believe reaper provides perfect transition. While reapers in base, P couldn't tech (not too sure about this) and P would most likely lose scouting ability during this period ( i don't see how a good P player can leave their probes to the reaper, while preparing for a may-never-get-to-come assult). So the longer u have reapers chill around in P's base, the more u can buy.
To wrap up, all the above are theories, my personal tests do not mean a thing due to possible weak opponents but i would love to see a pro like DeMuslium to test its viability if he hasn't already done it .
Tonight's prayer: God plz ignore orb as he is probably also praying to u to patch the reaper...
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The only way you can win vs protoss as terran now is hope he fucks up in a all in strat or something. If a good protoss plays a normal game vs a good terran, there can be no victory. Feels like Protoss is Mordor and Terran is Bree... seriously.
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On April 14 2010 16:19 exalted wrote:
Here's a proposed patch...
Patch 9:
Protoss:
o Reduced Immortal bonus damage vs Armored by 5
o Slightly increased Immortal build time
o Hardened Shield ability reduces damage to 15
o Added new building: Observatory (required to build observer)
o Reduced Observer cost to original
o Sentry spell, Forcefield reduced in duration by 3 game-seconds
o Sentry now deals +1 damage to air, -1 damage to ground (T_T)
Terran:
o Increased SCV HP to 50
o Slightly reduced Reactor build time
o Decrease Marauder HP from 125 to 120
o Increase Factory cost from 150 to 200 minerals
o Decreased Terran Siege Tank supply to 2 food
o Decrease Terran Siege Tank vespene to 100 gas
o Slightly decrease Terran Siege Tank firing speed (unsieged)
o Fixed Hellion attack as to allow for patrol micro
[Added upgrade: spider mines for 150/150 in Tech Lab ... ha ... ha... ha...]
Agree with all those except immortal hardened shield and observatory.
The very crucial thing about immortal hardened shields as it is right now, is that it takes exactly 10 hits. That good number of hits being tanked. By increasing it to 15, you're allowing much more units to do full damage to immortal shields and you also reduce the number of hits the immortal shields can tank by 1/3. That's a huge reduction. I honestly do not think immortal hardened shields are that much of a problem. Terran already has answers for it quite readily in the form of EMP. You also have to consider that immortals are key to stopping roaches in PvZ. Nerfing immortal shields by 33.3% will have large ramifications for PvZ as immortal shields already go down pretty fast in that matchup.
I don't agree with the observatory idea because detection/scouting abilities are available to Z and T at no extra tech immediately at T2. If the observatory is implemented, then Prtoss will be disadvantaged this respect. Yes, there are other hidden benefits/costs, but I think it's pretty even the way it is now.
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I do think some of those are good patch ideas, but I do not think protoss need another tech building. They have too many of those already. I think that the immortal taking too much damage to die is a problem, but it comes less from harden shield and more from not having marines there to counter. I think reactor change would fix this without need to make immortal shield bad.
If immortals died very fast to marauders after changes to their shield we would be back to using marauder only again and this is not fun to me. Already I can make enough marauders at middle to late game and overpowere immortals with stim-pack so I do not think making that part of the game easy is what we want. We need to be able to get marines at an earlier time so that early immortal push is not so hard to stop if we scout this.
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On April 14 2010 16:19 exalted wrote:
o Sentry spell, Forcefield reduced in duration by 3 game-seconds
How about making Forcefield a research spell? It screws up bunkers being repaired by SCVs by pushing the SCVs away, so early bunkers might become a reasonable strategy for Terrans to defend against Immortals. It is kinda the equivalent of slow on the Marauder and when you add it to the Cybernetics Core you have to choose between this one and Warp Gate, so Protoss is slowed down OR builds two Cores and has to spend more resources. Very early in the game the five units you push away represent a much larger portion of an army, so it seems imbalanced at that time. Turning it into a research would seem like a small enough adjustment without a big impact on the late game.
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I agree that marines need to be viable again. Right now the strat I've been having lots of success involves tricking the protoss into building lots of immortals while I mass marines. But the sad thing is I need to get both +1 attack/+1 armor/marine shields/stim just to beat the usual immortal push with marines. I really wish the reactor was more reasonable. It's only worth it for starports and factories, I'd rather build another barracks than put a reactor on it. Plus, marines build way way too slow now.
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Zurich15325 Posts
Stop making up fantasy patches please, that doesn't help anyone.
If you want to contribute to this thread please focus on TvP within the current patch level. If you think something is broken describe why exactly but don't make up your changes to the game to fix it. This just derails this thread.
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In TvP now it's like that: if you perfectly know what protoss does ( maphack is on) you stay on 50% chances to win. It turns onto who is better. And if you miss what protoss does you have almost no chances to win. I really want to think it's not imbalance but thing that terran didn't find counters yet.
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+1 for Strelok
nothing can deal with Immortal push on the low tree tech of Terran. Ghost yea, but if u get ghost u can't macro properly, less units + EMP against immortal/sentry/stalker/zealot = gg no re T_T
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On April 14 2010 11:35 zak wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2010 10:07 tubs wrote:
It's DeMusliM you idiots. One of the best terrans in EU. Of course he's tried ghosts and of course he doesn't need any replays. hahahahah this made my day ^ DeMusliM, I watch your games as much as I can. And obviously, you have a strong grasp of the game as can be seen by your build orders and economy/production. However, I would like to see more harass tactics and drops! You are extremely great at building the army and getting one, but more creative thought must be put in to use that army in the most advantageous method possible. You say you are having trouble because fighting head on with the Toss army is difficult. Well, if you are simply looking for an answer in how to fight head on with the Toss army, anyone can tell you that you just need more men, upgrades, tier 3, etc. But my other answer to your question would be to not simply focus for the inevitable Blob Vs. Blob moment of the game. It is not only about getting there the firstest with mostest. Haha I wanted to give you technical advice and build orders but you're DeMusliM.
Out of interest, where can i watch these games, i want to see too.
Trying to gather replays atm
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I'll concur the Marine build time went to crazytown after the nerfs following the SCV/Marine rush on Protoss. Marines are supposed to be the unit supplementing the Marauders, dealing enough damage to take out those Zealot 'tanks' as they kite, limiting the amount of damage Stalkers and Sentries could deal.
Then the Marine got chucked to the backburner after the nerfs, and lo and behold, we realise that Marauders ALONE work just fine at killing those Zealot tanks if you have enough space behind you. Once the Zealots go down, everything else falls to pieces, so long as your army consists of nothing but Marauders. No way Protoss could match Marauder count with an effective number of Stalkers and Immortals AND have enough Zealot tanks to keep them occupied.
I think they missed the mark with the Conc Shell nerf. They should have reduced Marauder damage vs Light, to stop them killing Zealots so damn quick. Then if you just made Marauders, you'd have to kite halfway to Char to kill them, forcing Terran to actually make Marines to kill the Zealot tanks, reducing the pressure they can put on at the start of the game, and giving them a good reason to diversify that damn army outside of Marauder spam.
I don't know how delicate the Marine and Reactor build time are balanced over the SCV+Marine rush precipice, but the Reactor build time could probably stand to come down a bit.
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On 2 player maps I have been able to consistently punish protoss for going 1gate-cyber-robotics. The basic strat (I haven't even optimized the build order yet so this wont be perfect) is to proxy 2 rax and research concussive shells SUPER early. In fact I begin research on shells before I have a single marauder out. This has the research completing around the time I have 2 marauders.
The strat could obviously work on 4 player maps as well however since timing is crucial in this strategy having to travel large distances/having to scout more compromises the strengths of the strat greatly.
With that said I'm pretty sure if the toss pulls 4-5 probes during my early assault that this push will fail and I'm back to square one 
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I would love to see, that Forcefields costs more energy, somethign about 75, and these guardian shield 100 Energy, or give the Point defens drone 75 Energy, but I think better would be incrase the Sentry Energy.
What I'm Playing atm. vs Toss (semi effektive) is stimed rines+ghosts with Energy upgrade.
I tried a 3Rax(1 Reactor/1lab/1free) and pumpin Marines getting stim and even combat shields(later on).
I'm getting a bunsch of Marines+ Stim and 2-3 Ghosts with EMP.
The first Toss push is (every push)easy to hold. Meanwhile he will counter your rines with Colossus.
3Raxes were far to much, it's ok with 2raxes(one with reactor the other lab) get the Factory out there, go for a Starport switch to the reactor and build a techlab on the 2nd rax.
Research concussive shells and get maurades + vikings.
The point is, without an 2nd Base it's so hard to get a possible amount of all this stuff.
I dont kno what to do after the 1st push..
1. Go for an 2nd Base, or
2. Get vikings asap.
3. Get more Raxes, for Mauraders
Its hard to tech without a 2nd Base. But its even harder to face Colossus without vikings.
I would like to put a Replay in here, but I dont kno where to upload it :/
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
i love how they make the grenade a cheap upgrade that takes half a minute to upgrade and everyone starts crying imbalance. Just before this "nerf" terrans were at the top of each division and improving their overall winning percentage by 13% on the EU server while P decreased and Z went up half as much as T.
It's pretty simple: Terran can't rely on the marauder early to do all the meta game damage. Terrans abused the shit out of low econ rushes while being able to divide the resources into a powerful rush AND a FE simultaneously. This was OP and had a minor fix. Rushing is still viable but expanding off that rush is slower/more expensive. Macro'ing is JUST as viable but it requires smart preparation in terms of tech path: You no longer can kinda go marauder and kinda go banshee.. you need to commit.
Overall this "nerf" just displays the poor state of spoiled terran players. They had their cake and ate it too now they are forced to blue collar it like P had to for 8 patches and Z .. well anyways.
Reaper rushes are incredibly powerful. On some maps you can get there before a stalker gets out 100% and usually before a zeal gets out. That kind of harassment is incredible.. in fact P and Z have nothing that compares with that speed/power. Banshees STILL dominate the air. Hiding that tech or switching mid game ROCKS a protoss even one that sees it coming.. still tough to hold.
I could go on but I'd rather not since I know point by point many of you will look at this and argue in general: Not enough.
See the real problem isn't the actual game or the balance of the current build. The problem is terrans have an unreal expectation for this game. They were happy when they could grab 8 scvs and whatever marines they made in that 3 seconds it took to make em all and win. They were happy when marauders came with the strongest ability in the game at tier 1.5. Now you can't do an invincible rush and marauders are stuck dealing more damage with a better range and more health than anything else at that level BUT they have to upgrade the second cheapest upgrade in the game (2nd only to overlord speed).
You guys can cry that immortals are OP. But take them out and roaches/marauders will be MORE of a problem (not less). You guys can complain about FF but none of you have had to deal with banelings as a P or a ling rush. This game is damn near perfect and it has taken me over 1k games to grind through it's issues and watch as it gets closer and closer to perfection.. you won't be successful and you won't do well sticking to what you THINK should work. You have to literally FIND what works.. which means work and practice.
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On April 14 2010 09:52 DeMusliM wrote:
Hey!
Right - i'm not one to whine, but i'm at a real dead end right now when it comes to this matchup - i've tried literally everything but it feels as if my army is never as cost effective - and never as fast at rebuilding.
Before the patch - TvP has always been my least favourite Matchup as i felt i was limited to 1 viable strategy - that being the marauder fe. The patch came and swiftly tore that apart, and after immortals not allowing mech play, it leaves terran with little option but to go BIO that has been nerfed considerably, and doesn't really stand up to a protoss army head on.
Now, my main predicament being - a 4-5 warpgate rush (i find this incredibly hard to hold off, i just encountered a game where i went 3 rax, 2 bunkers and died behind my wall to it), or the more simple 3 warpgate immortal -> push/expo and tech to HT's.
Before the patch - terrans were still weaker late game vs toss - due to the inability to go heavy units such as thors/tanks, and thus investing alot of money in bio due to it not being totally destroyed by immortals. But right now, i don't have an advantage at any point in the game and feel constantly behind - is their a strategy that i'm missing out on? Or is every Terran feeling the way i do? :S
Any suggestions are appreciated - anybody also dwelling on the same situation will make me feel less crap for losing roughly 9/11 games vs protoss in the last few days.
I really don't like people posting things like "he is a pro..WOOOHAA". Start think wit your brain and don't stop thinking in front of nobody!
However this is what i think:
Do you really think that Terran had been to nerfed with this patch?
Here is the text
TERRAN
Thor
Build time decreased from 75 seconds to 60 seconds.
Siege Tank
Build time decreased from 50 seconds to 45 seconds.
Marauder
Concussive Shells now require an upgrade.
Barracks Tech Lab
Concussive Shells upgrade added.
Concussive Shells upgrade costs 100/100 and takes 80 seconds to complete.
They powered terran mech and simply put concussive shells as an upgrade. It isn't a nerf at all it simply prevent really early marauder rushes.
With the last patch terran has been powered not nerfed.
I am a random player and i find out that TvP has lot of potential strategy:
Thor Fast exp
Rine+tanks
Marauder push
Marauder fast exp
Reaper harassment.
However it is true that marauder are one of the most common and viable strategy nowadays.
Without any replays from you is really impossible to discuss something.. We have to know:
-situation
-Army composition
-Placemente
-et cetera
And you really couldn't open a thread called "terran vs Protoss". What would happen if everybody opens a thread similar? On the forum we would have 276 Terran vs Protoss 454 Zerg vs Zerg 2342 Protoss vs Zerg and so on!
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hi tl users :D
*cheer* first post *cheer*
i had the same problem in tvp
so i tried out some things
and i found that pumping rines and ghost is quite viable
in this replay
[url blocked]
i know im just medium plat lvl :/
and my macro is just terrible but i think the strat itself can work
i start with normal econ build and get tec lab on 2nd rax
then basically try to pump rines go for stim pack and combat shield and pump out ghosts out of tecrax and if theres 150 mins left i start a new rax
basically in the replay he pushed with i think 3 immortal so its not that ultra fast push
and map distance was quite long but i managed to push him back and set up an expansion
also if i would macroed better i would have 6 rax with 1 tec lab and the natural
leaves quite a lot of options in this game i put tec labs on the raxes and started pumping marauders with some ghosts and got vikings for colossi
you could also stop building raxes and start teching after u got like 4 raxes up, depends on match i think
so go terrans
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everything they buffed for terran = no good against toss.
50 dmg per shot by immortals against tanks/thors = gg.
Also these guys take down structures WAY to fast. i had like 3 immortals and a couple stalkers take down my planetary fortress even with 1/2 a dozen scvs repairing... admittedly i was raging at being blocked from ramp so i let it auto atk probably focused on immortals -_-
Bunkers are also pretty useless vs immortals.
IMO
Nerf Immortals dmg from 20+30 to 20+20 (maybe +25?)
Nerf maruder HP so they can still get 3 hit KO'd by immortals
sentry force field also needs a change.. and not a duration nerf it needs some HP or some way to knock down.
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I don't have a problem so much with the concussive shell. I feel that there would be a benefit to giving Immortals a little less health, but put more of that health into the shields. This would make them still a hard counter to things like tanks, but lessen their affect against infantry. P would still be able to deal with tanks quite easily. Send in immortals take the first round of siege fire and blink in stalkers like always.
It's pretty sad when I've 2 rax proxy'd with a first at my base (to give the appearance of standard play) and will still lose when a immortal comes out and he uses his probes.
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Incontrol has saved the day... Terran players just need to adapt now ~_~
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On April 14 2010 20:51 TwilightStar wrote:
Incontrol has saved the day... Terran players just need to adapt now ~_~
no that they already wrote that they have tried every fuckin unit in game
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On April 14 2010 19:31 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
i love how they make the grenade a cheap upgrade that takes half a minute to upgrade and everyone starts crying imbalance. Just before this "nerf" terrans were at the top of each division and improving their overall winning percentage by 13% on the EU server while P decreased and Z went up half as much as T.
It's pretty simple: Terran can't rely on the marauder early to do all the meta game damage. Terrans abused the shit out of low econ rushes while being able to divide the resources into a powerful rush AND a FE simultaneously. This was OP and had a minor fix. Rushing is still viable but expanding off that rush is slower/more expensive. Macro'ing is JUST as viable but it requires smart preparation in terms of tech path: You no longer can kinda go marauder and kinda go banshee.. you need to commit.
Overall this "nerf" just displays the poor state of spoiled terran players. They had their cake and ate it too now they are forced to blue collar it like P had to for 8 patches and Z .. well anyways.
Reaper rushes are incredibly powerful. On some maps you can get there before a stalker gets out 100% and usually before a zeal gets out. That kind of harassment is incredible.. in fact P and Z have nothing that compares with that speed/power. Banshees STILL dominate the air. Hiding that tech or switching mid game ROCKS a protoss even one that sees it coming.. still tough to hold.
I could go on but I'd rather not since I know point by point many of you will look at this and argue in general: Not enough.
See the real problem isn't the actual game or the balance of the current build. The problem is terrans have an unreal expectation for this game. They were happy when they could grab 8 scvs and whatever marines they made in that 3 seconds it took to make em all and win. They were happy when marauders came with the strongest ability in the game at tier 1.5. Now you can't do an invincible rush and marauders are stuck dealing more damage with a better range and more health than anything else at that level BUT they have to upgrade the second cheapest upgrade in the game (2nd only to overlord speed).
You guys can cry that immortals are OP. But take them out and roaches/marauders will be MORE of a problem (not less). You guys can complain about FF but none of you have had to deal with banelings as a P or a ling rush. This game is damn near perfect and it has taken me over 1k games to grind through it's issues and watch as it gets closer and closer to perfection.. you won't be successful and you won't do well sticking to what you THINK should work. You have to literally FIND what works.. which means work and practice.
if i give you all my money will you be my father?
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I'm quite confident this issue comes down to the immortal (and other units with +armored bonus) doing too much damage against buildings. Protoss harass or stalkers+immortals is insanely strong now because they can kill buildings very fast and retreat to regenerate their shields if things go wrong.
Previous patch marauder slow punished this pretty hard, now the combination of stim+slow (which is needed to punish a retreating toss player) comes too late and at too big a cost.
Changing buildings from being armored to being a separate type (or just no type) would solve this issue imo. Lategame the immortal really isn't a problem as EMP and terran upgrades being more effective even the playing field but now early immortal pressure is damn strong against buildings.
From all the units that get a big bonus against buildings only the voidray really deserves it imo...
And like I and others have said before, the immortal is not making mech impossible, the mech setup itself makes it kind of impossible. Mech has no counters to armored units and no counters to heavy air, the way to solve this imo is to merge 'mech' upgrades and 'air' upgrades so you could mix in banshees as a armored counter then when using mech or vikings as a heavy air counter as mech. At the moment mech is useless to invest heavily in as you need a lot of other units simply because mech CAN'T deal with lots of stuff (BC's, carriers, broodlords, roaches and immortals all beat all 3 of the mech units...).
I actually feel the marauder nerf was more of a mech nerf then a bio nerf. You need marauders with mech anyway as you cant beat roaches or immortals otherwise. Adding just a few marauders to mech play is less effective though now as you won't have slow nor have the gas to spare. Pure bio play can easily miss the gas though. The nerf was a little overdone imo and should have been something like 100m 50g.
Blizzard seems to be intentionally overnerfing every 'issue' at the moment so that all flaws get to be revealed. When the real game comes out they probably switch to more subtle nerfs but now they just want to see how every part of every race works out i guess. Just as the strong marauder concealed any other terran weaknesses last patch, they at least revealed those now. If they went with a more subtle nerf people wouldn't have realized those flaws so soon.
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On April 14 2010 19:31 {88}iNcontroL wrote: See the real problem isn't the actual game or the balance of the current build. The problem is terrans have an unreal expectation for this game.
What an absurd, sweeping, adversarial and polarizing statement. You can not be serious! You sound like a nationalist defending the "PROTOSS EMPIRE!". As if a terran player's expectations are any different than a protoss or zerg's. Everyone wants the game to be balanced. Everyone but you, apparently, judging by the rest of your post.
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Some people miss my point such as incontrol.
The reason terrans used marauders so much is because EVERYTHING else wasn't cost effective or viable - (the rest of the units used from the barracks also got some kinda nerf). You needed marauders to survive early game - and to apply pressure and survive the rush (marines don't cut it dealing 4 damage per hit with guardian shield, and taking alot longer to build).
Even before this patch protoss players were learning how to beat it - so you can't just Nerf the only viable strategy, and Buff thor/tank build time when they are already countered hard by the strat terrans are losing to. - It's almost like, creating a strategy to beat something, that already counters your strategy - it's worthless.
I made this thread to find out if people were losing in a way they felt unwinnable, or if someone had some success story to share - and, although selfishly i guess - i'm quite happy others feel as lost as i do in this mu, although i would be much happier if there was a cure, or some kinda strat that could atleast go up against what i'm losing to.
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On April 14 2010 19:31 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
i love how they make the grenade a cheap upgrade that takes half a minute to upgrade and everyone starts crying imbalance. Just before this "nerf" terrans were at the top of each division and improving their overall winning percentage by 13% on the EU server while P decreased and Z went up half as much as T.
It's pretty simple: Terran can't rely on the marauder early to do all the meta game damage. Terrans abused the shit out of low econ rushes while being able to divide the resources into a powerful rush AND a FE simultaneously. This was OP and had a minor fix. Rushing is still viable but expanding off that rush is slower/more expensive. Macro'ing is JUST as viable but it requires smart preparation in terms of tech path: You no longer can kinda go marauder and kinda go banshee.. you need to commit.
Overall this "nerf" just displays the poor state of spoiled terran players. They had their cake and ate it too now they are forced to blue collar it like P had to for 8 patches and Z .. well anyways.
Reaper rushes are incredibly powerful. On some maps you can get there before a stalker gets out 100% and usually before a zeal gets out. That kind of harassment is incredible.. in fact P and Z have nothing that compares with that speed/power. Banshees STILL dominate the air. Hiding that tech or switching mid game ROCKS a protoss even one that sees it coming.. still tough to hold.
I could go on but I'd rather not since I know point by point many of you will look at this and argue in general: Not enough.
See the real problem isn't the actual game or the balance of the current build. The problem is terrans have an unreal expectation for this game. They were happy when they could grab 8 scvs and whatever marines they made in that 3 seconds it took to make em all and win. They were happy when marauders came with the strongest ability in the game at tier 1.5. Now you can't do an invincible rush and marauders are stuck dealing more damage with a better range and more health than anything else at that level BUT they have to upgrade the second cheapest upgrade in the game (2nd only to overlord speed).
You guys can cry that immortals are OP. But take them out and roaches/marauders will be MORE of a problem (not less). You guys can complain about FF but none of you have had to deal with banelings as a P or a ling rush. This game is damn near perfect and it has taken me over 1k games to grind through it's issues and watch as it gets closer and closer to perfection.. you won't be successful and you won't do well sticking to what you THINK should work. You have to literally FIND what works.. which means work and practice.
I wish these forums had a highlight on threads for intelligent posts, like the way Battle.net forum threads receive a blue highlight if a Blizzard employee wrote in them. I feel as though this post contributed the most because it has a great mindset for people to take note of.
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My god, can all you stubborn protosses just TRY to play 1v1 with a terran partner and use immortals early and see what happens?
It's sad and amusing at the same time once you try it, because on a small/regular sized map, terran can't do anything to you, except defend and lose a depot or two while you expand and take map control.
And DeMusliM, the only success story you'll hear is a terran beating a protoss player who got impatient and just a-moved with no micro or a protoss player not knowing how to abuse the early immortal. I've been trying with some good terran players and the only good news is that on larger maps, the imbalance isn't quite as obvious.
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On April 14 2010 21:54 DeMusliM wrote:
Some people miss my point such as incontrol.
The reason terrans used marauders so much is because EVERYTHING else wasn't cost effective or viable - (the rest of the units used from the barracks also got some kinda nerf). You needed marauders to survive early game - and to apply pressure and survive the rush (marines don't cut it dealing 4 damage per hit with guardian shield, and taking alot longer to build).
Even before this patch protoss players were learning how to beat it - so you can't just Nerf the only viable strategy, and Buff thor/tank build time when they are already countered hard by the strat terrans are losing to. - It's almost like, creating a strategy to beat something, that already counters your strategy - it's worthless.
I made this thread to find out if people were losing in a way they felt unwinnable, or if someone had some success story to share - and, although selfishly i guess - i'm quite happy others feel as lost as i do in this mu, although i would be much happier if there was a cure, or some kinda strat that could atleast go up against what i'm losing to.
Have you tried talking to orb about the reaper build time complaint? He might have replays of losing to Terrans who use the 10rax reaper strat, and if that's the case you might be able to analyze those builds and see what you can derive.
With one really high Terran level player complaining TvP is hard for T, and one really high level Protoss player complaining TvP is hard for P, there must be something that each side can try to figure out.
As a T player myself, one thing I am concerned about is the viability of 1rax FE. I personally also felt that a marauder push after FE was really stale and way too effective, but now it seems that the opposite has occurred, that FE isn't safe any more because of the 4 warp gate rush.
It would be nice if Terrans could still safely expand AND Protosses can have breathing room and not worry about a fast marauder push. Not sure how that would work out though.
But yeah, could you discuss with orb maybe and see if he has replays of losing to Terrans?
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On April 14 2010 21:57 Makica wrote:
I wish these forums had a highlight on threads for intelligent posts, like the way Battle.net forum threads receive a blue highlight if a Blizzard employee wrote in them. I feel as though this post contributed the most because it has a great mindset for people to take note of.
I can understand that it is nice to see what he writes, as a protoss player. It makes you feel like you are winning against terrans because you are skilled (I am not saying that you are not skilled).
My question to incontrol: did you play terran after patch 8? So yes: what do you suggest?
People suggest to "just EMP the protoss army and you will be fine". They forget 1 thing: you need alot of gas to make a ghost, wich is not possible very early without sacrificing building other units. We got marauders and we got marines (early game), and that's it.
Early reaper is an option, indeed.
Mech is not an option, immortals will easily destroy it.
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On April 14 2010 21:57 Makica wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2010 19:31 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
i love how they make the grenade a cheap upgrade that takes half a minute to upgrade and everyone starts crying imbalance. Just before this "nerf" terrans were at the top of each division and improving their overall winning percentage by 13% on the EU server while P decreased and Z went up half as much as T.
It's pretty simple: Terran can't rely on the marauder early to do all the meta game damage. Terrans abused the shit out of low econ rushes while being able to divide the resources into a powerful rush AND a FE simultaneously. This was OP and had a minor fix. Rushing is still viable but expanding off that rush is slower/more expensive. Macro'ing is JUST as viable but it requires smart preparation in terms of tech path: You no longer can kinda go marauder and kinda go banshee.. you need to commit.
Overall this "nerf" just displays the poor state of spoiled terran players. They had their cake and ate it too now they are forced to blue collar it like P had to for 8 patches and Z .. well anyways.
Reaper rushes are incredibly powerful. On some maps you can get there before a stalker gets out 100% and usually before a zeal gets out. That kind of harassment is incredible.. in fact P and Z have nothing that compares with that speed/power. Banshees STILL dominate the air. Hiding that tech or switching mid game ROCKS a protoss even one that sees it coming.. still tough to hold.
I could go on but I'd rather not since I know point by point many of you will look at this and argue in general: Not enough.
See the real problem isn't the actual game or the balance of the current build. The problem is terrans have an unreal expectation for this game. They were happy when they could grab 8 scvs and whatever marines they made in that 3 seconds it took to make em all and win. They were happy when marauders came with the strongest ability in the game at tier 1.5. Now you can't do an invincible rush and marauders are stuck dealing more damage with a better range and more health than anything else at that level BUT they have to upgrade the second cheapest upgrade in the game (2nd only to overlord speed).
You guys can cry that immortals are OP. But take them out and roaches/marauders will be MORE of a problem (not less). You guys can complain about FF but none of you have had to deal with banelings as a P or a ling rush. This game is damn near perfect and it has taken me over 1k games to grind through it's issues and watch as it gets closer and closer to perfection.. you won't be successful and you won't do well sticking to what you THINK should work. You have to literally FIND what works.. which means work and practice. I wish these forums had a highlight on threads for intelligent posts, like the way Battle.net forum threads receive a blue highlight if a Blizzard employee wrote in them. I feel as though this post contributed the most because it has a great mindset for people to take note of.
Actually his post contributed nothing but an absurd statement for which other users would receive a warning.
"See the real problem isn't the actual game or the balance of the current build. The problem is terrans have an unreal expectation for this game. They were happy when they could grab 8 scvs and whatever marines they made in that 3 seconds it took to make em all and win. They were happy when marauders came with the strongest ability in the game at tier 1.5."
Uhm, no Terran on his right mind was happy with that situation. NEVER. Just because this (imbalance) was there and got abused this does NOT mean that all Terrans on this planet were happy about it. If you look into some older threads you will see that Terrans admitted that this was just wrong and therefore it got changed. Relying on 10 Rax Reaper Cheese and stopping any further balance process because there was a broken mechanic that worked for T is not the way to go.
So where is the great contribution you're talking about? Let Protoss dominate Terran for 8 Patches to make up for what happend to them?
Although I agree that we should find something that WORKS. And thats what we are here for. Unfortunately nothing has been found yet.
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What is with all the "OMG just use reapers nubs!" posts. Show me a replay where reapers do more dmg then they actually cost. You all watch the toss base and say "LOOOOOK teh reaperz pwnzored like 3 probes omg nerf!!!" But u dont look at the terran base. Look at the economy of both players. After the reaper dies (and it does fast if u have one zealot to harrass the reaper till stalker comes) the players have EQUAL INCOME and the T lost 1 mb 2 reapers (50mins and 50gas) and the toss lost one zealot and 3 probes(edit: oh ya u do that kind of dmg with a zealot on ur ass if u have like 200 apm)
And no i didnt forget mules. Mules just equal the playing field vs chrono probes (1 mule= 3 scvs).
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i agree with every single thing OP said
and sorry i dont have any advise for u, i dont know a safe way to fe anymore. in patch5 and before i could rax fe then 6-7 i could marauder fe and now i cant fe. i cant do anything and ive tried everything just like u
its not really just the early game, later game i feel like toss can simply get far better economy because his units r very cost effective
and lategame is just ridiculous, if u reach that toss always wins
the only way terran has been able to win this entire beta stage is through early game, as we r getting worse bio and stronger mech we are now in a position where we lose against everything rather than everything being viable.
demuslim is one of the best terrans in the world and if he comes here and says this, its not just that he has been winning because he been spoiled wins by imba. terran has been worst race and we r getting changes but demuslim were one of few terrans who fought the odds of the mus. if u dont understand the level of play i suggest u to just agree with what he says and if u disagree i suggest u to be silent and accept ur the one whos missing something, not demuslim
On April 14 2010 17:19 3D.Strelok wrote:
In TvP now it's like that: if you perfectly know what protoss does ( maphack is on) you stay on 50% chances to win. It turns onto who is better. And if you miss what protoss does you have almost no chances to win. I really want to think it's not imbalance but thing that terran didn't find counters yet.
u cant really know what toss is doing early game, if u spend 50 on a scan to see what his doing (assuming he built every single tech building near the nexus including with gateways) sure u know what he do, but u cant stop it because u just lost ur mule.
if u dont scan u end up in a scenario where either u get a game rolling ur toss rolls over u because he countered ur build and u had no idea whats coming. simply think its ignorant to say its a 50% chance to win in a mu and this is if u know what toss is doing, a good toss wont let u know that and remember toss ALWAYS knows what ur doing. they r the ones with maphack not us so ur scenario is very unrealistic
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Stop crying about this matchup. It's not broken at all. Nothing has changed with the latest patch, only thing different is you can't dominate a toss anymore by rallying marauder into his base early game.
Seriously what the hell changed from the previous patch ???????
Oh yeah did I alreay mention the patch has changed nothing, marauder slow requires an upgrade................ that's it. You can't kill a protoss anymore with your first couple of marauders, that's really the only thing that has changed.
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in my experience, tvp has now become very very very boring. you go 4 rax to keep up with the protoss and stay on one base the entire game. tech appropriately such that you don't die to protoss tech since mass immortals and mass collossus are dealt with in 2 different gas/mineral routes(ghost and vikings). don't expand till you're about to run out of minerals, lift CC and expo when minerals start to run out. at end yo uwill still be on either 4 or 5 rax, a factory not producing anything, and a starport, interchanging its add on with the rax. if you go to expo anywhere during this phase, you lose positioning which you desperately need, and you are behind in units.
I've tried going mech pretty aggressively for the past week, and it is very hard to control gas when going mech. then i ran into a warp prism + 2 immortal and lol'ed at my defending tanks. and by lol'ed i mean QQed
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On April 14 2010 23:12 AlundrA wrote:
Stop crying about this matchup. It's not broken at all. Nothing has changed with the latest patch, only thing different is you can't dominate a toss anymore by rallying marauder into his base early game.
Seriously what the hell changed from the previous patch ???????
Oh yeah did I alreay mention the patch has changed nothing, marauder slow requires an upgrade................ that's it. You can't kill a protoss anymore with your first couple of marauders, that's really the only thing that has changed.
are u retarded? it was only the imba rushes who let T win (or gain huge advantage), without early pressure P can tech to whatever he wants and enter the late game where army composition of immortal/colo/ht/sentry/zeal counters anything terran can throw at them.
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what about 1base marauder drop? iirc one of the terrans that qualified from that korean gosu pgr21 tourney did that vs toss quite sucessfully. the basic idea is to keep the toss in his base, if he attacks you, he's gonna get raped by the drop. the problem is though defending at home... if u even get killed with 1base 3rax + bunker teching to starport probably isn't an option. 
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On April 14 2010 23:12 AlundrA wrote:
Stop crying about this matchup. It's not broken at all. Nothing has changed with the latest patch, only thing different is you can't dominate a toss anymore by rallying marauder into his base early game.
Seriously what the hell changed from the previous patch ???????
Oh yeah did I alreay mention the patch has changed nothing, marauder slow requires an upgrade................ that's it. You can't kill a protoss anymore with your first couple of marauders, that's really the only thing that has changed.
You really dont get it. The only way a T could win before patch was by mara rush or mara fast expand. Both those strats were nerfed. Now u get it?
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On April 14 2010 23:15 Gretorp wrote:
in my experience, tvp has now become very very very boring. you go 4 rax to keep up with the protoss and stay on one base the entire game. tech appropriately such that you don't die to protoss tech since mass immortals and mass collossus are dealt with in 2 different gas/mineral routes(ghost and vikings). don't expand till you're about to run out of minerals, lift CC and expo when minerals start to run out. at end yo uwill still be on either 4 or 5 rax, a factory not producing anything, and a starport, interchanging its add on with the rax. if you go to expo anywhere during this phase, you lose positioning which you desperately need, and you are behind in units.
I've tried going mech pretty aggressively for the past week, and it is very hard to control gas when going mech. then i ran into a warp prism + 2 immortal and lol'ed at my defending tanks. and by lol'ed i mean QQed
if u r 1base vs 1base he can make dts and force u to turn back, force u to build turrets and force u to waste at least 1 scan. u cant afford this on 1base and u cant get a raven either, u also cant really contain a toss with a turret and u cant assume hes going dt and get turrets every game. on top of that you also cant scout it.
and as ur paying for all this shit just to survive he can expand and hes in a great shape.
1base vs 1base toss is stronger, its the truth
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On April 14 2010 09:52 DeMusliM wrote:
Hey!
Right - i'm not one to whine, but i'm at a real dead end right now when it comes to this matchup - i've tried literally everything but it feels as if my army is never as cost effective - and never as fast at rebuilding.
Before the patch - TvP has always been my least favourite Matchup as i felt i was limited to 1 viable strategy - that being the marauder fe. The patch came and swiftly tore that apart, and after immortals not allowing mech play, it leaves terran with little option but to go BIO that has been nerfed considerably, and doesn't really stand up to a protoss army head on.
Now, my main predicament being - a 4-5 warpgate rush (i find this incredibly hard to hold off, i just encountered a game where i went 3 rax, 2 bunkers and died behind my wall to it), or the more simple 3 warpgate immortal -> push/expo and tech to HT's.
Before the patch - terrans were still weaker late game vs toss - due to the inability to go heavy units such as thors/tanks, and thus investing alot of money in bio due to it not being totally destroyed by immortals. But right now, i don't have an advantage at any point in the game and feel constantly behind - is their a strategy that i'm missing out on? Or is every Terran feeling the way i do? :S
Any suggestions are appreciated - anybody also dwelling on the same situation will make me feel less crap for losing roughly 9/11 games vs protoss in the last few days.
I feel pretty much the same way. Protoss can make 3 immortals per minute with chrono boost on a single robotics. Immortals completely force Terran's hand.
I only win semi-consistently in this matchup by going FE with a planetary - on maps where that's even viable, like LT - and going mass banshee ASAP. But even that's questionable.
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Ghost academy seems like a very small resource & time investment (150min 50gas 40sec) so it even if your scouting is getting pretty sloppy it should be pretty easy to get one up as needed, not like you need several buildings and research a bunch of upgrades.
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the ghost lab isn't the hard thing it's the ghost that is tough, which makes it slower to tech with the 150 gas allocation + you need to allocate gas to marauders b/c marines just don't cut it.
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I definately agree that immortal pushing is somewhat too strong, the fact that stim & concussive shells can't come early makes them incredibly easy to micro as well as they move at roughly the same speed as non-stimmed marauders. This matchup has been full off cheese from the terran side basically all beta so that it feels like just now some of the underlying mechanics are being revealed.
If the game procedes past the early game (ie. both secure their nat) the matchup feels quite even if not slightly in the terran favor simply because emp is great in big battles and stimmed marauders are so damn fast. The early pushing and the way toss can contain terran are just what is skewed imo and needs to be fixed. Preferrably I just see immortal's nerfed in either build time and/or their damage against buildings. Changing their combat stats would make them too weak lategame and change the PvZ & PvP matchup in a negative way I feel.
Adding a upgrade (such as for hardened shield) doesn't seem a good solution to me simply because it wouldn't have a good place at any toss building. At the support bay would make a robo bay without support bay too useless, at the core would mess with warpgate early game and at the robo bay itself doesn't fit flavor wise and would mess with making immortals fast.
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On April 14 2010 19:31 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
i love how they make the grenade a cheap upgrade that takes half a minute to upgrade and everyone starts crying imbalance. Just before this "nerf" terrans were at the top of each division and improving their overall winning percentage by 13% on the EU server while P decreased and Z went up half as much as T.
It's pretty simple: Terran can't rely on the marauder early to do all the meta game damage. Terrans abused the shit out of low econ rushes while being able to divide the resources into a powerful rush AND a FE simultaneously. This was OP and had a minor fix. Rushing is still viable but expanding off that rush is slower/more expensive. Macro'ing is JUST as viable but it requires smart preparation in terms of tech path: You no longer can kinda go marauder and kinda go banshee.. you need to commit.
Overall this "nerf" just displays the poor state of spoiled terran players. They had their cake and ate it too now they are forced to blue collar it like P had to for 8 patches and Z .. well anyways.
Reaper rushes are incredibly powerful. On some maps you can get there before a stalker gets out 100% and usually before a zeal gets out. That kind of harassment is incredible.. in fact P and Z have nothing that compares with that speed/power. Banshees STILL dominate the air. Hiding that tech or switching mid game ROCKS a protoss even one that sees it coming.. still tough to hold.
I could go on but I'd rather not since I know point by point many of you will look at this and argue in general: Not enough.
See the real problem isn't the actual game or the balance of the current build. The problem is terrans have an unreal expectation for this game. They were happy when they could grab 8 scvs and whatever marines they made in that 3 seconds it took to make em all and win. They were happy when marauders came with the strongest ability in the game at tier 1.5. Now you can't do an invincible rush and marauders are stuck dealing more damage with a better range and more health than anything else at that level BUT they have to upgrade the second cheapest upgrade in the game (2nd only to overlord speed).
You guys can cry that immortals are OP. But take them out and roaches/marauders will be MORE of a problem (not less). You guys can complain about FF but none of you have had to deal with banelings as a P or a ling rush. This game is damn near perfect and it has taken me over 1k games to grind through it's issues and watch as it gets closer and closer to perfection.. you won't be successful and you won't do well sticking to what you THINK should work. You have to literally FIND what works.. which means work and practice.
That is making a lot of assumptions. Speaking for myself, I've never played TvP one dimensionally. I am a huge advocate of constant experimentation, and try new things pretty much all the time in ladder games. And I have literally never marine/scv all in attacked someone. It's not about me being lazy or spoiled. I don't want immortals removed from the game and I don't think I should just be able to pick a build and win.
What I do want is parity. It feels like P can "just pick a build and win" in TvP. I do think Immortals need a little tweaking, especially since with a chrono boost you can get one in 20 seconds, where it takes me 25 to get a marine (2 if I sacrifice 2 marine build cycles and 50/50 to upgrade a barracks with a reactor). The 4-5 gate build is the game breaker for me. Just showing me 4 gates forces me to make 5 or so barracks - and then Protoss builds a nexus while I am catching up on units. Warp gates spit units out really, really fast compared to barracks.
You can't say unit cost makes a difference, because of the sentry - most P make a ton of them and spray force fields all over the place. I have replays where I've been FF'd so much my units just slide around and don't do anything. Sentry is the other unit I think needs tweaking. Lots of force field is game breaking. You should not have a unit in the game that can create indestructible terrain that shoves units out of the way on instantiation. For 50/100 you get a unit that can say - sorry you can't micro this battle because I'm going to put 3 layers of walls behind you and force you into my zealots - sorry you can't go down that ramp I've got 4 sentries who will keep it permanently force fielded for the duration of the game - etc.
Late game mass temps are pretty sick. EMP just doesn't work vs P who watch the map, use obs and feedback, and play aggressively - and there's really nothing else to neutralize temps short of sacrificing banshees or ravens.
As for reapers, what build are you doing where your units are so late? I open 10 rax reaper as a standard on 2 player maps. Protoss more or less always has a stalker started or almost started when the reaper arrives, and the gate gets boosted, so there are about 14 real world seconds to harass with a unit that will die in 3 hits from a zealot if I mess up my micro one bit. And once a stalker is out reapers have to run because stalkers are really, really fast, and I can't even micro around just to escape many times.
Sure hidden banshees can shit all over you. But that's hardly something I can rely on, and it's not going to help me get a cost effective army mix against you in an all-things-being-equal scenario, particularly with obs in my base and no proxy buildings.
I don't think my knowledge of the game is conclusive enough to say that I believe the above issues to be absolutely 100% true and my assessments accurate and infallible - I just think you are DRAMATICALLY oversimplifying and making quite a lot of assumptions. I would love to hear your thoughts on how a Terran can beat an aggressive 4 warpgate P who expands while spending all his gas on sentry or who goes 1-2 gate + nonstop immortals with expand into HT mass. Short of lucking out with banshees, I don't have any idea.
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Netherlands19133 Posts
I've been having great succes with fast 1 fact thor with reactor (after fact starts) marines all the time into expo (orbital inbase first before lifting), while adding 2nd rax with tech and ghosts after the cc starts with nonstop rines and thors and then after expanding adding 3 more rax with ghost marauder + 1-2 starport banshee/medivac, metal +att grades and both infantry ups.
Thanks to Jinro for this one, totally turned my TvP around. Thor always was my core unit vs Z and now is it as well vs P. Especially with 10 scvs on autorepair along and their special cannon ability vs immortals and collossi. Imho thors totally need to have 2 base armour and their "spell" range changed/increased to their normal ground attack range.
Anyways just putting it out there, hope it might help someone ;p. Lategame army of thor marauder ghost banshee hellion marine (1 rax reactor, 3 rax tech, 1 fact tech, 1 fact reactor, 1-2 port tech) has been doing really well for me. The thor + marines counter voidray rushes well, DTs are still -.-, and thor marine does really well vs stalker pushes. The ghost(s) comes out in time for me as well along with some marauders for some P push.
2nd gas around when you start fax should work out right before or after as mins permit.
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On April 14 2010 23:40 Nyovne wrote:
I've been having great succes with fast 1 fact thor with reactor (after fact starts) marines all the time into expo (orbital inbase first before lifting), while adding 2nd rax with tech and ghosts after the cc starts with nonstop rines and thors and then after expanding adding 3 more rax with ghost marauder + 1-2 starport banshee/medivac, metal +att grades and both infantry ups.
Thanks to Jinro for this one, totally turned my TvP around. Thor always was my core unit vs Z and now is it as well vs P. Especially with 10 scvs on autorepair along and their special cannon ability vs immortals and collossi. Imho thors totally need to have 2 base armour and their "spell" range changed/increased to their normal ground attack range.
Anyways just putting it out there, hope it might help someone ;p. Lategame army of thor marauder ghost banshee hellion marine (1 rax reactor, 3 rax tech, 1 fact tech, 1 fact reactor, 1-2 port tech) has been doing really well for me. The thor + marines counter voidray rushes well, DTs are still -.-, and thor marine does really well vs stalker pushes. The ghost(s) comes out in time for me as well along with some marauders for some P push.
2nd gas around when you start fax should work out right before or after as mins permit.
I'm pretty confident that a zealot/sentry/immortal attack would destroy this. 3 Immortals focus firing a Thor will possibly kill it before you even start repairing. And pulling SCVs to repair costs mining time + spends minerals actively.
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Have any of you terrans experimented banshee harass into BIO, or even into expansion?
Banshees can force the protoss to stay in base massing stalkers and probably observers; while you can make a tech switch, or even take the time to defend an expansion? just an idea...
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I believe that the MU has put more pressure on Terran for certain in the sense that Terran cannot FE. So knowing that FE is near impossible the next question is WHEN can we expand? The only way to answer this is by proper scouting. If we see 2 gate right off the bat then we know he is going a heavy Tier 1 push. If gate to cybernetics then we can safely assume that he is going an immortal push (or DT's perhaps). So depending on what his inital BO is we can prepare for the push that is about to come while also having a timeline in our head as to when we can safely expand. Again, FE is dead but that doesnt mean we cannot expand, its just going to be later and it has to be followed up with a counterattack after the protoss's inital push.
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@ louder, you got the working of chronoboost wrong. Chronoboost boosts production by 50%, in other words build time becomes 66% (1 / 1.5) of the original and NOT 50%. Thus boosted immortals take 26.7 secs.
@ diaspora
toss always opens fast cyber against terran, just for the possibility of a fast stalker. After cyber completion and before the stalker finishes terran has a gap of seeing what build the toss will open with, fast immortal or multiple gateways. The problem is that even if you do see that it's still nearly impossible to counter.
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On April 14 2010 23:58 Markwerf wrote:
@ louder, you got the working of chronoboost wrong. Chronoboost boosts production by 50%, in other words build time becomes 66% (1 / 1.5) of the original and NOT 50%. Thus boosted immortals take 26.7 secs.
@ diaspora
toss always opens fast cyber against terran, just for the possibility of a fast stalker. After cyber completion and before the stalker finishes terran has a gap of seeing what build the toss will open with, fast immortal or multiple gateways. The problem is that even if you do see that it's still nearly impossible to counter.
it doesnt matter
immortal still gets produced the absolute quickest in the entire game for their mineral/gas cost. when they r done they dont need any upgrades and against a terran early game they dont really have any counter, except for marines but they build too slow to be able to be a threat of any kind early game anyway. chrono boost is just the cherry on top of it all, it would still produce too fast without it
im pretty confident blizzard will add an upgrade for force field or increase the cost of it and im also confident they will increase the build time of immortals
im really glad that louder knows so much about this mu and says all this, i agree with all u said
early game toss dont need to upgrade anything, while terran has a lot of low tier upgrades thats almost a must to put up a good fight money-wise
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Blizzard has said that Terran is getting a buff / change in the next patches because they are losing more then they are winning.
Well see how next patch goes, in the meanwhile, just try to hold on .P
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On April 14 2010 23:40 Nyovne wrote:
I've been having great succes with fast 1 fact thor with reactor (after fact starts) marines all the time into expo (orbital inbase first before lifting), while adding 2nd rax with tech and ghosts after the cc starts with nonstop rines and thors and then after expanding adding 3 more rax with ghost marauder + 1-2 starport banshee/medivac, metal +att grades and both infantry ups.
Thanks to Jinro for this one, totally turned my TvP around. Thor always was my core unit vs Z and now is it as well vs P. Especially with 10 scvs on autorepair along and their special cannon ability vs immortals and collossi. Imho thors totally need to have 2 base armour and their "spell" range changed/increased to their normal ground attack range.
Anyways just putting it out there, hope it might help someone ;p. Lategame army of thor marauder ghost banshee hellion marine (1 rax reactor, 3 rax tech, 1 fact tech, 1 fact reactor, 1-2 port tech) has been doing really well for me. The thor + marines counter voidray rushes well, DTs are still -.-, and thor marine does really well vs stalker pushes. The ghost(s) comes out in time for me as well along with some marauders for some P push.
2nd gas around when you start fax should work out right before or after as mins permit.
Thank you. Can't wait to try this out.
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On April 14 2010 22:27 lew wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2010 21:57 Makica wrote:
I wish these forums had a highlight on threads for intelligent posts, like the way Battle.net forum threads receive a blue highlight if a Blizzard employee wrote in them. I feel as though this post contributed the most because it has a great mindset for people to take note of. I can understand that it is nice to see what he writes, as a protoss player. It makes you feel like you are winning against terrans because you are skilled (I am not saying that you are not skilled). My question to incontrol: did you play terran after patch 8? So yes: what do you suggest? People suggest to "just EMP the protoss army and you will be fine". They forget 1 thing: you need alot of gas to make a ghost, wich is not possible very early without sacrificing building other units. We got marauders and we got marines (early game), and that's it. Early reaper is an option, indeed. Mech is not an option, immortals will easily destroy it.
all races mine gas at the same rate, so why does the Terran automatically get to somehow use an army that costs less gas and get away with it?
Toss needs: zeals(0 gas) Stalkers(50 gas), Sentries(100 gas), Immortals(100gas)
Terran needs: marines (0gas), Marauders(25 gas), Ghost(150 gas)
if you arnt building ghosts you are spending a fraction of what the toss spends on his army. does it not make sense to any of you that a more tech heavy/gas intensive army SHOULD beat a lower tech one? If a Stalker/sentry/immortal combo can't beat pure marine-marauder, THAT would be a glaring imbalance. Ghost academy is cheaper and lower on the tech tree than robo bay, there is no reason that you should not have ghosts when he has immortals knocking on your door. Now on the other hand if Terran gets ghosts EMP's the entire toss army, focuses the immortals with his marauders and STILL loses, then we may have a problem
It should be impossible for the toss to stop EMP that early in the game since ghost cant be sniped before instant EMP goes off. EMP negates immortal hardened shield AND all sentry abilities, making them basically a waste of 100 gas.
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On April 14 2010 23:45 Louder wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2010 23:40 Nyovne wrote:
I've been having great succes with fast 1 fact thor with reactor (after fact starts) marines all the time into expo (orbital inbase first before lifting), while adding 2nd rax with tech and ghosts after the cc starts with nonstop rines and thors and then after expanding adding 3 more rax with ghost marauder + 1-2 starport banshee/medivac, metal +att grades and both infantry ups.
Thanks to Jinro for this one, totally turned my TvP around. Thor always was my core unit vs Z and now is it as well vs P. Especially with 10 scvs on autorepair along and their special cannon ability vs immortals and collossi. Imho thors totally need to have 2 base armour and their "spell" range changed/increased to their normal ground attack range.
Anyways just putting it out there, hope it might help someone ;p. Lategame army of thor marauder ghost banshee hellion marine (1 rax reactor, 3 rax tech, 1 fact tech, 1 fact reactor, 1-2 port tech) has been doing really well for me. The thor + marines counter voidray rushes well, DTs are still -.-, and thor marine does really well vs stalker pushes. The ghost(s) comes out in time for me as well along with some marauders for some P push.
2nd gas around when you start fax should work out right before or after as mins permit. I'm pretty confident that a zealot/sentry/immortal attack would destroy this. 3 Immortals focus firing a Thor will possibly kill it before you even start repairing. And pulling SCVs to repair costs mining time + spends minerals actively.
Louder is right. Thor builds are garbage TvP. If you can miraculously expand while doing a tank build, you're actually in great shape. Standard ghostmech is very very strong and tank/hellion/ghost/turret is so ridiculously good midgame/lategame. The problem is you can't get there if you open bio because you're committed to a different tech path, and you can't get an expo up if you open with it because you're so vulnerable without the cliff/range advantages.
I happen to agree with you, Morrow. Force field probably will be nerfed (which will make PvZ a lot easier early game for Z.) and immortals will be changed in some way, probably tech level or hardened shields will be an upgrade. Both of those would probably work.
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On April 14 2010 23:58 Markwerf wrote:
@ louder, you got the working of chronoboost wrong. Chronoboost boosts production by 50%, in other words build time becomes 66% (1 / 1.5) of the original and NOT 50%. Thus boosted immortals take 26.7 secs.
@ diaspora
toss always opens fast cyber against terran, just for the possibility of a fast stalker. After cyber completion and before the stalker finishes terran has a gap of seeing what build the toss will open with, fast immortal or multiple gateways. The problem is that even if you do see that it's still nearly impossible to counter.
where do you get this? [bolded text]
because tho im a terran player, i do believe the tooltip for chrono read something to this effect, "can be casted on buildings. causes affected buildings to operate 50% faster for 20 seconds."
i dont think that it says anything about 50% of the 'originial'
even so, i dont know wher eyou get this figure of 66%. if the build time is 100%, and this boosts production by 50%, pretty simple math knows that 50% of 100 is 50....
im not saying your wrong, just asking for explanation
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100%+50% = 150%. Build time is the inverse of production so 1/150% = 66%. That's how the math goes, but it really depends on what blizzard really meant by 50% faster. If it's simply 100%-50% = 50% then that's where 50% comes from. I'd like to know which is right.
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However you want to think of it, Chrono Boost always takes 10 seconds off the current build time. Why? Because you're doing 30 seconds of 'work' in 20 seconds.
If you build 2 Probes, and Chrono, you get them in 24 seconds, not 34.
If you Chrono a Zealot, you get it in 23 seconds, not 33.
If you Chrono a Stalker, you get it in 32 seconds, not 42.
And if you Chrono an Immortal, you get it in 40 seconds, not 50.
And if you think nerfing Force Field is such a great idea, what exactly would you like the big flag in front of our base to say? "Welcoming all Zerg, particularly Banelings! Come join the party!"
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On April 15 2010 00:28 fulmetljaket wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2010 23:58 Markwerf wrote:
@ louder, you got the working of chronoboost wrong. Chronoboost boosts production by 50%, in other words build time becomes 66% (1 / 1.5) of the original and NOT 50%. Thus boosted immortals take 26.7 secs.
@ diaspora
toss always opens fast cyber against terran, just for the possibility of a fast stalker. After cyber completion and before the stalker finishes terran has a gap of seeing what build the toss will open with, fast immortal or multiple gateways. The problem is that even if you do see that it's still nearly impossible to counter. where do you get this? [bolded text] because tho im a terran player, i do believe the tooltip for chrono read something to this effect, "can be casted on buildings. causes affected buildings to operate 50% faster for 20 seconds." i dont think that it says anything about 50% of the 'originial' even so, i dont know wher eyou get this figure of 66%. if the build time is 100%, and this boosts production by 50%, pretty simple math knows that 50% of 100 is 50.... im not saying your wrong, just asking for explanation
Orb actually timed it, Chrono Immortals come out in ~27 seconds, not 20. 40/1.5=26.667
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Leaving the math explanations to some match teachers, i must say that i didn't expect this matchup to still be a problem after all those nerfs. I even switched from playing toss to terran because i really feel toss have been overnerfed. I'd like to see some updated stats on platinum matches, not that i think balancing must be done with stats but if protoss are still losing most of the games, including pvt, asking for another protoss nerf makes little sense.
I'm not a high level player (high gold league right now) so my experience is different, i can open with banshees/viking and get at least map control while harassing, or open with 3 rax (2 tech 1 reactor), i'll never open with a fe before getting map control in some way. I don't even use reapers because i don't really like that kind of rush, all those resources for minimal harassment, and they become useless afterwards.
If you read my posts yesterday i have an update, finding some more decent protoss players it seems, they make it harder to snipe obs with vikings because they protect them better by putting them on top and a little behind their army. Comes down to being able to snipe it anyway with good timing i guess, and sometimes i won't be able to do that because my losses would be too high. Still banshee/viking gives at least map control and they both counter immortals. Vikings in ground mode destroy immortals, in the last game i played i just landed all my vikings on top of the immortals while the battle was going on, the immortals just disappeared :D I'll see what happens once i get to play vs platinum protoss.
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On April 15 2010 00:40 Bibdy wrote:
However you want to think of it, Chrono Boost always takes 10 seconds off the current build time. Why? Because you're doing 30 seconds of 'work' in 20 seconds.
If you build 2 Probes, and Chrono, you get them in 24 seconds, not 34.
If you Chrono a Zealot, you get it in 23 seconds, not 33.
If you Chrono a Stalker, you get it in 32 seconds, not 42.
And if you Chrono an Immortal, you get it in 40 seconds, not 50.
And if you think nerfing Force Field is such a great idea, what exactly would you like the big flag in front of our base to say? "Welcoming all Zerg, particularly Banelings! Come join the party!"
immortals take 40 seconds to build, not 50. its true, an immortal takes 40 seconds to build, its sick and thats why i think they will add more to it xd
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I certainly wouldnt downplay the importance of a well timed reaper harass. Even if it only snipes 2 probes it puts the pressure on protoss to watch their mineral line and to leave stalkers to protect their probes. Mid-game reaper harasses can be extremely effective given the map. As long as you keep the protoss antsy expecting harassment they will be less likely to push out.
I'd really like to experiment with a fast tech to banshee harass, followed up with marauders+ravens. I haven't toyed with ravens as of yet in TvP but that point defense drone can be pivotal (unless of course there are HT on the field feedbacking).
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On April 15 2010 00:40 Bibdy wrote:
However you want to think of it, Chrono Boost always takes 10 seconds off the current build time. Why? Because you're doing 30 seconds of 'work' in 20 seconds.
If you build 2 Probes, and Chrono, you get them in 24 seconds, not 34.
If you Chrono a Zealot, you get it in 23 seconds, not 33.
If you Chrono a Stalker, you get it in 32 seconds, not 42.
And if you Chrono an Immortal, you get it in 40 seconds, not 50.
And if you think nerfing Force Field is such a great idea, what exactly would you like the big flag in front of our base to say? "Welcoming all Zerg, particularly Banelings! Come join the party!"
1 boost saves around 7 sec.. Old 30sec boost saved 10
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On April 14 2010 23:58 Markwerf wrote:
@ louder, you got the working of chronoboost wrong. Chronoboost boosts production by 50%, in other words build time becomes 66% (1 / 1.5) of the original and NOT 50%. Thus boosted immortals take 26.7 secs.
@ diaspora
toss always opens fast cyber against terran, just for the possibility of a fast stalker. After cyber completion and before the stalker finishes terran has a gap of seeing what build the toss will open with, fast immortal or multiple gateways. The problem is that even if you do see that it's still nearly impossible to counter.
Woo. So immortals come out a second after a terran marine does. Meanwhile it takes us 45 seconds to build a tank that immortals kill in 3 shots.
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The idea of more upgrades that are necessary in the matchup anyway (and this is exactly what the Marauder nerf was - it's not as if Terrans should stop using Marauders) is absolutely terrible. An Immortal upgrade for hardened shields is something I hope never comes into the game, simply because it will be a necessary upgrade every single game anyway. What is the point of an upgrade if the unit is not worth it's normal cost without it?
Adding upgrades for tier1 units at later tiers is a fine way of doing things. Zergling attack, Zealot charge, Stalker blink, Roach burrow/regen, etc. Adding upgrades that are required nearly the moment you create the unit is just sad. At this point, there are already enough upgrades in SC2, and it's to the point where the less overtly powerful half of them don't ever get used. Adding even more things that don't actually enhance gameplay in any way is just bad design practice.
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As many other people have pointed out in other threads, the immortal isn't the root of the problem. The reason why the immortal is so ridiculous is it has to be because roaches and marauders are ridiculous. Even with the Patch 8 nerfs, they still are very strong for their respective costs.
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In BW people never got ultras without getting the armor up and speed upgrade; they were worthless without it
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On April 15 2010 00:50 Chen wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2010 00:28 fulmetljaket wrote:On April 14 2010 23:58 Markwerf wrote:
@ louder, you got the working of chronoboost wrong. Chronoboost boosts production by 50%, in other words build time becomes 66% (1 / 1.5) of the original and NOT 50%. Thus boosted immortals take 26.7 secs.
@ diaspora
toss always opens fast cyber against terran, just for the possibility of a fast stalker. After cyber completion and before the stalker finishes terran has a gap of seeing what build the toss will open with, fast immortal or multiple gateways. The problem is that even if you do see that it's still nearly impossible to counter. where do you get this? [bolded text] because tho im a terran player, i do believe the tooltip for chrono read something to this effect, "can be casted on buildings. causes affected buildings to operate 50% faster for 20 seconds." i dont think that it says anything about 50% of the 'originial' even so, i dont know wher eyou get this figure of 66%. if the build time is 100%, and this boosts production by 50%, pretty simple math knows that 50% of 100 is 50.... im not saying your wrong, just asking for explanation Orb actually timed it, Chrono Immortals come out in ~27 seconds, not 20. 40/1.5=26.667
yea, which maens that for the duration of the chrono, its 50% faster....
assuming that you are 'probably' going to be building more than one immortal, i would imagine the first immortal would be chrono'd the whole way thru for the dual boost so you can hit that second one with the run off....
im not a toss tho
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On April 15 2010 01:02 iounas wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2010 00:40 Bibdy wrote:
However you want to think of it, Chrono Boost always takes 10 seconds off the current build time. Why? Because you're doing 30 seconds of 'work' in 20 seconds.
If you build 2 Probes, and Chrono, you get them in 24 seconds, not 34.
If you Chrono a Zealot, you get it in 23 seconds, not 33.
If you Chrono a Stalker, you get it in 32 seconds, not 42.
And if you Chrono an Immortal, you get it in 40 seconds, not 50.
And if you think nerfing Force Field is such a great idea, what exactly would you like the big flag in front of our base to say? "Welcoming all Zerg, particularly Banelings! Come join the party!" 1 boost saves around 7 sec.. Old 30sec boost saved 10
What? The old 30 second boost allowed you to do 45 seconds of 'work' in 30 seconds. The current one lets you do 30 seconds of 'work' in 20.
When you boost a Zealot, you finish 30s of the total 33s, in 20 seconds, then there's 3 seconds left over, which run normally, bringing the total to 23.
When you boost a Stalker, you finish 30s of the total 42, in 20 seconds, then there's 12 seconds left over, bringing the total to 32.
One boost = 10 seconds, provided what you're building has a base build time of 30s or more. That's it.
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On April 15 2010 01:10 QibingZero wrote:
The idea of more upgrades that are necessary in the matchup anyway (and this is exactly what the Marauder nerf was - it's not as if Terrans should stop using Marauders) is absolutely terrible. An Immortal upgrade for hardened shields is something I hope never comes into the game, simply because it will be a necessary upgrade every single game anyway. What is the point of an upgrade if the unit is not worth it's normal cost without it?
Adding upgrades for tier1 units at later tiers is a fine way of doing things. Zergling attack, Zealot charge, Stalker blink, Roach burrow/regen, etc. Adding upgrades that are required nearly the moment you create the unit is just sad. At this point, there are already enough upgrades in SC2, and it's to the point where the less overtly powerful half of them don't ever get used. Adding even more things that don't actually enhance gameplay in any way is just bad design practice.
Broodwar had goliath range, goon range, hydra range/speed, ling speed, siege mode, vulture mines, vulture speed, stim, zealot speed, storm, carrier interceptor capacity and more. Not getting any of these upgrades was a serious game decision if you wanted to use those units as the core of your army. You're saying that broodwar has stupid gameplay and was badly designed? Nice trolling but totally fail.
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On April 15 2010 01:10 QibingZero wrote:
What is the point of an upgrade if the unit is not worth it's normal cost without it?
Have you heard of what they call.... the ultralisk?
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On April 15 2010 01:10 QibingZero wrote:
The idea of more upgrades that are necessary in the matchup anyway (and this is exactly what the Marauder nerf was - it's not as if Terrans should stop using Marauders) is absolutely terrible. An Immortal upgrade for hardened shields is something I hope never comes into the game, simply because it will be a necessary upgrade every single game anyway. What is the point of an upgrade if the unit is not worth it's normal cost without it?
Adding upgrades for tier1 units at later tiers is a fine way of doing things. Zergling attack, Zealot charge, Stalker blink, Roach burrow/regen, etc. Adding upgrades that are required nearly the moment you create the unit is just sad. At this point, there are already enough upgrades in SC2, and it's to the point where the less overtly powerful half of them don't ever get used. Adding even more things that don't actually enhance gameplay in any way is just bad design practice.
So, it was okay that Zealots couldn't step foot anywhere near the Terran army without a T2 upgrade, but its totally unfair that Marauders have to sit behind a wall of depots for safety for a couple of minutes without a T1.5 upgrade before they can do it in the field?
Seriously, this topic is getting stupid. Battering down a Protoss inside his own base for 2 minutes flat at the start of the game with a single unit type, is not cool. Complain about getting some other improvements here or there, but the Conc Shell thing had to happen.
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On April 15 2010 01:15 Floophead_III wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2010 01:10 QibingZero wrote:
The idea of more upgrades that are necessary in the matchup anyway (and this is exactly what the Marauder nerf was - it's not as if Terrans should stop using Marauders) is absolutely terrible. An Immortal upgrade for hardened shields is something I hope never comes into the game, simply because it will be a necessary upgrade every single game anyway. What is the point of an upgrade if the unit is not worth it's normal cost without it?
Adding upgrades for tier1 units at later tiers is a fine way of doing things. Zergling attack, Zealot charge, Stalker blink, Roach burrow/regen, etc. Adding upgrades that are required nearly the moment you create the unit is just sad. At this point, there are already enough upgrades in SC2, and it's to the point where the less overtly powerful half of them don't ever get used. Adding even more things that don't actually enhance gameplay in any way is just bad design practice. Broodwar had goliath range, goon range, hydra range/speed, ling speed, siege mode, vulture mines, vulture speed, stim, zealot speed, storm, carrier interceptor capacity and more. Not getting any of these upgrades was a serious game decision if you wanted to use those units as the core of your army. You're saying that broodwar has stupid gameplay and was badly designed? Nice trolling but totally fail.
I'd love to believe you're purposefully this way, but there's a better chance you're just oblivious. I mean did you even read my post, or just like 2 lines of it? I'm sure you think I'm just some random player arguing against Terran and that you need to purge me, eh?
I mean, what are you adding to this conversation? 5 or so posts ago you're too lazy to even start a custom game as Protoss and watch how chrono boost works. Now you're responding within 5 minutes to my post and missing the point entirely. Should I make a comment about how mech isn't viable so you can continue being a reactionary in stride? -.-
On April 15 2010 01:25 Bibdy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2010 01:10 QibingZero wrote:
The idea of more upgrades that are necessary in the matchup anyway (and this is exactly what the Marauder nerf was - it's not as if Terrans should stop using Marauders) is absolutely terrible. An Immortal upgrade for hardened shields is something I hope never comes into the game, simply because it will be a necessary upgrade every single game anyway. What is the point of an upgrade if the unit is not worth it's normal cost without it?
Adding upgrades for tier1 units at later tiers is a fine way of doing things. Zergling attack, Zealot charge, Stalker blink, Roach burrow/regen, etc. Adding upgrades that are required nearly the moment you create the unit is just sad. At this point, there are already enough upgrades in SC2, and it's to the point where the less overtly powerful half of them don't ever get used. Adding even more things that don't actually enhance gameplay in any way is just bad design practice. So, it was okay that Zealots couldn't step foot anywhere near the Terran army without a T2 upgrade, but its totally unfair that Marauders have to sit behind a wall of depots for safety for a couple of minutes without a T1.5 upgrade before they can do it in the field? Seriously, this topic is getting stupid. Battering down a Protoss inside his own base for 2 minutes flat at the start of the game with a single unit type, is not cool. Complain about getting some other improvements here or there, but the Conc Shell thing had to happen.
Ironically, this person also misses the point, but thinks I'm bashing Protoss instead.
It's not about race. It's about the fact that creating a somewhat interesting unit, and then completely removing the main draw to said unit while placing it as an upgrade really does nothing to enhance the game. Does a Marauder make sense without the slow? Does an Immortal make sense without hardened shields? No and no. Is it that hard?
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On April 15 2010 01:19 Vexx wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2010 01:10 QibingZero wrote:
What is the point of an upgrade if the unit is not worth it's normal cost without it?
Have you heard of what they call.... the ultralisk?
Not to mention Immortals do a sick amount of damage to armored units as it is - it's not like the Immortal is useless without Hardened Shield.
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On April 15 2010 01:26 QibingZero wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2010 01:15 Floophead_III wrote:On April 15 2010 01:10 QibingZero wrote:
The idea of more upgrades that are necessary in the matchup anyway (and this is exactly what the Marauder nerf was - it's not as if Terrans should stop using Marauders) is absolutely terrible. An Immortal upgrade for hardened shields is something I hope never comes into the game, simply because it will be a necessary upgrade every single game anyway. What is the point of an upgrade if the unit is not worth it's normal cost without it?
Adding upgrades for tier1 units at later tiers is a fine way of doing things. Zergling attack, Zealot charge, Stalker blink, Roach burrow/regen, etc. Adding upgrades that are required nearly the moment you create the unit is just sad. At this point, there are already enough upgrades in SC2, and it's to the point where the less overtly powerful half of them don't ever get used. Adding even more things that don't actually enhance gameplay in any way is just bad design practice. Broodwar had goliath range, goon range, hydra range/speed, ling speed, siege mode, vulture mines, vulture speed, stim, zealot speed, storm, carrier interceptor capacity and more. Not getting any of these upgrades was a serious game decision if you wanted to use those units as the core of your army. You're saying that broodwar has stupid gameplay and was badly designed? Nice trolling but totally fail. I'd love to believe you're purposefully this way, but there's a better chance you're just oblivious. I mean did you even read my post, or just like 2 lines of it? I'm sure you think I'm just some random player arguing against Terran and that you need to purge me, eh? I mean, what are you adding to this conversation? 5 or so posts ago you're too lazy to even start a custom game as Protoss and watch how chrono boost works. Now you're responding within 5 minutes to my post and missing the point entirely. Should I make a comment about how mech isn't viable so you can continue being a reactionary in stride? -.- Show nested quote +On April 15 2010 01:25 Bibdy wrote:On April 15 2010 01:10 QibingZero wrote:
The idea of more upgrades that are necessary in the matchup anyway (and this is exactly what the Marauder nerf was - it's not as if Terrans should stop using Marauders) is absolutely terrible. An Immortal upgrade for hardened shields is something I hope never comes into the game, simply because it will be a necessary upgrade every single game anyway. What is the point of an upgrade if the unit is not worth it's normal cost without it?
Adding upgrades for tier1 units at later tiers is a fine way of doing things. Zergling attack, Zealot charge, Stalker blink, Roach burrow/regen, etc. Adding upgrades that are required nearly the moment you create the unit is just sad. At this point, there are already enough upgrades in SC2, and it's to the point where the less overtly powerful half of them don't ever get used. Adding even more things that don't actually enhance gameplay in any way is just bad design practice. So, it was okay that Zealots couldn't step foot anywhere near the Terran army without a T2 upgrade, but its totally unfair that Marauders have to sit behind a wall of depots for safety for a couple of minutes without a T1.5 upgrade before they can do it in the field? Seriously, this topic is getting stupid. Battering down a Protoss inside his own base for 2 minutes flat at the start of the game with a single unit type, is not cool. Complain about getting some other improvements here or there, but the Conc Shell thing had to happen. Ironically, this person also misses the point, but thinks I'm bashing Protoss instead. My how the world turns.
Maybe if the first 2 people responding to you, 'didn't get it', you portrayed your idea wrong.
From what I gather, you're saying that Marauders are useless without the upgrade. If you're not saying that, why are you complaining that "What is the point of an upgrade if the unit is not worth it's normal cost without it?"? A Marauder is cheap as all hell. NOT having to do an upgrade is a damn crime against nature.
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On April 15 2010 01:29 Bibdy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2010 01:26 QibingZero wrote:On April 15 2010 01:15 Floophead_III wrote:On April 15 2010 01:10 QibingZero wrote:
The idea of more upgrades that are necessary in the matchup anyway (and this is exactly what the Marauder nerf was - it's not as if Terrans should stop using Marauders) is absolutely terrible. An Immortal upgrade for hardened shields is something I hope never comes into the game, simply because it will be a necessary upgrade every single game anyway. What is the point of an upgrade if the unit is not worth it's normal cost without it?
Adding upgrades for tier1 units at later tiers is a fine way of doing things. Zergling attack, Zealot charge, Stalker blink, Roach burrow/regen, etc. Adding upgrades that are required nearly the moment you create the unit is just sad. At this point, there are already enough upgrades in SC2, and it's to the point where the less overtly powerful half of them don't ever get used. Adding even more things that don't actually enhance gameplay in any way is just bad design practice. Broodwar had goliath range, goon range, hydra range/speed, ling speed, siege mode, vulture mines, vulture speed, stim, zealot speed, storm, carrier interceptor capacity and more. Not getting any of these upgrades was a serious game decision if you wanted to use those units as the core of your army. You're saying that broodwar has stupid gameplay and was badly designed? Nice trolling but totally fail. I'd love to believe you're purposefully this way, but there's a better chance you're just oblivious. I mean did you even read my post, or just like 2 lines of it? I'm sure you think I'm just some random player arguing against Terran and that you need to purge me, eh? I mean, what are you adding to this conversation? 5 or so posts ago you're too lazy to even start a custom game as Protoss and watch how chrono boost works. Now you're responding within 5 minutes to my post and missing the point entirely. Should I make a comment about how mech isn't viable so you can continue being a reactionary in stride? -.- On April 15 2010 01:25 Bibdy wrote:On April 15 2010 01:10 QibingZero wrote:
The idea of more upgrades that are necessary in the matchup anyway (and this is exactly what the Marauder nerf was - it's not as if Terrans should stop using Marauders) is absolutely terrible. An Immortal upgrade for hardened shields is something I hope never comes into the game, simply because it will be a necessary upgrade every single game anyway. What is the point of an upgrade if the unit is not worth it's normal cost without it?
Adding upgrades for tier1 units at later tiers is a fine way of doing things. Zergling attack, Zealot charge, Stalker blink, Roach burrow/regen, etc. Adding upgrades that are required nearly the moment you create the unit is just sad. At this point, there are already enough upgrades in SC2, and it's to the point where the less overtly powerful half of them don't ever get used. Adding even more things that don't actually enhance gameplay in any way is just bad design practice. So, it was okay that Zealots couldn't step foot anywhere near the Terran army without a T2 upgrade, but its totally unfair that Marauders have to sit behind a wall of depots for safety for a couple of minutes without a T1.5 upgrade before they can do it in the field? Seriously, this topic is getting stupid. Battering down a Protoss inside his own base for 2 minutes flat at the start of the game with a single unit type, is not cool. Complain about getting some other improvements here or there, but the Conc Shell thing had to happen. Ironically, this person also misses the point, but thinks I'm bashing Protoss instead. My how the world turns. Maybe if the first 2 people responding to you, 'didn't get it', you portrayed your idea wrong. From what I gather, you're saying that Marauders are useless without the upgrade. If you're not saying that, why are you complaining that "What is the point of an upgrade if the unit is not worth it's normal cost without it?"? A Marauder is cheap as all hell. NOT having to do an upgrade is a damn crime against nature.
IMO, no matter how much you nerf Marauder/Roach/Immortal, the big issue is that all 3 units have high HP and deal a lot of damage for their cost.
The issue is that, ON TOP OF their high HP and high damage dealing capabilities, these units also have special effects. Marauders have concussive shells, roaches have fast HP regen when burrowed, and Immortals have Hardened Shield. They're just really really good units.
Maybe try to have upgrades mandatory for the special abilities of all 3? I mean Roach already needs burrow research and Marauders already need concussive shell research, why not make Hardened Shield an upgrade for Support Bay?
I'm not saying this will balance anything for sure, it's just an idea I'm throwing out there.
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haha, cant wait until the koreans really bite into the game. all those little whine threads will be shaken up completely.
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Ugh people that suggest a 'hardened shield' upgrade never thought this idea through. First of all, it would be a ugly solution as it would hugely influence PvZ as well. More importantly though, where would this so-called upgrade be researched?
At the robo bay itself? wouldn't make sense flavor wise (it has no upgrades at the moment) and you would have to choose between making immortals or getting the upgrade.
At the support bay? Wouldn't be good for strategy diversity, you would be forced to get a support bay if you are to use the robo bay then. Now the support bay is not so neccesary if you just use immortals and a observer/warp prism or 2.
At the cybernetics core? Would mingle alot with getting warpgate which takes a huge amount of time already. Pre-warpgate would delay warpgate by a ton and post-warpgate it would come way very late.
Concussive shells was a easy addition to the marauder as that would fit nicely at the tech-lab, a upgrade of any kind for immortals just doesn't fit equally well.
A modest increase in build time seems to be a much better solution, just adding random upgrades is not a nice way to fix the game. The marauder presented a unique problem in that the slow was overpowered in the very early game that the upgrade was the only way to fix it without nerfing the use for marauders lategame.
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Why do all the Terrans in this thread expect a T1 army to beat a T2 army?
If Protoss has Immortals, you should have ghosts.
Protoss tech tree: Gateway ---> Cybernetics Core ----> Robotics Facility ----> Immortal
Terran tech tree: Barracks ---> Ghost Academy ---> Ghost
It's even faster. Have you seen how fast Immortals die to Ghosts + Tanks?
What is wrong with going 2-3 Barracks and Factory units? What is wrong with relying on EMP to counter Immortals?
This type of play is no more micro intensive than Forcefield + Storm, and much easier in tech to get.
Note to Terran players: You have a 75 energy ability that takes no research that halves almost every Protoss unit's health in a battle, and takes all energy. It also eliminates hardened shell.
Why do you think you can get away with not using it when massing bio?
It'd be like a Protoss complaining about Tanks and Thors while not building an Immortal. You have a hard counter to Immortal. It's called a ghost.
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Have you guys tried going 4 Rax no gas/addons FE? You build only marines and you FE while you build about 3 bunkers to defend your nat. It's been very successful for me lately, haven't lost with it yet. (Top 10 Plat Protosses). The problem with the build though is that you HAVE to make sure the Protoss is going Immortals, otherwise he can just go Collosi and rape your army rofl. It doesn't work too well on maps with two chokepoints sadly, but it worked well fro me on maps like Steppes of War.
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On April 15 2010 01:47 Markwerf wrote:
Ugh people that suggest a 'hardened shield' upgrade never thought this idea through. First of all, it would be a ugly solution as it would hugely influence PvZ as well. More importantly though, where would this so-called upgrade be researched?
At the robo bay itself? wouldn't make sense flavor wise (it has no upgrades at the moment) and you would have to choose between making immortals or getting the upgrade.
At the support bay? Wouldn't be good for strategy diversity, you would be forced to get a support bay if you are to use the robo bay then. Now the support bay is not so neccesary if you just use immortals and a observer/warp prism or 2.
At the cybernetics core? Would mingle alot with getting warpgate which takes a huge amount of time already. Pre-warpgate would delay warpgate by a ton and post-warpgate it would come way very late.
Concussive shells was a easy addition to the marauder as that would fit nicely at the tech-lab, a upgrade of any kind for immortals just doesn't fit equally well.
A modest increase in build time seems to be a much better solution, just adding random upgrades is not a nice way to fix the game. The marauder presented a unique problem in that the slow was overpowered in the very early game that the upgrade was the only way to fix it without nerfing the use for marauders lategame.
Please listen to this guy, he knows what he's talking about. The marauder issue was a very specific problem that only dealt with early game. The Conc. shells upgrade was an easy fix for that, which allowed mid/late game to remain untouched. Adding an upgrade for hardened shields would be a very very sloppy fix, when much better alternatives are out there. Again, completely agreeing with markwerf here, a 10 second build time increase would be modest enough, while still getting the job done.
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It's not easy relying on a single unit to block push timing, but then again we had siege tanks to block dragoon ramp block busting
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I can tell we just had a huge influx of protoss players join this thread and fail to see the point.
A terran HAS to make a heavy tier 1-1.5 army just to survive the gateway push - with bunkers the whole lot, pumping every resource he has into this. Meanwhile the protoss can easily expo and out resource the terran - this is the problem - that the terran cannot survive early without getting some kinda force together, while the protoss can can tech even, while pumping out 4 warpgates and immortals while the terrans later tech units make little difference - (Immortals counter all ground terran has, and HT's counter anything that counters the immortal - see the problem late game?).
And i'm not even talking about late game, the problem for terrans right now is surviving the early game without being too far behind mid-late. People who fail to see this are enjoying the easy life of 4 warpgate rushing terrans and winning with relative ease.
I spoke with several top protoss players on Europe who all agreed that the MU right now is very heavily favoured towards the protoss - and the only way they lose is if they make a big mistake micro/macro wise or don't scout (pretty hard not to scout with a obs!).
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On April 15 2010 01:44 deo.deo wrote:
haha, cant wait until the koreans really bite into the game. all those little whine threads will be shaken up completely.
as it is now im pretty sure sc2 wont last in korea, why? koreans love hard games and sc2 doesnt qualify for that afaik :x
On April 15 2010 01:54 Prozen wrote:
Have you guys tried going 4 Rax no gas/addons FE? You build only marines and you FE while you build about 3 bunkers to defend your nat. It's been very successful for me lately, haven't lost with it yet. (Top 10 Plat Protosses). The problem with the build though is that you HAVE to make sure the Protoss is going Immortals, otherwise he can just go Collosi and rape your army rofl. It doesn't work too well on maps with two chokepoints sadly, but it worked well fro me on maps like Steppes of War.
this is basically how i was playing before patch 6 was out, it even raped colosus then
the sad part atm is that it doesnt work now, sentry -2 dmg along with immortal and zea meatshield fucking hard rape this build or they can make fast colosus which also rape it. they can even go mass zea sentry and rape it too :/
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On April 15 2010 01:47 Mirhi wrote:
Why do all the Terrans in this thread expect a T1 army to beat a T2 army?
If Protoss has Immortals, you should have ghosts.
Protoss tech tree: Gateway ---> Cybernetics Core ----> Robotics Facility ----> Immortal
Terran tech tree: Barracks ---> Ghost Academy ---> Ghost
It's even faster. Have you seen how fast Immortals die to Ghosts + Tanks?
What is wrong with going 2-3 Barracks and Factory units? What is wrong with relying on EMP to counter Immortals?
This type of play is no more micro intensive than Forcefield + Storm, and much easier in tech to get.
Note to Terran players: You have a 75 energy ability that takes no research that halves almost every Protoss unit's health in a battle, and takes all energy. It also eliminates hardened shell.
Why do you think you can get away with not using it when massing bio?
It'd be like a Protoss complaining about Tanks and Thors while not building an Immortal. You have a hard counter to Immortal. It's called a ghost.
You cannot have any sort of Ghost/Tank army on 1 base at the time that protoss would have sentry/immortal/zealot. Ghost/Tank takes an insane amount of gas. It could be possible if you could fast expo and take 4 gas quickly, but you can't because P can knock down a FE very easily.
The toss army takes a ton of gas, but they can FE much easily because T can't do much to stop it right now.
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its quite funny how making shells upgrade is good way and must be done but doing same with shields is terrible crime against balance :DDD come on face it u have unit with siege tank attack power twice as much hp and shield to neglect high dmg ;D
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On April 15 2010 02:02 PanzerDragoon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2010 01:47 Mirhi wrote:
Why do all the Terrans in this thread expect a T1 army to beat a T2 army?
If Protoss has Immortals, you should have ghosts.
Protoss tech tree: Gateway ---> Cybernetics Core ----> Robotics Facility ----> Immortal
Terran tech tree: Barracks ---> Ghost Academy ---> Ghost
It's even faster. Have you seen how fast Immortals die to Ghosts + Tanks?
What is wrong with going 2-3 Barracks and Factory units? What is wrong with relying on EMP to counter Immortals?
This type of play is no more micro intensive than Forcefield + Storm, and much easier in tech to get.
Note to Terran players: You have a 75 energy ability that takes no research that halves almost every Protoss unit's health in a battle, and takes all energy. It also eliminates hardened shell.
Why do you think you can get away with not using it when massing bio?
It'd be like a Protoss complaining about Tanks and Thors while not building an Immortal. You have a hard counter to Immortal. It's called a ghost. You cannot have any sort of Ghost/Tank army on 1 base at the time that protoss would have sentry/immortal/zealot. Ghost/Tank takes an insane amount of gas. It could be possible if you could fast expo and take 4 gas quickly, but you can't because P can knock down a FE very easily. The toss army takes a ton of gas, but they can FE much easily because T can't do much to stop it right now.
The whole point is, you can, and should. Sentries take 100 gas, Immortals take 100 gas, Stalkers take 50 gas.
I think the reason many Terrans get this impression is because of the habit of only using 1 gas for far too long.
I also challenge people to produce replays where a Protoss fast expo'd against a Terran that scouted it without repercussions. That leaves a player in such a state of vulnerability to both Banshees and a mixed ground army push.
I am trying to figure out why Terrans are complaining this much about an 80 second 100/100 upgrade. You can accomplish the same map control with reapers.
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On April 15 2010 02:02 MorroW wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2010 01:44 deo.deo wrote:
haha, cant wait until the koreans really bite into the game. all those little whine threads will be shaken up completely. as it is now im pretty sure sc2 wont last in korea, why? koreans love hard games and sc2 doesnt qualify for that afaik :x
this just really reminds me of this article about xds~grrr... going to korea, before he went there terra was thought of as being underused and underpowered.
Arriving in Seoul he played an unknown player who beat him 9-1 (something like that )in PvT it turns out that this player will be slayersboxer.
This is really a long time ago so I might be wrong on the details....
anyhoooo my point is give it time.. trying out different things, unit combination, strategies might be a good way to go in the beta...
of course you can also just wait until someone else does it and take the meantime to create new posts on teamliquid...
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On April 14 2010 19:31 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
i love how they make the grenade a cheap upgrade that takes half a minute to upgrade and everyone starts crying imbalance. Just before this "nerf" terrans were at the top of each division and improving their overall winning percentage by 13% on the EU server while P decreased and Z went up half as much as T.
It's pretty simple: Terran can't rely on the marauder early to do all the meta game damage. Terrans abused the shit out of low econ rushes while being able to divide the resources into a powerful rush AND a FE simultaneously. This was OP and had a minor fix. Rushing is still viable but expanding off that rush is slower/more expensive. Macro'ing is JUST as viable but it requires smart preparation in terms of tech path: You no longer can kinda go marauder and kinda go banshee.. you need to commit.
Overall this "nerf" just displays the poor state of spoiled terran players. They had their cake and ate it too now they are forced to blue collar it like P had to for 8 patches and Z .. well anyways.
Reaper rushes are incredibly powerful. On some maps you can get there before a stalker gets out 100% and usually before a zeal gets out. That kind of harassment is incredible.. in fact P and Z have nothing that compares with that speed/power. Banshees STILL dominate the air. Hiding that tech or switching mid game ROCKS a protoss even one that sees it coming.. still tough to hold.
I could go on but I'd rather not since I know point by point many of you will look at this and argue in general: Not enough.
See the real problem isn't the actual game or the balance of the current build. The problem is terrans have an unreal expectation for this game. They were happy when they could grab 8 scvs and whatever marines they made in that 3 seconds it took to make em all and win. They were happy when marauders came with the strongest ability in the game at tier 1.5. Now you can't do an invincible rush and marauders are stuck dealing more damage with a better range and more health than anything else at that level BUT they have to upgrade the second cheapest upgrade in the game (2nd only to overlord speed).
You guys can cry that immortals are OP. But take them out and roaches/marauders will be MORE of a problem (not less). You guys can complain about FF but none of you have had to deal with banelings as a P or a ling rush. This game is damn near perfect and it has taken me over 1k games to grind through it's issues and watch as it gets closer and closer to perfection.. you won't be successful and you won't do well sticking to what you THINK should work. You have to literally FIND what works.. which means work and practice.
No offense but this kind of makes you look like an idiot.
Yes all terrans are spoiled and just want free wins, and none of us are trying everything possible to achieve at least a 50% win rate vs toss, you got us.
To think you of all people would be slightly less biased.
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as it is now sc2 is a beta.
A BETA.
NOT the final product.
play some other games in beta and realise just how fucking lucky you are to be playing something as good as this in a beta.
seriously, think about it. if diablo 2 still got a patch, how well supported do you think sc2 will be in the first six months after release?
god. give it time before you shut the game down.
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On April 15 2010 01:54 Prozen wrote:
Have you guys tried going 4 Rax no gas/addons FE? You build only marines and you FE while you build about 3 bunkers to defend your nat. It's been very successful for me lately, haven't lost with it yet. (Top 10 Plat Protosses). The problem with the build though is that you HAVE to make sure the Protoss is going Immortals, otherwise he can just go Collosi and rape your army rofl. It doesn't work too well on maps with two chokepoints sadly, but it worked well fro me on maps like Steppes of War.
I don't see how this build could ever work versus someone that builds a sentry. I mean, hey, I just beat a rank 6 protoss with my marine/banshee strategy. Doesn't prove that it's a viable strategy though.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
@JTPROG: me of all people?
You fucking forget: I played protoss THIS entire time. I played protoss when we were the only race declining with a win % while terran had a near 15% win boost. I WORKED at it and did everything I could. I made 1 bitch post where I said "blizzard has a week" but after that even I realized I was an idiot and found a way.
I sit on a vent with multiple terran players who complain on a daily basis about how impossible this is. I come into this channel and hear a group of terran players me-owing like cats about how they need help from papa blizzard or else they will cry more tears. LITERALLY the only change they made in this last patch was making the grenade upgradable instead of FREE and everyone thinks the matchup is broken? That CAN'T be right.
Fucking OP is talking about how you HAVE to go marauders which you can't do cost effectively now because of 100 minerals/100 gas? That isn't right guys... it is the difference between 1 marauder. Do you guys actually play this game? I haven't seen a battle where had he had that 1 more marauder the entire game would have swishedddddddddd in his favor each time. And don't tell me the upgrade time smashes the meta game either. If you can't 1 rax marauder pressure a P WHILE EXPANDING anymore and you think it is the games fault then guess what? You need to change the way you play.
And to answer the deflecting people: YES I've played terran since the patch. I coach several platinum protoss players and I TvP them almost daily: AND WIN. Reaper harrass is still as strong as ever. Mixing tanks late game STILL as strong as ever.. no protoss has 10+ immortals late game and if they do you're an IDIOT for not scouting it and going bio + laughing at their easily countered tech choice. Mass templar Louder? Serious? This isn't new.. SCBW had mass templar only they were BETTER. I cannot fathom every terran getting their wish inthis thread...the would be in shambles.
And you guys can bitch about my "generalizing" when I regard most of you as "terran players." That is fine but uh, how many complaining in here don't play terran? 1? 2? Probably a few.. but I'd venture a guess this is a thread where mostly terran players vent their complaints about the mu spanning from FF to templars to immortals to collossus late game to blah blah blah.. THEY AREN'T REMOVING PROTOSS GUYS. SORRY.
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On April 15 2010 02:21 k!llua wrote:
as it is now sc2 is a beta.
A BETA.
NOT the final product.
god. give it time before you shut the game down.
Stop this. Players in the beta have to test the bugs and the balance to make a good final product.
They have to report the bugs and the imbalance.
The real answer is "post pure whine posts on battle.net".
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On April 15 2010 01:47 Mirhi wrote:
Why do all the Terrans in this thread expect a T1 army to beat a T2 army?
If Protoss has Immortals, you should have ghosts.
Protoss tech tree: Gateway ---> Cybernetics Core ----> Robotics Facility ----> Immortal
Terran tech tree: Barracks ---> Ghost Academy ---> Ghost
It's even faster. Have you seen how fast Immortals die to Ghosts + Tanks?
What is wrong with going 2-3 Barracks and Factory units? What is wrong with relying on EMP to counter Immortals?
This type of play is no more micro intensive than Forcefield + Storm, and much easier in tech to get.
Note to Terran players: You have a 75 energy ability that takes no research that halves almost every Protoss unit's health in a battle, and takes all energy. It also eliminates hardened shell.
Why do you think you can get away with not using it when massing bio?
It'd be like a Protoss complaining about Tanks and Thors while not building an Immortal. You have a hard counter to Immortal. It's called a ghost.
How many time did you play TvP after patch 8 and get raped as long as a Terran ? lol just make 2 or 3 ghosts and win the game ?
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On April 15 2010 02:34 shinosai wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2010 01:54 Prozen wrote:
Have you guys tried going 4 Rax no gas/addons FE? You build only marines and you FE while you build about 3 bunkers to defend your nat. It's been very successful for me lately, haven't lost with it yet. (Top 10 Plat Protosses). The problem with the build though is that you HAVE to make sure the Protoss is going Immortals, otherwise he can just go Collosi and rape your army rofl. It doesn't work too well on maps with two chokepoints sadly, but it worked well fro me on maps like Steppes of War. I don't see how this build could ever work versus someone that builds a sentry. I mean, hey, I just beat a rank 6 protoss with my marine/banshee strategy. Doesn't prove that it's a viable strategy though.
Actually, how about you give it a try instead of theorycrafting? It worked against a Protoss who had about 3 Immortals, 4 Stalkers, 3 Zealots, and 2 sentries. I'm pretty sure you know who Azz is? It worked on him.
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On April 15 2010 02:41 Prozen wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2010 02:34 shinosai wrote:On April 15 2010 01:54 Prozen wrote:
Have you guys tried going 4 Rax no gas/addons FE? You build only marines and you FE while you build about 3 bunkers to defend your nat. It's been very successful for me lately, haven't lost with it yet. (Top 10 Plat Protosses). The problem with the build though is that you HAVE to make sure the Protoss is going Immortals, otherwise he can just go Collosi and rape your army rofl. It doesn't work too well on maps with two chokepoints sadly, but it worked well fro me on maps like Steppes of War. I don't see how this build could ever work versus someone that builds a sentry. I mean, hey, I just beat a rank 6 protoss with my marine/banshee strategy. Doesn't prove that it's a viable strategy though. Actually, how about you give it a try instead of theorycrafting? It worked against a Protoss who had about 3 Immortals, 4 Stalkers, 3 Zealots, and 2 sentries. I'm pretty sure you know who Azz is? It worked on him.
I've played azz a few times. I find it surprising that it works vs sentry and immortals tanking. Can I see the replay?
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Hmm, just thinking here, but 4 rax into expansion with bunkers followed up by banshees (or vikings) would be a pretty strong strategy vs toss. Not sure I'm convinced that it can stop a 4 gate with good sentry use, but if it does, that may be a good way to play the game.
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![[image loading]](http://www.starcraft-replay.com/replays/link/0/socrates-vs-azz-1271267243.php)
![[image loading]](http://www.starcraft-replay.com/replays/link/0/socrates-vs-azz-1271267224.php)
and
![[image loading]](http://www.starcraft-replay.com/replays/link/0/socrates-vs-azz-1271267190.php)
Granted the game on Metalopolis, Azz went 5 Warpgate push allin, but it does defend against Immortals quite nicely.
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On April 15 2010 02:37 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
~
Yes, I'm sure Morrow and Demuslim just aren't trying hard enough, clearly the beta is 100% balanced at the moment and no further changes need to be made before release.
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I have 1600 rating platinum and I really don't understand why there are so many whine posts about PvT being impossible. No replays, low rating players voicing their opinion loudly, general references to vague OP builds.
And all this because concussive shells requires a research now? Oo ok
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On April 15 2010 02:37 {88}iNcontroL wrote:+ Show Spoiler +@JTPROG: me of all people?
You fucking forget: I played protoss THIS entire time. I played protoss when we were the only race declining with a win % while terran had a near 15% win boost. I WORKED at it and did everything I could. I made 1 bitch post where I said "blizzard has a week" but after that even I realized I was an idiot and found a way.
I sit on a vent with multiple terran players who complain on a daily basis about how impossible this is. I come into this channel and hear a group of terran players me-owing like cats about how they need help from papa blizzard or else they will cry more tears. LITERALLY the only change they made in this last patch was making the grenade upgradable instead of FREE and everyone thinks the matchup is broken? That CAN'T be right.
Fucking OP is talking about how you HAVE to go marauders which you can't do cost effectively now because of 100 minerals/100 gas? That isn't right guys... it is the difference between 1 marauder. Do you guys actually play this game? I haven't seen a battle where had he had that 1 more marauder the entire game would have swishedddddddddd in his favor each time. And don't tell me the upgrade time smashes the meta game either. If you can't 1 rax marauder pressure a P WHILE EXPANDING anymore and you think it is the games fault then guess what? You need to change the way you play.
And to answer the deflecting people: YES I've played terran since the patch. I coach several platinum protoss players and I TvP them almost daily: AND WIN. Reaper harrass is still as strong as ever. Mixing tanks late game STILL as strong as ever.. no protoss has 10+ immortals late game and if they do you're an IDIOT for not scouting it and going bio + laughing at their easily countered tech choice. Mass templar Louder? Serious? This isn't new.. SCBW had mass templar only they were BETTER. I cannot fathom every terran getting their wish inthis thread...the would be in shambles.
And you guys can bitch about my "generalizing" when I regard most of you as "terran players." That is fine but uh, how many complaining in here don't play terran? 1? 2? Probably a few.. but I'd venture a guess this is a thread where mostly terran players vent their complaints about the mu spanning from FF to templars to immortals to collossus late game to blah blah blah.. THEY AREN'T REMOVING PROTOSS GUYS. SORRY.
QFT. This. Amen.
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On April 15 2010 02:13 Mirhi wrote:
I am trying to figure out why Terrans are complaining this much about an 80 second 100/100 upgrade. You can accomplish the same map control with reapers.
I still don't understand how so many people are confused about about how big of a change this was.
READ:
On April 13 2010 04:11 BlasiuS wrote:
pre-patch 8 Terran won most of their games against protoss with builds that revolved around marauders starting out with slow:
1. 1 rax marauder FE: this worked because marauders w/slow prevented early harass on your FE. Now that marauders don't start with slow, zealots are WAY stronger v terran in the early game; this build dies to aggressive zealot harass, which will run terran over before shells are finished.
2. fast (proxy) reaper -> marauder: this build worked because reapers forced stalkers, which were then countered by marauders, which could be made immediately after 2-3 reapers, and since they started with slow, they beat stalkers very easily. Now that marauders don't start with slow, this build is unable to put any follow-up pressure after the reapers. Before shells are researched, Stalkers > Marauders in small numbers.
3. fast (proxy) marauder: this relied on marauders hitting protoss before immortals came out. It worked because marauders w/slow > stalkers or zealots that early in the game. Now that marauders don't start with slow, this build doesn't work for the same reason 1 rax marauder FE doesn't work: you get run over by zealots or zealot/sentry before your shells can benefit you.
None of these 3 builds work anymore, because marauders don't start with slow. You don't seem to recognize that it was a BIG change. Terran was hardest hit on build #1, now terran is struggling to find a build that they can FE with. From what I've seen, MoRRoW has the best FE build, with 1 rax marines -> FE -> MASS shield marines + at least 4 bunkers, and pray toss doesn't attack you before your shield upgrade is done. Even then, zealot/sentry just rapes, force field prevents SCVs from repairing bunkers, and guardian shield basically hard-counters marines.
terran can no longer do their standard TvP builds after patch 8. They had to re-learn the entire matchup from scratch. THAT'S why terrans are complaining. I know It's not valid complaining, but if you want to know why there are so many complaints, the reasons are clearly spelled out for you.
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On April 15 2010 02:46 shinosai wrote:
Hmm, just thinking here, but 4 rax into expansion with bunkers followed up by banshees (or vikings) would be a pretty strong strategy vs toss. Not sure I'm convinced that it can stop a 4 gate with good sentry use, but if it does, that may be a good way to play the game.
I've made posts in other, related threads wondering why more terrans don't go mass banshee/marine against protoss. As a platinum toss (mid-high rank depending upon which of my friends is playing most heavily), I've seen this used against me a couple times (though it started with 2 port banshee as opposed to 4 rax), and I have had trouble dealing with it even when I see it coming. Any insights from the top players?
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On April 15 2010 02:51 Seacow wrote:Yes, I'm sure Morrow and Demuslim just aren't trying hard enough, clearly the beta is 100% balanced at the moment and no further changes need to be made before release.
Yep that is exactly what I was saying. The game is perfect and muslim/morrow don't work hard enough. ORRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR I was saying that they can work as hard as they are and NOT bitch like nearly all the protoss players did when the game was obviously broken?
I STILL see morrow / muslim in the finals of nearly every tourney on EU so despite the impossible odds they've seem to have found a way. But yeah, lets nerf immortals, storm, sentry and collossus in the next patch so we can see tvt/zvz/tvz every game.
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On April 15 2010 02:37 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
@JTPROG: me of all people?
You fucking forget: I played protoss THIS entire time. I played protoss when we were the only race declining with a win % while terran had a near 15% win boost. I WORKED at it and did everything I could. I made 1 bitch post where I said "blizzard has a week" but after that even I realized I was an idiot and found a way.
I sit on a vent with multiple terran players who complain on a daily basis about how impossible this is. I come into this channel and hear a group of terran players me-owing like cats about how they need help from papa blizzard or else they will cry more tears. LITERALLY the only change they made in this last patch was making the grenade upgradable instead of FREE and everyone thinks the matchup is broken? That CAN'T be right.
Fucking OP is talking about how you HAVE to go marauders which you can't do cost effectively now because of 100 minerals/100 gas? That isn't right guys... it is the difference between 1 marauder. Do you guys actually play this game? I haven't seen a battle where had he had that 1 more marauder the entire game would have swishedddddddddd in his favor each time. And don't tell me the upgrade time smashes the meta game either. If you can't 1 rax marauder pressure a P WHILE EXPANDING anymore and you think it is the games fault then guess what? You need to change the way you play.
And to answer the deflecting people: YES I've played terran since the patch. I coach several platinum protoss players and I TvP them almost daily: AND WIN. Reaper harrass is still as strong as ever. Mixing tanks late game STILL as strong as ever.. no protoss has 10+ immortals late game and if they do you're an IDIOT for not scouting it and going bio + laughing at their easily countered tech choice. Mass templar Louder? Serious? This isn't new.. SCBW had mass templar only they were BETTER. I cannot fathom every terran getting their wish inthis thread...the would be in shambles.
And you guys can bitch about my "generalizing" when I regard most of you as "terran players." That is fine but uh, how many complaining in here don't play terran? 1? 2? Probably a few.. but I'd venture a guess this is a thread where mostly terran players vent their complaints about the mu spanning from FF to templars to immortals to collossus late game to blah blah blah.. THEY AREN'T REMOVING PROTOSS GUYS. SORRY.
You are correct, the patch was really not very significant. All it did was hurt the people who abused the matchup with quick marauder rushes, or who could pull off quick marauder expands.
And this is why I think that TvP was actually broken even before the patch, but it is only now that we realize this.
And if you want to know what I actually think is the #1 contributor to why TvP feels so broken right now, it is actually the sentry, not the immortal. In the hands of a good player this unit has limitless potential, it doensn't matter if your army is twice as big, you can still lose to forcefield abuse. Toss all-ins are just that much better when your marines damage are decreased by 33%, marauders by 20% vs zlots (10% vs stalkers) from guardian shields. Plain and simple, sentries are way too powerful in the hands of a good player. I can't imagine any amounts of marines or marauders beating sentry/zlot against a good Toss, and that's all we have early game. I've played as toss doing this and it's laughable. Immortals may be strong, but i'd feel really confident in this matchup if not for sentries.
I made a post describing this here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=119437 but it was closed cause apparently I didn't give any reasons (yeah ok, the entire post is reasons).
Trust me, every terran is doing what they can, but I feel like there's really not much we can do in this MU at this point, except for maybe abuse reapers early game or banshees if we can survive to them. We are changing the way we play, we have tried, it's just not working, It's not effective.
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On April 15 2010 02:59 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2010 02:46 shinosai wrote:
Hmm, just thinking here, but 4 rax into expansion with bunkers followed up by banshees (or vikings) would be a pretty strong strategy vs toss. Not sure I'm convinced that it can stop a 4 gate with good sentry use, but if it does, that may be a good way to play the game. I've made posts in other, related threads wondering why more terrans don't go mass banshee/marine against protoss. As a platinum toss (mid-high rank depending upon which of my friends is playing most heavily), I've seen this used against me a couple times (though it started with 2 port banshee as opposed to 4 rax), and I have had trouble dealing with it even when I see it coming. Any insights from the top players?
I've been doing marine banshee ever since the 4th patch, heh. The reason most terran don't use it is because it's very vulnerable to a sentry stalker rush. I guess if you started off with 4 raxes and a FE and transitioned into it, it would be a lot safer, though. I myself have been doing two rax->two port.
The thing of it is, I don't think I've ever lost a game once the banshees came out, but I've lost plenty before then.
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Immortals > Marauders and Marines > Immortals.
The problem is however:
However, Sentries + anything >> Marines
With a few sentries casting shields and using the remaining energy for FF, marines no longer counter Immortals at all. Since zealots, stalkers, and immortals all have 1 base armor, marines are doing 50% damage to each of those units.
Guardian sheilds + anything + immortals CANNOT be countered by any terran ground army until they have massed tanks and EMP. Too bad you can't mass tanks and EMP when you cannot expand for more gas.
Sentry sheilds should just be removed from the game or be moved to a much later tech. Protoss DOES NOT need this ability. I don't have any huge issues with immortals themselves, but rather with sentries.
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On April 15 2010 02:56 BlasiuS wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2010 02:13 Mirhi wrote:
I am trying to figure out why Terrans are complaining this much about an 80 second 100/100 upgrade. You can accomplish the same map control with reapers. I still don't understand how so many people are confused about about how big of a change this was. READ: Show nested quote +On April 13 2010 04:11 BlasiuS wrote:
pre-patch 8 Terran won most of their games against protoss with builds that revolved around marauders starting out with slow:
1. 1 rax marauder FE: this worked because marauders w/slow prevented early harass on your FE. Now that marauders don't start with slow, zealots are WAY stronger v terran in the early game; this build dies to aggressive zealot harass, which will run terran over before shells are finished.
2. fast (proxy) reaper -> marauder: this build worked because reapers forced stalkers, which were then countered by marauders, which could be made immediately after 2-3 reapers, and since they started with slow, they beat stalkers very easily. Now that marauders don't start with slow, this build is unable to put any follow-up pressure after the reapers. Before shells are researched, Stalkers > Marauders in small numbers.
3. fast (proxy) marauder: this relied on marauders hitting protoss before immortals came out. It worked because marauders w/slow > stalkers or zealots that early in the game. Now that marauders don't start with slow, this build doesn't work for the same reason 1 rax marauder FE doesn't work: you get run over by zealots or zealot/sentry before your shells can benefit you.
None of these 3 builds work anymore, because marauders don't start with slow. You don't seem to recognize that it was a BIG change. Terran was hardest hit on build #1, now terran is struggling to find a build that they can FE with. From what I've seen, MoRRoW has the best FE build, with 1 rax marines -> FE -> MASS shield marines + at least 4 bunkers, and pray toss doesn't attack you before your shield upgrade is done. Even then, zealot/sentry just rapes, force field prevents SCVs from repairing bunkers, and guardian shield basically hard-counters marines. terran can no longer do their standard TvP builds after patch 8. They had to re-learn the entire matchup from scratch. THAT'S why terrans are complaining. I know It's not valid complaining, but if you want to know why there are so many complaints, the reasons are clearly spelled out for you.
I understood why, I just figured people would have tried something other than spamming marauder in one form or another.
Also, unit for unit (1 for 1) a Marauder still beats a stalker.
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I completely agree with JP it all comes down to timing and there's a huge timing window protoss can abuse that really screws over the terran.
I'm working on a lot of builds at the moment and I'll let you know what I think later in the day.
Also watching those games posted above.
edit: point of reference, defensing may be better than trying to push out early (think of sc1) you can also stim in bunkers now.
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On April 15 2010 03:00 JTPROG wrote:
Trust me, every terran is doing what they can, but I feel like there's really not much we can do in this MU at this point, except for maybe abuse reapers early game or banshees if we can survive to them. We are changing the way we play, we have tried, it's just not working, It's not effective.
I may sound like an ass but dude...TRY HARDER. Protoss were "changing the way we play" and been trying our asses off for 8 fucking patches. Terran have been doing absolutely nothing except massing T1 for every single patch until patch 8, when low econ T1 abuse doesn't work anymore.
Yea, marine build time increase hurt Terran a lot and I agree that it should probably be changed. But honestly, to all the people who want to nerf Protoss again? Bullshit.
You can't nerf Immortals because they are the lifeline that lets Protoss kill Marauders and Roaches (to a lesser extent). You can't nerf sentry's FF because without it at that specific timing, Protoss can't fend off speedling all-ins. However, I do agree that guardian shield could probably be nerfed to lower duration or higher energy cost because the timing for it is not as crucial.
But honestly, when I watch replays of Terran complaining "omg I try everything, it's not work, nerf protoss maor pl0x" it's pretty much the same freaking Marauder early game mass. Okay, you build one Thor or ghost kinda early, but really...it's the practically the same thing. In the rare occasion when I do see someone do something different, like reaper rushes, which don't necessarily have to do anything other than delay the protoss push , Terran does perfectly fine.
/rant
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On April 15 2010 02:59 {88}iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2010 02:51 Seacow wrote:On April 15 2010 02:37 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
~
Yes, I'm sure Morrow and Demuslim just aren't trying hard enough, clearly the beta is 100% balanced at the moment and no further changes need to be made before release. Yep that is exactly what I was saying. The game is perfect and muslim/morrow don't work hard enough. ORRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR I was saying that they can work as hard as they are and NOT bitch like nearly all the protoss players did when the game was obviously broken? I STILL see morrow / muslim in the finals of nearly every tourney on EU so despite the impossible odds they've seem to have found a way. But yeah, lets nerf immortals, storm, sentry and collossus in the next patch so we can see tvt/zvz/tvz every game.
LOL ? do i need to bump all the nerf marauder, terran is overpowered 60+ page topics ?
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On April 15 2010 03:12 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2010 03:00 JTPROG wrote:
Trust me, every terran is doing what they can, but I feel like there's really not much we can do in this MU at this point, except for maybe abuse reapers early game or banshees if we can survive to them. We are changing the way we play, we have tried, it's just not working, It's not effective.
I may sound like an ass but dude...TRY HARDER. Protoss were "changing the way we play" and been trying our asses off for 8 fucking patches. Terran have been doing absolutely nothing except massing T1 for every single patch until patch 8, when low econ T1 abuse doesn't work anymore. Yea, marine build time increase hurt Terran a lot and I agree that it should probably be changed. But honestly, to all the people who want to nerf Protoss again? Bullshit. You can't nerf Immortals because they are the lifeline that lets Protoss kill Marauders and Roaches (to a lesser extent). You can't nerf sentry's FF because without it at that specific timing, Protoss can't fend off speedling all-ins. However, I do agree that guardian shield could probably be nerfed to lower duration or higher energy cost because the timing for it is not as crucial. But honestly, when I watch replays of Terran complaining "omg I try everything, it's not work, nerf protoss maor pl0x" it's pretty much the same freaking Marauder early game mass. Okay, you build one Thor or ghost kinda early, but really...it's the practically the same thing. In the rare occasion when I do see someone do something different, like reaper rushes, which don't necessarily have to do anything other than delay the protoss push , Terran does perfectly fine. /rant
How exactly have your builds differend in TvP other than multiple war gate power attacks or 1 gate into robo?
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On April 15 2010 03:12 Mente wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2010 03:12 Ryuu314 wrote:On April 15 2010 03:00 JTPROG wrote:
Trust me, every terran is doing what they can, but I feel like there's really not much we can do in this MU at this point, except for maybe abuse reapers early game or banshees if we can survive to them. We are changing the way we play, we have tried, it's just not working, It's not effective.
I may sound like an ass but dude...TRY HARDER. Protoss were "changing the way we play" and been trying our asses off for 8 fucking patches. Terran have been doing absolutely nothing except massing T1 for every single patch until patch 8, when low econ T1 abuse doesn't work anymore. Yea, marine build time increase hurt Terran a lot and I agree that it should probably be changed. But honestly, to all the people who want to nerf Protoss again? Bullshit. You can't nerf Immortals because they are the lifeline that lets Protoss kill Marauders and Roaches (to a lesser extent). You can't nerf sentry's FF because without it at that specific timing, Protoss can't fend off speedling all-ins. However, I do agree that guardian shield could probably be nerfed to lower duration or higher energy cost because the timing for it is not as crucial. But honestly, when I watch replays of Terran complaining "omg I try everything, it's not work, nerf protoss maor pl0x" it's pretty much the same freaking Marauder early game mass. Okay, you build one Thor or ghost kinda early, but really...it's the practically the same thing. In the rare occasion when I do see someone do something different, like reaper rushes, which don't necessarily have to do anything other than delay the protoss push , Terran does perfectly fine. /rant How exactly have your builds differend in TvP other than multiple war gate power attacks or 1 gate into robo?
We picked different timings. Or pre-storm nerf, a lot of Protoss users went storm instead of robo. We finally figured out that sentry FF saves our ass from Marauder slow (FF utilization hasn't been widespread since day 1 buddy). We stopped doing 3 warpgate rushes. We stopped trying to use stalkers like dragoons. I could go on.
What has Terran done? Spam the marauder button.
@2SCV1Cup: Yes, that's true but I can also point out the 60+ page threads of nerf storm and nerf warpgate pl0x pages, as well.
EDIT: A lot of Terran have been saying that the reason why they've been spamming the marauder button is because it's the most cost-effective unit they have in their arsenal. However, that's no reason to do that. Protoss has been doing one thing that Terran absolutely have not been doing. It's called army and tech diversity. And army and tech diversity doesn't mean 5% starport tech, 5% factory tech, 5% ghost tech, and 85% marauders. Just because something is "the most cost efficient" doesn't mean you have to go crazy and mass it. If Toss tried doing that, they'd get raped every game.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On April 15 2010 03:12 2SCV1cup wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2010 02:59 {88}iNcontroL wrote:On April 15 2010 02:51 Seacow wrote:On April 15 2010 02:37 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
~
Yes, I'm sure Morrow and Demuslim just aren't trying hard enough, clearly the beta is 100% balanced at the moment and no further changes need to be made before release. Yep that is exactly what I was saying. The game is perfect and muslim/morrow don't work hard enough. ORRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR I was saying that they can work as hard as they are and NOT bitch like nearly all the protoss players did when the game was obviously broken? I STILL see morrow / muslim in the finals of nearly every tourney on EU so despite the impossible odds they've seem to have found a way. But yeah, lets nerf immortals, storm, sentry and collossus in the next patch so we can see tvt/zvz/tvz every game. LOL ? do i need to bump all the nerf marauder, terran is overpowered 60+ page topics ?
Go for it. It'd totally prove me wrong.
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Couple of things. I watched all 3 replays, and my main issue with them is that I never really see much use of guardian shield. Guardian shield is the main reason marine builds aren't particularly effective. Particularly on steppes of war I feel like use of guardian shield and better micro would have been better for azz. That said, I also feel like your fourth rax is extraneous. You could probably pull this FE off with similar success with 3 raxes constantly producing, and instead of making a tech lab and a reactor, go straight to banshees.
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On April 15 2010 03:16 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2010 03:12 Mente wrote:On April 15 2010 03:12 Ryuu314 wrote:On April 15 2010 03:00 JTPROG wrote:
Trust me, every terran is doing what they can, but I feel like there's really not much we can do in this MU at this point, except for maybe abuse reapers early game or banshees if we can survive to them. We are changing the way we play, we have tried, it's just not working, It's not effective.
I may sound like an ass but dude...TRY HARDER. Protoss were "changing the way we play" and been trying our asses off for 8 fucking patches. Terran have been doing absolutely nothing except massing T1 for every single patch until patch 8, when low econ T1 abuse doesn't work anymore. Yea, marine build time increase hurt Terran a lot and I agree that it should probably be changed. But honestly, to all the people who want to nerf Protoss again? Bullshit. You can't nerf Immortals because they are the lifeline that lets Protoss kill Marauders and Roaches (to a lesser extent). You can't nerf sentry's FF because without it at that specific timing, Protoss can't fend off speedling all-ins. However, I do agree that guardian shield could probably be nerfed to lower duration or higher energy cost because the timing for it is not as crucial. But honestly, when I watch replays of Terran complaining "omg I try everything, it's not work, nerf protoss maor pl0x" it's pretty much the same freaking Marauder early game mass. Okay, you build one Thor or ghost kinda early, but really...it's the practically the same thing. In the rare occasion when I do see someone do something different, like reaper rushes, which don't necessarily have to do anything other than delay the protoss push , Terran does perfectly fine. /rant How exactly have your builds differend in TvP other than multiple war gate power attacks or 1 gate into robo? We picked different timings. Or pre-storm nerf, a lot of Protoss users went storm instead of robo. We finally figured out that sentry FF saves our ass from Marauder slow (FF utilization hasn't been here since day 1 buddy). We stopped doing 3 warpgate rushes. We stopped trying to use stalkers like dragoons. I could go on. What has Terran done? Spam the marauder button. @2SCV1Cup: Yes, that's true but I can also point out the 60+ page of nerf storm and nerf warpgate pl0x pages, as well.
No good protoss went storm over robo. FF has been around since day 1 that's not really a build change that's micro. You went from 3 warpgate to 4 not really a build change. That's more of a choice than a build change as most protoss still go for stalker first.
Terran has tried 1 rax FE 4 rax fast pressure 1 rax all in, 1 rax fact fe, banshee rush, ghost rush, 2 rax 1 fact, 2 port banshee rush, fast reaper rush.
Those are actually builds none are really indicative of nerfs or the well we realized siege sucks so we stopped using siege tanks. See the difference?
"What has Brotoss done? Spammed the immortal button." cwutididthar?
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On April 15 2010 03:23 shinosai wrote:
Couple of things. I watched all 3 replays, and my main issue with them is that I never really see much use of guardian shield. Guardian shield is the main reason marine builds aren't particularly effective. Particularly on steppes of war I feel like use of guardian shield and better micro would have been better for azz. That said, I also feel like your fourth rax is extraneous. You could probably pull this FE off with similar success with 3 raxes constantly producing, and instead of making a tech lab and a reactor, go straight to banshees.
Perhaps, but regardless I don't think Guardian shield could have saved Azz from all those marines. Mind you, this isn't me playing, it's KawaiiRice. Do you feel the build works against the Immortal push though?
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Yea, despite what Demuslim and Marrow (and a number of mid-level plat players) say, it looks like Terran are still winning their fair share of tournaments and high level matches post-patch 8 (Cauthonlucks' 4-0 of Orb, Loner's 2-0 of Beckham, TvP 2-0 in the USA vs Canada showmatches, etc.). It feels like there's a lot of exaggeration in this thread by terran players.
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On April 15 2010 03:25 Prozen wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2010 03:23 shinosai wrote:
Couple of things. I watched all 3 replays, and my main issue with them is that I never really see much use of guardian shield. Guardian shield is the main reason marine builds aren't particularly effective. Particularly on steppes of war I feel like use of guardian shield and better micro would have been better for azz. That said, I also feel like your fourth rax is extraneous. You could probably pull this FE off with similar success with 3 raxes constantly producing, and instead of making a tech lab and a reactor, go straight to banshees. Perhaps, but regardless I don't think Guardian shield could have saved Azz from all those marines. Mind you, this isn't me playing, it's KawaiiRice. Do you feel the build works against the Immortal push though?
I think it definitely stops the immortal push, but you are playing a risky game. You are pretty much relying on the protoss trying to attack you. If they back up and tech to storm or colossi, or expand themselves, you need something more than marines. I think the only problem with your build is that you stay with marines for too long. A quicker transition to air would make this strategy solid, but also weaker vs the push.
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On April 15 2010 03:25 Hold-Lurker wrote:
Yea, despite what Demuslim and Marrow (and a number of mid-level plat players) say, it looks like Terran are still winning their fair share of tournaments and high level matches post-patch 8 (Cauthonlucks' 4-0 of Orb, Loner's 2-0 of Beckham, TvP 2-0 in the USA vs Canada showmatches, etc.). It feels like there's a lot of exaggeration in this thread by terran players.
There are exceptions to every rule? (i.e., brotoss player a makes bad decisions in series y but makes standard decisions in series z justifying his winz)
I'm not touting for a nerf bat I'm touting for a think tank.
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On April 15 2010 03:25 Hold-Lurker wrote:
Yea, despite what Demuslim and Marrow (and a number of mid-level plat players) say, it looks like Terran are still winning their fair share of tournaments and high level matches post-patch 8 (Cauthonlucks' 4-0 of Orb, Loner's 2-0 of Beckham, TvP 2-0 in the USA vs Canada showmatches, etc.). It feels like there's a lot of exaggeration in this thread by terran players.
I guess it took some time after the patch before protoss players realized what they could get away with.
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On April 15 2010 03:23 Mente wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2010 03:16 Ryuu314 wrote:On April 15 2010 03:12 Mente wrote:On April 15 2010 03:12 Ryuu314 wrote:On April 15 2010 03:00 JTPROG wrote:
Trust me, every terran is doing what they can, but I feel like there's really not much we can do in this MU at this point, except for maybe abuse reapers early game or banshees if we can survive to them. We are changing the way we play, we have tried, it's just not working, It's not effective.
I may sound like an ass but dude...TRY HARDER. Protoss were "changing the way we play" and been trying our asses off for 8 fucking patches. Terran have been doing absolutely nothing except massing T1 for every single patch until patch 8, when low econ T1 abuse doesn't work anymore. Yea, marine build time increase hurt Terran a lot and I agree that it should probably be changed. But honestly, to all the people who want to nerf Protoss again? Bullshit. You can't nerf Immortals because they are the lifeline that lets Protoss kill Marauders and Roaches (to a lesser extent). You can't nerf sentry's FF because without it at that specific timing, Protoss can't fend off speedling all-ins. However, I do agree that guardian shield could probably be nerfed to lower duration or higher energy cost because the timing for it is not as crucial. But honestly, when I watch replays of Terran complaining "omg I try everything, it's not work, nerf protoss maor pl0x" it's pretty much the same freaking Marauder early game mass. Okay, you build one Thor or ghost kinda early, but really...it's the practically the same thing. In the rare occasion when I do see someone do something different, like reaper rushes, which don't necessarily have to do anything other than delay the protoss push , Terran does perfectly fine. /rant How exactly have your builds differend in TvP other than multiple war gate power attacks or 1 gate into robo? We picked different timings. Or pre-storm nerf, a lot of Protoss users went storm instead of robo. We finally figured out that sentry FF saves our ass from Marauder slow (FF utilization hasn't been here since day 1 buddy). We stopped doing 3 warpgate rushes. We stopped trying to use stalkers like dragoons. I could go on. What has Terran done? Spam the marauder button. @2SCV1Cup: Yes, that's true but I can also point out the 60+ page of nerf storm and nerf warpgate pl0x pages, as well. No good protoss went storm over robo. FF has been around since day 1 that's not really a build change that's micro. You went from 3 warpgate to 4 not really a build change. That's more of a choice than a build change as most protoss still go for stalker first. Terran has tried 1 rax FE 4 rax fast pressure 1 rax all in, 1 rax fact fe, banshee rush, ghost rush, 2 rax 1 fact, 2 port banshee rush, fast reaper rush. Those are actually builds none are really indicative of nerfs or the well we realized siege sucks so we stopped using siege tanks. See the difference? "What has Brotoss done? Spammed the immortal button." cwutididthar?
Are you kidding me? A LOT of protoss went for storm over robo. Sure we still got robo for obs, but our tech of choice was storm. And it was pretty darn effective. Go search up the old threads discussing storm v. robo tech. It was effective because HTs countered bio really well, while not being completely ass-raped by air.
FF is a micro change. You're absolutely right. Maybe Terrans need to do some micro changes? hurhur.
Most protoss still go for stalker first? Really? If they do it's only to fend off the possible reaper rush. There's really no reason to go stalkers first because Marauders absolutely rape stalkers even without slow.
Right. Protoss spams the immortal button when we only have 1-3 immortals for the initial push. That's spamming all right!
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On April 15 2010 03:29 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2010 03:23 Mente wrote:On April 15 2010 03:16 Ryuu314 wrote:On April 15 2010 03:12 Mente wrote:On April 15 2010 03:12 Ryuu314 wrote:On April 15 2010 03:00 JTPROG wrote:
Trust me, every terran is doing what they can, but I feel like there's really not much we can do in this MU at this point, except for maybe abuse reapers early game or banshees if we can survive to them. We are changing the way we play, we have tried, it's just not working, It's not effective.
I may sound like an ass but dude...TRY HARDER. Protoss were "changing the way we play" and been trying our asses off for 8 fucking patches. Terran have been doing absolutely nothing except massing T1 for every single patch until patch 8, when low econ T1 abuse doesn't work anymore. Yea, marine build time increase hurt Terran a lot and I agree that it should probably be changed. But honestly, to all the people who want to nerf Protoss again? Bullshit. You can't nerf Immortals because they are the lifeline that lets Protoss kill Marauders and Roaches (to a lesser extent). You can't nerf sentry's FF because without it at that specific timing, Protoss can't fend off speedling all-ins. However, I do agree that guardian shield could probably be nerfed to lower duration or higher energy cost because the timing for it is not as crucial. But honestly, when I watch replays of Terran complaining "omg I try everything, it's not work, nerf protoss maor pl0x" it's pretty much the same freaking Marauder early game mass. Okay, you build one Thor or ghost kinda early, but really...it's the practically the same thing. In the rare occasion when I do see someone do something different, like reaper rushes, which don't necessarily have to do anything other than delay the protoss push , Terran does perfectly fine. /rant How exactly have your builds differend in TvP other than multiple war gate power attacks or 1 gate into robo? We picked different timings. Or pre-storm nerf, a lot of Protoss users went storm instead of robo. We finally figured out that sentry FF saves our ass from Marauder slow (FF utilization hasn't been here since day 1 buddy). We stopped doing 3 warpgate rushes. We stopped trying to use stalkers like dragoons. I could go on. What has Terran done? Spam the marauder button. @2SCV1Cup: Yes, that's true but I can also point out the 60+ page of nerf storm and nerf warpgate pl0x pages, as well. No good protoss went storm over robo. FF has been around since day 1 that's not really a build change that's micro. You went from 3 warpgate to 4 not really a build change. That's more of a choice than a build change as most protoss still go for stalker first. Terran has tried 1 rax FE 4 rax fast pressure 1 rax all in, 1 rax fact fe, banshee rush, ghost rush, 2 rax 1 fact, 2 port banshee rush, fast reaper rush. Those are actually builds none are really indicative of nerfs or the well we realized siege sucks so we stopped using siege tanks. See the difference? "What has Brotoss done? Spammed the immortal button." cwutididthar? Are you kidding me? A LOT of protoss went for storm over robo. Sure we still got robo for obs, but our tech of choice was storm. And it was pretty darn effective. Go search up the old threads discussing storm v. robo tech. It was effective because HTs countered bio really well, while not being completely ass-raped by air. FF is a micro change. You're absolutely right. Maybe Terrans need to do some micro changes? hurhur. Most protoss still go for stalker first? If they do it's only to fend off the possible reaper rush. There's really no reason to go stalkers first because Marauders absolutely rape stalkers even without slow. Right. Protoss spams the immortal button when we only have 1-3 immortals for the initial push. That's spamming all right!
Well give me an example of a micro mechanic (i.e., emp for example) that I can employ with my units and I'd be more than willing to try it out. Possibly something that prevents the protoss from microing... like lockdown! We have that right?
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Looks like back to tank + ghost combos for me :D .
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On April 15 2010 03:28 Mente wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2010 03:25 Hold-Lurker wrote:
Yea, despite what Demuslim and Marrow (and a number of mid-level plat players) say, it looks like Terran are still winning their fair share of tournaments and high level matches post-patch 8 (Cauthonlucks' 4-0 of Orb, Loner's 2-0 of Beckham, TvP 2-0 in the USA vs Canada showmatches, etc.). It feels like there's a lot of exaggeration in this thread by terran players. There are exceptions to every rule? (i.e., brotoss player a makes bad decisions in series y but makes standard decisions in series z justifying his winz) I'm not touting for a nerf bat I'm touting for a think tank.
Or you could argue the reverse and that terran players in those games were skilled and made correct decisions, but other terran players have not. Either way, most of the responses in this thread and the other thread to people suggesting solid builds (e.g., Prozen) have been met with dismissal (i.e., "I don't see how this build would ever work against someone who builds a sentry").
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Yeah I still have a lot to try myself as well.
Edit: I dont' think I've shot down a single build other than my own that I've tested with mez(siege xpand).
I have more in mind and am more than willing to try some others.
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People, take a look at the replays I posted. It defends against the Immortal push, but I need to figure out what to transition to after successfully defending against the Immortals. Any suggestions? Please watch the replays first.
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The only way I'm surviving this matchup in Platinum league is by opening with speed reapers, dealing as much damage as I can (hopefully getting ~10 probe kills), and then expoing, and spending the whole game turtling while nuke harassing, while grabbing a third base. Eventually the protoss will get impatient and try to break my turtle. I then counter attack and deal as much damage as I can while taking a 4th. However, this matchup is very broken right now.
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On April 15 2010 03:31 Mente wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2010 03:29 Ryuu314 wrote:On April 15 2010 03:23 Mente wrote:On April 15 2010 03:16 Ryuu314 wrote:On April 15 2010 03:12 Mente wrote:On April 15 2010 03:12 Ryuu314 wrote:On April 15 2010 03:00 JTPROG wrote:
Trust me, every terran is doing what they can, but I feel like there's really not much we can do in this MU at this point, except for maybe abuse reapers early game or banshees if we can survive to them. We are changing the way we play, we have tried, it's just not working, It's not effective.
I may sound like an ass but dude...TRY HARDER. Protoss were "changing the way we play" and been trying our asses off for 8 fucking patches. Terran have been doing absolutely nothing except massing T1 for every single patch until patch 8, when low econ T1 abuse doesn't work anymore. Yea, marine build time increase hurt Terran a lot and I agree that it should probably be changed. But honestly, to all the people who want to nerf Protoss again? Bullshit. You can't nerf Immortals because they are the lifeline that lets Protoss kill Marauders and Roaches (to a lesser extent). You can't nerf sentry's FF because without it at that specific timing, Protoss can't fend off speedling all-ins. However, I do agree that guardian shield could probably be nerfed to lower duration or higher energy cost because the timing for it is not as crucial. But honestly, when I watch replays of Terran complaining "omg I try everything, it's not work, nerf protoss maor pl0x" it's pretty much the same freaking Marauder early game mass. Okay, you build one Thor or ghost kinda early, but really...it's the practically the same thing. In the rare occasion when I do see someone do something different, like reaper rushes, which don't necessarily have to do anything other than delay the protoss push , Terran does perfectly fine. /rant How exactly have your builds differend in TvP other than multiple war gate power attacks or 1 gate into robo? We picked different timings. Or pre-storm nerf, a lot of Protoss users went storm instead of robo. We finally figured out that sentry FF saves our ass from Marauder slow (FF utilization hasn't been here since day 1 buddy). We stopped doing 3 warpgate rushes. We stopped trying to use stalkers like dragoons. I could go on. What has Terran done? Spam the marauder button. @2SCV1Cup: Yes, that's true but I can also point out the 60+ page of nerf storm and nerf warpgate pl0x pages, as well. No good protoss went storm over robo. FF has been around since day 1 that's not really a build change that's micro. You went from 3 warpgate to 4 not really a build change. That's more of a choice than a build change as most protoss still go for stalker first. Terran has tried 1 rax FE 4 rax fast pressure 1 rax all in, 1 rax fact fe, banshee rush, ghost rush, 2 rax 1 fact, 2 port banshee rush, fast reaper rush. Those are actually builds none are really indicative of nerfs or the well we realized siege sucks so we stopped using siege tanks. See the difference? "What has Brotoss done? Spammed the immortal button." cwutididthar? Are you kidding me? A LOT of protoss went for storm over robo. Sure we still got robo for obs, but our tech of choice was storm. And it was pretty darn effective. Go search up the old threads discussing storm v. robo tech. It was effective because HTs countered bio really well, while not being completely ass-raped by air. FF is a micro change. You're absolutely right. Maybe Terrans need to do some micro changes? hurhur. Most protoss still go for stalker first? If they do it's only to fend off the possible reaper rush. There's really no reason to go stalkers first because Marauders absolutely rape stalkers even without slow. Right. Protoss spams the immortal button when we only have 1-3 immortals for the initial push. That's spamming all right! Well give me an example of a micro mechanic (i.e., emp for example) that I can employ with my units and I'd be more than willing to try it out. Possibly something that prevents the protoss from microing... like lockdown! We have that right?
You already touched on one: EMP. I think many Terrans say that EMP rushing isn't that great because it hurts your macro too much. Alright, maybe Blizzard needs to tweak EMP timing, but EMP should really solve your Immortal and Sentry problem. I'm not saying that everything should remain untouched and that Blizzard shouldnt' intervene with balance changes. Not at all. Rather, I'm just saying that nerfing Protoss more isn't the right thing to do. Tweaking EMP timing or reducing Marine/Reactor build times would do more to solve the problem.
Unseiged tank micro v. immortals. Tanks have same movespeed as immortals (i just checked liquipedia), and unseiged tanks outrange and shoot faster than immortals. Obviously there's an issue of slowing down the Immortals so you can effectively micro. But wait...isn't there a Terran ability that does just that? Maybe marauders can be used as support instead of being the backbone. Maybe instead of waiting passively at your natural/choke for the Protoss to come Terran can move out to meet the Protoss in a more open field, thus decreasing the strength of individual FFs and giving you more room to *gasp* micro?
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On April 15 2010 02:39 HubertFelix wrote:
Stop this. Players in the beta have to test the bugs and the balance to make a good final product.
They have to report the bugs and the imbalance.
The real answer is "post pure whine posts on battle.net".
I'm talking about the people who think SC2 is going to fail in Korea, as well as all those spastics making judgements about the game as a whole product before it's even been released.
I don't have a problem addressing the imbalances, but hearing people try to make qualified comments about how much better BW is/how SC2 is gonna suck/Korea won't like SC2 need to take their crystal ball and shove it.
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On April 15 2010 03:34 Hold-Lurker wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2010 03:28 Mente wrote:On April 15 2010 03:25 Hold-Lurker wrote:
Yea, despite what Demuslim and Marrow (and a number of mid-level plat players) say, it looks like Terran are still winning their fair share of tournaments and high level matches post-patch 8 (Cauthonlucks' 4-0 of Orb, Loner's 2-0 of Beckham, TvP 2-0 in the USA vs Canada showmatches, etc.). It feels like there's a lot of exaggeration in this thread by terran players. There are exceptions to every rule? (i.e., brotoss player a makes bad decisions in series y but makes standard decisions in series z justifying his winz) I'm not touting for a nerf bat I'm touting for a think tank. Or you could argue the reverse and that terran players in those games were skilled and made correct decisions, but other terran players have not. Either way, most of the responses in this thread and the other thread to people suggesting solid builds (e.g., Prozen) have been met with dismissal (i.e., "I don't see how this build would ever work against someone who builds a sentry").
Oh shut the fuck up. I was the person who said that, then watched the replays, and none of the replays even involved guardian shield (except, surprisingly, the one the terran player LOST). So, yea, I dismissed it, but I also gave it credit for stopping the immortal push. So stop your persecution of terran players as if we refuse to see any sort of reason.
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On April 15 2010 03:38 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2010 03:31 Mente wrote:On April 15 2010 03:29 Ryuu314 wrote:On April 15 2010 03:23 Mente wrote:On April 15 2010 03:16 Ryuu314 wrote:On April 15 2010 03:12 Mente wrote:On April 15 2010 03:12 Ryuu314 wrote:On April 15 2010 03:00 JTPROG wrote:
Trust me, every terran is doing what they can, but I feel like there's really not much we can do in this MU at this point, except for maybe abuse reapers early game or banshees if we can survive to them. We are changing the way we play, we have tried, it's just not working, It's not effective.
I may sound like an ass but dude...TRY HARDER. Protoss were "changing the way we play" and been trying our asses off for 8 fucking patches. Terran have been doing absolutely nothing except massing T1 for every single patch until patch 8, when low econ T1 abuse doesn't work anymore. Yea, marine build time increase hurt Terran a lot and I agree that it should probably be changed. But honestly, to all the people who want to nerf Protoss again? Bullshit. You can't nerf Immortals because they are the lifeline that lets Protoss kill Marauders and Roaches (to a lesser extent). You can't nerf sentry's FF because without it at that specific timing, Protoss can't fend off speedling all-ins. However, I do agree that guardian shield could probably be nerfed to lower duration or higher energy cost because the timing for it is not as crucial. But honestly, when I watch replays of Terran complaining "omg I try everything, it's not work, nerf protoss maor pl0x" it's pretty much the same freaking Marauder early game mass. Okay, you build one Thor or ghost kinda early, but really...it's the practically the same thing. In the rare occasion when I do see someone do something different, like reaper rushes, which don't necessarily have to do anything other than delay the protoss push , Terran does perfectly fine. /rant How exactly have your builds differend in TvP other than multiple war gate power attacks or 1 gate into robo? We picked different timings. Or pre-storm nerf, a lot of Protoss users went storm instead of robo. We finally figured out that sentry FF saves our ass from Marauder slow (FF utilization hasn't been here since day 1 buddy). We stopped doing 3 warpgate rushes. We stopped trying to use stalkers like dragoons. I could go on. What has Terran done? Spam the marauder button. @2SCV1Cup: Yes, that's true but I can also point out the 60+ page of nerf storm and nerf warpgate pl0x pages, as well. No good protoss went storm over robo. FF has been around since day 1 that's not really a build change that's micro. You went from 3 warpgate to 4 not really a build change. That's more of a choice than a build change as most protoss still go for stalker first. Terran has tried 1 rax FE 4 rax fast pressure 1 rax all in, 1 rax fact fe, banshee rush, ghost rush, 2 rax 1 fact, 2 port banshee rush, fast reaper rush. Those are actually builds none are really indicative of nerfs or the well we realized siege sucks so we stopped using siege tanks. See the difference? "What has Brotoss done? Spammed the immortal button." cwutididthar? Are you kidding me? A LOT of protoss went for storm over robo. Sure we still got robo for obs, but our tech of choice was storm. And it was pretty darn effective. Go search up the old threads discussing storm v. robo tech. It was effective because HTs countered bio really well, while not being completely ass-raped by air. FF is a micro change. You're absolutely right. Maybe Terrans need to do some micro changes? hurhur. Most protoss still go for stalker first? If they do it's only to fend off the possible reaper rush. There's really no reason to go stalkers first because Marauders absolutely rape stalkers even without slow. Right. Protoss spams the immortal button when we only have 1-3 immortals for the initial push. That's spamming all right! Well give me an example of a micro mechanic (i.e., emp for example) that I can employ with my units and I'd be more than willing to try it out. Possibly something that prevents the protoss from microing... like lockdown! We have that right? You already touched on one: EMP. I think many Terrans say that EMP rushing isn't that great because it hurts your macro too much. Alright, maybe Blizzard needs to tweak EMP timing, but EMP should really solve your Immortal and Sentry problem. I'm not saying that everything should remain untouched and that Blizzard shouldnt' intervene with balance changes. Not at all. Rather, I'm just saying that nerfing Protoss more isn't the right thing to do. Tweaking EMP timing or reducing Marine/Reactor build times would do more to solve the problem. Unseiged tank micro v. immortals. Tanks have same movespeed as immortals (i just checked liquipedia), and unseiged tanks outrange and shoot faster than immortals. Obviously there's an issue of slowing down the Immortals so you can effectively micro. But wait...isn't there a Terran ability that does just that? Maybe marauders can be used as support instead of being the backbone. Maybe instead of waiting passively at your natural/choke for the Protoss to come Terran can move out to meet the Protoss in a more open field, thus decreasing the strength of individual FFs and giving you more room to *gasp* micro?
From what i've seen in streams and tournies, most players, even the better ones, tend to just mass and auto-move in giant globs into eachother in a single control group. God forbid most players micro.
The ones who micro will (and do) win battles.
Does this solve the TvP problem (if there is one)? Not necessarily... but it gives youa fighting chance and pretty much makes this MU just like ZvT in BW.
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On April 15 2010 03:38 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2010 03:31 Mente wrote:On April 15 2010 03:29 Ryuu314 wrote:On April 15 2010 03:23 Mente wrote:On April 15 2010 03:16 Ryuu314 wrote:On April 15 2010 03:12 Mente wrote:On April 15 2010 03:12 Ryuu314 wrote:On April 15 2010 03:00 JTPROG wrote:
Trust me, every terran is doing what they can, but I feel like there's really not much we can do in this MU at this point, except for maybe abuse reapers early game or banshees if we can survive to them. We are changing the way we play, we have tried, it's just not working, It's not effective.
I may sound like an ass but dude...TRY HARDER. Protoss were "changing the way we play" and been trying our asses off for 8 fucking patches. Terran have been doing absolutely nothing except massing T1 for every single patch until patch 8, when low econ T1 abuse doesn't work anymore. Yea, marine build time increase hurt Terran a lot and I agree that it should probably be changed. But honestly, to all the people who want to nerf Protoss again? Bullshit. You can't nerf Immortals because they are the lifeline that lets Protoss kill Marauders and Roaches (to a lesser extent). You can't nerf sentry's FF because without it at that specific timing, Protoss can't fend off speedling all-ins. However, I do agree that guardian shield could probably be nerfed to lower duration or higher energy cost because the timing for it is not as crucial. But honestly, when I watch replays of Terran complaining "omg I try everything, it's not work, nerf protoss maor pl0x" it's pretty much the same freaking Marauder early game mass. Okay, you build one Thor or ghost kinda early, but really...it's the practically the same thing. In the rare occasion when I do see someone do something different, like reaper rushes, which don't necessarily have to do anything other than delay the protoss push , Terran does perfectly fine. /rant How exactly have your builds differend in TvP other than multiple war gate power attacks or 1 gate into robo? We picked different timings. Or pre-storm nerf, a lot of Protoss users went storm instead of robo. We finally figured out that sentry FF saves our ass from Marauder slow (FF utilization hasn't been here since day 1 buddy). We stopped doing 3 warpgate rushes. We stopped trying to use stalkers like dragoons. I could go on. What has Terran done? Spam the marauder button. @2SCV1Cup: Yes, that's true but I can also point out the 60+ page of nerf storm and nerf warpgate pl0x pages, as well. No good protoss went storm over robo. FF has been around since day 1 that's not really a build change that's micro. You went from 3 warpgate to 4 not really a build change. That's more of a choice than a build change as most protoss still go for stalker first. Terran has tried 1 rax FE 4 rax fast pressure 1 rax all in, 1 rax fact fe, banshee rush, ghost rush, 2 rax 1 fact, 2 port banshee rush, fast reaper rush. Those are actually builds none are really indicative of nerfs or the well we realized siege sucks so we stopped using siege tanks. See the difference? "What has Brotoss done? Spammed the immortal button." cwutididthar? Are you kidding me? A LOT of protoss went for storm over robo. Sure we still got robo for obs, but our tech of choice was storm. And it was pretty darn effective. Go search up the old threads discussing storm v. robo tech. It was effective because HTs countered bio really well, while not being completely ass-raped by air. FF is a micro change. You're absolutely right. Maybe Terrans need to do some micro changes? hurhur. Most protoss still go for stalker first? If they do it's only to fend off the possible reaper rush. There's really no reason to go stalkers first because Marauders absolutely rape stalkers even without slow. Right. Protoss spams the immortal button when we only have 1-3 immortals for the initial push. That's spamming all right! Well give me an example of a micro mechanic (i.e., emp for example) that I can employ with my units and I'd be more than willing to try it out. Possibly something that prevents the protoss from microing... like lockdown! We have that right? You already touched on one: EMP. I think many Terrans say that EMP rushing isn't that great because it hurts your macro too much. Alright, maybe Blizzard needs to tweak EMP timing, but EMP should really solve your Immortal and Sentry problem. I'm not saying that everything should remain untouched and that Blizzard shouldnt' intervene with balance changes. Not at all. Rather, I'm just saying that nerfing Protoss more isn't the right thing to do. Tweaking EMP timing or reducing Marine/Reactor build times would do more to solve the problem. Unseiged tank micro v. immortals. Tanks have same movespeed as immortals (i just checked liquipedia), and unseiged tanks outrange and shoot faster than immortals. Obviously there's an issue of slowing down the Immortals so you can effectively micro. But wait...isn't there a Terran ability that does just that? Maybe marauders can be used as support instead of being the backbone. Maybe instead of waiting passively at your natural/choke for the Protoss to come Terran can move out to meet the Protoss in a more open field, thus decreasing the strength of individual FFs and giving you more room to *gasp* micro?
I've touched on this in a previous thread or in this one. I forget, this micro is extremely hard to achieve and with the gas constraints I've had to use the blocking units as scvs~. Also this micro gets shut down by shuttle harass play and it shuts down both tank and marauder. This is mainly the build i've been having issues with defending with a FE of some sort (referencing back to reaver harass it was more than possible to FE and defend this).
You also seem to be thinking I'm asking for a nerf to brotoss. Maybe slow stalker walk speed down (holy crap they're almost as fast as hellions) but more over I'm asking for some input or ideas to try. I'm looking to play maybe 20+ games doing 1 build over and over again. Not many people have that kind of patience to begin with.
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On April 15 2010 02:37 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
@JTPROG: me of all people?
You fucking forget: I played protoss THIS entire time. I played protoss when we were the only race declining with a win % while terran had a near 15% win boost. I WORKED at it and did everything I could. I made 1 bitch post where I said "blizzard has a week" but after that even I realized I was an idiot and found a way.
I sit on a vent with multiple terran players who complain on a daily basis about how impossible this is. I come into this channel and hear a group of terran players me-owing like cats about how they need help from papa blizzard or else they will cry more tears. LITERALLY the only change they made in this last patch was making the grenade upgradable instead of FREE and everyone thinks the matchup is broken? That CAN'T be right.
Fucking OP is talking about how you HAVE to go marauders which you can't do cost effectively now because of 100 minerals/100 gas? That isn't right guys... it is the difference between 1 marauder. Do you guys actually play this game? I haven't seen a battle where had he had that 1 more marauder the entire game would have swishedddddddddd in his favor each time. And don't tell me the upgrade time smashes the meta game either. If you can't 1 rax marauder pressure a P WHILE EXPANDING anymore and you think it is the games fault then guess what? You need to change the way you play.
And to answer the deflecting people: YES I've played terran since the patch. I coach several platinum protoss players and I TvP them almost daily: AND WIN. Reaper harrass is still as strong as ever. Mixing tanks late game STILL as strong as ever.. no protoss has 10+ immortals late game and if they do you're an IDIOT for not scouting it and going bio + laughing at their easily countered tech choice. Mass templar Louder? Serious? This isn't new.. SCBW had mass templar only they were BETTER. I cannot fathom every terran getting their wish inthis thread...the would be in shambles.
And you guys can bitch about my "generalizing" when I regard most of you as "terran players." That is fine but uh, how many complaining in here don't play terran? 1? 2? Probably a few.. but I'd venture a guess this is a thread where mostly terran players vent their complaints about the mu spanning from FF to templars to immortals to collossus late game to blah blah blah.. THEY AREN'T REMOVING PROTOSS GUYS. SORRY.
Hear, hear! For Aiur!
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Honestly, reading this thread has given me a great deal of ideas to use in the TvP matchup and I will be seeing how they work in >1300 plat tonight.
But seriously? Terran aren't trying hard enough? We're not inventive? I'm sorry I don't play 70% of my games using a fast tech to robo and warp gate rush, when the other 30% is just DT's. And speaking of the Reaper rush. You're fast teching, there is a downside to that. With P its just you just build your army pop on guardian shields and 1a2a3a. There's really nothing I need to focus fire.
In reality, the point of this post isn't really to call protoss players lazy, or even uninventive. The point is that the argument that a certain race is not "trying" hard enough is baseless take away from strategy discussion.
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On April 15 2010 03:41 shinosai wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2010 03:34 Hold-Lurker wrote:On April 15 2010 03:28 Mente wrote:On April 15 2010 03:25 Hold-Lurker wrote:
Yea, despite what Demuslim and Marrow (and a number of mid-level plat players) say, it looks like Terran are still winning their fair share of tournaments and high level matches post-patch 8 (Cauthonlucks' 4-0 of Orb, Loner's 2-0 of Beckham, TvP 2-0 in the USA vs Canada showmatches, etc.). It feels like there's a lot of exaggeration in this thread by terran players. There are exceptions to every rule? (i.e., brotoss player a makes bad decisions in series y but makes standard decisions in series z justifying his winz) I'm not touting for a nerf bat I'm touting for a think tank. Or you could argue the reverse and that terran players in those games were skilled and made correct decisions, but other terran players have not. Either way, most of the responses in this thread and the other thread to people suggesting solid builds (e.g., Prozen) have been met with dismissal (i.e., "I don't see how this build would ever work against someone who builds a sentry"). Oh shut the fuck up. I was the person who said that, then watched the replays, and none of the replays even involved guardian shield (except, surprisingly, the one the terran player LOST). So, yea, I dismissed it, but I also gave it credit for stopping the immortal push. So stop your persecution of terran players as if we refuse to see any sort of reason.
Haha, without resorting to cursing, I think you were the only one that even responded regarding the build so I think my point still stands. I'm pretty sure Prozen posted this build in the other "Immortal Problem" thread as well with no responses, but whatever - I'm going to review the games I mentioned again with T beating P and try to be more constructive.
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On April 15 2010 03:34 Prozen wrote:
People, take a look at the replays I posted. It defends against the Immortal push, but I need to figure out what to transition to after successfully defending against the Immortals. Any suggestions? Please watch the replays first.
Well if you scout something different than immortals you need to adapt earlier. I would transition to air units as well, as has been already suggested. Anti-air is the protoss weakpoint so just hit them on that spot. That way you get bio + air which is the way i usually play vs toss and it works well for me.
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As a Protoss player I struggle a lot vs Banshees. They throw me off my game plan and allows Terran to expand.
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the logic about "its just 100/100 more" Um not really, its 100/100 more and 80 seconds tied up not researching stim.
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On April 15 2010 02:50 Prozen wrote:and Granted the game on Metalopolis, Azz went 5 Warpgate push allin, but it does defend against Immortals quite nicely.
This is almost the exact build I have been doing in tvp - basically copy MorroW's FE. It definitely feels very strong until protoss gets colossus or storm. I haven't played enough games with this build to make any conclusions, but in the event that I defend the protoss attack I usually win.
Assuming that this does work well even with the best protoss doing his 4~5gate 1base all in, the question now becomes how protoss will adapt to this build. Perhaps the metagame has to change for protoss now if this busting-terran-early-with-immortal+sentry+stalker doesn't work anymore?
I wonder how this would play out on Blistering Sands...
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InControl's posts should be stickied in all the major SC2 forums.
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On April 15 2010 04:26 Orpheus wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2010 02:50 Prozen wrote:and Granted the game on Metalopolis, Azz went 5 Warpgate push allin, but it does defend against Immortals quite nicely. This is almost the exact build I have been doing in tvp - basically copy MorroW's FE. It definitely feels very strong until protoss gets colossus or storm. I haven't played enough games with this build to make any conclusions, but in the event that I defend the protoss attack I usually win. Assuming that this does work well even with the best protoss doing his 4~5gate 1base all in, the question now becomes how protoss will adapt to this build. Perhaps the metagame has to change for protoss now if this busting-terran-early-with-immortal+sentry+stalker doesn't work anymore? I wonder how this would play out on Blistering Sands...
The Protoss will probably go Collosi. Proper followup to this build imo is EMP to handle Storms + Immortals and Vikings to deal with the Collosi.
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Hmm, i feel this thread has gone completely off topic.
I aimed this thread directly at Terran players - to see whether there was something i'm missing, or whether they are in the same situation as I. I didn't want alot of protoss players, that obviously feel quite offended that their new found high win ratio vsT is not due to terrans being somewhat weak against protoss, but more down to their abilities being higher than that of the terran(lol ).
Gonna continue to think through ideas in this matchup as right now i find the mu pretty dull and repetitive. I do believe immortals/warpgates/sentries are the problem, that's not to say the other units in the game are perfectly fine, but i believe these few are what really separate protoss from the other 2 races right now.
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I needed about 30min to get myself a account on 17173.com to download a loudervsbeckhacm.rar file from the forums, but those replays are from another patch..
Anyone found those games?
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i just watched 1 of those games of loner vs beckham on LT, and beckham didn't play very good.
By that i mean he was playing with 1 gate, 1 robotics bay for a long time while teching to collosus, then got more gateways and added zealots and not much else.
He then had 3 collosus attacking a barracks in the fight and not the army, but still won the fight pretty much (had to retreat due to a viking) - and had 4 collosus queued on a robotics bay.
His strategy is outdated, and his macro wasn't very good - i don't think it's a good showcase of TvP being fine ;S.
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PFrozen:
http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?4tcmaj4jjue
Check out this replay to see how I alter your build. Note this is an ffa so it's not a serious game. I'm just showing you how I modified your build to incorporate banshees. At roughly 7 minutes I have 3 full bunkers of marines with only 3 rax. in your replay, kawaii has 3 bunkers full of marines and 4 marines extra at 7 minutes
At 9 minutes I have begun banshee production and I have 21 marines. In kawaiis replay he has 24 marines and a marauder at 9 minutes, granted he lost a few marines.
As you can see, losing the 4th rax does not slow your marine production that much, and allows much faster tech.
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On April 15 2010 05:03 shinosai wrote:PFrozen: http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?4tcmaj4jjueCheck out this replay to see how I alter your build. Note this is an ffa so it's not a serious game. I'm just showing you how I modified your build to incorporate banshees. At roughly 7 minutes I have 3 full bunkers of marines with only 3 rax. in your replay, kawaii has 3 bunkers full of marines and 4 marines extra at 7 minutes At 9 minutes I have begun banshee production and I have 21 marines. In kawaiis replay he has 24 marines and a marauder at 9 minutes, granted he lost a few marines. As you can see, losing the 4th rax does not slow your marine production that much, and allows much faster tech.
Hmm, interesting. Honestly, whenever I used this build, I just went 3 Rax as opposed to 4 Rax. Thanks for your input.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On April 15 2010 04:47 DeMusliM wrote:Hmm, i feel this thread has gone completely off topic. I aimed this thread directly at Terran players - to see whether there was something i'm missing, or whether they are in the same situation as I. I didn't want alot of protoss players, that obviously feel quite offended that their new found high win ratio vsT is not due to terrans being somewhat weak against protoss, but more down to their abilities being higher than that of the terran(lol ). Gonna continue to think through ideas in this matchup as right now i find the mu pretty dull and repetitive. I do believe immortals/warpgates/sentries are the problem, that's not to say the other units in the game are perfectly fine, but i believe these few are what really separate protoss from the other 2 races right now.
Oh yeah? You wanted a bunch of terrans to agree with you and you don't like how the race you single out defends itself? Ain't that a bitch.
Would you like me to assume all those wins you had pre patch 8 was because you were playing the broken race that nobody could beat? No? Then don't be a jackass to all p's by suggesting the same.
Sorry dude. I'm kinda amazed you expected 0 opposition to the "problems" you are having.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
In fact only 1 of 5 protoss advanced in that tourney to round 2 and it was nazgul who is one of the best players atm.
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hello!
i think tvp is broken atm, and i think blizzard will nerf the immortal soon. besides: im playing on some smurf accounts atm (ye im a dumbass :/) with the intention just to practice specific Matchups.
Last days/Weeks i nearly only played TvP, a LOT of TvP and my impression is, besides that p "allins" are defintly too strong atm vs terran, this:
1] Some Koreans make 4 Marauder Drops (with no exp etc), u can kick off pylons this way but if he just counterattack u are DEAD. So dropping in tvp atm, especially with 3-4 marauders is suicide against a P who counterattacks. So dont do drops.
2] Mech is crap, u know it, i know it, its FACT, i tried 300 different mech bos, its just bad atm
3] I tried the Thor + Marine Bo very often, sometimes i could crush the enemy, but only if he didnt switch to mass zeals/psi storm in the midgame. I really think thor + marine is crap tbh, sometimes it can be cute but i dont see a big advantage in this bo if u compare with standard marine/rauder
4] Marauder Fe is not really reliable anymore, good 4gate+robo allin p destroy u, =(.
Good Option atm:
I have some great success with following build order: 1 Rax to fast Starport (only 1) then start building a banshee, meanwhile u build 2 more rax and pump marauder out of 3 rax. With ure first Banshee you go harrass (if u know he doesnt have a phoenix), if u can kill more than 3-4 probes u have a huge edge.. just build on some more banshees until u have 3-4, then add 1 Medivac and u can leave your base. If he attacks u then focus the immortals with marauder/Banshees, they melt very fast. With this style (3rax rauder + banshee) i killed very good protoss, u should at least try it. OFC if he build some phoenix u have to add marines.
BTW: with this build order u are safe against many things: DT Rush (u can have the raven then very fast) + Colossi Drop (u can have the viking very fast) etc. And ofc build 2-3 rines before u start building marauder only, for sniping obs :D
hope my impressions helped a bit, and im looking forward to the upcoming immortalnerf :p (or at least changes who increase the non-existing strategic depth of this matchup)
PS: I think CauthonLuck (very good american terran obv) does my 1 starport build order in his first game against Orb in the KotH.
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On April 15 2010 05:23 {88}iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2010 04:47 DeMusliM wrote:Hmm, i feel this thread has gone completely off topic. I aimed this thread directly at Terran players - to see whether there was something i'm missing, or whether they are in the same situation as I. I didn't want alot of protoss players, that obviously feel quite offended that their new found high win ratio vsT is not due to terrans being somewhat weak against protoss, but more down to their abilities being higher than that of the terran(lol ). Gonna continue to think through ideas in this matchup as right now i find the mu pretty dull and repetitive. I do believe immortals/warpgates/sentries are the problem, that's not to say the other units in the game are perfectly fine, but i believe these few are what really separate protoss from the other 2 races right now. Oh yeah? You wanted a bunch of terrans to agree with you and you don't like how the race you single out defends itself? Ain't that a bitch. Would you like me to assume all those wins you had pre patch 8 was because you were playing the broken race that nobody could beat? No? Then don't be a jackass to all p's by suggesting the same. Sorry dude. I'm kinda amazed you expected 0 opposition to the "problems" you are having.
plus he wants terra players in this forum to help him... yeah I'm sure they are just all holding back their strategies and dont play the big tournaments....
Its like Lebron asking the waterboy of the clippers how to better slam dunk..
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On April 15 2010 05:00 DeMusliM wrote:
i just watched 1 of those games of loner vs beckham on LT, and beckham didn't play very good.
By that i mean he was playing with 1 gate, 1 robotics bay for a long time while teching to collosus, then got more gateways and added zealots and not much else.
He then had 3 collosus attacking a barracks in the fight and not the army, but still won the fight pretty much (had to retreat due to a viking) - and had 4 collosus queued on a robotics bay.
His strategy is outdated, and his macro wasn't very good - i don't think it's a good showcase of TvP being fine ;S.
Game 2 is an example of reaper harass into fast expo with 4rax marines, very similar to the build posted earlier here. It crushes the immortal push fairly well, although there was no guardian shield used (toss gas being used for stalker to fight reaper and on immortals which are ineffective vs. marines). I didn't see the toss stuck on high minerals or queuing unnecessarily here at all, then the terran proceeds to crush the toss army due to 2 base vs 1 base for a long time (with bio+viking vs gateway+collo).
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Yeh, let's point at the protoss' that aren't doing well prepatch, weren't doing well at the start, and aren't doing well after - good way to prove that balance has anything to do with it *sarcasm off*.
As for the tournaments recently, i don't think i need to poke at how many are being won by protoss.
Pretty much every tournament i've seen recently has been somewhat dominated by protoss, coincidence? Doubt it.
Even if we just single out tournaments such as zotac - the fact the first 4 or so were won by zerg/terran and no protoss makes me think hey, why aren't protoss winning - semi finals were filled with terrans/zergs and the protoss players whined - even though it was the same players hitting the finals each week (dimaga) which doesn't suggest it's the race, but more down to his ability. Now within the last 2 zotacs i think we saw 3 protoss in the semis and a protoss v protoss finale, and a PvT that was sweeped 3-0. Sorry to say, but recent results speak for themselves (and it was different protoss players each time meaning, it wasn't the same 1 player dominating, but the race itself).
We can all point at some result "OH LOL IMBA" - but if you're gonna point at X Y and Z when they are notorious for being weaker players of their race and try and get sympathy from that, please. I'm talking about the top vs the top - and that's what it's about i'm afraid.
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On April 15 2010 02:59 {88}iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2010 02:51 Seacow wrote:On April 15 2010 02:37 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
~
Yes, I'm sure Morrow and Demuslim just aren't trying hard enough, clearly the beta is 100% balanced at the moment and no further changes need to be made before release. Yep that is exactly what I was saying. The game is perfect and muslim/morrow don't work hard enough. ORRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR I was saying that they can work as hard as they are and NOT bitch like nearly all the protoss players did when the game was obviously broken? I STILL see morrow / muslim in the finals of nearly every tourney on EU so despite the impossible odds they've seem to have found a way. But yeah, lets nerf immortals, storm, sentry and collossus in the next patch so we can see tvt/zvz/tvz every game.
You are a ridiculous hypocrite. You even threatened to quit the game unless Blizzard patched it. SCV/Marine rush was broken. Woop ti fucking doo. Easy fix applied, and the game returned to its natural balance of protoss having an unbeatable ground army. Stop being such a staunch defender of 'your race'. It's a game, dude, not your ethnic pride at stake.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
[too abrasive, sorry]
I addressed that post IN THIS THREAD and said I was an idiot who "shut up and went to work." So calling me a hyporcrite for something I called myself on is bs.
And the thing I was bitching about had tremendous numbers to support it. Comparing that to "immortals are hard to kill" or "this matchup is tough" from a guy who wins everything anyways is completely different.
[removed]
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On April 15 2010 05:49 DeMusliM wrote:
Yeh, let's point at the protoss' that aren't doing well prepatch, weren't doing well at the start, and aren't doing well after - good way to prove that balance has anything to do with it *sarcasm off*.
As for the tournaments recently, i don't think i need to poke at how many are being won by protoss.
Pretty much every tournament i've seen recently has been somewhat dominated by protoss, coincidence? Doubt it.
Even if we just single out tournaments such as zotac - the fact the first 4 or so were won by zerg/terran and no protoss makes me think hey, why aren't protoss winning - semi finals were filled with terrans/zergs and the protoss players whined - even though it was the same players hitting the finals each week (dimaga) which doesn't suggest it's the race, but more down to his ability. Now within the last 2 zotacs i think we saw 3 protoss in the semis and a protoss v protoss finale, and a PvT that was sweeped 3-0. Sorry to say, but recent results speak for themselves (and it was different protoss players each time meaning, it wasn't the same 1 player dominating, but the race itself).
We can all point at some result "OH LOL IMBA" - but if you're gonna point at X Y and Z when they are notorious for being weaker players of their race and try and get sympathy from that, please. I'm talking about the top vs the top - and that's what it's about i'm afraid.
???
Haypro? The aforementioned tourney where 4 of 5 p's were eliminated? [fixed, my bad sorry hehe]
I could go on.. but in fact: You are just wrong. Terrans STILL win more than protoss but we go from winning 0 tourneys to like 4 and you go from winning ALL tourneys to just half now and something is wrong with the game?
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On April 15 2010 05:23 {88}iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2010 04:47 DeMusliM wrote:Hmm, i feel this thread has gone completely off topic. I aimed this thread directly at Terran players - to see whether there was something i'm missing, or whether they are in the same situation as I. I didn't want alot of protoss players, that obviously feel quite offended that their new found high win ratio vsT is not due to terrans being somewhat weak against protoss, but more down to their abilities being higher than that of the terran(lol ). Gonna continue to think through ideas in this matchup as right now i find the mu pretty dull and repetitive. I do believe immortals/warpgates/sentries are the problem, that's not to say the other units in the game are perfectly fine, but i believe these few are what really separate protoss from the other 2 races right now. Oh yeah? You wanted a bunch of terrans to agree with you and you don't like how the race you single out defends itself? Ain't that a bitch. Would you like me to assume all those wins you had pre patch 8 was because you were playing the broken race that nobody could beat? No? Then don't be a jackass to all p's by suggesting the same. Sorry dude. I'm kinda amazed you expected 0 opposition to the "problems" you are having.
You seem to expect zero opposition to your statements in response, and you're far too eager to put people in their place than you are to participate in a constructive discussion in this situation. Instead of making generalizations and trying to make people look stupid, it would be cool if you could contribute your insight as a Protoss player in more detail than "reaper harass is good and mass tanks late game are good". I personally would appreciate it in fact, in general, from Protoss in this thread, to respond constructively.
Re previous comment about templars:
Storm did more damage but didn't have smart cast. It's a lot easier to spam storms. And now that temps can get an upgrade where they spawn with enough energy to cast storm right away, they're an even bigger problem to for T. I also don't have a super fast general purpose low cost unit that can snipe them like I would with vultures in SC1.
To interpret my statements about storm as a complaint of imbalance would be a mistake. I just pointed out that I find it difficult to deal with, and that it's not as simple as making ghosts.
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On April 15 2010 05:53 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
shut the fuck up.
I addressed that post IN THIS THREAD and said I was an idiot who "shut up and went to work." So calling me a hyporcrite for something I called myself on is bs.
And the thing I was bitching about had tremendous numbers to support it. Comparing that to "immortals are hard to kill" or "this matchup is tough" from a guy who wins everything anyways is completely different.
Crawl back in the hole you came from please.
You're defective. Fix your shit.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
you won't last a week on here if you don't read a thread and attack someone for something that they addressed and then ignore their response and continue to just troll.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On April 15 2010 05:58 Louder wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2010 05:23 {88}iNcontroL wrote:On April 15 2010 04:47 DeMusliM wrote:Hmm, i feel this thread has gone completely off topic. I aimed this thread directly at Terran players - to see whether there was something i'm missing, or whether they are in the same situation as I. I didn't want alot of protoss players, that obviously feel quite offended that their new found high win ratio vsT is not due to terrans being somewhat weak against protoss, but more down to their abilities being higher than that of the terran(lol ). Gonna continue to think through ideas in this matchup as right now i find the mu pretty dull and repetitive. I do believe immortals/warpgates/sentries are the problem, that's not to say the other units in the game are perfectly fine, but i believe these few are what really separate protoss from the other 2 races right now. Oh yeah? You wanted a bunch of terrans to agree with you and you don't like how the race you single out defends itself? Ain't that a bitch. Would you like me to assume all those wins you had pre patch 8 was because you were playing the broken race that nobody could beat? No? Then don't be a jackass to all p's by suggesting the same. Sorry dude. I'm kinda amazed you expected 0 opposition to the "problems" you are having. You seem to expect zero opposition to your statements in response, and you're far too eager to put people in their place than you are to participate in a constructive discussion in this situation. Instead of making generalizations and trying to make people look stupid, it would be cool if you could contribute your insight as a Protoss player in more detail than "reaper harass is good and mass tanks late game are good". I personally would appreciate it in fact, in general, from Protoss in this thread, to respond constructively. Re previous comment about templars: Storm did more damage but didn't have smart cast. It's a lot easier to spam storms. And now that temps can get an upgrade where they spawn with enough energy to cast storm right away, they're an even bigger problem to for T. I also don't have a super fast general purpose low cost unit that can snipe them like I would with vultures in SC1. To interpret my statements about storm as a complaint of imbalance would be a mistake. I just pointed out that I find it difficult to deal with, and that it's not as simple as making ghosts.
Something being difficult to deal with is a good thing. That is what separates the bad from the good. Something the bw players want and the nubs that are new to this game don't. You can suggest all you want that you aren't "complaining" but in fact just randomly mentioning something you want to say is "difficult" but in this thread, in this context it is fair to assume you are suggesting it is OP or broken or w/e. That being said I have 0 respect for the argument when you simply state "it is difficult and I can't just make ghosts to solve it" WELL GOOD I don't want the game to be that simple and I WANT the game to be difficult.
I had no idea blizz was going to have to dredge through people complaining that this game is too difficult given how concerned we all were pre beta about it being too easy.
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On April 15 2010 05:23 {88}iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2010 04:47 DeMusliM wrote:Hmm, i feel this thread has gone completely off topic. I aimed this thread directly at Terran players - to see whether there was something i'm missing, or whether they are in the same situation as I. I didn't want alot of protoss players, that obviously feel quite offended that their new found high win ratio vsT is not due to terrans being somewhat weak against protoss, but more down to their abilities being higher than that of the terran(lol ). Gonna continue to think through ideas in this matchup as right now i find the mu pretty dull and repetitive. I do believe immortals/warpgates/sentries are the problem, that's not to say the other units in the game are perfectly fine, but i believe these few are what really separate protoss from the other 2 races right now. Oh yeah? You wanted a bunch of terrans to agree with you and you don't like how the race you single out defends itself? Ain't that a bitch. Would you like me to assume all those wins you had pre patch 8 was because you were playing the broken race that nobody could beat? No? Then don't be a jackass to all p's by suggesting the same. Sorry dude. I'm kinda amazed you expected 0 opposition to the "problems" you are having.
iNcontroL, excuse me for replying to your highness.
Although a lot of people here seem to be merely complaining about balance, by the fact remains that there are a lot of decent players (some aren't even Terran) in this thread sharing the sentiment (DeMuslim, Strelok, Origine, Antimage, MorroW, Gretorp, Louder, just naming a few that I happen to recognize), suggesting that there is at least an issue at hand, whether it be tvp balance or the Terran metagame.
I understand it is infuriating to see many people complaining about protoss being imbalanced then proceed to suggest nerfing everything protoss has to oblivion, but at least I don't think it was from the better players who are striving for real solutions. Your anger is quite justified, but it isn't necessary to bring the point across. Would you shed some light upon us inferior players as to what might be some possible ways to safely expand then transition to a more or less even mid-game? I really find it hard to believe that protoss players on the whole are better players than their Terran counterparts.
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On April 15 2010 06:04 {88}iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2010 05:58 Louder wrote:On April 15 2010 05:23 {88}iNcontroL wrote:On April 15 2010 04:47 DeMusliM wrote:Hmm, i feel this thread has gone completely off topic. I aimed this thread directly at Terran players - to see whether there was something i'm missing, or whether they are in the same situation as I. I didn't want alot of protoss players, that obviously feel quite offended that their new found high win ratio vsT is not due to terrans being somewhat weak against protoss, but more down to their abilities being higher than that of the terran(lol ). Gonna continue to think through ideas in this matchup as right now i find the mu pretty dull and repetitive. I do believe immortals/warpgates/sentries are the problem, that's not to say the other units in the game are perfectly fine, but i believe these few are what really separate protoss from the other 2 races right now. Oh yeah? You wanted a bunch of terrans to agree with you and you don't like how the race you single out defends itself? Ain't that a bitch. Would you like me to assume all those wins you had pre patch 8 was because you were playing the broken race that nobody could beat? No? Then don't be a jackass to all p's by suggesting the same. Sorry dude. I'm kinda amazed you expected 0 opposition to the "problems" you are having. You seem to expect zero opposition to your statements in response, and you're far too eager to put people in their place than you are to participate in a constructive discussion in this situation. Instead of making generalizations and trying to make people look stupid, it would be cool if you could contribute your insight as a Protoss player in more detail than "reaper harass is good and mass tanks late game are good". I personally would appreciate it in fact, in general, from Protoss in this thread, to respond constructively. Re previous comment about templars: Storm did more damage but didn't have smart cast. It's a lot easier to spam storms. And now that temps can get an upgrade where they spawn with enough energy to cast storm right away, they're an even bigger problem to for T. I also don't have a super fast general purpose low cost unit that can snipe them like I would with vultures in SC1. To interpret my statements about storm as a complaint of imbalance would be a mistake. I just pointed out that I find it difficult to deal with, and that it's not as simple as making ghosts. Something being difficult to deal with is a good thing. That is what separates the bad from the good. Something the bw players want and the nubs that are new to this game don't. You can suggest all you want that you aren't "complaining" but in fact just randomly mentioning something you want to say is "difficult" but in this thread, in this context it is fair to assume you are suggesting it is OP or broken or w/e. That being said I have 0 respect for the argument when you simply state "it is difficult and I can't just make ghosts to solve it" WELL GOOD I don't want the game to be that simple and I WANT the game to be difficult. I had no idea blizz was going to have to dredge through people complaining that this game is too difficult given how concerned we all were pre beta about it being too easy.
I'm not complaining.
If you were too sick to go to work and your boss reamed you out for "making excuses", would that be accurate, or a mischaracterization of what's going on?
If I say I find something difficult to deal with, that's not a complaint. That's a statement. An observation. I may think it is indeed overpowered. I think there are some things in this game that are, in some contexts, broken, and it's not only Protoss. In t he context of the OP, this was not a "game imbalance" thread, it was an attempt to have a discussion about a specific problem in TvP. My remarks were made with that context in mind.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
That is my point though. You say it is a problem NOW but earlier you said it was difficult. I look at that as two separate things: Difficult is good. A problem is bad. I want storm to be complex and difficult to handle. I think the way storm is now is good, does 80 damage max has a fairly small area of effect and emp makes them USELESS. Not to mention the high cost of storm/stormers/the tech in general so the high risk high reward concept is in effect.
Sorry if I came off too abrasive but this thread is convaluted with people just outright complaining and saying everything the P does is OP. Meanwhile Z's/T's win more tourneys and guess what? P just had their most meaningful patch so YES we are going to do better than T's/Z's for a bit because nothing changed for us save for our units are more effective and T/Z has to figure out a different less OP play style.
The same happened earlier: WG's were WAY OP. P went from winning everything to struggling immediately after. People complained that the nerf was too much.. guess what? It wasn't. They didn't change it a bit and we are fine now.
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incontrol, you make good points and I agree, but I don't see any solid footing to the situation we're in now. There's just too much vulnerability at one point that can be easily exploited.
Considering I've played terran in BW and I've played terran in SC2 I like to think I have a firm grasp on the race that I've been mulling around with for the past over 9000 years.
Eventually I'll think of something that will work consistently against this kind of play but right now unless you're offering yourself up for a series of games you're not being productive at all.
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On April 15 2010 06:17 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
That is my point though. You say it is a problem NOW but earlier you said it was difficult. I look at that as two separate things: Difficult is good. A problem is bad. I want storm to be complex and difficult to handle. I think the way storm is now is good, does 80 damage max has a fairly small area of effect and emp makes them USELESS. Not to mention the high cost of storm/stormers/the tech in general so the high risk high reward concept is in effect.
Sorry if I came off too abrasive but this thread is convaluted with people just outright complaining and saying everything the P does is OP. Meanwhile Z's/T's win more tourneys and guess what? P just had their most meaningful patch so YES we are going to do better than T's/Z's for a bit because nothing changed for us save for our units are more effective and T/Z has to figure out a different less OP play style.
The same happened earlier: WG's were WAY OP. P went from winning everything to struggling immediately after. People complained that the nerf was too much.. guess what? It wasn't. They didn't change it a bit and we are fine now.
I did not change the context or wording of my statements. I didn't restate anything as a "problem" in my previous post. If you're referring to a comment about things I think are imbalanced, please note I did not specify anything at all
I agree with your statements about warp gates. I also agree that there are lots of random people saying useless crap on this thread. But it's a waste of time to try and respond and put them in their place. The OP was good, and it merits thoughtful discussion, in my opinion.
In what context is it OK for a player to express his thoughts on a situation? Are we not supposed to say we feel, in our experience, that something is broken or imbalanced or too difficult, if we do indeed think that - and can back it up with our own replays, our own thoughtful arguments? Responding with observations about previous balance changes and statistics are off point and attempt to block useful discussion.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
You seem to be out of date with this thread Louder. He has responded with attacks and sarcasm just as much as anything I have. He has moved past just thoughtfully asking for help and suggested that all the P's victories lately are due to the patch.
I have no problem with constructive discussions. I have problems with patches of people getting together and complaining about how broken a game is WHILE they (the goodplayers) still do JUST fine. And in fact would do better had they spent less time talking on a forum about how difficult X unit is and more time figuring out the best way to deal with it.
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Perhaps you really don't see the problem. Either way, nobody has yet to come up with a failproof solution. Morrow's 1 rax FE is a very risky strategy and I don't believe it can be standard simply because if it becomes standard protoss will start opening with super aggressive things and will make 1 rax FE not viable, so we'd be back to square one. I'd love to see terran find a viable, safe build, but I don't see that happening until there are changes made.
Remember what Day9 says about standard strategies. A good strategy becomes standard because even if an opponent knows about it they can't do anything about it. Think siege expand in BW TvP. That's standard for a reason.
Until someone manages to find a standard strategy that is malleable and flexible, I will continue to say TvP is a broken matchup.
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I play toss, and have since SC1 was released. Right now, I really love the new mechanics they gave us, and I do think we are a bit imba vs. terran.
However, I think some of you guys need to get a grip here. Not one Blizzard RTS game was balanced before the release of the expansion, and even then it took arguably years from that point.
Now here we are, 2 months into the BETA for god's sake, and people are shouting doom. Just calm down, let the designers do their jobs. Maybe in 4 years it will be balanced. Just have to wait and see.
Meanwhile, do everything you can to find broken strats and counters to said broken strats. That is how a game evolves, after all. DeMuslim wasn't asking everyone to freak out on each other. How does that help the game get better?
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On April 15 2010 06:24 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
You seem to be out of date with this thread Louder. He has responded with attacks and sarcasm just as much as anything I have. He has moved past just thoughtfully asking for help and suggested that all the P's victories lately are due to the patch.
I have no problem with constructive discussions. I have problems with patches of people getting together and complaining about how broken a game is WHILE they (the goodplayers) still do JUST fine. And in fact would do better had they spent less time talking on a forum about how difficult X unit is and more time figuring out the best way to deal with it.
I haven't read all of his posts, but it looked like he got negative after you did. In any case, this thread is pretty much shot and we should all move on
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In all fairness, the attacks and sarcasms started at Page 3 and continued... if I was the OP I wouldn't be the happiest person in the world.
Anyway... I think everyone would love it if there's any Protoss who wants to share replays of them losing to a Terran past mid game (or Terran sharing how they beat good Protoss). It would be a great learning experience for all of us.
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On April 15 2010 06:35 Floophead_III wrote:
A good strategy becomes standard because even if an opponent knows about it they can't do anything about it.
I'd argue that's actually the definition of an overpowered strategy.
A standard strategy is one that is strong against multiple builds with few weaknesses.
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Hmm... I would say it's more of if an opponent knows about it they can't straight up beat it without taking a drastic risk. How about that?
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"Any suggestions are appreciated - anybody also dwelling on the same situation will make me feel less crap for losing roughly 9/11 games vs protoss in the last few days."
maybe posting those replays would help.
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It seems the problem stems from Guardian Shield reducing marines ability to fight protoss units early. You could probably hold those pushes on a fast expo with a boatload of marines, but with guardian shield, you're doing 3 damage to zealots and immortals.
Would making Shield an upgrade on the Cyber Core help? Its not like Toss needs it right away, as it usually doesn't get used until that first push by either side. Would it set Toss back just enough to allow terran the chance to fast expand with marines?
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On April 15 2010 06:54 PanzerDragoon wrote:
It seems the problem stems from Guardian Shield reducing marines ability to fight protoss units early. You could probably hold those pushes on a fast expo with a boatload of marines, but with guardian shield, you're doing 3 damage to zealots and immortals.
Would making Shield an upgrade on the Cyber Core help? Its not like Toss needs it right away, as it usually doesn't get used until that first push by either side. Would it set Toss back just enough to allow terran the chance to fast expand with marines?
YES
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Everyone needs to SHUT THE FUCK UP and get back to the topic at hand. What the fuck are we even arguing about now? Semantics? All you top tier players are better than this. You're what makes this forum good and this is the most shitty, disappointing thread I've read in a while.
Back to the topic:
I feel the issue lies mid game.
Early game, Terran has a few choices of viable opens, such as Marauder expand, rine/bunker expand, reaper harass expand, etc.
Once the game transitions into mid game, as a Terran, I always feel like I'm on the defensive. Protoss always seems to possess an army superior to mine. It feels superior in numbers (as a result of possible build times as DeMusliM mentioned) and in force (Immortals shutting down anything Mech, Guardian shield shutting down anything that counters immortals, and colossus cleaning up the rest).
With Protoss having so much map control mid-game, they're able to freely expand and gain an unstoppable economic advantage, and eventually steam-roll the Terran.
Ideas I've yet to try myself but perhaps you top tier players could give a try:
- Once your natural is secured, pump out 3-4 banshees and just use them to kill probes going to build expansions? Use them in the same way mines/vultures were used in mid game BW TvP; to delay the Protoss from taking his 3rd/4th
- Turtle into Battle Cruisers: Take your natural with bunkers/tanks and transition to BC's. With 4-5 BC's, you can start picking off the Protoss expansions one by one. The protoss ground army will be ineffective at defending. If they attempt to base-trade, your defenses should shut them down (marines + bunkers/siege tanks/ghosts/depo walls). This will force the Protoss to switch to Warp rays, which will then be countered nicely by your massive accumulations of marines (while pumping BC's, any extra minerals will be spend on marines).
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Incontrol can keep his damn immortal, its the sentries that need a nerf stick
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I think there are some pretty important questions that need to be answered here without the bickering and general ad-hominem. Out of the whole thread i've seen some common questions/issues come up and I don't think we've really hit on many serious answers or even debated answers yet:
1) What builds stop the immo push regularly, and how have the still-successful terrans dealt with it?
-Phrozen's replays (and some of our highly ranked terran contributors) suggest there is an answer, but is there some drawback to that answer? If so, what is it about this answer that perpetuates problems into the late game? I don't think the blanket statement "Toss t3> *" accurately describes the game right now. Toss air is still abyssmal compared to it's counterparts. Toss templar tech hasn't been a notable threat since the plethora of nerfs. What is it then that drives the steak into a terran's figurative heart after he fails to contain a toss from the get-go (as in last patch)?
2) What contiually drives the protoss to immortal pushing in almost every mu?
-As with the above, I think it has to do with the relative weakness of gateway units, stargate units, and complete necessity of obs (espcially when banshees are a potential threat) at a very early stage of the game. Would we see more diversity with an immo nerf? I highly doubt we'd see anything more than a continued protoss struggle to stay relavent with so few viable opens, but this is also something worthy of debate.
3) If Immortals are a red-herring in the mystery, what terran unit changes would stabalize the early game?
-Marines and Reactors were nerfed for good reason and I don't think anyone can ignore the threat of marine/scv all-in coming back. That being said, is there an adjustment to be made here without recalling prior patches imbalance?
4) Where to Zerg fit in all of this?
-We're very focused on PvT in this thread, and it's fine to single out a matchup we think has some issues to resolve, but we can't look at units, abilities, or upgrades in the isolated vacume of one MU. Taking a big hit to immortals and/or sentries is a significant harm to PvZ, which is already a tough matchup. I think it's a justifiable statement that Terran have a much easier time with zerg (and have a lot more units viable for use against zerg) than their Toss counterparts. So if we make it to the point of pinning down a unit or set of units that may be out of line, we can't ignore what this would do in T/PvZ.
FOR REFERENCE - Kawaii's TvP
Azz v Kawaii 3
Azz v Kawaii 2
Azz v Kawaii 1
For Irony - Demuslim as Toss (PvT) (sorry, had to be posted)
Demuslim PvT
In my own humble opinion, as a mid-level plat player who went random for most of beta, I do not think the matchup is borked, but i'm open to the idea that testing can indeed prove me wrong. I think we need more of the top players here to share replays, play practice matches with one another, and start a serious diologue. I think a week of serious cooperation would yeild a lot of useful information, potential strategies, and get rid of some of the animosity here.
We shouldn't loose sight of the fact that this is a beta, and we're in it to test. I'm not sure how many top players are already eyeing cash prizes and being draconian about guarding any creative and successful strategies they might have, but that seems about as useful here as saying "all X-race players are just lazy people." So let's get the diologue open, let's get more replays into this thread, and let's have an intelligent conversation to drown out the ignorance and belligerence.
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On April 15 2010 07:03 FREEloss_ca wrote:
Everyone needs to SHUT THE FUCK UP and get back to the topic at hand. What the fuck are we even arguing about now? Semantics? All you top tier players are better than this. You're what makes this forum good and this is the most shitty, disappointing thread I've read in a while.
Back to the topic:
I feel the issue lies mid game.
Early game, Terran has a few choices of viable opens, such as Marauder expand, rine/bunker expand, reaper harass expand, etc.
Once the game transitions into mid game, as a Terran, I always feel like I'm on the defensive. Protoss always seems to possess an army superior to mine. It feels superior in numbers (as a result of possible build times as DeMusliM mentioned) and in force (Immortals/Sentries shutting down anything Mech, and colossus cleaning up the rest).
With Protoss having so much map control mid-game, they're able to freely expand and gain an unstoppable economy advantage, and eventually steam-roll the Terran.
Where is Terran's early game? The build that punishes a techer? Seriously what can terran do to really even threaten a protoss BEFORE robo? ( and I am not talking 1 reaper running around his base)
The problem is every single Terran build has to do with a fast expansion. fux that I want to prevent him from going robo so easily by pressuring him early and often. maybe make him build a few zealots else he will die
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On April 15 2010 07:03 FREEloss_ca wrote:
Everyone needs to SHUT THE FUCK UP and get back to the topic at hand. What the fuck are we even arguing about now? Semantics? All you top tier players are better than this. You're what makes this forum good and this is the most shitty, disappointing thread I've read in a while.
Back to the topic:
I feel the issue lies mid game.
Early game, Terran has a few choices of viable opens, such as Marauder expand, rine/bunker expand, reaper harass expand, etc.
Once the game transitions into mid game, as a Terran, I always feel like I'm on the defensive. Protoss always seems to possess an army superior to mine. It feels superior in numbers (as a result of possible build times as DeMusliM mentioned) and in force (Immortals shutting down anything Mech, Guardian shield shutting down anything that counters immortals, and colossus cleaning up the rest).
With Protoss having so much map control mid-game, they're able to freely expand and gain an unstoppable economic advantage, and eventually steam-roll the Terran.
Ideas I've yet to try myself but perhaps you top tier players could give a try:
- Once your natural is secured, pump out 3-4 banshees and just use them to kill probes going to build expansions? Use them in the same way mines/vultures were used in mid game BW TvP; to delay the Protoss from taking his 3rd/4th
- Turtle into Battle Cruisers: Take your natural with bunkers/tanks and transition to BC's. With 4-5 BC's, you can start picking off the Protoss expansions one by one. The protoss ground army will be ineffective at defending. If they attempt to base-trade, your defenses should shut them down (marines + bunkers/siege tanks/ghosts/depo walls). This will force the Protoss to switch to Warp rays, which will then be countered nicely by your massive accumulations of marines (while pumping BC's, any extra minerals will be spend on marines).
Why not thors? If you start massing them early on for them to build up energy, they should really have no problem dealing with immortals. the 250 mm cannon does not activate hardened shields and pretty effectively kill immortals. In addition, during the midgame, getting ghosts with EMPs shouldnt' be much of a problem. In addition, Thors murder practically any Protoss gateway unit in 1 hit.
Also, banshees are ridiculous. I don't really see why they're not used more for map control. Even without cloak they have the highest AtG dps (second only to battlecruisers and carriers). protoss has absolutely horrible AA. Banshees should be able to be used really well for harassment and map control. they can also be rushed for early game to hold off the immortal rush. one banshee can effectively shut down the early immortal push because it's unlikely that the protoss will mass stalkers to counter. even if they do bring stalkers with the push, marauders rape stalkers easily.
Also, I really don't understand why it's so important for Terran to have to FE when Protoss never FEs...
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On April 15 2010 07:08 Tiamat wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2010 07:03 FREEloss_ca wrote:
Everyone needs to SHUT THE FUCK UP and get back to the topic at hand. What the fuck are we even arguing about now? Semantics? All you top tier players are better than this. You're what makes this forum good and this is the most shitty, disappointing thread I've read in a while.
Back to the topic:
I feel the issue lies mid game.
Early game, Terran has a few choices of viable opens, such as Marauder expand, rine/bunker expand, reaper harass expand, etc.
Once the game transitions into mid game, as a Terran, I always feel like I'm on the defensive. Protoss always seems to possess an army superior to mine. It feels superior in numbers (as a result of possible build times as DeMusliM mentioned) and in force (Immortals/Sentries shutting down anything Mech, and colossus cleaning up the rest).
With Protoss having so much map control mid-game, they're able to freely expand and gain an unstoppable economy advantage, and eventually steam-roll the Terran. Where is Terran's early game? The build that punishes a techer? Seriously what can terran do to really even threaten a protoss BEFORE robo? ( and I am not talking 1 reaper running around his base) The problem is every single Terran build has to do with a fast expansion. fux that I want to prevent him from going robo so easily by pressuring him early and often. maybe make him build a few zealots else he will die
That's a good point. If Terran chooses to FE, then Protoss, by all means can tech straight to Robo. But then perhaps Terran should possess a viable opening other than FE, that forces the Protoss to not tech to robo, and instead get zeals/stalkers/sentries/extra gates/etc?
On April 15 2010 07:14 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2010 07:03 FREEloss_ca wrote:
Everyone needs to SHUT THE FUCK UP and get back to the topic at hand. What the fuck are we even arguing about now? Semantics? All you top tier players are better than this. You're what makes this forum good and this is the most shitty, disappointing thread I've read in a while.
Back to the topic:
I feel the issue lies mid game.
Early game, Terran has a few choices of viable opens, such as Marauder expand, rine/bunker expand, reaper harass expand, etc.
Once the game transitions into mid game, as a Terran, I always feel like I'm on the defensive. Protoss always seems to possess an army superior to mine. It feels superior in numbers (as a result of possible build times as DeMusliM mentioned) and in force (Immortals shutting down anything Mech, Guardian shield shutting down anything that counters immortals, and colossus cleaning up the rest).
With Protoss having so much map control mid-game, they're able to freely expand and gain an unstoppable economic advantage, and eventually steam-roll the Terran.
Ideas I've yet to try myself but perhaps you top tier players could give a try:
- Once your natural is secured, pump out 3-4 banshees and just use them to kill probes going to build expansions? Use them in the same way mines/vultures were used in mid game BW TvP; to delay the Protoss from taking his 3rd/4th
- Turtle into Battle Cruisers: Take your natural with bunkers/tanks and transition to BC's. With 4-5 BC's, you can start picking off the Protoss expansions one by one. The protoss ground army will be ineffective at defending. If they attempt to base-trade, your defenses should shut them down (marines + bunkers/siege tanks/ghosts/depo walls). This will force the Protoss to switch to Warp rays, which will then be countered nicely by your massive accumulations of marines (while pumping BC's, any extra minerals will be spend on marines). Why not thors? If you start massing them early on for them to build up energy, they should really have no problem dealing with immortals. the 250 mm cannon does not activate hardened shields and pretty effectively kill immortals. In addition, during the midgame, getting ghosts with EMPs shouldnt' be much of a problem. In addition, Thors murder practically any Protoss gateway unit in 1 hit. Also, banshees are ridiculous. I don't really see why they're not used more for map control. Even without cloak they have the highest AtG dps (second only to battlecruisers and carriers). protoss has absolutely horrible AA. Banshees should be able to be used really well for harassment and map control.
We need to differentiate "harass" from "map control". Harass implies the ability to hit-and-run, take pot shots at economy, prevent/delay expanding, hinder unit production, etc. "Map control" implies having the dominant army, giving you the ability to freely do what you want, essentially.
Banshees are great, but stalkers, especially stalkers with blink, will decimate a group of banshees in a blink of an eye if you miss-micro them just once. That's why I feel banshees are best used for harassment, as opposed to being a core unit in the Terran army; they're too squishy.
Thors are great, I often get a couple as defense while I'm expanding to my 3rd. The issue is their lack of mobility, and how long they take to build. They're a fairly high-teir unit, and building an effective number of them, while having to get ghosts, as well as your core army, takes far longer and costs a lot, compared to what Protoss can muster up in the same amount of time frame, with the same cost in resources.
There needs to be an EFFECTIVE way for Terran to competitively take map-control mid game. Not WIN the game, but allow them to take a 3rd and 4th, just as easy as it currently is for Protoss to do so.
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protoss has been strong since beta began...was actually quite OP the first patches lmao, why are some players like incontrol acting like P has had it sexy hard? lol...
i do agree though that many, many Terran's overreact about their precious marauder. The nerf on the marauder did not change much about how strong the unit itself can be, and it was not cool to see such ease of just massing marauder...
but now that it has been weakened, it has fleshed out just how strong the immortal/sentries are. T lost their marine numbers vs P pushes, they lost marauder flexibility vs the same early game immortal/stalker/sentry pushes. Now, P can counter all of T's tech paths with a click of the immortal icon or collosus icon.
You cannot afford ghostmech off of one base. and if you can, it's pretty sketchy. And you definitely cannot be aggressive with infantry anymore vs P early game. But they can all-in or do strong pushes and be ahead in economy a lot of the game.
It's not like T dunno wtf they are doing...it is clear good T have tried everything. ghostmech, marauder/ghost, airmech, 8raxes (which actually suck vs good P) etc.
the only way you can comfortably stay even econ wise, is by building 5-7 bunkers (ridiculous i know) vs these early gateway/immortal pushes, so you can have your natural up, and then you can go from there. But it's difficult.
and it's not like if you EMP an immortal or two or seven that they become useless with P mass. They still fuck you lol.
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Terran has to go bio vs protoss whatsoever, colossus + storm vs emp and vikings. I really wonder who wins that battle!
-_-
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On April 15 2010 07:18 avilo wrote:
protoss has been strong since beta began...was actually quite OP the first patches lmao, why are some players like incontrol acting like P has had it sexy hard? lol...
i do agree though that many, many Terran's overreact about their precious marauder. The nerf on the marauder did not change much about how strong the unit itself can be, and it was not cool to see such ease of just massing marauder...
but now that it has been weakened, it has fleshed out just how strong the immortal/sentries are. T lost their marine numbers vs P pushes, they lost marauder flexibility vs the same early game immortal/stalker/sentry pushes. Now, P can counter all of T's tech paths with a click of the immortal icon or collosus icon.
You cannot afford ghostmech off of one base. and if you can, it's pretty sketchy. And you definitely cannot be aggressive with infantry anymore vs P early game. But they can all-in or do strong pushes and be ahead in economy a lot of the game.
It's not like T dunno wtf they are doing...it is clear good T have tried everything. ghostmech, marauder/ghost, airmech, 8raxes (which actually suck vs good P) etc.
the only way you can comfortably stay even econ wise, is by building 5-7 bunkers (ridiculous i know) vs these early gateway/immortal pushes, so you can have your natural up, and then you can go from there. But it's difficult.
and it's not like if you EMP an immortal or two or seven that they become useless with P mass. They still fuck you lol.
Rush an early banshee? The early push of immortal/zealot/sentry will absolutely die to just a single banshee. The robo tech can not deal with air at all. Stalkers are Protoss's softcounter to air, but they're not ideal in any way. In addition, early banshees allow you to harass. It's not necessary to 2port banshee. Just 1port banshee even without cloak will pretty effectively stop immortal pushes.
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On April 15 2010 07:07 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:I think there are some pretty important questions that need to be answered here without the bickering and general ad-hominem. Out of the whole thread i've seen some common questions/issues come up and I don't think we've really hit on many serious answers or even debated answers yet: 1) What builds stop the immo push regularly, and how have the still-successful terrans dealt with it?-Phrozen's replays (and some of our highly ranked terran contributors) suggest there is an answer, but is there some drawback to that answer? If so, what is it about this answer that perpetuates problems into the late game? I don't think the blanket statement "Toss t3> *" accurately describes the game right now. Toss air is still abyssmal compared to it's counterparts. Toss templar tech hasn't been a notable threat since the plethora of nerfs. What is it then that drives the steak into a terran's figurative heart after he fails to contain a toss from the get-go (as in last patch)? 2) What contiually drives the protoss to immortal pushing in almost every mu?-As with the above, I think it has to do with the relative weakness of gateway units, stargate units, and complete necessity of obs (espcially when banshees are a potential threat) at a very early stage of the game. Would we see more diversity with an immo nerf? I highly doubt we'd see anything more than a continued protoss struggle to stay relavent with so few viable opens, but this is also something worthy of debate. 3) If Immortals are a red-herring in the mystery, what terran unit changes would stabalize the early game? -Marines and Reactors were nerfed for good reason and I don't think anyone can ignore the threat of marine/scv all-in coming back. That being said, is there an adjustment to be made here without recalling prior patches imbalance? 4) Where to Zerg fit in all of this?-We're very focused on PvT in this thread, and it's fine to single out a matchup we think has some issues to resolve, but we can't look at units, abilities, or upgrades in the isolated vacume of one MU. Taking a big hit to immortals and/or sentries is a significant harm to PvZ, which is already a tough matchup. I think it's a justifiable statement that Terran have a much easier time with zerg (and have a lot more units viable for use against zerg) than their Toss counterparts. So if we make it to the point of pinning down a unit or set of units that may be out of line, we can't ignore what this would do in T/PvZ. FOR REFERENCE - Kawaii's TvPAzz v Kawaii 3Azz v Kawaii 2Azz v Kawaii 1For Irony - Demuslim as Toss (PvT) (sorry, had to be posted) Demuslim PvTIn my own humble opinion, as a mid-level plat player who went random for most of beta, I do not think the matchup is borked, but i'm open to the idea that testing can indeed prove me wrong. I think we need more of the top players here to share replays, play practice matches with one another, and start a serious diologue. I think a week of serious cooperation would yeild a lot of useful information, potential strategies, and get rid of some of the animosity here. We shouldn't loose sight of the fact that this is a beta, and we're in it to test. I'm not sure how many top players are already eyeing cash prizes and being draconian about guarding any creative and successful strategies they might have, but that seems about as useful here as saying "all X-race players are just lazy people." So let's get the diologue open, let's get more replays into this thread, and let's have an intelligent conversation to drown out the ignorance and belligerence.
Interesting. I think the problem with the builds I talked about is that if Protoss quick techs to Collosi as opposed to Immortals, the Terran will lose and Warp Prism drops with Collosi will be very effective. By the way, my name is Prozen, not Phrozen. =].
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I think maybe a simple fix to all of this is lowering the gas cost of some Terran units (maybe the ghost? Or maybe even the Siege tank?). "Not enough Vespene Gas" is the story of my life when it comes to TvP. That's why Terrans always feel they have to FE, because the army a Protoss can build off one base feels superior to the army a Terran can build off one base.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
@avilo: P wasn't "too strong" dude. They had the lowest win percentage overall after the WG nerf and it carried until this last patch.
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On April 15 2010 07:24 Prozen wrote:
Interesting. I think the problem with the builds I talked about is that if Protoss quick techs to Collosi as opposed to Immortals, the Terran will lose and Warp Prism drops with Collosi will be very effective. By the way, my name is Prozen, not Phrozen. =].
That's odd. I didn't think the colossus got nearly as much press for a reason.
Sorry for the typo(s). It was a long post and i'm at work. =)
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pvt has favored toss really hard ever since beta came out. the only reason terran has been winning is because of these cheap wins with 1011rax rush or the 1rax fe by me that used to stop everything and later on the marauder fe, dunno who invented that but right now we r out of cheap and abusive ways to win against a toss.
we have to play real and straight up and right now this is showing everyone the true colors of this mu. its not like terrans lose like tosses did before, we dont die vs special rush or any unbeatable fe by toss, we lose in every single aspect of the game. every single part about the game is p>t atm. if you think im wrong then sure, this is just a theory but sit and watch with me for a few weeks now. they will nerf toss more and more and start buffing up terran. the only way we won was through early game advantages or rushes, its the truth
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tomorrow its demuslim vs hasuobs, that will be interesting
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On April 15 2010 07:36 MorroW wrote:
pvt has favored toss really hard ever since beta came out. the only reason terran has been winning is because of these cheap wins with 1011rax rush or the 1rax fe by me that used to stop everything and later on the marauder fe, dunno who invented that but right now we r out of cheap and abusive ways to win against a toss.
we have to play real and straight up and right now this is showing everyone the true colors of this mu. its not like terrans lose like tosses did before, we dont die vs special rush or any unbeatable fe by toss, we lose in every single aspect of the game. every single part about the game is p>t atm. if you think im wrong then sure, this is just a theory but sit and watch with me for a few weeks now. they will nerf toss more and more and start buffing up terran. the only way we won was through early game advantages or rushes, its the truth
Wow, terrans have to play straight up and "real" for once?? Thats surprising, usually Terrans just abuse their way to wins. Protoss has had to play "real" and "straight up" since the first of beta.
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It feels like terran has no strong "Tier X" transition. Like, toss has high templar//colossus. Zerg has T3 Ultra/Broodlord. Terran's Raven with hunterseeker (needs FC, so high tier) are really good but you need 125 energy which is damn high. Also they get owned by feedback. Thors feel kinda bad when immortals are better than non-blink stalkers in every way that matters. [Normal DPS, vs armoured DPS, health, [-20hp vs hardened shields] 1 unit vs 2, same cost] So the toss will eventually be making a lot of them.
So basically aside from ghosts/medivacs i guess T really has no super powerful gas units, and none that you need to get past "T1" tech. So terrans get mass minerals and mass MM+ some ghosts. The problem is later is the game colossus and especially storm are extremely powerful against T1. Protosses complain it's the terran not transitioning and "abusing T1" when terrans can't really transition to anything so they just keep massing MM and have to win the econ war badly.
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On April 15 2010 07:36 MorroW wrote:
we have to play real and straight up and right now this is showing everyone the true colors of this mu. its not like terrans lose like tosses did before, we dont die vs special rush or any unbeatable fe by toss, we lose in every single aspect of the game. every single part about the game is p>t atm. if you think im wrong then sure, this is just a theory but sit and watch with me for a few weeks now. they will nerf toss more and more and start buffing up terran. the only way we won was through early game advantages or rushes, its the truth
See, this is where I think the divergence of opinion occurs. I don't see a lot of terran plays claiming that protoss is just a superior race on the whole at every point in the game and with any unit combination. A lot of T have suggested (for example) that banshee/viking is very strong vs. P and I haven't see any Protoss deny this, or come up with creative ways to stop it other than spending a lot on obs (which have no combat role but to detect). There have been replays to illustrate the strength of Air v Toss aswell. That isn't mean to say "well, just go air," but rather to point out that people have already discovered a weakness to protoss that lasts the whole game long. I've hardly ever seen creative raven use like in TvZ against toss either. Seems like point defense drone would definitly have a place against stalkers (which almost always consitutes the bulk of protoss AA). Again, I don't have any replay for comparison because of the lack of replays to draw on.
I have to respect your skill MorroW, but posts like that are just lazy. You aren't providing replays, you aren't pointing out any single point of confliction to debate. Instead you're just grossly generalizing that P>T "in all aspects," and expecting that your status as a player makes it gospel to the rest of us.
I would invite you to post a few of your own replays that have convinced you of this situation, as well as coming up with more accurate corrections for the problem than "toss nerfs."
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On April 15 2010 07:19 Kare wrote:
Terran has to go bio vs protoss whatsoever, colossus + storm vs emp and vikings. I really wonder who wins that battle!
-_-
i fucking hate it, I never win this battles when protoss army hits critical number my MMM ball even with emp just melts - my horrible micro isnt helping either, terran bio isnt rly cost vs colo/storm (theres no other option anyway) even if i manage to win toss can instantly warp new HTs with enough energy for storm...
i wish mech was viable in pvt ;/
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On April 15 2010 08:03 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:
I have to respect your skill MorroW, but posts like that are just lazy. You aren't providing replays, you aren't pointing out any single point of confliction to debate. Instead you're just grossly generalizing that P>T "in all aspects," and expecting that your status as a player makes it gospel to the rest of us.
At this point it's all speculation from both camps. The entire matchup is so based around early play that it's doubtful we've seen a true evolution of the late game in tvp to truly see how it matches up actually works transitionally.
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On April 15 2010 08:06 I_Love_Bacon wrote:
At this point it's all speculation from both camps. The entire matchup is so based around early play that it's doubtful we've seen a true evolution of the late game in tvp to truly see how it matches up actually works transitionally.
But isn't that the point of the discussion here? To eliminate this monotenous theorycraft that amounts to little more than snyde nit-picking on either side? We've truly seen a tiny fraction of what half these terran (or protoss) players could produce as evidence to their arugments, but neither side has come forward with the true plethora of information needed to adress the topic.
I really think the Terran here espcially need to divulge more replays. Simply put to rest some of the arguments that you aren't trying a lot of strategies by proving that you are being creative and still not getting anywhere. The whole back and forth of "I've tried everything," vs. "You haven't tried anything," is all that can come out of posts like I quoted from MorroW. We need tangible evidence to debate with. Not more hyperbole.
Are any of the top players here brave enough to set down a lot of replays to further their arguemnts, or will we continue to see baseless refrences to "what i've found since the patch," and "what i knew all along," etc. with the underlying assumption that said player encompasses far too much knowledge to be accurately conveyed through the imperfect medium of written communication.
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Well, I think there are some points that are wrong with this MU in my opinion.
a) You have no timingwindow to go out on the map and try to get some controll/pressure on the P.
In every single Match i've seen the P was the one that reacts.
1 Base vs 1 Base - P does what he wants.
1 Base + FE vs 1 Base - P tries to crush you.
1 Base + FE vs 1 Base + FE - You wont get a good timingwindow again.
1 Base vs 1 Base FE - This is the only situation in which I feel comfortable to putt pressure on the P. But you need 2nd gas for OC to get out 1-2 Ghosts pretty early to gain enough energy for 2-4 EMPs, otherwise you cant do it. And how many P have you seen that try to FE?
On some maps its not even possible to take your natural (Blistering Sands or Desert Oasis), on others it is hardly managable (like LT or Kulas Ravine)
The reason for this is simple - without shells your marauders are slower then stalker and they dont have the ability to regen hp (shield). So you can pressure them into their base and let them stuck behind a wallin that a immortal can rip into pieces in seconds.
But without it, you cant count on a well placed EMP at the choke.
b) Bunker are useless when Immortals come into play. Even in your defensiv position you are in a disadvantage. Together with Guardian Shield it feels like a P is just steamrolling over every defense you can build.
c) If you fight outside your base, let it be a open field and it comes to the clash, you can place yourself as good as you want it, the angle may be perfect and it doesnt look to bad for you ->
Forcefield pushes your army around like they where not even there.
You get split appart and your army is taken out step by step.
All these points lead to a point in the game where you need to expand to gain your 3rd, but you are not able to. You are getting behind in Units/Eco and without the 3rd its quite hard to get something more then just bio+ghosts+medivacs.
Tanks as support -> not enough gas
Banshees as support -> not enough gas
Vikings as support -> you often NEED them, but you have to cut down ghosts/medivacs for that and often marauders/upgrades.
So I'm asking you: Where is my timingwindow to take some mapcontroll?
I have some sugesstions too:
- Rework Forcefield that you can't place it on top of units. Maybe give it Health or Energy like a Point Defense Drone so you can use EMP to get rid of it.
- Rework Immortal Buildtime and their dmg to buildings, for their price they are the fastest build unit in the game and their dmg to buildings is to huge. Its so huge that protoss start do do Immortaldrops to snipe buildings. Losing techlabs/reactors and depots against this in such a short time is just not fair.
- Rework Guardian Shield - make it a upgrade at the core or higher the energycost, in my eyes its compareable to the Point-Defense-Drone which is a high-tier ability with huge energy- and tech-costs.
- Rework 250mm Cannon - Lower the dmg and higher the range.
- Rework(Nerf) Banshees - Dunno how, they impact TvZ also.
- Work at Bunker/PF - In my opinion PF shouldn't be that powerful and bunker shouldn't be that weak.
To be honest I think there need to be more changes to T(nerfs), especially Late-Air forces, but since I dont come to that place in the game I cant figure them out right now.
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if they nerf anything in this matchup, it should be banshees.. Holy shit they do insane damage vs everything protoss has. Basically only counter is phoenix, which vikings take out easy. Who cares if your immortal army can take out their little tank/marine army (which immortals are made to counter btw), when 10 banshees are pounding your stalkers down like carriers vs marines.
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I watch a lot of high lev replays and I lol everytime I see in any PvT matchup the P generally will have his Cyber Core finished before the Terran even starts his factory because of the 100 gas cost on the factory (if the Terran put a tech labs on his rax and made any gas unit you know for sure you are behind a tech level already).
Then the P answer to their fast Robo bay is 'go Ghost'... yet further away from a T's tech tree. Then they complain all T makes is MMM and ghosts.... duh!
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On April 15 2010 08:22 zizzefex wrote:
Then the P answer to their fast Robo bay is 'go Ghost'... yet further away from a T's tech tree. Then they complain all T makes is MMM and ghosts.... duh!
The Ghost Academy only requires the Barracks. I do not understand how that's further down the tech tree?
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On April 15 2010 08:26 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2010 08:22 zizzefex wrote:
Then the P answer to their fast Robo bay is 'go Ghost'... yet further away from a T's tech tree. Then they complain all T makes is MMM and ghosts.... duh! The Ghost Academy only requires the Barracks. I do not understand how that's further down the tech tree?
It's away from the techtree, not down in the techtree.
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Hey! - To respond to InControl, sorry if my posts came across as dark - it was just a response to your somewhat sarcastic posts.
Quite cool that a protoss rep got upped of me, and i'm pretty sure i remember that game ^^ (i went playing random for a day just for fun).
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On April 15 2010 08:38 DeMusliM wrote:
Hey! - To respond to InControl, sorry if my posts came across as dark - it was just a response to your somewhat sarcastic posts.
Quite cool that a protoss rep got upped of me, and i'm pretty sure i remember that game ^^ (i went playing random for a day just for fun).
No harm done. I got out of hand as well.. need to learn to be more patient/non abrasive.
<3
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Sweden33719 Posts
On April 15 2010 07:36 MorroW wrote:
pvt has favored toss really hard ever since beta came out. the only reason terran has been winning is because of these cheap wins with 1011rax rush or the 1rax fe by me that used to stop everything and later on the marauder fe, dunno who invented that but right now we r out of cheap and abusive ways to win against a toss.
we have to play real and straight up and right now this is showing everyone the true colors of this mu. its not like terrans lose like tosses did before, we dont die vs special rush or any unbeatable fe by toss, we lose in every single aspect of the game. every single part about the game is p>t atm. if you think im wrong then sure, this is just a theory but sit and watch with me for a few weeks now. they will nerf toss more and more and start buffing up terran. the only way we won was through early game advantages or rushes, its the truth
Lucifron created the marauder fe I'm pretty sure.
Anyway, there was definitely 1 a period where T beat P pretty easily straight up, because Ps didn't know how to counter Luci's expo yet.
I'm completely lost right now tho :[
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Can someone please explain why it's so hard to get ghost? All you need is a ghost academy which is immediately available after barracks. It's pretty cheap (only 50 gas) and ghost come with EMP. Yes, ghost cost 150 gas, but Protoss has to spend 100 gas per immortal and 100 gas per sentry, both of which are crucial. Furthermore, to detect cloaked ghost, Protoss needs to spend 100 gas on obs. I really don't quite see why it's so hard to get ghost... Yes, the factory is delayed, but as many people have already been whining saying, factory tech isn't that useful anyways that early.
Another path is to just rush banshees. I must've posted this like 3 times already and no one's explained why rushing banshees is bad. I dont' mean you commit completely to banshees. Just one starport with a techlab pumping a few banshees is really that hard/bad? You don't even need to research cloak. Without cloak, banshees are less effecient harassers, but they still rape ground very well. It should be pretty easy to get at least one banshee out in time for the initial Immortal push. Keep in mind that the only AA the initial immortal push usually will have are sentries, and they are not effecient against banshees at all. If Protoss adds stalkers, their push would be not only delayed (due to higher mineral, gas, and time cost of stalkers) but Marauders (which you would have anyways) would rape stalkers.
Can someone please explain those two things to me?
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On April 15 2010 08:49 Ryuu314 wrote:
Can someone please explain why it's so hard to get ghost? All you need is a ghost academy which is immediately available after barracks. It's pretty cheap (only 50 gas) and ghost come with EMP. Yes, ghost cost 150 gas, but Protoss has to spend 100 gas per immortal and 100 gas per sentry, both of which are crucial. Furthermore, to detect cloaked ghost, Protoss needs to spend 100 gas on obs. I really don't quite see why it's so hard to get ghost... Yes, the factory is delayed, but as many people have already been whining saying, factory tech isn't that useful.
Another path is to just rush banshees. I must've posted this like 3 times already and no one's explained why rushing banshees is bad. I dont' mean you commit completely to banshees. Just one starport with a techlab pumping banshees is really that hard/bad? You don't even need to research cloak. Without cloak, banshees are less effecient harassers, but they still rape ground very well. It should be pretty easy to get at least one banshee out in time for the initial Immortal push. Keep in mind that the only AA the initial immortal push usually will have are sentries, and they are not effecient against banshees at all. If Protoss adds stalkers, their push would be not only delayed (due to higher mineral, gas, and time cost of stalkers) but Marauders (which you would have anyways) would rape stalkers.
Can someone please explain those two things to me?
I can explain the second. Banshees are awesome, but surviving to get banshees is the issue. Protoss aggression usually starts before the starports, and it takes at least 3 raxes to put a stop to an early protoss attack. Now if you've been putting resources into 3 raxes then you will have very, very late banshees.
Like I've said earlier in the thread, I've never lost to a protoss doing a dual rax -> dual port strategy after the banshees started coming out. But the problem is getting there, when you have to put nearly all your resources into fending off the first attack.
For your question, I don't think anyone says that ghosts are hard to get. What they are saying is getting ghosts and tanks or ghosts and banshees is hard to get off of one base.
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Ghosts:
You need a ghost academy
-150? gas
Stim
-150 gas
Conc shells
-100 gas
Tech lab
-25 gas
-Each marauder:
-25 gas
So, only getting 1 tech lab 1 marauder and 1 ghost with upgrades that are NEEDED to make mass marauder/ghost viable you already need 600-650 gas.
Protoss:
Warp gate tech
-50 gas
Robo tech
-100 gas
Immortal
-100 gas
You can therefore go zealot/immortal with less than half the gas needed to go marauder ghost intially.
(USA vs Canada) + Show Spoiler +
If you rush banshees you are comitting even more gas. You won't be able to get marauder upgrades and the toss might be able to just bowl you over early. This happened in one of the USA vs Canada matches.
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On April 15 2010 08:49 Ryuu314 wrote:
Can someone please explain why it's so hard to get ghost? All you need is a ghost academy which is immediately available after barracks. It's pretty cheap (only 50 gas) and ghost come with EMP. Yes, ghost cost 150 gas, but Protoss has to spend 100 gas per immortal and 100 gas per sentry, both of which are crucial. Furthermore, to detect cloaked ghost, Protoss needs to spend 100 gas on obs. I really don't quite see why it's so hard to get ghost... Yes, the factory is delayed, but as many people have already been whining saying, factory tech isn't that useful anyways that early.
So you get EMP..... then what? So now you have a way for your army to be completely not slaughtered. EMP is not a magic button that suddenly makes the protoss units useless. Their units should be spread and you wont hit all of them if you attack and can still lose the battle depending upon who micros what. Further, ghosts don't come with cloak so if you're actually going to research it quick you're going to be costing your mineral/gas count even more. While the ghost is a needed part of the terran army against the Toss army, it doesn't suddenly make the protoss so weak that your army will roll over theirs; especially if they have you contained on your ramp (something I've seen a lot).
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On April 15 2010 08:54 shinosai wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2010 08:49 Ryuu314 wrote:
Can someone please explain why it's so hard to get ghost? All you need is a ghost academy which is immediately available after barracks. It's pretty cheap (only 50 gas) and ghost come with EMP. Yes, ghost cost 150 gas, but Protoss has to spend 100 gas per immortal and 100 gas per sentry, both of which are crucial. Furthermore, to detect cloaked ghost, Protoss needs to spend 100 gas on obs. I really don't quite see why it's so hard to get ghost... Yes, the factory is delayed, but as many people have already been whining saying, factory tech isn't that useful.
Another path is to just rush banshees. I must've posted this like 3 times already and no one's explained why rushing banshees is bad. I dont' mean you commit completely to banshees. Just one starport with a techlab pumping banshees is really that hard/bad? You don't even need to research cloak. Without cloak, banshees are less effecient harassers, but they still rape ground very well. It should be pretty easy to get at least one banshee out in time for the initial Immortal push. Keep in mind that the only AA the initial immortal push usually will have are sentries, and they are not effecient against banshees at all. If Protoss adds stalkers, their push would be not only delayed (due to higher mineral, gas, and time cost of stalkers) but Marauders (which you would have anyways) would rape stalkers.
Can someone please explain those two things to me? I can explain the second. Banshees are awesome, but surviving to get banshees is the issue. Protoss aggression usually starts before the starports, and it takes at least 3 raxes to put a stop to an early protoss attack. Now if you've been putting resources into 3 raxes then you will have very, very late banshees. Like I've said earlier in the thread, I've never lost to a protoss doing a dual rax -> dual port strategy after the banshees started coming out. But the problem is getting there, when you have to put nearly all your resources into fending off the first attack. For your question, I don't think anyone says that ghosts are hard to get. What they are saying is getting ghosts and tanks or ghosts and banshees is hard to get off of one base.
But what if you just go 1 rax and immediately a rush for banshees off a single port?
Factory immediately once you reach 100 gas, then start starport asap as soon as factory finishes. I don't know how fast it takes to get the factory, but from there, it takes 60 seconds to build the intial factory, while that's building you save up gas so when it's done you start starport immediately along with a tech lab on either your fact or rax. Starport finishes in 50 seconds, which is plenty of time to save up 100 gas for the first banshee. After switching ur buildings to get a starport w/ tech lab (which shouldnt' take more than a few seconds), you start banshee production, which takes another 60 seconds. So basically, from the moment u start your factory, you'll have the first banshee out in a little more than 170 seconds. That's just under three minutes. Once you get that first banshee, it should be easy to fend off the intial immortal push.
The initial immortal push will consist of 1-2 immortals and some gateway units. The amount of time it takes to get those immortals + robo is 165 seconds for 2 immortals, counting from when you start the robo. The first banshee pops out 5 seconds after that, and in my scenario for Protoss, I'm neglecting the build time of all the other gateway units. There's also a travel time, which is always going to be longer than 5 seconds -.-. If Protoss pushes as soon as they finish 1 immortal, at 115 seconds, their force will be a lot smaller and easier to fend off anyways.
EDIT: Obviously, this is all mathcraft and in an actual game it'll be different. But the discrepancy between this and an actual game shouldn't be too big. Now, granted, when done the way I described you're cutting all the bio upgrades (stim, slow, etc...), but honestly, a proper wall and some MM, and a banshee should be able to hold off the immortal push pretty well...
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On April 15 2010 09:01 Slayer91 wrote:
(..)
So, only getting 1 tech lab 1 marauder and 1 ghost with upgrades that are NEEDED to make mass marauder/ghost viable you already need 600-650 gas.
(..)
Protoss numbers
(..)
The marauders themselves are pretty cheap gas-wise, though, compared to sentries and stalkers, which is probably the reason why massing them is generally more effective than only getting a few and teching to mech.
P.S.: I believe the ghost academy only costs 50 gas.
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2 stalkers beat a banshee so if they have 2 stalkers in that first push (which they should) then you'll be screwed. Even if you manage to kill both stalkers somehow he can just warp in more to his pylon that he just placed outside your base.
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On April 15 2010 09:09 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2010 08:54 shinosai wrote:On April 15 2010 08:49 Ryuu314 wrote:
Can someone please explain why it's so hard to get ghost? All you need is a ghost academy which is immediately available after barracks. It's pretty cheap (only 50 gas) and ghost come with EMP. Yes, ghost cost 150 gas, but Protoss has to spend 100 gas per immortal and 100 gas per sentry, both of which are crucial. Furthermore, to detect cloaked ghost, Protoss needs to spend 100 gas on obs. I really don't quite see why it's so hard to get ghost... Yes, the factory is delayed, but as many people have already been whining saying, factory tech isn't that useful.
Another path is to just rush banshees. I must've posted this like 3 times already and no one's explained why rushing banshees is bad. I dont' mean you commit completely to banshees. Just one starport with a techlab pumping banshees is really that hard/bad? You don't even need to research cloak. Without cloak, banshees are less effecient harassers, but they still rape ground very well. It should be pretty easy to get at least one banshee out in time for the initial Immortal push. Keep in mind that the only AA the initial immortal push usually will have are sentries, and they are not effecient against banshees at all. If Protoss adds stalkers, their push would be not only delayed (due to higher mineral, gas, and time cost of stalkers) but Marauders (which you would have anyways) would rape stalkers.
Can someone please explain those two things to me? I can explain the second. Banshees are awesome, but surviving to get banshees is the issue. Protoss aggression usually starts before the starports, and it takes at least 3 raxes to put a stop to an early protoss attack. Now if you've been putting resources into 3 raxes then you will have very, very late banshees. Like I've said earlier in the thread, I've never lost to a protoss doing a dual rax -> dual port strategy after the banshees started coming out. But the problem is getting there, when you have to put nearly all your resources into fending off the first attack. For your question, I don't think anyone says that ghosts are hard to get. What they are saying is getting ghosts and tanks or ghosts and banshees is hard to get off of one base. But what if you just go 1 rax and immediately a rush for banshees off a single port? Factory immediately once you reach 100 gas, then start starport asap as soon as factory finishes. I don't know how fast it takes to get the factory, but from there, it takes 60 seconds to build the intial factory, while that's building you save up gas so when it's done you start starport immediately along with a tech lab on either your fact or rax. Starport finishes in 50 seconds, which is plenty of time to save up 100 gas for the first banshee. After switching ur buildings to get a starport w/ tech lab (which shouldnt' take more than a few seconds), you start banshee production, which takes another 60 seconds. So basically, from the moment u start your factory, you'll have the first banshee out in a little more than 170 seconds. That's just under three minutes. Once you get that first banshee, it should be easy to fend off the intial immortal push. The initial immortal push will consist of 1-2 immortals and some gateway units. The amount of time it takes to get those immortals + robo is 165 seconds for 2 immortals, counting from when you start the robo. The first banshee pops out 5 seconds after that, and in my scenario for Protoss, I'm neglecting the build time of all the other gateway units. There's also a travel time, which is always going to be longer than 5 seconds -.-. If Protoss pushes as soon as they finish 1 immortal, at 115 seconds, their force will be a lot smaller and easier to fend off anyways. Obviously, this is all mathcraft and in an actual game it'll be different. But the discrepancy between this and an actual game shouldn't be too big.
Because if they rush you with a few stalkers and all you have is 1 rax you'll probably die. I never go one rax because that's risky. I like a build that is safe versus any toss opening, and running in with 3 stalkers while robo teching is not uncommon. You're much better off using bunkers and multiple raxes and having a slow&steady tech to banshees, than you are trying to race the wind.
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even if you survive the toss immortal first push with banshee tech, all he has to do go pure stalkers to pair with his immortals and your banshee tech is useless (you sunk all those money into getting banshee which will be shutdown hard by mass stalker). Stalkers build much faster than banshees so even if he is good at microing them eventually your stalker group is too big to hold off with banshee.
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@Floop and Shinosai:
Stalkers can counter banshees, yes, but it takes quite a decent investment to get 2 stalkers. That's as much as 1 immortal or 1 sentry or 2 zealots.. Furthermore, Marauders, which you should have anyways, rape stalkers 1v1 and en mass.
In addition, by racing the wind to try to get the first banshee out asap, you will likely have an excess of minerals, which can be used to add on a (late) second barrack, which should help reinforce your defensive line when the push actually arrives.
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On April 15 2010 09:26 Ryuu314 wrote:
@Floop and Shinosai:
Stalkers can counter banshees, yes, but it takes quite a decent investment to get 2 stalkers. That's as much as 1 immortal or 1 sentry or 2 zealots.. Furthermore, Marauders, which you should have anyways, rape stalkers 1v1 and en mass.
In addition, by racing the wind to try to get the first banshee out asap, you will likely have an excess of minerals, which can be used to add on a (late) second barrack, which should help reinforce your defensive line when the push actually arrives.
But if you're trying to get an insane fast banshee you won't have marauders.
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Jesus christ people. Start posting banshee replays or shut the hell up about how ineffective it is.
We don't need more "oh that can't possibly work," in this thread with no replay accompanying it. Stop bickering and start posting with substance.
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Ghost EMP spam, and micro MMM out of psi storms...problem sol-ved...
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Clearly terrans are bitching and not trying anything other than maradeurs.
If Immortals are so freaking strong why not to use EMP and tank/thors? Why tier1 units has to fight everything?
Thors/banshees/tanks do insane damage for their cost, just couple it with emp vs Immortals. If you are not able to do that then don't play terran.
Jinro is saying that he doesn't know what to do. Of course he doesn't. In last replay he was massing pure Thors and didn't bother to research cloak and emp HTs.
It is not a-move game, play more creative.
If you go by unit parameters, terrans are the strongest race. Just learn how to use that advantage.
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On April 15 2010 09:41 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:
Jesus christ people. Start posting banshee replays or shut the hell up about how ineffective it is.
We don't need more "oh that can't possibly work," in this thread with no replay accompanying it. Stop bickering and start posting with substance.
And if someone tells me to straight tech to battle cruisers do I need to post a replay for that too in order to say that it's vulnerable to rush?
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On April 15 2010 09:42 shinosai wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2010 09:41 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:
Jesus christ people. Start posting banshee replays or shut the hell up about how ineffective it is.
We don't need more "oh that can't possibly work," in this thread with no replay accompanying it. Stop bickering and start posting with substance. And if someone tells me to straight tech to battle cruisers do I need to post a replay for that too in order to say that it's vulnerable to rush?
Because clearly BC's are comparable to banshees. Not like someone has already come up with a creative way to make a hella-fast banshee a long time ago or anything.
Yes, the burden of proof is on you. You've claimed to have "tried everything," now it's time to prove it and stop re-iterating the tired "can't do anything," stuff with nothing to go on but your word.
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On April 15 2010 09:42 shinosai wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2010 09:41 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:
Jesus christ people. Start posting banshee replays or shut the hell up about how ineffective it is.
We don't need more "oh that can't possibly work," in this thread with no replay accompanying it. Stop bickering and start posting with substance. And if someone tells me to straight tech to battle cruisers do I need to post a replay for that too in order to say that it's vulnerable to rush?
Check last game of Naruto vs Mana. It shows how to use banshees+MM one base.
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On April 15 2010 09:42 shinosai wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2010 09:41 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:
Jesus christ people. Start posting banshee replays or shut the hell up about how ineffective it is.
We don't need more "oh that can't possibly work," in this thread with no replay accompanying it. Stop bickering and start posting with substance. And if someone tells me to straight tech to battle cruisers do I need to post a replay for that too in order to say that it's vulnerable to rush?
Well the difference is that people (like me) have mathcrafted and theorycrafted ways for how a banshee rush could work. What I would like to see is a banshee rush that is not simply a 2-3 rax transition from MM to 2port banshees. If it still clearly doesn't work then fine. I'll shut up about banshee rushing and move on to the next possible strat or admit defeat.
I would gladly test it but I'm no Terran player and will probably get all the timings wrong.
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On April 15 2010 09:45 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2010 09:42 shinosai wrote:On April 15 2010 09:41 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:
Jesus christ people. Start posting banshee replays or shut the hell up about how ineffective it is.
We don't need more "oh that can't possibly work," in this thread with no replay accompanying it. Stop bickering and start posting with substance. And if someone tells me to straight tech to battle cruisers do I need to post a replay for that too in order to say that it's vulnerable to rush? Because clearly BC's are comparable to banshees. Not like someone has already come up with a creative way to make a hella-fast banshee a long time ago or anything. Yes, the burden of proof is on you. You've claimed to have "tried everything," now it's time to prove it and stop re-iterating the tired "can't do anything," stuff with nothing to go on but your word.
I think you're quoting someone else.
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On April 15 2010 09:42 hellitsaboutme wrote:
Clearly terrans are bitching and not trying anything other than maradeurs.
If Immortals are so freaking strong why not to use EMP and tank/thors? Why tier1 units has to fight everything?
Thors/banshees/tanks do insane damage for their cost, just couple it with emp vs Immortals. If you are not able to do that then don't play terran.
Jinro is saying that he doesn't know what to do. Of course he doesn't. In last replay he was massing pure Thors and didn't bother to research cloak and emp HTs.
It is not a-move game, play more creative.
If you go by unit parameters, terrans are the strongest race. Just learn how to use that advantage.
Nope getting owned by a lot of stuff and I try not to mass marauders.
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I've been opening 2 port banshee every game, I honestly think it's the safest BO in this match-up. If you rush straight to them you'll have 2 out when their immortal push hits, and cloak will be almost done, which completely repels that strategy (which I've seen to be a favorite in the limitted games I've played).
From there, you go straight into harassment mode while getting more banshees 2 at a time as you see fit and throwing down an expo. By the time they've dealt with your harass it should be 2 base vs 2 base and you can go anywhere from there.
I like to throw down 4 more raxes and go bio since you already have the ports for medivacs.
I've been in games where the protoss gets all mad and calls it cheese but whatever, it works. Especially now that marauder FE is losing effectiveness.
Edit: Here's my banshee build:
10 depot
11 rax (wall your ramp, get marines as needed)
12 gas
15 OC
16 gas
17 depot
18 factory
23 depot
24 starport, starport
24 tech lab on rax and factory
From there you should have 400 gas for two banshees and cloak when the ports finish and you liftoff and switch.
Here's a game I just played (platinum level) that illustrates how powerful it can be.
http://bit.ly/bkd2rg
Banshees are actually better than you'd think against stalkers as well, they can hold their own in equal numbers.
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lol, it's sickening reading the amount of newbs trying to tell some of the best players in the world how to play. Also if your playing toss and you let your opponent "mass" banshee, you are playing terribly wrong.
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On April 15 2010 09:55 shinosai wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2010 09:45 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:On April 15 2010 09:42 shinosai wrote:On April 15 2010 09:41 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:
Jesus christ people. Start posting banshee replays or shut the hell up about how ineffective it is.
We don't need more "oh that can't possibly work," in this thread with no replay accompanying it. Stop bickering and start posting with substance. And if someone tells me to straight tech to battle cruisers do I need to post a replay for that too in order to say that it's vulnerable to rush? Because clearly BC's are comparable to banshees. Not like someone has already come up with a creative way to make a hella-fast banshee a long time ago or anything. Yes, the burden of proof is on you. You've claimed to have "tried everything," now it's time to prove it and stop re-iterating the tired "can't do anything," stuff with nothing to go on but your word. I think you're quoting someone else.
And the cop-out comes again.
Good to see the terran here try so hard to prove their point.
Sorry guys, but as we've continued to say, if you have tried "everything" or "lots of stuff," then start posting the shit you tried.
There is absolutely no point in these retarted phantom debates with no substance.
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On April 15 2010 09:57 sikatrix wrote:
lol, it's sickening reading the amount of newbs trying to tell some of the best players in the world how to play. Also if your playing toss and you let your opponent "mass" banshee, you are playing terribly wrong.
Right. 'cause it's so easy to stop a Terran from massing air when all of your anti-air options (ie stalkers, don't even try to mention stargate units as viable in the current state of PvT) get buttraped by marines and marauders.
Furthermore, all of your robo tech pushing options (immortals and colossi) get butt raped by Terran air.
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On April 15 2010 10:01 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2010 09:55 shinosai wrote:On April 15 2010 09:45 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:On April 15 2010 09:42 shinosai wrote:On April 15 2010 09:41 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:
Jesus christ people. Start posting banshee replays or shut the hell up about how ineffective it is.
We don't need more "oh that can't possibly work," in this thread with no replay accompanying it. Stop bickering and start posting with substance. And if someone tells me to straight tech to battle cruisers do I need to post a replay for that too in order to say that it's vulnerable to rush? Because clearly BC's are comparable to banshees. Not like someone has already come up with a creative way to make a hella-fast banshee a long time ago or anything. Yes, the burden of proof is on you. You've claimed to have "tried everything," now it's time to prove it and stop re-iterating the tired "can't do anything," stuff with nothing to go on but your word. I think you're quoting someone else. And the cop-out comes again. Good to see the terran here try so hard to prove their point. Sorry guys, but as we've continued to say, if you have tried "everything" or "lots of stuff," then start posting the shit you tried. There is absolutely no point in these retarted phantom debates with no substance.
What copout? You are quoting someone else you fucking moron. I didn't say I have tried "everything" or "lots of stuff." Would you get a god damn pulse? The only thing I am arguing right now is that straight tech to banshee is not safe, and your piece of shit build isn't good. There are plenty of builds out there that do work, and while they may not be particularly effective vs toss, since we are after all arguing that ran is at a disadvantage here, at least they aren't a piece of shit build that will get you killed 3 minutes into the game.
Now use your fucking brain for two seconds and suggest a build, and I'll gladly try it out. I tried out pfrozens build. But you're asking me to show the burden of proof that straight teching to tier 3 ISN'T RISKY?
It's not even worth arguing with you toss players, anyways. You suggest these terrible, awful strategies, then tell us we have to use them in order to prove that they suck balls. How about YOU use them and I'll beat the shit out of you with toss?
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So I tried the rax FE on metalopolis not having an extra barrier to protect your cc is really annoying. Just sharing.
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Point Defence Drone! i have been using this in my plays recently and its working great i have no complaints about tvp anymore after i started trying new builds and incorporating pdd, although the 1 base warpgate rushes are still very deadly.
a dropship with 4 maraudors, 1 banshee and 1 raven with pdd can do serious damage to the protoss econ, and it doesn't come out that late if you do the right bo.
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On April 15 2010 10:16 EleanorRIgby wrote:
Point Defence Drone! i have been using this in my plays recently and its working great i have no complaints about tvp anymore after i started trying new builds and incorporating pdd, although the 1 base warpgate rushes are still very deadly.
a dropship with 4 maraudors, 1 banshee and 1 raven with pdd can do serious damage to the protoss econ, and it doesn't come out that late if you do the right bo.
PDD is definitely the ravens best ability. It's pretty nice once you get it, makes banshees almost invincible.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On April 15 2010 09:56 Meta wrote:I've been opening 2 port banshee every game, I honestly think it's the safest BO in this match-up. If you rush straight to them you'll have 2 out when their immortal push hits, and cloak will be almost done, which completely repels that strategy (which I've seen to be a favorite in the limitted games I've played). From there, you go straight into harassment mode while getting more banshees 2 at a time as you see fit and throwing down an expo. By the time they've dealt with your harass it should be 2 base vs 2 base and you can go anywhere from there. I like to throw down 4 more raxes and go bio since you already have the ports for medivacs. I've been in games where the protoss gets all mad and calls it cheese but whatever, it works. Especially now that marauder FE is losing effectiveness. Edit: Here's my banshee build: 10 depot 11 rax (wall your ramp, get marines as needed) 12 gas 15 OC 16 gas 17 depot 18 factory 23 depot 24 starport, starport 24 tech lab on rax and factory From there you should have 400 gas for two banshees and cloak when the ports finish and you liftoff and switch. Here's a game I just played (platinum level) that illustrates how powerful it can be. http://bit.ly/bkd2rgBanshees are actually better than you'd think against stalkers as well, they can hold their own in equal numbers.
Doesn't seem good if he's going stalker opening or fast void ray, or 4 warp gates (how do you hold that?). Seems good vs fast robo but fast robo is like the least scary P opening anyway :s
On April 15 2010 10:16 EleanorRIgby wrote:
Point Defence Drone! i have been using this in my plays recently and its working great i have no complaints about tvp anymore after i started trying new builds and incorporating pdd, although the 1 base warpgate rushes are still very deadly.
a dropship with 4 maraudors, 1 banshee and 1 raven with pdd can do serious damage to the protoss econ, and it doesn't come out that late if you do the right bo.
I don't see how this helps too much - it doesn't block colossi or immortals, it helps a lot vs stalkers of course, but stalkers aren't a huge issue.
It's also vulnerable to feedback... like most useful terran units.
On April 15 2010 09:42 hellitsaboutme wrote:
Clearly terrans are bitching and not trying anything other than maradeurs.
If Immortals are so freaking strong why not to use EMP and tank/thors? Why tier1 units has to fight everything?
Thors/banshees/tanks do insane damage for their cost, just couple it with emp vs Immortals. If you are not able to do that then don't play terran.
Jinro is saying that he doesn't know what to do. Of course he doesn't. In last replay he was massing pure Thors and didn't bother to research cloak and emp HTs.
It is not a-move game, play more creative.
If you go by unit parameters, terrans are the strongest race. Just learn how to use that advantage.
Uhhh, first of all, I have mass marauders ONCE since patch 8. Second, I had thor/hellion/ghost/banshee. I won't claim it was the best microed game ever but ffs.
I had no chance to emp the fucking HTs because they were way behind his army and I had already emp:ed all his immortals. You realize feedback has longer range than emp, that you don't have enough gas to get cloaked banshees+thors+cloaked ghosts until you have a 3rd expo (which I didnt) and that he had observers =[?
"Straight a move"
Lol.
I've won lots of games doing exactly what you said, but when P already has a bunch of void rays like hasuobs did, banshees become WAAAAAY less good =/
+ Feedback basically rapes thors, rapes ghosts, rapes banshees.
I'm not even saying the matchup is necessarily imbalanced (I don't know yet), but what you are saying is just wrong in many instances.
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so many copper league protoss players posting here it hurts my eyes
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jinro don't waste ur time on the silver/gold players bud. It's all the bad protoss uniting like "OMG NO TOSS IS FINE IM WINNING 100% OF MY GAMES VS T BUT TOSS IS FINE, TRY SOMETHING NEw.. DURRRRRRRRRRRRRRR. LOL BUILD A GHOST U NEWB" Funny how the good ones realize there's an issue.
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Sweden33719 Posts
Can someone please explain why it's so hard to get ghost? All you need is a ghost academy which is immediately available after barracks. It's pretty cheap (only 50 gas) and ghost come with EMP. Yes, ghost cost 150 gas, but Protoss has to spend 100 gas per immortal and 100 gas per sentry, both of which are crucial. Furthermore, to detect cloaked ghost, Protoss needs to spend 100 gas on obs. I really don't quite see why it's so hard to get ghost... Yes, the factory is delayed, but as many people have already been whining saying, factory tech isn't that useful anyways that early.
Ghosts don't come with cloak anymore - it costs 150/150 and takes a long time -_- Ghosts aren't hard to get tho, they just don't "solve" anything. I mean, they are good - great even, but they aren't some "get it and you'll win!!" unit.
Wow, terrans have to play straight up and "real" for once?? Thats surprising, usually Terrans just abuse their way to wins. Protoss has had to play "real" and "straight up" since the first of beta.
I present exhibit A: super fast warp gates. In patches past, these were frequently used to warp-in push so quickly that you couldn't do ANY 1 rax build or you just died.
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Ghosts TvP are like HT in BW PvZ. You pretty much want to get them because they make your army really really strong, but they're definitely not autowin at all.
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Sweden33719 Posts
I would rather have my old 45 hp ghosts but have them cost 75 gas again I think ;<
EDIT: I also miss lockdown Would be so awesome against colossus....... Of course, 75 mana EMP is pretty badass too.
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On April 15 2010 10:38 FrozenArbiter wrote:Show nested quote +Can someone please explain why it's so hard to get ghost? All you need is a ghost academy which is immediately available after barracks. It's pretty cheap (only 50 gas) and ghost come with EMP. Yes, ghost cost 150 gas, but Protoss has to spend 100 gas per immortal and 100 gas per sentry, both of which are crucial. Furthermore, to detect cloaked ghost, Protoss needs to spend 100 gas on obs. I really don't quite see why it's so hard to get ghost... Yes, the factory is delayed, but as many people have already been whining saying, factory tech isn't that useful anyways that early. Ghosts don't come with cloak anymore - it costs 150/150 and takes a long time -_- Ghosts aren't hard to get tho, they just don't "solve" anything. I mean, they are good - great even, but they aren't some "get it and you'll win!!" unit.
Protoss doesn't whine when they have to research psi-storm. You already got EMP, thats hella big reason to get at least 4-5 ghosts.
Why they don't solve anything? How are you supposed to shut down HTs? I think you just don't play right if you say so.
Not to mention u can nuke !
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Sweden33719 Posts
I mean that ghosts are not "the solution" - everyone gets ghosts already.
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I would rather have spider mines. =D
But really, terran right now gets hit with a timing push with immortals too soon for mech to be a safe opener. If it wasn't for that mech would be unreal strong. I just vaporized a 170 food toss army with ghostmech and I think I gained food from macro over the course of the fight, which was about 10 seconds. Bio can't do that.
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Sweden33719 Posts
Yeah, with spider mines you would actually have a decent unit to spend your minerals on when meching. Unlike now.
EDIT: Another thing about meching TvP is that you have no good anti-air unless you make vikings, it's a bit annoying (yes, the thor is anti-air but he's only good vs light units).
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Man I'm so happy someone else wants to bring lockdown back too! I totally mentioned that earlier haha.
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On April 15 2010 10:22 FrozenArbiter wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2010 09:56 Meta wrote:I've been opening 2 port banshee every game, I honestly think it's the safest BO in this match-up. If you rush straight to them you'll have 2 out when their immortal push hits, and cloak will be almost done, which completely repels that strategy (which I've seen to be a favorite in the limitted games I've played). From there, you go straight into harassment mode while getting more banshees 2 at a time as you see fit and throwing down an expo. By the time they've dealt with your harass it should be 2 base vs 2 base and you can go anywhere from there. I like to throw down 4 more raxes and go bio since you already have the ports for medivacs. I've been in games where the protoss gets all mad and calls it cheese but whatever, it works. Especially now that marauder FE is losing effectiveness. Edit: Here's my banshee build: 10 depot 11 rax (wall your ramp, get marines as needed) 12 gas 15 OC 16 gas 17 depot 18 factory 23 depot 24 starport, starport 24 tech lab on rax and factory From there you should have 400 gas for two banshees and cloak when the ports finish and you liftoff and switch. Here's a game I just played (platinum level) that illustrates how powerful it can be. http://bit.ly/bkd2rgBanshees are actually better than you'd think against stalkers as well, they can hold their own in equal numbers. Doesn't seem good if he's going stalker opening or fast void ray, or 4 warp gates (how do you hold that?). Seems good vs fast robo but fast robo is like the least scary P opening anyway :s
I use a similar build in pvt so I'll comment.
Void rays get stopped very easily; P will have a very weak push composition and you'll have 5-7 rines by the time the first one would arrive. Its a bit scarier if P gets 2 voidrays from a hidden proxy then pushes out, but generally you win if you have good rine micro to prevent the rays from going supersayain level 3 on your face. make 2 vikings out of your starports while your banshees are
A) defending your ramp vs a simultaneous push.
B) Shootin' probes if he hasn't moved out or expoed.
I'll let him comment on how he stops the 4 warpgate push, because my build times cloak to finish when i have 5 banshees, 1 raven and 2 vikings, so the early timings aren't the exact same.
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Lockdown on colossi would be so legit. I think snipe honestly can go away. It's too apm intensive to be worth anything. Bring back lockdown and we might see ghosts as a counter to BC in TvT too!
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Sweden33719 Posts
On April 15 2010 11:14 L wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2010 10:22 FrozenArbiter wrote:On April 15 2010 09:56 Meta wrote:I've been opening 2 port banshee every game, I honestly think it's the safest BO in this match-up. If you rush straight to them you'll have 2 out when their immortal push hits, and cloak will be almost done, which completely repels that strategy (which I've seen to be a favorite in the limitted games I've played). From there, you go straight into harassment mode while getting more banshees 2 at a time as you see fit and throwing down an expo. By the time they've dealt with your harass it should be 2 base vs 2 base and you can go anywhere from there. I like to throw down 4 more raxes and go bio since you already have the ports for medivacs. I've been in games where the protoss gets all mad and calls it cheese but whatever, it works. Especially now that marauder FE is losing effectiveness. Edit: Here's my banshee build: 10 depot 11 rax (wall your ramp, get marines as needed) 12 gas 15 OC 16 gas 17 depot 18 factory 23 depot 24 starport, starport 24 tech lab on rax and factory From there you should have 400 gas for two banshees and cloak when the ports finish and you liftoff and switch. Here's a game I just played (platinum level) that illustrates how powerful it can be. http://bit.ly/bkd2rgBanshees are actually better than you'd think against stalkers as well, they can hold their own in equal numbers. Doesn't seem good if he's going stalker opening or fast void ray, or 4 warp gates (how do you hold that?). Seems good vs fast robo but fast robo is like the least scary P opening anyway :s I use a similar build in pvt so I'll comment. Void rays get stopped very easily; P will have a very weak push composition and you'll have 5-7 rines by the time the first one would arrive. Its a bit scarier if P gets 2 voidrays from a hidden proxy then pushes out, but generally you win if you have good rine micro to prevent the rays from going supersayain level 3 on your face. make 2 vikings out of your starports while your banshees are A) defending your ramp vs a simultaneous push. B) Shootin' probes if he hasn't moved out or expoed. I'll let him comment on how he stops the 4 warpgate push, because my build times cloak to finish when i have 5 banshees, 1 raven and 2 vikings, so the early timings aren't the exact same.
Hm, that does sound like it could be midly annoying for P to deal with.
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just tried this 4 rax fe thing against Socke twice (a german protoss if you don't know him already!)
and, i won the first game (he lost 3 stalkers trying to harrass my expo) meaning i didn't have to worry that much, then he directly headed to collosus/ht tech and i managed to win.
Though the 2nd game he didn't lose 3 stalkers, just expo'd and contained me with DT's while teching to HT/mass gateway units.
Although the strat seemed viable - if the protoss knows what he's doing it really does prove to be quite bad :S
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Homie De to the muslim what map was this on?
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What was your transition? From 4 rax FE to bio ball or marine/tank/ghost? I imagine at some point you should have a timing window to run him over/break out of contain since you're up 2 bases to one.
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Another page and a half of replies and still no more replays?
Cool.
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On April 15 2010 11:26 DeMusliM wrote:
just tried this 4 rax fe thing against Socke twice (a german protoss if you don't know him already!)
and, i won the first game (he lost 3 stalkers trying to harrass my expo) meaning i didn't have to worry that much, then he directly headed to collosus/ht tech and i managed to win.
Though the 2nd game he didn't lose 3 stalkers, just expo'd and contained me with DT's while teching to HT/mass gateway units.
Although the strat seemed viable - if the protoss knows what he's doing it really does prove to be quite bad :S
I told you it was a pretty good strat. Though all of us Terrans do need to discuss the best transition after defending the Protoss's push.
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I've tried out this proxy reaper strat and that is pretty much the answer to protoss AND terran. With a reaper in the base at 2:45 with a bunker constructing next to mineral lines, this strat is practically unstoppable. I guess terran technically have the advantage vs toss after all, with something even more cheesey than the immortal push.
Hopefully it gets patched soon, though, among other things.
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fuck it, I am making 3 planetary fortress at my choke and teching straight to air
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On April 15 2010 12:16 shinosai wrote:
I've tried out this proxy reaper strat and that is pretty much the answer to protoss AND terran. With a reaper in the base at 2:45 with a bunker constructing next to mineral lines, this strat is practically unstoppable. I guess terran technically have the advantage vs toss after all, with something even more cheesey than the immortal push.
Hopefully it gets patched soon, though, among other things.
oh god. don't make that strat popular. I just faced it at least 3 times today. It's really really gay and extremely hard to stop. Protoss basically has to hope that the Terran is stupid and runs his reapers into Protoss's probes so they can snipe it.
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whats the BO for quick reapers
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On April 15 2010 12:54 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2010 12:16 shinosai wrote:
I've tried out this proxy reaper strat and that is pretty much the answer to protoss AND terran. With a reaper in the base at 2:45 with a bunker constructing next to mineral lines, this strat is practically unstoppable. I guess terran technically have the advantage vs toss after all, with something even more cheesey than the immortal push.
Hopefully it gets patched soon, though, among other things. oh god. don't make that strat popular. I just faced it at least 3 times today. It's really really gay and extremely hard to stop. Protoss basically has to hope that the Terran is stupid and runs his reapers into Protoss's probes so they can snipe it.
The biggest issue I'd have is a Terran player is that I hope they can make standard play viable while nerfing the reaper rush.
It seems that late game TvP heavily favors P, and while T had many abusive early game strategies they were mostly cheese that if failed would put the T behind for the remainder of the game.
I wouldn't want to rely on cheesing every game to win, but I still want a way TO win, so hopefully next patch Blizzard can address these issues and make it fair for both races.
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On April 15 2010 12:55 kilika wrote:
whats the BO for quick reapers
10 rax 10 refinery 10 depot.
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I prefer 9 rax 9 gas 11 depot
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On April 15 2010 13:17 TheRedTornado wrote:
I prefer 9 rax 9 gas 11 depot
terrible. go 9 rax 11 refinery OC 11 supply.
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On April 15 2010 12:55 kilika wrote:
whats the BO for quick reapers
6 Rax 6 Ref
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Day9 seems to be a little more positive about the Terran situation in PvT.
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Socrates went mass marines & bunks on those replay. Wouldn't a single collosus punish that play? or is it so late that it doesn't matter anymore?
Edit:
nvm. This works.
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On April 15 2010 12:55 kilika wrote:
whats the BO for quick reapers
there's a link to a BO in this thread somewhere on previous pages.
8rax proxy by itself is already absurdly hard to stop for Protoss. Add a well-placed bunker and u have a quick and easy GG
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I tried this build earlier against liquidzephyr and CueCue and it fails against drop play and 4 warp gate zerg splurge. Then again I probably could have played both of those games moderately more effectively.
THAT being said..... I like it!
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On April 15 2010 13:52 FortuneSyn wrote:terrible. go 9 rax 11 refinery OC 11 supply.
9/9/11 isn't terrible. It gives you 25 gas for the techlab 2-3 seconds after the barracks finishes. If you gas on 11 your barracks would be finished before you have any gas at all.
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On April 15 2010 14:03 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:
Day9 seems to be a little more positive about the Terran situation in PvT.
Well, Day9 seems to be a happy and positive person in general lol.
On April 15 2010 08:44 FrozenArbiter wrote:
I'm completely lost right now tho :[
I like how Jinro is now agreeing with us. Thank you. Perhaps we can finally shut out some of the nonsense silver league protoss players are throwing out.
On April 15 2010 11:26 DeMusliM wrote:
just tried this 4 rax fe thing against Socke twice (a german protoss if you don't know him already!)
and, i won the first game (he lost 3 stalkers trying to harrass my expo) meaning i didn't have to worry that much, then he directly headed to collosus/ht tech and i managed to win.
Though the 2nd game he didn't lose 3 stalkers, just expo'd and contained me with DT's while teching to HT/mass gateway units.
Although the strat seemed viable - if the protoss knows what he's doing it really does prove to be quite bad :S
DeMuslim, what did you transition to after the 4rax? Do you mind sharing the replays of these 2 games with us so your fellow Terrans can learn and use them as a reference on the timings and stuff?
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On April 15 2010 14:34 Mente wrote:
I tried this build earlier against liquidzephyr and CueCue and it fails against drop play and 4 warp gate zerg splurge. Then again I probably could have played both of those games moderately more effectively.
THAT being said..... I like it!
The question is, does it lead to a losing game or put you in good position in midgame? You're still making an ungodly amount of marines and have a lot of barracks which is not conducive to a strong midgame/lategame. I think you'd have to figure out some sort of mech transition or do a pretty much allin timing attack because otherwise you're stuck with bad tech to go into lategame with.
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I just read over all the post in the thread, there were some things mentioned that were not addressed yet from the socrates vs azz terran FE replays, particularly, guardian shield and Collosus.
Guardian shield is early enough in the tech tree that it should be in play by the time the first push comes out. Instead of trying to climb the ramp, why didn't azz just hung around the natural to keep force his opponent to keep the bunkers around. With all the rines on the field, it would be natural for toss to get collosus, hang back until the range upgrade is finished, then take out the bunks/CC from the range.
The rines and bunks definitely extended the game life for terran to not die immediately after expand, but I'm still unconvinced. Instead of a maurader heavy T1 army, now its a marine rich T1 army. Yes, this is a big improvement, with the expand, there are more options to branch out ...
... which was the whole point.
hmm...
great job, I'm looking forward to see how the transitions from this build will shape up!
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Guardian shield (ie. more sentries) competes heavily with immortals for gas, so i really doubt you're going to have to worry about too many sentries if he has enough immortals to endanger 4+ bunkers full of marines and vice versa. Strat looks like a solid transition into mid-game by all accounts. You have your expo up, you can salvage the bunkers for a rebate on some of those defensive minerals, and the toss is now down a base and with a big econ deficit to make up.
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On April 15 2010 15:11 Floophead_III wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2010 14:34 Mente wrote:
I tried this build earlier against liquidzephyr and CueCue and it fails against drop play and 4 warp gate zerg splurge. Then again I probably could have played both of those games moderately more effectively.
THAT being said..... I like it! The question is, does it lead to a losing game or put you in good position in midgame? You're still making an ungodly amount of marines and have a lot of barracks which is not conducive to a strong midgame/lategame. I think you'd have to figure out some sort of mech transition or do a pretty much allin timing attack because otherwise you're stuck with bad tech to go into lategame with.
I'm more prone to say balls to the wall all in mnm ball of some sort. Even without medivacs. Also I played another game on kulas, back door got attacked and I got kited by stalkers/sentry rather than zealots/immortal. THE DOWNFALL OF WHOSIMAWHATITS in day9's daily today. Zealots blow in tvp PERIOD. The exception being proxy or some sort of zealot /colossus ball.
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I am pretty lost in the MU too, but here is what I have figured out.
12 rax, 13 gas, make 1 marine, then reactor
2nd rax >tech lab>concussive shell
Scan/scout.
If you see 1gate robo, add 3rd rax, and ghost academy, w/ 2nd gas soon thereafter. add stim after ghost.
If you scout 2+gate robo add 3rd rax w/ techlab and fact tech to thor. add ghost after 1 or 2 thor if
If you scout early twilight council, add double fact, put 1 on your reactor and get preigniter hellion, add tech lab to the bare rax. add ebay and couple turrets shortly after and tech to ghost.
Not sure what to do against 3+gate early pressure builds, nor voidray contains.
This is just what I have come up with playing around with transitions.
I have a very hard time expanding vs 1gate robo immortal push, anyone have any ideas?
Also I seem to have a hard time w/ 3-4 chrono boosted zealots at my base early as i usually opt not to wall because i prefer not to lose the depot to the immortal push. This doesnt happen that often but I am not sure how to respond, I can usually fend it off but I have to pull SCVS and am fighting an uphill battle the remainder of the game.
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On April 15 2010 15:47 febreze wrote:I just read over all the post in the thread, there were some things mentioned that were not addressed yet from the socrates vs azz terran FE replays, particularly, guardian shield and Collosus. Guardian shield is early enough in the tech tree that it should be in play by the time the first push comes out. Instead of trying to climb the ramp, why didn't azz just hung around the natural to keep force his opponent to keep the bunkers around. With all the rines on the field, it would be natural for toss to get collosus, hang back until the range upgrade is finished, then take out the bunks/CC from the range. The rines and bunks definitely extended the game life for terran to not die immediately after expand, but I'm still unconvinced. Instead of a maurader heavy T1 army, now its a marine rich T1 army. Yes, this is a big improvement, with the expand, there are more options to branch out ... ... which was the whole point. hmm... great job, I'm looking forward to see how the transitions from this build will shape up!
Yeah I think you can't expect more than was given already. It may be a marine heavy army but it's sitting on an expansion with 4 bunkers while the toss has been going 1base. Plus the barracks have no addons so there's tons of options to transition into. Heck, even turrets can hold colossi off for awhile. Definitely cool build to see, gonna try it^^
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After trying out the 4rax FE build and transitioning into marauders after a bit (before he can rush collossus) I've felt a BIT more safe/comfortable vs protoss tonight, though just one night of playing it can't really be too telling, so we'll see.
I'd like more input on top players' thoughts on that build though.
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searched the thread for help in this matchup, dont care if its imbalanced or not anymore, ppl just respond with biased poop in your face anyways. but there doesnt appear to be a strat I havent tried yet posted:-( I am having trouble vs P rite now.. admittedly I did have problems pre patch 8 but some success with an early push into expansion...
Halp plz
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I like a lot the terran BO in the first game against fast robot:
barrack tech, barrack reactor.
It seems better than double barracks+tech, because if you do it, you are low on gas and forced to prod marauders and expo.
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On April 15 2010 16:58 Angra wrote:
After trying out the 4rax FE build and transitioning into marauders after a bit (before he can rush collossus) I've felt a BIT more safe/comfortable vs protoss tonight, though just one night of playing it can't really be too telling, so we'll see.
I'd like more input on top players' thoughts on that build though.
imo 4warpgate rapes it
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On April 15 2010 11:26 DeMusliM wrote:
just tried this 4 rax fe thing against Socke twice (a german protoss if you don't know him already!)
and, i won the first game (he lost 3 stalkers trying to harrass my expo) meaning i didn't have to worry that much, then he directly headed to collosus/ht tech and i managed to win.
Though the 2nd game he didn't lose 3 stalkers, just expo'd and contained me with DT's while teching to HT/mass gateway units.
Although the strat seemed viable - if the protoss knows what he's doing it really does prove to be quite bad :S
Hey i been testing vs this 4 rax FE thing too with a few of the top plats
I am a bit inconclusive how this fares vs a 4 gate (or 5 gate? not sure whehter theres any benefit from the extra gate after 1 production cycle). Should 4 gate beat this build or is it even close?
Some terran did this build vs me yesterday but i responded by double expanding and he missed his timing window to punish it lol
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Hey, i dunno how to upload reps - just woke up, but from some more testing this 4 rax thing - it doesn't seem viable - only if the protoss makes large mistakes or picks the wrong unit choice.
Basically after i had 4 bunkers up and an expo - and i killed 3 stalkers (he tried to harrass and killed 1 scv, then i locked him in - was metalopolis) i set up all 4 refinerys for fast tech as i pretty much knew he was going for a robotics - after my factory started going up his robotics was going up also - i managed to get 4 vikings together with techlabs on 6 rax, and tanks out and pushed and won - by having 120 pop vs 90.
Problem is if he knows your doing this strat - he can beat it very easily, i don't think it's safe at all.
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Isn't the 4 rax FE build a bit weak to good shield abuse from the protoss? If he has 3 immortals and run's in to kill a bunker (while under guardian shield) and then just retreats to restore shields and repeats you have problems I think. Rines have 5 range, 6 from a bunker so immortals with 5 range don't take too much damage running in. Without marauders and their slow it's just hard to punish toss hit and run tactics, especially with guardian shield.
Fast colossi as a response to no early gas from the terran also seems to be very tough to deal with and is a easy tech switch for the protoss.
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The 4Rax-Fe Build is countered by a 4-5 Gatepush.
Watch Nightend vs Morrow, 3 games, 3 times the same ending.
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i wuv banshees, all the toss i play are campy little fucks that sit in their base untill they have colossus and everything they can possibly make and then come to crush my puny fucking BIO army
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On April 15 2010 21:19 p1ng wrote:
The 4Rax-Fe Build is countered by a 4-5 Gatepush.
Watch Nightend vs Morrow, 3 games, 3 times the same ending.
Replays?
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On April 15 2010 21:19 p1ng wrote:
The 4Rax-Fe Build is countered by a 4-5 Gatepush.
Watch Nightend vs Morrow, 3 games, 3 times the same ending.
+1
Totally Agree
I tried 4rax FE with Protoss in Asia Ladder and got owned with 4 5 Gate plus Colossus
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blink stalkers + collo (proxy the support bay) is pretty unbeatable. high marine count to stay safe against immortal push, and maps like metalopolis, LT you can attack from anywhere you want :O!
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On April 15 2010 21:19 p1ng wrote:
The 4Rax-Fe Build is countered by a 4-5 Gatepush.
Watch Nightend vs Morrow, 3 games, 3 times the same ending.
That's a different build.
Key differences between FE -> 4 rax & MorroW's FE build:
-the main difference is MorroW gets gas immediately after starting expo CC. FE 4 rax waits until after 4 barracks + FE are completed before getting gas. This allows for faster marines, which enables more marines in time for toss 1base timing attack
-MorroW's build gets 3 rax after expand. 4 rax FE gets 4 rax.
-MorroW's build uses the early gas for add-ons on the 3 rax. 4 rax FE waits until you see what tech the opponent is using before putting add-ons.
faster gas + add-ons means that morrow doesn't have enough units in time for the attack. But 4 rax FE focuses more on getting more marines earlier in time for the attack.
However, I think that if terran scouts NO ROBO-BAY he should switch to a different build (perhaps even not FE at all). For example, in those games, if I had scouted no robo-bay -> 4 gate mass zealot/sentry, like NightEnD did in those games, I would have gone marine + igniter hellions, or marauder + igniter hellions
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Thanks 2SCV1cup for linking the replays.
On April 15 2010 22:59 BlasiuS wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2010 21:19 p1ng wrote:
The 4Rax-Fe Build is countered by a 4-5 Gatepush.
Watch Nightend vs Morrow, 3 games, 3 times the same ending. That's a different build. Key differences between FE -> 4 rax & MorroW's FE build: -the main difference is MorroW gets gas immediately after starting expo CC. FE 4 rax waits until after 4 barracks + FE are completed before getting gas. This allows for faster marines, which enables more marines in time for toss 1base timing attack -MorroW's build gets 3 rax after expand. 4 rax FE gets 4 rax. -MorroW's build uses the early gas for add-ons on the 3 rax. 4 rax FE waits until you see what tech the opponent is using before putting add-ons. faster gas + add-ons means that morrow doesn't have enough units in time for the attack. But 4 rax FE focuses more on getting more marines earlier in time for the attack. However, I think that if terran scouts NO ROBO-BAY he should switch to a different build (perhaps even not FE at all). For example, in those games, if I had scouted no robo-bay -> 4 gate mass zealot/sentry, like NightEnD did in those games, I would have gone marine + igniter hellions, or marauder + igniter hellions
The Problem is, once you started the FE at around 19-21 Supply you can't know what he is going to do so a switch is hard since you a far behind without any gas at that point and there is no secure way of defending a FE without early gas (PF).
To your comparison of the builds:
Even with a few more marines you get totaly crushed, it makes no difference.
We are again at the point where we have to take a look at the power of Sentrys and Forcefield/Gurdianshield.
Since you can place fields above units AND buildings you can simply sepparate a lot units behind them AND prevend SCVs from repairing too. No difference if there are 20 marines seperated or 25-30 or whatever.
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Like I said, the build definitely helps to protect against Immortals. The problem is you HAVE to be sure he's going Immortals instead of a 4-5 gate push. If you see those amount of gates, you have to immediately tech up.
@ DeMuslim: I was thinking, if Toss tries to take a 3rd expansion before you take yours, wouldn't there be a timing window for you to use? I don't think the Terran should push out until he has a good bioball + EMP + a few Vikings. I used the build before and I was able to exploit a Timing window when my opponent tried to take his 3rd.
Edit: And iirc, Azz said that with that build the Immortal push comes approximately a minute (? not sure) after the Terran takes his expansion so you should scan at around that point to see if the Protoss went Immortals and if he didn't, you tech up IMMEDIATELY.
I'm glad to see that people have finally looked at the build I was referring to about 5~6 pages ago ._.
We have to discuss what to transition to though, that's what's important. The Protoss will most likely go Collosi so Vikings are a must and absolutely the Terran must get EMP. I think it was mentioned before, but it's really important for the Terran to not just waste his energy on his Orbital commands for MULEs but also to use them occasionally for scans. Sure it may cost you 270 minerals, but I definitely would like to have the information about my opponent's unit composition so I know exactly what to go. Sometimes, just sending an SCV is not enough as it doesn't survive long enough to see your opponent's tech.
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On April 15 2010 23:14 p1ng wrote:Thanks 2SCV1cup for linking the replays. Show nested quote +On April 15 2010 22:59 BlasiuS wrote:On April 15 2010 21:19 p1ng wrote:
The 4Rax-Fe Build is countered by a 4-5 Gatepush.
Watch Nightend vs Morrow, 3 games, 3 times the same ending. That's a different build. Key differences between FE -> 4 rax & MorroW's FE build: -the main difference is MorroW gets gas immediately after starting expo CC. FE 4 rax waits until after 4 barracks + FE are completed before getting gas. This allows for faster marines, which enables more marines in time for toss 1base timing attack -MorroW's build gets 3 rax after expand. 4 rax FE gets 4 rax. -MorroW's build uses the early gas for add-ons on the 3 rax. 4 rax FE waits until you see what tech the opponent is using before putting add-ons. faster gas + add-ons means that morrow doesn't have enough units in time for the attack. But 4 rax FE focuses more on getting more marines earlier in time for the attack. However, I think that if terran scouts NO ROBO-BAY he should switch to a different build (perhaps even not FE at all). For example, in those games, if I had scouted no robo-bay -> 4 gate mass zealot/sentry, like NightEnD did in those games, I would have gone marine + igniter hellions, or marauder + igniter hellions To your comparison of the builds: Even with a few more marines you get totaly crushed, it makes no difference. We are again at the point where we have to take a look at the power of Sentrys and Forcefield/Gurdianshield. Since you can place fields above units AND buildings you can simply sepparate a lot units behind them AND prevend SCVs from repairing too. No difference if there are 20 marines seperated or 25-30 or whatever.
How do you know this? I don't see any proof. People need to go play it and see.
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On April 15 2010 23:52 BlasiuS wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2010 23:14 p1ng wrote:Thanks 2SCV1cup for linking the replays. On April 15 2010 22:59 BlasiuS wrote:On April 15 2010 21:19 p1ng wrote:
The 4Rax-Fe Build is countered by a 4-5 Gatepush.
Watch Nightend vs Morrow, 3 games, 3 times the same ending. That's a different build. Key differences between FE -> 4 rax & MorroW's FE build: -the main difference is MorroW gets gas immediately after starting expo CC. FE 4 rax waits until after 4 barracks + FE are completed before getting gas. This allows for faster marines, which enables more marines in time for toss 1base timing attack -MorroW's build gets 3 rax after expand. 4 rax FE gets 4 rax. -MorroW's build uses the early gas for add-ons on the 3 rax. 4 rax FE waits until you see what tech the opponent is using before putting add-ons. faster gas + add-ons means that morrow doesn't have enough units in time for the attack. But 4 rax FE focuses more on getting more marines earlier in time for the attack. However, I think that if terran scouts NO ROBO-BAY he should switch to a different build (perhaps even not FE at all). For example, in those games, if I had scouted no robo-bay -> 4 gate mass zealot/sentry, like NightEnD did in those games, I would have gone marine + igniter hellions, or marauder + igniter hellions To your comparison of the builds: Even with a few more marines you get totaly crushed, it makes no difference. We are again at the point where we have to take a look at the power of Sentrys and Forcefield/Gurdianshield. Since you can place fields above units AND buildings you can simply sepparate a lot units behind them AND prevend SCVs from repairing too. No difference if there are 20 marines seperated or 25-30 or whatever. How do you know this? I don't see any proof. People need to go play it and see.
On April 15 2010 20:09 DeMusliM wrote:
Hey, i dunno how to upload reps - just woke up, but from some more testing this 4 rax thing - it doesn't seem viable - only if the protoss makes large mistakes or picks the wrong unit choice.
Basically after i had 4 bunkers up and an expo - and i killed 3 stalkers (he tried to harrass and killed 1 scv, then i locked him in - was metalopolis) i set up all 4 refinerys for fast tech as i pretty much knew he was going for a robotics - after my factory started going up his robotics was going up also - i managed to get 4 vikings together with techlabs on 6 rax, and tanks out and pushed and won - by having 120 pop vs 90.
Problem is if he knows your doing this strat - he can beat it very easily, i don't think it's safe at all.
;/
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On April 15 2010 23:52 BlasiuS wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2010 23:14 p1ng wrote:Thanks 2SCV1cup for linking the replays. On April 15 2010 22:59 BlasiuS wrote:On April 15 2010 21:19 p1ng wrote:
The 4Rax-Fe Build is countered by a 4-5 Gatepush.
Watch Nightend vs Morrow, 3 games, 3 times the same ending. That's a different build. Key differences between FE -> 4 rax & MorroW's FE build: -the main difference is MorroW gets gas immediately after starting expo CC. FE 4 rax waits until after 4 barracks + FE are completed before getting gas. This allows for faster marines, which enables more marines in time for toss 1base timing attack -MorroW's build gets 3 rax after expand. 4 rax FE gets 4 rax. -MorroW's build uses the early gas for add-ons on the 3 rax. 4 rax FE waits until you see what tech the opponent is using before putting add-ons. faster gas + add-ons means that morrow doesn't have enough units in time for the attack. But 4 rax FE focuses more on getting more marines earlier in time for the attack. However, I think that if terran scouts NO ROBO-BAY he should switch to a different build (perhaps even not FE at all). For example, in those games, if I had scouted no robo-bay -> 4 gate mass zealot/sentry, like NightEnD did in those games, I would have gone marine + igniter hellions, or marauder + igniter hellions To your comparison of the builds: Even with a few more marines you get totaly crushed, it makes no difference. We are again at the point where we have to take a look at the power of Sentrys and Forcefield/Gurdianshield. Since you can place fields above units AND buildings you can simply sepparate a lot units behind them AND prevend SCVs from repairing too. No difference if there are 20 marines seperated or 25-30 or whatever. How do you know this? I don't see any proof. People need to go play it and see.
Morrow is a better player then me, I mentiened the 3 games linked above..
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On April 15 2010 23:56 2SCV1cup wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2010 23:52 BlasiuS wrote:On April 15 2010 23:14 p1ng wrote:Thanks 2SCV1cup for linking the replays. On April 15 2010 22:59 BlasiuS wrote:On April 15 2010 21:19 p1ng wrote:
The 4Rax-Fe Build is countered by a 4-5 Gatepush.
Watch Nightend vs Morrow, 3 games, 3 times the same ending. That's a different build. Key differences between FE -> 4 rax & MorroW's FE build: -the main difference is MorroW gets gas immediately after starting expo CC. FE 4 rax waits until after 4 barracks + FE are completed before getting gas. This allows for faster marines, which enables more marines in time for toss 1base timing attack -MorroW's build gets 3 rax after expand. 4 rax FE gets 4 rax. -MorroW's build uses the early gas for add-ons on the 3 rax. 4 rax FE waits until you see what tech the opponent is using before putting add-ons. faster gas + add-ons means that morrow doesn't have enough units in time for the attack. But 4 rax FE focuses more on getting more marines earlier in time for the attack. However, I think that if terran scouts NO ROBO-BAY he should switch to a different build (perhaps even not FE at all). For example, in those games, if I had scouted no robo-bay -> 4 gate mass zealot/sentry, like NightEnD did in those games, I would have gone marine + igniter hellions, or marauder + igniter hellions To your comparison of the builds: Even with a few more marines you get totaly crushed, it makes no difference. We are again at the point where we have to take a look at the power of Sentrys and Forcefield/Gurdianshield. Since you can place fields above units AND buildings you can simply sepparate a lot units behind them AND prevend SCVs from repairing too. No difference if there are 20 marines seperated or 25-30 or whatever. How do you know this? I don't see any proof. People need to go play it and see. Show nested quote +On April 15 2010 20:09 DeMusliM wrote:
Hey, i dunno how to upload reps - just woke up, but from some more testing this 4 rax thing - it doesn't seem viable - only if the protoss makes large mistakes or picks the wrong unit choice.
Basically after i had 4 bunkers up and an expo - and i killed 3 stalkers (he tried to harrass and killed 1 scv, then i locked him in - was metalopolis) i set up all 4 refinerys for fast tech as i pretty much knew he was going for a robotics - after my factory started going up his robotics was going up also - i managed to get 4 vikings together with techlabs on 6 rax, and tanks out and pushed and won - by having 120 pop vs 90.
Problem is if he knows your doing this strat - he can beat it very easily, i don't think it's safe at all. ;/
On April 15 2010 20:09 DeMusliM wrote:
i managed to get 4 vikings together with techlabs on 6 rax, and tanks out and pushed and won - by having 120 pop vs 90.
;/
go play it more people. One game isn't going to decide anything.
On April 16 2010 00:06 p1ng wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2010 23:52 BlasiuS wrote:
How do you know this? I don't see any proof. People need to go play it and see.
Morrow is a better player then me, I mentiened the 3 games linked above..
I just got finished establishing it was a different build...
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On April 15 2010 20:09 DeMusliM wrote:
Hey, i dunno how to upload reps - just woke up, but from some more testing this 4 rax thing - it doesn't seem viable - only if the protoss makes large mistakes or picks the wrong unit choice.
Basically after i had 4 bunkers up and an expo - and i killed 3 stalkers (he tried to harrass and killed 1 scv, then i locked him in - was metalopolis) i set up all 4 refinerys for fast tech as i pretty much knew he was going for a robotics - after my factory started going up his robotics was going up also - i managed to get 4 vikings together with techlabs on 6 rax, and tanks out and pushed and won - by having 120 pop vs 90.
Problem is if he knows your doing this strat - he can beat it very easily, i don't think it's safe at all.
Yah this was my feeling as well. It can't possibly be a standard opening if it's punishable by protoss when he knows you're doing it, which he will.
I look forward to seeing the next patch.
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Note: Will post the 2 replays when i get home.
I played against the same protoss 2x in a row today, won one and lost one (lost the first one)-
Game 1 i tried proxy 8 rax reaper rush. Worked OK, but i totally failed after that to play a good game and got beat by an immortal + colossi push. Game 2- i think he was expecting the same reaper proxy rush so i wall in and tech str8 for siege tanks + banshees. I think because of the first game i was able to get away with the fast tech without an early immortal push coming my way. Get a pretty decent banshee harass off, get my xpo going, and then i just mass banshee / viking / marine to take the game. I think i only won that becaue a lack of early agression on his part, though. He then complains that Banshees are OP
EDIT:DO NOT ANSWER THIS For the record... what % of games does somone complain of OP units when you win? Im hovering around 30-40% lol.
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are you guys serious? complaining 4 rax FE isn't viable when protoss knows its coming? Well 1 base timign push isn't viable when you know its coming cause you can 4 rax FE....... its called starcraft. You all seem like you want one build that is going to work no matter what information you have about hte toss. Maybe spend some money on scans?
Saying that your build is counterable when P knows its coming is a terrrible arguement. The whole point of this thread was to say that 1 base P timign push is not stoppable. It clearly is..... carry on
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On April 16 2010 00:31 Boardin wrote:
are you guys serious? complaining 4 rax FE isn't viable when protoss knows its coming? Well 1 base timign push isn't viable when you know its coming cause you can 4 rax FE....... its called starcraft. You all seem like you want one build that is going to work no matter what information you have about hte toss. Maybe spend some money on scans?
Saying that your build is counterable when P knows its coming is a terrrible arguement. The whole point of this thread was to say that 1 base P timign push is not stoppable. It clearly is..... carry on
Yes we do. We want a safe build that can be adjusted to compensate for any cheesy allin play. Siege expand in BW was safe no matter what the hell toss was doing, especially if you scouted his build. Why can't we have a safe build in SC2?
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On April 15 2010 23:18 Prozen wrote:
Like I said, the build definitely helps to protect against Immortals. The problem is you HAVE to be sure he's going Immortals instead of a 4-5 gate push. If you see those amount of gates, you have to immediately tech up.
@ DeMuslim: I was thinking, if Toss tries to take a 3rd expansion before you take yours, wouldn't there be a timing window for you to use? I don't think the Terran should push out until he has a good bioball + EMP + a few Vikings. I used the build before and I was able to exploit a Timing window when my opponent tried to take his 3rd.
Edit: And iirc, Azz said that with that build the Immortal push comes approximately a minute (? not sure) after the Terran takes his expansion so you should scan at around that point to see if the Protoss went Immortals and if he didn't, you tech up IMMEDIATELY.
I'm glad to see that people have finally looked at the build I was referring to about 5~6 pages ago ._.
We have to discuss what to transition to though, that's what's important. The Protoss will most likely go Collosi so Vikings are a must and absolutely the Terran must get EMP. I think it was mentioned before, but it's really important for the Terran to not just waste his energy on his Orbital commands for MULEs but also to use them occasionally for scans. Sure it may cost you 270 minerals, but I definitely would like to have the information about my opponent's unit composition so I know exactly what to go. Sometimes, just sending an SCV is not enough as it doesn't survive long enough to see your opponent's tech.
good post. glad to see someone is actually approaching this matchup sensibly instead of "i cant just spam mules and go one build, get an economic advantage, and win"
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On April 16 2010 00:35 Floophead_III wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2010 00:31 Boardin wrote:
are you guys serious? complaining 4 rax FE isn't viable when protoss knows its coming? Well 1 base timign push isn't viable when you know its coming cause you can 4 rax FE....... its called starcraft. You all seem like you want one build that is going to work no matter what information you have about hte toss. Maybe spend some money on scans?
Saying that your build is counterable when P knows its coming is a terrrible arguement. The whole point of this thread was to say that 1 base P timign push is not stoppable. It clearly is..... carry on Yes we do. We want a safe build that can be adjusted to compensate for any cheesy allin play. Siege expand in BW was safe no matter what the hell toss was doing, especially if you scouted his build. Why can't we have a safe build in SC2?
No race has a safe build that can stop all variations of opponents unit comp.... and calling a timing push cheese?
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On April 16 2010 00:37 Boardin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2010 00:35 Floophead_III wrote:On April 16 2010 00:31 Boardin wrote:
are you guys serious? complaining 4 rax FE isn't viable when protoss knows its coming? Well 1 base timign push isn't viable when you know its coming cause you can 4 rax FE....... its called starcraft. You all seem like you want one build that is going to work no matter what information you have about hte toss. Maybe spend some money on scans?
Saying that your build is counterable when P knows its coming is a terrrible arguement. The whole point of this thread was to say that 1 base P timign push is not stoppable. It clearly is..... carry on Yes we do. We want a safe build that can be adjusted to compensate for any cheesy allin play. Siege expand in BW was safe no matter what the hell toss was doing, especially if you scouted his build. Why can't we have a safe build in SC2? No race has a safe build that can stop all variations of opponents unit comp.... and calling a timing push cheese?
and thats comming from somebody who uses race which opens 1gate robo in 95% of games
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sc1 worked in the way that it was possible to scout and it was possible to react to it
sc2 works in the way that u make a decision and later on u find out if ur ahead or not, theres not alot of room for scout and respond in sc2
sc1 was a triangle of cheese, safe and abusive where cheese would beat abusive which would beat safe and safe would stop cheese.
in sc2 u have cheese cheese and cheese. if there is no safe build it wont be near possible to make an abusive build that beats the safe build since it doesnt exist and thats why there is only room for cheese.
the main problem is that scouting is too hard, adapting is too hard and defending is too hard
sc1:
2gate robo > 2fac
2fac > 1gate nexus
1gate nexus > siege fe
siege fe > 2gate robo
it was possible to scout each other and it was possible to comeback from a disadvantage. hell anything was possible in sc1 thats how it was so brilliant. in sc2 u cant do shit in theory and if u disagree i guess u just didnt play enough games or analyse enough to find this out :<
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Agreed, this is starting to get rediculous. People are taking this new strat and applying a kind of skrutiny (knowing that they already have egg on their face for saying NOTHING could beat immo openers) that is halarious.
"Can't use it if the toss knows it's coming."
Seriously?
On April 16 2010 00:44 MorroW wrote:
sc1 worked in the way that it was possible to scout and it was possible to react to it
sc2 works in the way that u make a decision and later on u find out if ur ahead or not, theres not alot of room for scout and respond in sc2
sc1 was a triangle of cheese, safe and abusive where cheese would beat abusive which would beat safe and safe would stop cheese.
in sc2 u have cheese cheese and cheese. if there is no safe build it wont be near possible to make an abusive build that beats the safe build since it doesnt exist and thats why there is only room for cheese.
the main problem is that scouting is too hard, adapting is too hard and defending is too hard
What makes scouting hard? You've got arguably the best scouting tool in the early game (scan), which admittedly competes for econ with the mule, but that doesn't make it un-useable. Combined with an scv scout, i'm not sure how you could find scouting a toss hard. It's not like they block ramps vs. terran, lol.
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On April 16 2010 00:42 2SCV1cup wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2010 00:37 Boardin wrote:On April 16 2010 00:35 Floophead_III wrote:On April 16 2010 00:31 Boardin wrote:
are you guys serious? complaining 4 rax FE isn't viable when protoss knows its coming? Well 1 base timign push isn't viable when you know its coming cause you can 4 rax FE....... its called starcraft. You all seem like you want one build that is going to work no matter what information you have about hte toss. Maybe spend some money on scans?
Saying that your build is counterable when P knows its coming is a terrrible arguement. The whole point of this thread was to say that 1 base P timign push is not stoppable. It clearly is..... carry on Yes we do. We want a safe build that can be adjusted to compensate for any cheesy allin play. Siege expand in BW was safe no matter what the hell toss was doing, especially if you scouted his build. Why can't we have a safe build in SC2? No race has a safe build that can stop all variations of opponents unit comp.... and calling a timing push cheese? and thats comming from somebody who uses race which opens 1gate robo in 95% of games
yes, most toss go one gate robo because terran weren't adjusting to compensate. hopefully now they will be. I constantly try new builds with my friends... its the nature of a ladder for people to exploit the strats that are tough to beat at the moment. Same way 95 percent of T went fast reaper and/or marauder last patch.
I understand its tough to compensate for patch changes especially when people tend to play follow the leader with builds. My point is that 1 gate robo into timing push is not "unbeatable" inf act if you defend it, your way ahead. You might say that if toss knows how your defending he can adapt and punish you..... I dont see this as an issue. You can stay scouting until he gets a stalker up. He should have started his robo by then and you know that hes getting it. Scan once more about 1:30 later and you'll know how many gates/if immortal is producing. I never get scanned by terrans nearly as much as in SC1, adding some in should make sure you have the appropriate counter to his strategy, not to mention your 4 rax FE puts a ton of pressure on the toss to do big dmg
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On April 16 2010 00:46 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:Agreed, this is starting to get rediculous. People are taking this new strat and applying a kind of skrutiny (knowing that they already have egg on their face for saying NOTHING could beat immo openers) that is halarious. "Can't use it if the toss knows it's coming." Seriously? Show nested quote +On April 16 2010 00:44 MorroW wrote:
sc1 worked in the way that it was possible to scout and it was possible to react to it
sc2 works in the way that u make a decision and later on u find out if ur ahead or not, theres not alot of room for scout and respond in sc2
sc1 was a triangle of cheese, safe and abusive where cheese would beat abusive which would beat safe and safe would stop cheese.
in sc2 u have cheese cheese and cheese. if there is no safe build it wont be near possible to make an abusive build that beats the safe build since it doesnt exist and thats why there is only room for cheese.
the main problem is that scouting is too hard, adapting is too hard and defending is too hard What makes scouting hard? You've got arguably the best scouting tool in the early game (scan), which admittedly competes for econ with the mule, but that doesn't make it un-useable. Combined with an scv scout, i'm not sure how you could find scouting a toss hard. It's not like they block ramps vs. terran, lol.
you dont get it but thats fine
how many games have u played? how far have u come in various tournaments?
im starting to get annoyed at ppl questioning the superior players
and to answer ur question sorry i cant, its too complex and u have to get to this to understand urself
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On April 16 2010 00:51 MorroW wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2010 00:46 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:Agreed, this is starting to get rediculous. People are taking this new strat and applying a kind of skrutiny (knowing that they already have egg on their face for saying NOTHING could beat immo openers) that is halarious. "Can't use it if the toss knows it's coming." Seriously? On April 16 2010 00:44 MorroW wrote:
sc1 worked in the way that it was possible to scout and it was possible to react to it
sc2 works in the way that u make a decision and later on u find out if ur ahead or not, theres not alot of room for scout and respond in sc2
sc1 was a triangle of cheese, safe and abusive where cheese would beat abusive which would beat safe and safe would stop cheese.
in sc2 u have cheese cheese and cheese. if there is no safe build it wont be near possible to make an abusive build that beats the safe build since it doesnt exist and thats why there is only room for cheese.
the main problem is that scouting is too hard, adapting is too hard and defending is too hard What makes scouting hard? You've got arguably the best scouting tool in the early game (scan), which admittedly competes for econ with the mule, but that doesn't make it un-useable. Combined with an scv scout, i'm not sure how you could find scouting a toss hard. It's not like they block ramps vs. terran, lol. you dont get it but thats fine how many games have u played? how far have u come in various tournaments? im starting to get annoyed at ppl questioning the superior players and to answer ur question sorry i cant, its too complex and u have to get to this to understand urself
Questioning superior players? LOL. We are trying to provide input into the situation. Just because you are a good player doesn't mean you shouldn't be questioned at this point in the beta. Great mechanics/knowledge of a 2-3 builds versus each race will take you very far in nearly every tourney. It's not like every superior player is an expert in metagame/strategy and should not be questioned. Especially with a game still so immature from a strategy standpoint
If you want to only talk to the top 10 players then this probably isn't the place
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Guys, I honestly think we're approaching the matchup with the wrong attitude. I think that most of us have just tried some builds and when it didn't work, we gave up. I may be first in my measly Platinum Division 43 and have lost to plenty of 1 base Immortal pushes, and at first I gave up. I dismissed the matchup, but then I felt that that was leading to nowhere. So I decided to watch my replays and analyze what I can do. Keep in mind that we can learn from our losses, we have to realize that in order to learn how to adapt to the Toss, we have to have a positive attitude and have discussions about the best possible options.
@ DeMuslim, I really appreciate that you have at least tried the build out as opposed to some Terrans in here who have dismissed it completely. But I feel that after you lost, you just gave up completely, that's the notion it appears.
All of us need to try to work together, have a positive attitude, and try to figure out what to do against the things Protoss can do against us. Have we honestly tried everything? I don't think the game is that imbalanced that we can't do anything to win. For now, I'm asking once again: let's discuss the followups to the 4 rax FE build because that seems to be the only sensible build to go against the 1 base Immortal push build. We shouldn't be bickering about how the build can't be standard. (For God's sake, this is the Beta, not the full game yet.)
We need to get our hats on and discuss in an intelligent fashion what we can seriously do, and that doesn't mean theorycrafting. We need to actually go play the game, try it out, and report results with replays. Come on, we're better than this.
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On April 16 2010 00:51 MorroW wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 16 2010 00:46 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:Agreed, this is starting to get rediculous. People are taking this new strat and applying a kind of skrutiny (knowing that they already have egg on their face for saying NOTHING could beat immo openers) that is halarious. "Can't use it if the toss knows it's coming." Seriously? Show nested quote +On April 16 2010 00:44 MorroW wrote:
sc1 worked in the way that it was possible to scout and it was possible to react to it
sc2 works in the way that u make a decision and later on u find out if ur ahead or not, theres not alot of room for scout and respond in sc2
sc1 was a triangle of cheese, safe and abusive where cheese would beat abusive which would beat safe and safe would stop cheese.
in sc2 u have cheese cheese and cheese. if there is no safe build it wont be near possible to make an abusive build that beats the safe build since it doesnt exist and thats why there is only room for cheese.
the main problem is that scouting is too hard, adapting is too hard and defending is too hard What makes scouting hard? You've got arguably the best scouting tool in the early game (scan), which admittedly competes for econ with the mule, but that doesn't make it un-useable. Combined with an scv scout, i'm not sure how you could find scouting a toss hard. It's not like they block ramps vs. terran, lol. you dont get it but thats fine how many games have u played? how far have u come in various tournaments? im starting to get annoyed at ppl questioning the superior players and to answer ur question sorry i cant, its too complex and u have to get to this to understand urself
That sounds like the Bush White-house answering questions on Iraq. What a convoluted pile of BS. Enjoy the pity-party way up there in your ivory tower.
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On April 15 2010 08:21 Skyze wrote:
if they nerf anything in this matchup, it should be banshees.. Holy shit they do insane damage vs everything protoss has. Basically only counter is phoenix, which vikings take out easy. Who cares if your immortal army can take out their little tank/marine army (which immortals are made to counter btw), when 10 banshees are pounding your stalkers down like carriers vs marines.
Phoenixes actually beat out vikings because they are much faster than them, and vikings don't get the damage bonus on them, and Phoenixes have more HP.
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On April 16 2010 00:51 MorroW wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2010 00:46 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:Agreed, this is starting to get rediculous. People are taking this new strat and applying a kind of skrutiny (knowing that they already have egg on their face for saying NOTHING could beat immo openers) that is halarious. "Can't use it if the toss knows it's coming." Seriously? On April 16 2010 00:44 MorroW wrote:
sc1 worked in the way that it was possible to scout and it was possible to react to it
sc2 works in the way that u make a decision and later on u find out if ur ahead or not, theres not alot of room for scout and respond in sc2
sc1 was a triangle of cheese, safe and abusive where cheese would beat abusive which would beat safe and safe would stop cheese.
in sc2 u have cheese cheese and cheese. if there is no safe build it wont be near possible to make an abusive build that beats the safe build since it doesnt exist and thats why there is only room for cheese.
the main problem is that scouting is too hard, adapting is too hard and defending is too hard What makes scouting hard? You've got arguably the best scouting tool in the early game (scan), which admittedly competes for econ with the mule, but that doesn't make it un-useable. Combined with an scv scout, i'm not sure how you could find scouting a toss hard. It's not like they block ramps vs. terran, lol. you dont get it but thats fine how many games have u played? how far have u come in various tournaments? im starting to get annoyed at ppl questioning the superior players and to answer ur question sorry i cant, its too complex and u have to get to this to understand urself
just ignore them, theres no point to argue with angry silver league protoss players lol
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On April 16 2010 00:59 Prozen wrote:
We need to get our hats on and discuss in an intelligent fashion what we can seriously do, and that doesn't mean theorycrafting. We need to actually go play the game, try it out, and report results with replays. Come on, we're better than this.
Pretty sure that our best (potential) contributors here are too concerned with prize money to share any meaningful amount of replays.
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On April 16 2010 01:02 2SCV1cup wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2010 00:51 MorroW wrote:On April 16 2010 00:46 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:Agreed, this is starting to get rediculous. People are taking this new strat and applying a kind of skrutiny (knowing that they already have egg on their face for saying NOTHING could beat immo openers) that is halarious. "Can't use it if the toss knows it's coming." Seriously? On April 16 2010 00:44 MorroW wrote:
sc1 worked in the way that it was possible to scout and it was possible to react to it
sc2 works in the way that u make a decision and later on u find out if ur ahead or not, theres not alot of room for scout and respond in sc2
sc1 was a triangle of cheese, safe and abusive where cheese would beat abusive which would beat safe and safe would stop cheese.
in sc2 u have cheese cheese and cheese. if there is no safe build it wont be near possible to make an abusive build that beats the safe build since it doesnt exist and thats why there is only room for cheese.
the main problem is that scouting is too hard, adapting is too hard and defending is too hard What makes scouting hard? You've got arguably the best scouting tool in the early game (scan), which admittedly competes for econ with the mule, but that doesn't make it un-useable. Combined with an scv scout, i'm not sure how you could find scouting a toss hard. It's not like they block ramps vs. terran, lol. you dont get it but thats fine how many games have u played? how far have u come in various tournaments? im starting to get annoyed at ppl questioning the superior players and to answer ur question sorry i cant, its too complex and u have to get to this to understand urself just ignore them, theres no point to argue with angry silver league protoss players lol
nice ad hominem attack but i'm plat. thanks
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On April 16 2010 00:35 Floophead_III wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2010 00:31 Boardin wrote:
are you guys serious? complaining 4 rax FE isn't viable when protoss knows its coming? Well 1 base timign push isn't viable when you know its coming cause you can 4 rax FE....... its called starcraft. You all seem like you want one build that is going to work no matter what information you have about hte toss. Maybe spend some money on scans?
Saying that your build is counterable when P knows its coming is a terrrible arguement. The whole point of this thread was to say that 1 base P timign push is not stoppable. It clearly is..... carry on Yes we do. We want a safe build that can be adjusted to compensate for any cheesy allin play. Siege expand in BW was safe no matter what the hell toss was doing, especially if you scouted his build. Why can't we have a safe build in SC2?
Why? Because neither does anyone else! This isn't SCBW. Terran isn't the same camptastic force it was in SCBW. You can actively kick some serious ass in the field now, and chase down and kill escaping units with things like the Reaper, Hellion and Marauder, so of course you can't just sit back, build tanks and expand wherever the hell you want. If you have that field mobility, and ease of pressure, you get Patch 8, where Terrans are battering down Protoss inside their own base for 2 minutes flat with Marauders and expanding, so the Protoss has to take a HUGE risk and either try and all-in or try expanding to keep up and simply pray they can keep up a sufficient wall of units for the next time the Marauders come back.
Now, without being able to smash Protoss into a pulp in the first 5 minutes, you find you can't just bunker down and do whatever you want? Simply shocking. Welcome to the other 2 races.
There is no 100% safe build for Protoss and Zerg, so why should Terrans have one?
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On April 16 2010 01:04 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2010 00:59 Prozen wrote:
We need to get our hats on and discuss in an intelligent fashion what we can seriously do, and that doesn't mean theorycrafting. We need to actually go play the game, try it out, and report results with replays. Come on, we're better than this. Pretty sure that our best (potential) contributors here are too concerned with prize money to share any meaningful amount of replays.
Pretty sure you're a troll.
I've been experimenting with 2 factory style play which seems to do pretty well, or at least not get steamrolled. The problem I have is that you still have such a difficult time taking your expo and you're pretty much playing catchup the whole game. Also immortals produce like 40% faster than tanks or something stupid like that, so he'll always have more immortals than you have tanks and that's a losing game.
And yes, I get EMP quite fast with the build, so don't say "you need to learn to emp."
I'll keep trying it and perhaps I can find a way to use hellions to keep them in their base while I expand, or use them to draw their force away from containing me while I expand. I still think it's a losing game though because I'm already cutting scvs just to maintain my 1 base production to not die.
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On April 16 2010 01:10 Floophead_III wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2010 01:04 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:On April 16 2010 00:59 Prozen wrote:
We need to get our hats on and discuss in an intelligent fashion what we can seriously do, and that doesn't mean theorycrafting. We need to actually go play the game, try it out, and report results with replays. Come on, we're better than this. Pretty sure that our best (potential) contributors here are too concerned with prize money to share any meaningful amount of replays. Pretty sure you're a troll. I've been experimenting with 2 factory style play which seems to do pretty well, or at least not get steamrolled. The problem I have is that you still have such a difficult time taking your expo and you're pretty much playing catchup the whole game. Also immortals produce like 40% faster than tanks or something stupid like that, so he'll always have more immortals than you have tanks and that's a losing game. And yes, I get EMP quite fast with the build, so don't say "you need to learn to emp." I'll keep trying it and perhaps I can find a way to use hellions to keep them in their base while I expand, or use them to draw their force away from containing me while I expand. I still think it's a losing game though because I'm already cutting scvs just to maintain my 1 base production to not die.
Troll? Prozen and I have been asking for people to post more replays since, page.. 12? And we have almost nothing new here but the same back and forth plus three Morrow games where he clearly didn't use the suggested build.
Post some replays and stop accusing every critic that they're trolling.
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On April 16 2010 00:44 MorroW wrote:
sc1 worked in the way that it was possible to scout and it was possible to react to it
sc2 works in the way that u make a decision and later on u find out if ur ahead or not, theres not alot of room for scout and respond in sc2
sc1 was a triangle of cheese, safe and abusive where cheese would beat abusive which would beat safe and safe would stop cheese.
in sc2 u have cheese cheese and cheese. if there is no safe build it wont be near possible to make an abusive build that beats the safe build since it doesnt exist and thats why there is only room for cheese.
the main problem is that scouting is too hard, adapting is too hard and defending is too hard
sc1:
2gate robo > 2fac
2fac > 1gate nexus
1gate nexus > siege fe
siege fe > 2gate robo
it was possible to scout each other and it was possible to comeback from a disadvantage. hell anything was possible in sc1 thats how it was so brilliant. in sc2 u cant do shit in theory and if u disagree i guess u just didnt play enough games or analyse enough to find this out :<
How many years did it take for the safe builds to develop?
In 2001 it was considered a strong play to 9 pool into sunken rushing your opponent. That was STANDARD.
SC2 is a month old, it takes a lot of experimentation to develop these safe "standard" builds. So until then, we're going to see a lot of crazy 'cheese' and such.
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On April 16 2010 00:56 Boardin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2010 00:51 MorroW wrote:On April 16 2010 00:46 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:Agreed, this is starting to get rediculous. People are taking this new strat and applying a kind of skrutiny (knowing that they already have egg on their face for saying NOTHING could beat immo openers) that is halarious. "Can't use it if the toss knows it's coming." Seriously? On April 16 2010 00:44 MorroW wrote:
sc1 worked in the way that it was possible to scout and it was possible to react to it
sc2 works in the way that u make a decision and later on u find out if ur ahead or not, theres not alot of room for scout and respond in sc2
sc1 was a triangle of cheese, safe and abusive where cheese would beat abusive which would beat safe and safe would stop cheese.
in sc2 u have cheese cheese and cheese. if there is no safe build it wont be near possible to make an abusive build that beats the safe build since it doesnt exist and thats why there is only room for cheese.
the main problem is that scouting is too hard, adapting is too hard and defending is too hard What makes scouting hard? You've got arguably the best scouting tool in the early game (scan), which admittedly competes for econ with the mule, but that doesn't make it un-useable. Combined with an scv scout, i'm not sure how you could find scouting a toss hard. It's not like they block ramps vs. terran, lol. you dont get it but thats fine how many games have u played? how far have u come in various tournaments? im starting to get annoyed at ppl questioning the superior players and to answer ur question sorry i cant, its too complex and u have to get to this to understand urself Questioning superior players? LOL. We are trying to provide input into the situation. Just because you are a good player doesn't mean you shouldn't be questioned at this point in the beta. Great mechanics/knowledge of a 2-3 builds versus each race will take you very far in nearly every tourney. It's not like every superior player is an expert in metagame/strategy and should not be questioned. Especially with a game still so immature from a strategy standpoint If you want to only talk to the top 10 players then this probably isn't the place
i dont come here to learn and i dont come here to argue
i come here to say whats really up and its up to u to trust me or not
hopefully ull trust and learn it urself and by then we - as a community can start these threads where everyone agrees on the issues so blizzard can patch things up faster
im pretty sure demuslim doesnt come here to ask for ur advise or if hes missing something. hes best european terran along with lucifron for crying out loud. if we wanna learn we discuss and learn we talk to each other over bnet. we make the posts here along with many other good players so we can get the word rolling so blizzard can fix stuff.
demuslim are just making the builds u write here so he can come back and say it didnt work, he already knew it didnt work and im pretty sure he already tried everything. he wont learn from u silver, wait platinum sorry, who tell him what to do. if that would be the case he wouldnt be able to win tournaments like he is
i think its pretty foolish to be bming or making fun of high level players who come here and "whine" when infact its ppl like us who help to spread the world and then blizzard reads and patches up.
im not trying to make my race better so i can win tournaments and get money. if i wanted that id just start play zerg since the 1st week. i want sc2 to become balanced and challanging, i dont wanna have an excuse for losing i just wanna be able to say "i lost because of me". could do that in sc1 and it was motivating to keep practice, now many arent practicing alot because they say to themself after a game "i lost because of imba and luck". its not very fun to play sc2 atm and all im trying to do here is speed up the phase beta stage goes so i can start blaming myself rather than the game when i lose like i could with sc1
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On April 16 2010 01:26 MorroW wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2010 00:56 Boardin wrote:On April 16 2010 00:51 MorroW wrote:On April 16 2010 00:46 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:Agreed, this is starting to get rediculous. People are taking this new strat and applying a kind of skrutiny (knowing that they already have egg on their face for saying NOTHING could beat immo openers) that is halarious. "Can't use it if the toss knows it's coming." Seriously? On April 16 2010 00:44 MorroW wrote:
sc1 worked in the way that it was possible to scout and it was possible to react to it
sc2 works in the way that u make a decision and later on u find out if ur ahead or not, theres not alot of room for scout and respond in sc2
sc1 was a triangle of cheese, safe and abusive where cheese would beat abusive which would beat safe and safe would stop cheese.
in sc2 u have cheese cheese and cheese. if there is no safe build it wont be near possible to make an abusive build that beats the safe build since it doesnt exist and thats why there is only room for cheese.
the main problem is that scouting is too hard, adapting is too hard and defending is too hard What makes scouting hard? You've got arguably the best scouting tool in the early game (scan), which admittedly competes for econ with the mule, but that doesn't make it un-useable. Combined with an scv scout, i'm not sure how you could find scouting a toss hard. It's not like they block ramps vs. terran, lol. you dont get it but thats fine how many games have u played? how far have u come in various tournaments? im starting to get annoyed at ppl questioning the superior players and to answer ur question sorry i cant, its too complex and u have to get to this to understand urself Questioning superior players? LOL. We are trying to provide input into the situation. Just because you are a good player doesn't mean you shouldn't be questioned at this point in the beta. Great mechanics/knowledge of a 2-3 builds versus each race will take you very far in nearly every tourney. It's not like every superior player is an expert in metagame/strategy and should not be questioned. Especially with a game still so immature from a strategy standpoint If you want to only talk to the top 10 players then this probably isn't the place i dont come here to learn and i dont come here to argue i come here to say whats really up and its up to u to trust me or not hopefully ull trust and learn it urself and by then we - as a community can start these threads where everyone agrees on the issues so blizzard can patch things up faster im pretty sure demuslim doesnt come here to ask for ur advise or if hes missing something. hes best european terran along with lucifron for crying out loud. if we wanna learn we discuss and learn we talk to each other over bnet. we make the posts here along with many other good players so we can get the word rolling so blizzard can fix stuff. demuslim are just making the builds u write here so he can come back and say it didnt work, he already knew it didnt work and im pretty sure he already tried everything. he wont learn from u silver, wait platinum sorry, who tell him what to do. if that would be the case he wouldnt be able to win tournaments like he is i think its pretty foolish to be bming or making fun of high level players who come here and "whine" when infact its ppl like us who help to spread the world and then blizzard reads and patches up. im not trying to make my race better so i can win tournaments and get money. if i wanted that id just start play zerg since the 1st week. i want sc2 to become balanced and challanging, i dont wanna have an excuse for losing i just wanna be able to say "i lost because of me". could do that in sc1 and it was motivating to keep practice, now many arent practicing alot because they say to themself after a game "i lost because of imba and luck". its not very fun to play sc2 atm and all im trying to do here is speed up the phase beta stage goes so i can start blaming myself rather than the game when i lose like i could with sc1
i do trust that in your experience 1 gate robo is extermely strong and dominates a lot of terran builds. I know demuslim is a great player, i wont argue that, far better than me... but he, like everyone else. Is missing something
You said your not here to learn.. thats pretty foolish IMO... always more to learn
I understand that there are aspects of the game that need fixing, that certain matchups haveterran basically coinflipping between two builds guessing what P is doing. Blizz may come in and nerf the shit out of somethign P is doing.... I wouldn't complain as I trust their decisions. But for now people complaining that there is no safe build is not an issue. The inability to adapt and perfect builts to transition with what P is doing is something that would be alarming. But at this point I find it hard to believe that Terran have exhausted all options.. there just hasn't been enough time for all the "good players" to perfect builds....
I think back to the timing push that was so popular from Terran in SC1. It took a long time for P to leearn that he had to put goons outside his base and try to pick off units to delay the Terran push to stop it. Things like that take a long long time to figure out... and this patch has barely been out what? 2 weeks?
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On April 16 2010 01:25 PanzerDragoon wrote:
How many years did it take for the safe builds to develop?
In 2001 it was considered a strong play to 9 pool into sunken rushing your opponent. That was STANDARD.
SC2 is a month old, it takes a lot of experimentation to develop these safe "standard" builds. So until then, we're going to see a lot of crazy 'cheese' and such.
pls do not compare sc2 to scbw in terms of strats / metagame development, 1 week in sc2 is like 1 year in scbw, nobody knew how to play RTS games back then, now everyone is REALLY good and actually trying to learn the game properly. Also if all of the top players in europe, strelok / morrow demuslim are saying that tvp is broken and no matter what they do ( im sure they all play A LOT more than you and have tried every possible combination of builds / units that they could think of before posting here ) then you shouldn't argue with them and make retarded arguments because you are losing to terrans in your silver league. The fact is that at the highest levels on every server, P is crushing T at the moment, and there is nothing T can do about it until the game gets patched. Anyone who cries and says "OMG EMP IS IMBALANCED" needs to stfu and realize that they are only losing because they are bad ;(
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We're talking about earlygame where the options are very limited and distinct. There are very few permutations at this point and eventually you're going to exhaust them all. To make the game balanced more than 1 permutation has to be viable. Every build has a weakness and if only 1 build is viable then it's not viable because people will continually exploit its weaknesses. Right now we've found one build which seems to be ok, which is this 4 rax FE. However, until we find another build that actually does quite well vs a variety of threats 4 rax FE isn't viable because everyone will just open to counter it as soon as it's spotted. It's not a build you can hide so there's no way to keep protoss in the dark.
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Time to be patronizing:
Hey protoss wanna know how to stop 6 proxy rax 6 refinery 7 bunker rush?
TECH TO VOID RAYS LOL (remember when you told me all I needed to do to stop a gateway rush w/ immos was tech to fast banshees?)
Mod edit - time to be temp banned, too.
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Why not try hitting the Protoss with some quick bio and a bunker? If they're getting a Robo Fac out THAT quick, they're going to have absolutely jack diddly to defend themselves with. Saw that in one of those Korean games someone posted of a TvP on Scrap Station (can't remember if it was this thread or the other one). Seemed unorthodox, but just occurred to me that might be the counter that the dude came up with.
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On April 16 2010 02:03 Bibdy wrote:
Why not try hitting the Protoss with some quick bio and a bunker? If they're getting a Robo Fac out THAT quick, they're going to have absolutely jack diddly to defend themselves with. Saw that in one of those Korean games someone posted of a TvP on Scrap Station (can't remember if it was this thread or the other one). Seemed unorthodox, but just occurred to me that might be the counter that the dude came up with.
i dont think this is very viable. I dont feel vulnerable at all when i go fast robo. I think for T to exploit this in the manner you say they would have to all-inthemselves by cutting scv's and/or proxy
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On April 16 2010 02:03 Bibdy wrote:
Why not try hitting the Protoss with some quick bio and a bunker? If they're getting a Robo Fac out THAT quick, they're going to have absolutely jack diddly to defend themselves with. Saw that in one of those Korean games someone posted of a TvP on Scrap Station (can't remember if it was this thread or the other one). Seemed unorthodox, but just occurred to me that might be the counter that the dude came up with.
If by bio you mean marine/marauder, sadly that won't work. Whereas zealots & stalkers are good against terran early-game, marines & marauders are NOT good against toss early game. They need upgrades to be effective, unlike zealot/sentry/stalker which are all good out of the box without any upgrades, this is especially true of sentries. (obviously they are better when they do get upgrades, but my point is M&M are not that good without upgrades). I don't see it working, although I suppose a bunker could help, I'm not discouting it completely but it doesn't seem very feasible.
The only barracks unit that is good without any upgrades is reaper, and toss can CB a stalker without changing their 1gate robo build hardly at all, meaning if terran wants to do damage with reapers they need to choose a build at the beginning of the game that is specifically tailored for getting fast reapers, usually 8rax proxy reapers or 10 rax proxy reapers.
Any type of 1base bio build requires you to remain in base until upgrades are finished, or else you will die. And once upgrades are finished, immortals are on the field, forcing you to remain in-base for even longer while you get ghosts. Zealots are too strong v marauders without slow, and sentries are too strong against marines without mass numbers or shields.
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On April 16 2010 00:48 Boardin wrote:
You can stay scouting until he gets a stalker up. He should have started his robo by then and you know that hes getting it. Scan once more about 1:30 later and you'll know how many gates/if immortal is producing.
It is also impossible for the Protoss to hide their tech? Easiest counter in the world to waste a scan IMO. Sure you risk a bit, but do you honestly believe a scan covers all the area of a starting location or even the expo as well?
There is only one use of Chrono Boost atm, but what would happen to Protoss if they "had to" use it for defense / scouting? Once Warp Gate kicks in the Protoss can replenish their cannon fodder really fast while Terrans have to stick with what they have. In a war of attrition Terrans have lost.
As an outsider I would like to have the players who say "youre not trying hard enough" or "you should do it differently" to make precise suggestions as to what the struggling players need to change. DeMuslim didnt come here to whine about it, but to ask for help / ideas and telling him "you dont try hard enough" isnt helping.
SC2 seems highly (maybe too much?) dependant upon the map IMO, so that information needs to be figured in as well.
- backdoor maps are different from one-entrance maps
- maps with islands offer different strategies than those without them
- bases with loong cliffs are more vulnerable against Stalker-blink plus Colossus attacks
- ...
Maybe trying to identify the worst maps for the matchup might help pinpointing the problem more and giving a solution?
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yes you are right, if p is going dts/voidray (which arent even allin) they can hide them where terran isnt going to scan easily, also there isn't a huge change in terran's unit composition depending on what p is going, people are saying "GET GHOST" if p goes immortal, but all they have to do if you go ghost is sit on top of their ramp and spread out their units and tech to colossus, then your starport will be SEVERELY delayed because of the gas cost of ghost + mm upgrades =X
if the p is smart, everything the T does is easily beaten lol
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On April 16 2010 02:37 Rabiator wrote:
As an outsider I would like to have the players who say "youre not trying hard enough" or "you should do it differently" to make precise suggestions as to what the struggling players need to change. DeMuslim didnt come here to whine about it, but to ask for help / ideas and telling him "you dont try hard enough" isnt helping.
Except I don't think anyone is expressedly stating "you aren't trying," but we really have no way of knowing exactly what is being utilized with the complete absence of replays as evidence.
We would tell any run-of-the-mill copper leaguer "post your replays," if he was pointing out how X or Y strat was impossible as Z race. Why are we content to just sit back and play the forum debate game on this instead of posting replays and getting tangible evidence for further discussion?
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On April 16 2010 01:47 duckhunt wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2010 01:25 PanzerDragoon wrote:
How many years did it take for the safe builds to develop?
In 2001 it was considered a strong play to 9 pool into sunken rushing your opponent. That was STANDARD.
SC2 is a month old, it takes a lot of experimentation to develop these safe "standard" builds. So until then, we're going to see a lot of crazy 'cheese' and such. pls do not compare sc2 to scbw in terms of strats / metagame development, 1 week in sc2 is like 1 year in scbw, nobody knew how to play RTS games back then, now everyone is REALLY good and actually trying to learn the game properly. Also if all of the top players in europe, strelok / morrow demuslim are saying that tvp is broken and no matter what they do ( im sure they all play A LOT more than you and have tried every possible combination of builds / units that they could think of before posting here ) then you shouldn't argue with them and make retarded arguments because you are losing to terrans in your silver league. The fact is that at the highest levels on every server, P is crushing T at the moment, and there is nothing T can do about it until the game gets patched. Anyone who cries and says "OMG EMP IS IMBALANCED" needs to stfu and realize that they are only losing because they are bad ;(
Anyone collected these stats, is there a link to see how in platinum or high platinum P beats T consistently ? Or sum up all the post patch 8 tournaments ?
After all these pages i have to agree this matchup could be better balanced, but i'm not sure what needs to be changed. Slower immortal building time, higher energy cost for ff and gs, reduce banshee range, reduce immortal damage to buildings or make available an upgrade for it ?
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A top plat player here. A build I made that seems to have potential that I have been having mixed success with (as I've only played it like thrice so i need to get it down exactly) is...
(obviously much tweaking is needed)
2 rax(one tech lab) 2 fact UNSIEGED tanks/marines
tanks remain unsieged.
I think 2 rax should be enough for constant marine production for a while, adding another rax (or reactor) later on when you're more saturated. One rax should have a tech lab. Marine upgrade is suggested. You might need a bunker in the beginning if hes aggressive. And I usually don't open reaper in this case to save gas.
The gist is to keep the marines in front with the tanks in back. Tanks have further range than all other units. With focus fire and tank micro take down the immos quick, and then teh stalkers will be easily destroyed. Or maybe kill all the stalkers super fast first? haven't had enough time to test.
I can say this build easily defends the first immo push though. I think if i microd and macrod a bit better I'd have more than 50% wins with this build.
Oh and i usually end up getting a starport and raven fairly quick since i almost expect dts every game now.
The reason this seems to work is that unsieged tanks have the highest range/dps of all the ground units, with a fast attack that is even nifty against immortals. IF the toss doesn't specifially target your tanks, hes screwed. If he does you can micro them. I usually attack after 4 tanks or so, but you can easily safely expand.
Please more people test this build, as I have limited time to play, and get back to me. Thanks, and good luck!
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I tested it a few times. Failed hardcore. Maybe I was doing it wrong. I'm a perfect player so probably not.
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On April 16 2010 03:08 JTPROG wrote:
A top plat player here. A build I made that seems to have potential that I have been having mixed success with (as I've only played it like thrice so i need to get it down exactly) is...
(obviously much tweaking is needed)
2 rax(one tech lab) 2 fact UNSIEGED tanks/marines
tanks remain unsieged.
I think 2 rax should be enough for constant marine production for a while, adding another rax (or reactor) later on when you're more saturated. One rax should have a tech lab. Marine upgrade is suggested. You might need a bunker in the beginning if hes aggressive. And I usually don't open reaper in this case to save gas.
The gist is to keep the marines in front with the tanks in back. Tanks have further range than all other units. With focus fire and tank micro take down the immos quick, and then teh stalkers will be easily destroyed. Or maybe kill all the stalkers super fast first? haven't had enough time to test.
I can say this build easily defends the first immo push though. I think if i microd and macrod a bit better I'd have more than 50% wins with this build.
Oh and i usually end up getting a starport and raven fairly quick since i almost expect dts every game now.
The reason this seems to work is that unsieged tanks have the highest range/dps of all the ground units, with a fast attack that is even nifty against immortals. IF the toss doesn't specifially target your tanks, hes screwed. If he does you can micro them. I usually attack after 4 tanks or so, but you can easily safely expand.
Please more people test this build, as I have limited time to play, and get back to me. Thanks, and good luck!
This is similar to a build I've tried before, but I always got stomped by zealots/immortals/sentries. Guardian shield makes marines do half what they should in damage. Zealots absorb tank hits quite well. Force Field keeps you from microing backwards and just in general messes up your formations. Immortals can charge forward and slaughter your tanks because if you're not shooting the zealots all your marines will die quite quickly.
Levin did this to me in craftcup, actually with fast chargelots and I don't even think any sentries and I got creamed, so adding in sentries will make this style ineffective. The fact is, without EMP, immortals are just too good.
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On April 16 2010 03:12 Floophead_III wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2010 03:08 JTPROG wrote:
A top plat player here. A build I made that seems to have potential that I have been having mixed success with (as I've only played it like thrice so i need to get it down exactly) is...
(obviously much tweaking is needed)
2 rax(one tech lab) 2 fact UNSIEGED tanks/marines
tanks remain unsieged.
I think 2 rax should be enough for constant marine production for a while, adding another rax (or reactor) later on when you're more saturated. One rax should have a tech lab. Marine upgrade is suggested. You might need a bunker in the beginning if hes aggressive. And I usually don't open reaper in this case to save gas.
The gist is to keep the marines in front with the tanks in back. Tanks have further range than all other units. With focus fire and tank micro take down the immos quick, and then teh stalkers will be easily destroyed. Or maybe kill all the stalkers super fast first? haven't had enough time to test.
I can say this build easily defends the first immo push though. I think if i microd and macrod a bit better I'd have more than 50% wins with this build.
Oh and i usually end up getting a starport and raven fairly quick since i almost expect dts every game now.
The reason this seems to work is that unsieged tanks have the highest range/dps of all the ground units, with a fast attack that is even nifty against immortals. IF the toss doesn't specifially target your tanks, hes screwed. If he does you can micro them. I usually attack after 4 tanks or so, but you can easily safely expand.
Please more people test this build, as I have limited time to play, and get back to me. Thanks, and good luck! This is similar to a build I've tried before, but I always got stomped by zealots/immortals/sentries. Guardian shield makes marines do half what they should in damage. Zealots absorb tank hits quite well. Force Field keeps you from microing backwards and just in general messes up your formations. Immortals can charge forward and slaughter your tanks because if you're not shooting the zealots all your marines will die quite quickly. Levin did this to me in craftcup, actually with fast chargelots and I don't even think any sentries and I got creamed, so adding in sentries will make this style ineffective. The fact is, without EMP, immortals are just too good.
I still think the main problem is sentries, not immortals... sentries need to be nerfed pretty hard imo.
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Sentries break PvZ right now as well. I happen to agree with you on that.
Regardless, in the current state of the game I just don't think it's that viable. You NEED hellions to kill zealots. However, I think perhaps 1 fact hellions 1 fact tanks 2 rax marines might work, with hellion upgrade and marine shield. Ironically this is pretty much how I've been playing my 2 facts which as I've said are actually not that bad. I think perhaps I should try not going reactor on my 2nd fact and making a 2nd rax for more marines instead.
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On April 16 2010 03:18 Floophead_III wrote:
Sentries break PvZ right now as well. I happen to agree with you on that.
Regardless, in the current state of the game I just don't think it's that viable. You NEED hellions to kill zealots. However, I think perhaps 1 fact hellions 1 fact tanks 2 rax marines might work, with hellion upgrade and marine shield. Ironically this is pretty much how I've been playing my 2 facts which as I've said are actually not that bad. I think perhaps I should try not going reactor on my 2nd fact and making a 2nd rax for more marines instead.
well I think you can just modify the tank build to start producing hellions if you see him getting zlots, no? Might as well try the tank build first until scouting information says otherwise.
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I think people are missing the point of this thread. This is for Terran players, and some Protoss to create a viable strategy that isn't cheesy. We aren't asking for a quick win button. We don't care that straight marauders is not easy mode anymore because it was boring and stale to begin with.
Protoss players, please don't come in here and tell us to get EVERYTHING. We know we have to adapt and scout. We just don't know how to adapt. There are strats that just give you a pure advantage. For instance, the first time I encounted an Immortal Push+zealots I died pretty hard even with marines. The next time I prepared an EMP, but he only had 1 Immortal and many more stalkers. The last time I encountered Immortals, the player chose not to push at all and just expanded. After destroying all of my pushes, he obliterated me with a few colossus, immortals, and stalker blink. Now I definitely could've played better, but now do you see the dynamic of early robo fac?
I didn't come in here to prove that point though. I actually tried the marine/tank/banshee build on Metalopolis. I was at 9 and he was at 7. It went something like this. RAX>FACTORY>MARINES+RAX+STARPORT>MARINES+SP TECHLAB>BANSHEE>RAX RC>BANSHEE+BANSHEE HARASS>FAC TECHLAB>SIEGE
I think I had shield ups before stim, not too sure. I won the game right as I was transitioning to Marauder/ghost.
The guy went 3gate/robo and also tried to be cheeky by throwing a few DTs in the mix. Also choosing to expand while thinking he had me contained. Not the best player. The banshee harass forced him to go stalkers, and when I couldn't harass anymore I just used them for scouting and sent em back to my main force. Then I pushed out with 16marines/2-3tanks setting tanks ahead of his main force(8stalkers+random zlots) but in range of his base from the side of his cliff. Marines buffered. It made quick work of the stalkers and a colossus that just came out. The banshees spotted for me while I was raining fire on his base.
The Pros of this build was that:
1. Forces opponents to build a few stalkers
2. Opponent didn't know a tank push was coming. I had a neglible amound of tanks and only one fac, but many more barracks. Probably thought marine/marauder was coming.
3. Unlike other Terran options, less vulnerable to feedback.
Cons:
1. Weak against storm
I found it to be a stable build, but very inconclusive. The opponent wasn't good and the timing was terrible. I didn't encounter Immortals and even with that many marines they could possibly snipe my tanks. I did encounter HT but he didn't have storm ready. For this build to work I think it requires a transition to marauders/ghosts or at least ghosts with emp after the first push. I will try unsieged tanks later.
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@Floop/JT
So I've been playing around with the FE build a lot today. Found some interesting "key points".
Key point #1 it stops the immortal push fairly handedly!
Key point #2 most protoss can't scout for another 1-2 mins after this push fails.
Key point #3 most builds resulted in an opted expansion or colossi play
Key point #4 At the moment the push fails is the time to tech or to "finish" teching. I threw down a factory earlier rather than opting for a few marines and swapped to banshee tech immediately afterwords.
Why the tech swap was successful: The protoss at this point is massing immortals/zealots/sentries and a few stalkers to break any mnm ball you're buliding up. He sees what you have at your expo and mnm clicks in his head.
At this point you can easily punish him in 2 ways. You already have 4 rax down, tech to star ports and see what he has (can make ravens/medivacs for both choices). If you see a lot of ground punisher units continue banshee tech. If you see more stalker heavy it's a good idea to go MnM still.
As for the early non sieged tank I posted some replays earlier. It's a great idea in theory but in practice it falls short against several different types of protoss builds (e.g., immortal drops/warp gate timing pushes). I'm trying to develop some sort of "flash" build. Let me explain:
You get that really quick tank with no siege and with your rax you have a reactor constantly pumping marines. Here's where I'm trying to decide what to do differently: swap the factory with the rax and pump marauders/hellions. Hellions are great for harass especially early on you can really poke around his base and find out a lot of information. Or continue to just pump marines from your rax and a few tanks from the factory for later siege support.
Just some thoughts. I'll play around with these some more and get back to you.
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more info on the 4rax fe pls.
when do you start your cc ,when to cut scv/rines for cc or the rax,when to get gas?
or do you just spam rines from 1 rax till you got excessive minerals,start cc and then get gas and rax whenever possible?
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Mara hellion is going to be weak to immortal drops just like pure mara. Also I think immortal push is not the strategy you'd ever want to use vs that style of FE. You should be able to scout no early gas which means only marines.
I think that indicates NOT to go immortal push. Stalker, fast coli, dt, even just a fast mass warpgate + prism could be quite scary. I want to see how the build deals with all sorts of stuff before it becomes what I could consider viable. If anyone wants to test with me floophead.legendary on US server. Add me/msg me!
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i dunno what the 4rax fe is. ppl has been talking about it like everyone should know what it is :< i doubt its any good tho
some replay of it would be really appreciated
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On April 16 2010 04:45 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:
more info on the 4rax fe pls.
when do you start your cc ,when to cut scv/rines for cc or the rax,when to get gas?
or do you just spam rines from 1 rax till you got excessive minerals,start cc and then get gas and rax whenever possible?
You want a build order?
Pump scvs/marines entire time
10 depot
12 rax
15~ OC
As soon as OC finishes you should be able to make an scv and a cc.
Keep pumping scvs/marines
450 minerals 3 rax.
Obviously keep building supply the whole time. Soon as cc lands in expansion I throw down a refinery in the main. 3 bunkers there at expo as the cc is going down, marines on ledge to help with extra defense. That's pretty much it. Wait for timing attack choose what tech you're going to do with further scouting information.
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I love how people that have no experience is giving us advice as if we havent tried those strats. I've been trying plenty of techs, all of them are succesfull depending on the map, and how aware is the protoss of what you're already doing. If the protoss knows what you're up to, you will most likely lose no matter what.
1. Reaper proxy rush. (Experience about 50 games on high US plat)
Pros. You can win the game very quickly.
Cons. Its an all-in tech, hard to come back from if you dont win in the first 5 minutes.
Depending on how big the distance in the map is, the first (or second in LT, Kulas) scv you get goes to a smart location (where they cant spot you, and you can easly cliff your way into their base) to build your barracks.
At 9 scv count you stop scv production, and at that point exactly when your SCV arrieves to their destined location, will have 150 minerals to build your barracks.
Get the extractor
Build an scv (you have 10 count now)
Build a supply depot
Get the tech lab
Another SCV (11)
Build a reaper, get in, if you see early cybernetics the 2nd unit you get is a marauder... DONT LOSE THE REAPER, if he gets a zealot prioritize killing the zealot over probes so you can gang bang the first stalker with 1 marauder / reaper. After that keep getting marauders and avoid getting supply blocked. If the protoss only gets zealots then just continue producing reapers untill you just win.
Replays
http://www.mediafire.com/?kjlmtytmmjj
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On April 16 2010 05:03 ReneFlores wrote:
I love how people that have no experience is giving us advice as if we havent tried those strats. I've been trying plenty of techs, all of them are succesfull depending on the map, and how aware is the protoss of what you're already doing. If the protoss knows what you're up to, you will most likely lose no matter what.
Post some of those replays then.
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2. 1 Rack fast expo into heavy bio push.
Pros. Depending on the map, you can completly run over the protoss.
Cons. Its very map dependant, you need to scout well as un scouted colossi could beat you up.
You get SCV's untill you have 10.
As soon as you get minerals, get the barracks
Another SCV
Supply Depot
The Barracks and the depot will finish at the same time.
Get orbital command and marine at the same time
Continue pumping marines and scvs
Expo as soon as you have minerals
Build bunkers, 3-4 you cant go safe on this or they will just try to break in
your 2nd barrack gets a reactor
Pump bio like crazy, come out when you feel you have the advantage and crush him.
Replays:
http://www.mediafire.com/?dollxmgyttm (Vs orb and bigt)
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And to incontrol, i though you were smarter man, those steroids are hitting your moods arent they?, you seem to be getting enraged by Terrans wanting to Win or Lose a fair match.
I think the arguments Demuslim, Morrow, Jinro and others are very fair, the real problem with Terran vs Protoss is that, protoss counters every and each terran unit with their own.
Marines = countered by sentrys, colossi. They come out slow at the beggining and need stympack or shields and marauder tanking to really be usefull.
Marauders = Without slow they cant kite at all as stalkers run faster, die extremly fast to Immortals.
Reapers = Easly killed by the just as fast - high range stalker.
Ghots = Very gas dependant, if you get ghost basically you have to cut marauder production, its impossible to do both at the early game.
Helions = Are just good at killing probes and zealot walls, die easly vs stalkers
Tanks = Completly useless vs immortals, die fast, are expensive and heavy on supply.
Thors = same as above, very slow and are easly kitted / killed. unless you're already on the protoss base you will find yourself alot of issues while trying to move out.
Vikings = Die very fast vs stalkers
Banshees = This little fellas are good, but if this is scouted with an observer blinking stalkers can take care of this fairly easy.
Medivak = Can get instakilled by feedback but they're good for movility, and can be great at using the movility disadvantage protoss has to just pack 5 medivaks full of units and destroy all hes got. just hit and run, hit and run.
Battle Cruisers = Easly countered by void rays.
We have no unit that really counters their, other than the movility which terran has alot of advantage over protoss, protoss army is just far superior in every way.
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i don't like fe'ing anymore,
2 rax tech lab with reactor hellion and just swarm him from there
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On April 16 2010 05:40 ReneFlores wrote:
And to incontrol, i though you were smarter man, those steroids are hitting your moods arent they?, you seem to be getting enraged by Terrans wanting to Win or Lose a fair match.
I think the arguments Demuslim, Morrow, Jinro and others are very fair, the real problem with Terran vs Protoss is that, protoss counters every and each terran unit with their own.
Marines = countered by sentrys, colossi. They come out slow at the beggining and need stympack or shields and marauder tanking to really be usefull.
Marauders = Without slow they cant kite at all as stalkers run faster, die extremly fast to Immortals.
Reapers = Easly killed by the just as fast - high range stalker.
Ghots = Very gas dependant, if you get ghost basically you have to cut marauder production, its impossible to do both at the early game.
Helions = Are just good at killing probes and zealot walls, die easly vs stalkers
Tanks = Completly useless vs immortals, die fast, are expensive and heavy on supply.
Thors = same as above, very slow and are easly kitted / killed. unless you're already on the protoss base you will find yourself alot of issues while trying to move out.
Vikings = Die very fast vs stalkers
Banshees = This little fellas are good, but if this is scouted with an observer blinking stalkers can take care of this fairly easy.
Medivak = Can get instakilled by feedback but they're good for movility, and can be great at using the movility disadvantage protoss has to just pack 5 medivaks full of units and destroy all hes got. just hit and run, hit and run.
Battle Cruisers = Easly countered by void rays.
We have no unit that really counters their, other than the movility which terran has alot of advantage over protoss, protoss army is just far superior in every way.
Probe = Easily countered by SCVs.
Zealots = Easily countered by Marauders, esp once slow is done. Also Hellions.
Stalkers = Easily countered by Marauders, tanks, BANSHEES when numbers are more than 3. Thors
Sentries = Easily countered by Marauders, Not to mention one ghost can EMP and drain a ton of energy from sentries grouped together.
Immortals = Countered by Marauders. Not to mention Ghosts with EMP.
Collosus = Countered by Vikings, turrets, banshees, Marauders if there is no meat shield. Thors
HT = Countered by ghosts EMP, snipe, or medivacs which heal faster than storm does damage.
DT = Countered by scans, Raven + any unit combo.
Void rays = Easily Countered by vikings, marines, turrets, Thors
Phoenix = I dont think phoenix's can do anything vs any terran unit honestly.
Carriers = Countered by vikings, EMP, BCs. Thors
Umm, what else am I missing??
My point being, you can NOT make an argument for every unit in a case by case basis, because every unit in the game has a counter if you are talking hypothetical. This is all meaningless.
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I find it funny that your counter list is so terribly wrong. I think that alone decimates the validity of your post =P
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Thats where you got it wrong, we dont just coutner everything protoss can do with marauders, the only reason we used to win with mass marauders was because of the early advantage they provided.
They're in no way superior to the protoss army, they die fast but tank good and kite well with Slow.
Medivaks dont heal faster than storm does damage, you're just talking out of your ass.
1 stalker beats 1 marauder, you can check it out. the stalker is faster and he can actually kite the marauder.
Zealots arent countered by marauders early either obviusly if you just mass zealots vs marauders you're gonna lose like a retard. im talking about unit composition here, and besides zealots are tanks for your army, they're supposed to soak hits while immortals and stalkers get the job done unharmed.
There is one reason why terran can never win TVP on late game, its because our army is inferior in every way.
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ok so 4rax fe is basically like my 1rax fe i used back in patch5< except u add 3 rax on 450 where i added 2 rax 150 and 150 then get the gas going
ive done this way before u did ur stuff, and my bo is even more solid and worked out bo-wise. i dont do it anymore because it doesnt work.
colosus rush owned it back then thats why i started making the gas faster, for the upgrades and marauders.
the nerf on marine build time came and now im 100% sure anything like this doesnt work
sure u might win some games and sure u might blindly beat some bos. but then again that doesnt mean its a solid scout and respond build if it can auto-die against something like a colosus rush. forget about the 4rax fe, its luck-based and not at all like siege expo in sc1, that wasnt revolved around luck so much
can u guys stop make ur silly lists plz, they r false :/ besides its more complicated than that. oh and btw ht has no counter vs terran, u always wanna have them in the battle field no matter what. ht and ghost r counters to each other, so it nullifies )
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On April 16 2010 06:02 MorroW wrote:
can u guys stop make ur silly lists plz, they r false :/ besides its more complicated than that. oh and btw ht has no counter vs terran, u always wanna have them in the battle field no matter what. ht and ghost r counters to each other, so it nullifies )
Thats where you got it wrong buddy, he list is to prove that our basic unit composition gets completly countered by regular protoss units. We used to win based on early advantage, now dont have an advantage at any point in the game vs protoss.
No unit we can make can give us the upperhand at any point in the game if the Protoss is scouting well / playing good, thats all im trying to say. This is specially caused by chrono boost, that allows you to get counter units extremly fast, like you're fighting against terran and you see he's got a marine heavy army, you can very easly - fast get a colossi, and get yourself back in the game.
For us to make that kind of switchs its impossible.
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On April 16 2010 06:11 p1ng wrote:
GZ at Demuslim vs Hasuobs.
Anyway, in my opinion you could see what a danger a 4-5 Gatepush is against the strat. Hasuobs just did some mistakes like bad positioning and not waiting for enough units to completly crush into it. Also going Robo later on.
Link?
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u still can win just need to gain huge advantage in early stage of the game (hi imba rushes from previous patches), but now when they are gone you have to hope that toss will make a mistake or cheese him with reaper or banshee
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On April 16 2010 05:54 ReneFlores wrote:
There is one reason why terran can never win TVP on late game, its because our army is inferior in every way.
I play terran, and this is not only wrong but inclines most everyone to ignore the rest of your post for making such a generalization.
If you always lose vs toss lategame its either because you are either making the wrong units or suck with ghosts, or very likely both.
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On April 16 2010 06:14 ReneFlores wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2010 06:02 MorroW wrote:
can u guys stop make ur silly lists plz, they r false :/ besides its more complicated than that. oh and btw ht has no counter vs terran, u always wanna have them in the battle field no matter what. ht and ghost r counters to each other, so it nullifies ) Thats where you got it wrong buddy, he list is to prove that our basic unit composition gets completly countered by regular protoss units. We used to win based on early advantage, now dont have an advantage at any point in the game vs protoss. No unit we can make can give us the upperhand at any point in the game if the Protoss is scouting well / playing good, thats all im trying to say. This is specially caused by chrono boost, that allows you to get counter units extremly fast, like you're fighting against terran and you see he's got a marine heavy army, you can very easly - fast get a colossi, and get yourself back in the game. For us to make that kind of switchs its impossible.
trying to claim that you have no counters to any protoss units seems like a good way to make a compelling argument and gain credibility. MMM army with stim will beat a mixed zeal/stalker/immortal army that is 20 more supply. Bio's strength is in numbers. Clearly collosus counters/ht counter that but its a game of timings/adapting. Listing every P unit and saying how bad they counter terran units is just silly and pointless.
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Its pointless to argue here, i just wanted to bring my 2c into the post, all i wanted to say has been already said, the match is broken gl hf.
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On April 16 2010 06:02 MorroW wrote:
ok so 4rax fe is basically like my 1rax fe i used back in patch5< except u add 3 rax on 450 where i added 2 rax 150 and 150 then get the gas going
ive done this way before u did ur stuff, and my bo is even more solid and worked out bo-wise. i dont do it anymore because it doesnt work.
colosus rush owned it back then thats why i started making the gas faster, for the upgrades and marauders.
the nerf on marine build time came and now im 100% sure anything like this doesnt work
sure u might win some games and sure u might blindly beat some bos. but then again that doesnt mean its a solid scout and respond build if it can auto-die against something like a colosus rush. forget about the 4rax fe, its luck-based and not at all like siege expo in sc1, that wasnt revolved around luck so much
can u guys stop make ur silly lists plz, they r false :/ besides its more complicated than that. oh and btw ht has no counter vs terran, u always wanna have them in the battle field no matter what. ht and ghost r counters to each other, so it nullifies )
Watch day 9 101. Will give u some examples of 4 rax.
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Btw i know its very gas heavy, but i wonder how effective an 8 reaper 4 marauder medivak drop push would be while you expand
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haha seeing how people cry about reaper rushes i see 50/50, 2x build time lab addon nerf comming, knowing blizzard they give us something irrelevant like tank reduced build time XDD
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RE: ReneFlores
I have tried the fast expand BO you suggested and I really like it! I have no idea how viable it is at top plat level, but I liked it. I'm usually reluctant to halt SCV production, but it makes sense as you will catch up easily with 2 mules.
What I especially like about it is that the Protoss is forced to either deal damage or stop and expand to catch up. With the heavy marine focus an obvious choice for counter is Collosus.
After surviving the Immortal timing attack I like to tech to Starport as I love that tech level and it offers so much utility to the ground army.
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I've done reaper rushes multiple times today and against a protoss who scouts it it''s not that hard to defend. It doesn't deserve a nerf lol
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On April 16 2010 06:52 lolreaper wrote:
haha seeing how people cry about reaper rushes i see 50/50, 2x build time lab addon nerf comming, knowing blizzard they give us something irrelevant like tank reduced build time XDD
lol ye..all the broneleaguers complaining about reapers screaming at the top of their lungs when infact its just an annoyance at best...and completly irrelevant past 5minutes in the game.
watched the demuslim vs hasuobs game on lost temple where demuslim used the 4 rax FE, hasuobs did get a late immortal and sacrificed many units early game, and still it was way to close. also he expanded himself, the game would have been over so much faster had he just made units and moved on demuslims base I think.. I dont really see this 4 rax FE working to well honestly.
I have tried it some but not against A-level protosses yet, I am eager too tho...and I will not say for sure its bad until I give it some more practice.
In my attempts the protoss hasnt really kept pressure on me allowing me to techlab-up and get mass marauders out quickly, and then its gg if Im two basing vs his one base, even if he has immortals.
but there is a pretty huge window in which he can roll ove you with his first few immortals and gateway units even with 3 bunkers.
I rly disslike mass rines vs protoss too, as one lone sentry with guardian shield can cut their damage output in 1/3 ...that is so huge it blows my mind. add to this that sentry requires NO TECH just a gateway and any protoss that is not a retard will always have atleast one sentry in his army.. they are just to good not to have.
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Demuslim, I love you for trying the build out. Thank you so much. Good job winning.
Also, I think Demuslim could have made the tech switch to Marauders a bit faster though. If he had the Marauders out sooner, I don't think Hasuobs could have pressured him that much.
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On April 16 2010 07:10 Prozen wrote:Demuslim, I love you for trying the build out. Thank you so much. Good job winning. Also, I think Demuslim could have made the tech switch to Marauders a bit faster though. If he had the Marauders out sooner, I don't think Hasuobs could have pressured him that much.
Glad he worked out something instead of whining 
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http://www.filefront.com/16136177/Mente FE Builds.rar
Here's some replays the last one being the first time I tried it. All different games with practically the same builds and some different attempts at transition (lul bcs).
I think I was in a "fairly" solid position on most of the games. Admittedly I could have probably done a lot better with some better unit compositions here and there.
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Well, i didn't make this thread to just whine about protoss - wanted to hear some thoughts about it .
So i took some strats literally right from this thread and played them - thanks! ^^
Although on a serious note, both strategies i did worked out great because of certain things the protoss did which is to take note of:
Game 1 - 6 rax 6 refinery vs 12 gateway - if you do the 10 pylon 10 gateway it's alot less effective - and he bought a sentry to fend off the reapers instead of a stalker meaning gg (reapers kill sentrys easily)
Game 2 - he scouted the wrong way so he saw my base last, meaning he didn't know what i was doing until it was abit too late - quite unlucky for him, and i dare say if he played this again he wouldn't go 2-3 gateway rush and rather tech up to collosus/HT's with an expo.
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Well its clear that you guys wont be persuaded to listen to anything other than your illusions of thinking Terran is so terrible, so its pointless for anyone to even reason with you.
All I can say is I hope to god to meet more of you terrans who are going marine/tank vs protoss in ladder like Flophead. That will be an easy win for sure. Since you know, Protoss is the most imbalanced race ever, skill has nothing to do with it.
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Good to see some of the suggestions worked out.
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On April 16 2010 09:03 Skyze wrote:
Well its clear that you guys wont be persuaded to listen to anything other than your illusions of thinking Terran is so terrible, so its pointless for anyone to even reason with you.
All I can say is I hope to god to meet more of you terrans who are going marine/tank vs protoss in ladder like Flophead. That will be an easy win for sure. Since you know, Protoss is the most imbalanced race ever, skill has nothing to do with it.
Marine/tank was my attempt at gaining earlygame control without going instant ghosts due to the flaws in going fast ghost/tank vs mass gateway play. I don't believe either is viable right now, at least with 1 factory.
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So, I just tried this build, and from what I can gather, this Terran dude did everything right:
http://www.mediafire.com/?5miiwngxtww
His only fatal flaw was not waiting like 15-20 seconds for Stim to research before attacking. Had he waited for it he would have rolled all over me. He even had a super-fast Ghost for the first attack and I thought I was done for at that moment.
What's interesting from watching the replay in super slo-mo, a Marauder hitting an Immortal, with Guardian Shield up, only does 8 damage to the shields.
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Funny to see Day9 cover your game DeMuslim. From watching it I know 100% that fast colossus + warp prism + warpgates would just dismantle that. There's no way you can kill zealot + colossus in your main. I don't think it's viable if scouted. The only reason that worked is because protoss didn't scout it and played really oddly (expo at 12 wtf was that?) It might be viable in the way that 1 rax FE in BW is viable which is a counter to a particular style of play. I do not believe it is viable as standard play though. =/
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how viable is early eng +1 weapon + stimpack on marines on small maps, anyone want to test this with me?
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On April 16 2010 11:56 Bibdy wrote:So, I just tried this build, and from what I can gather, this Terran dude did everything right: http://www.mediafire.com/?5miiwngxtwwHis only fatal flaw was not waiting like 15-20 seconds for Stim to research before attacking. Had he waited for it he would have rolled all over me. He even had a super-fast Ghost for the first attack and I thought I was done for at that moment. What's interesting from watching the replay in super slo-mo, a Marauder hitting an Immortal, with Guardian Shield up, only does 8 damage to the shields.
Here's the thing about this game though - your first hit on his ramp was not necessary - you could have camped outside his base and fanned out in a nice firing arc and spreading out to minimize EMP while warping in a sentry from your proxy pylon to forcefield him if he tries to leave. As played, you ran almost in a straight line up his ramp and lost a partially damaged stalker instantly. That's what gave him a window to counterattack, and set up that stim possibility you mention.
Then you expand, and even given the very questionable first attack that cost you a good amount of units, and 400 minerals invested in a nexus, you still hold off his counterattack. Things seem way out of whack here.
I'm not trying to be harsh though, sorry if I'm coming off harsh or abrasive here. Reps being posted are good, this thread needs more reps from both perspectives, so thanks for that.
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LZGamer pulled off the 4rax FE in game 2 against Mirhi in tonight's ITL. Mirhi reads the build perfectly and rushes collo, LZ unluckily misses collo tech with 2x scans - but still breaks even in the first fight trading most of bio army for 3x collo and then crushes Mirhi in the 2nd battle with vikings in play.
That said there seemed like a bit of skill differential between LZ and Mirhi (mismicro'd collo, supply blocked for a long time, lack of pressure with initial collo, etc.). I mean I've beaten Mirhi before in ladder and am no where near LZGamer skill level. I hope Drewbie tries the build vs Win next!
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On April 16 2010 13:03 Hold-Lurker wrote:
LZGamer pulled off the 4rax FE in game 2 against Mirhi in tonight's ITL. Mirhi reads the build perfectly and rushes collo, LZ unluckily misses collo tech with 2x scans - but still breaks even in the first fight trading most of bio army for 3x collo and then crushes Mirhi in the 2nd battle with vikings in play.
That said there seemed like a bit of skill differential between LZ and Mirhi (mismicro'd collo, supply blocked for a long time, lack of pressure with initial collo, etc.). I mean I've beaten Mirhi before in ladder and am no where near LZGamer skill level. I hope Drewbie tries the build vs Win next!
For irony, I was playing the build vs mirhi in a game before that one. I was pretty even with some pretty bad force control and really no experience with the build at all, so I do think if it's not punished it puts you in a very nice position midgame. I do think it's punishable though. I also think that it pretty much gives protoss a free trip to templarville if they want to just get storms asap. I think you might have an eco advantage but you will be massively behind in tech.
In short, I was surprised at the effectiveness of the build since I thought it'd just die entirely.
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I'd agree mihiri was out-played, but i really don't see the gaping flaws in the build you suggest. Post your replay floop.
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On April 16 2010 12:48 BigOleDonkey wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2010 11:56 Bibdy wrote:So, I just tried this build, and from what I can gather, this Terran dude did everything right: http://www.mediafire.com/?5miiwngxtwwHis only fatal flaw was not waiting like 15-20 seconds for Stim to research before attacking. Had he waited for it he would have rolled all over me. He even had a super-fast Ghost for the first attack and I thought I was done for at that moment. What's interesting from watching the replay in super slo-mo, a Marauder hitting an Immortal, with Guardian Shield up, only does 8 damage to the shields. Here's the thing about this game though - your first hit on his ramp was not necessary - you could have camped outside his base and fanned out in a nice firing arc and spreading out to minimize EMP while warping in a sentry from your proxy pylon to forcefield him if he tries to leave. As played, you ran almost in a straight line up his ramp and lost a partially damaged stalker instantly. That's what gave him a window to counterattack, and set up that stim possibility you mention. Then you expand, and even given the very questionable first attack that cost you a good amount of units, and 400 minerals invested in a nexus, you still hold off his counterattack. Things seem way out of whack here. I'm not trying to be harsh though, sorry if I'm coming off harsh or abrasive here. Reps being posted are good, this thread needs more reps from both perspectives, so thanks for that.
Well, according to what people are saying about this build, apparently just waltzing up his ramp right there would be a surefire win, so I wanted to test the theory I certainly wasn't expecting that Ghost.
I can see why Terrans dread it, with Stalkers and Immortals sitting out there with a Sentry ready to FF half of your army at the bottom of the ramp.
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Stalker/Immortal is ridiculously powerful. Stalkers need to be changed back to their goon style rather than good against everything style. Immortals need their damage bonus changed and/or shields need to be researched. Buildings need to have no type.
I'll be the first to admit when I get outplayed... but recently it's pretty obvious that the only time I win v P that goes Stalker/Immortal is when they are far worse than me. Anyone even close to my skill level can just a-move and win.
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On April 16 2010 14:29 oxxo wrote:
Stalker/Immortal is ridiculously powerful. Stalkers need to be changed back to their goon style rather than good against everything style. Immortals need their damage bonus changed and/or shields need to be researched. Buildings need to have no type.
I'll be the first to admit when I get outplayed... but recently it's pretty obvious that the only time I win v P that goes Stalker/Immortal is when they are far worse than me. Anyone even close to my skill level can just a-move and win.
You should definitely read the rest of the thread.
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Yeah why is this thread still going strong with the nerf calls when it's already shown that that 4 rax fast expand works very well?^^; Someone should've closed this thing when it resolved the issue. Now it's burrowed amidst screams for nerfs of random units.
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On April 16 2010 14:36 Feefee wrote:
Yeah why is this thread still going strong with the nerf calls when it's already shown that that 4 rax fast expand works very well?^^; Someone should've closed this thing when it resolved the issue. Now it's burrowed amidst screams for nerfs of random units.
Imho it doesnt work well.
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my only problem in this matchup (im P) is that most of the time i cant scout if he is going reaper or MnM timing push or FE.
most of the time i lose to reaper since i cant get stalkers out in time when i thought it is an mnm psuh ... also if he went 2~3 reapers and mass marines, with a decent micro marine and take out stalkers no problem T__T
1 more thing is that i dont know when is a good time to switch between Immo to colo during mid game and when should i get zealot leg upgrade...
another thinking is that its hard to use up all the corno boots when u switch to colo and slow down the gates production =.=... i tried to use them on upgrade but after 3rd base, they stack up a lot T__T
currently fighting the mid-range of gold league so hope gosu-people can help me :D (weird, rarely see a zerg :-?)
edit: @terran user: getting ghost early and mix them with handfull of MnM can rape any P army but u hv to emp precisely :D
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On April 16 2010 14:29 oxxo wrote:
Stalker/Immortal is ridiculously powerful. Stalkers need to be changed back to their goon style rather than good against everything style. Immortals need their damage bonus changed and/or shields need to be researched. Buildings need to have no type.
I'll be the first to admit when I get outplayed... but recently it's pretty obvious that the only time I win v P that goes Stalker/Immortal is when they are far worse than me. Anyone even close to my skill level can just a-move and win.
hahahaha you're funny. you must be like the only guy on TL who thinks that stalkers are "good against everything" x]]]
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On April 16 2010 15:26 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2010 14:29 oxxo wrote:
Stalker/Immortal is ridiculously powerful. Stalkers need to be changed back to their goon style rather than good against everything style. Immortals need their damage bonus changed and/or shields need to be researched. Buildings need to have no type.
I'll be the first to admit when I get outplayed... but recently it's pretty obvious that the only time I win v P that goes Stalker/Immortal is when they are far worse than me. Anyone even close to my skill level can just a-move and win. hahahaha you're funny. you must be like the only guy on TL who thinks that stalkers are "good against everything" x]]]
They aren't. But they are decent against most. Nothing like goons. There was no reason for them to move away from being good vs armored and meh vs others.
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On April 16 2010 15:21 NB wrote:my only problem in this matchup (im P) is that most of the time i cant scout if he is going reaper or MnM timing push or FE. most of the time i lose to reaper since i cant get stalkers out in time when i thought it is an mnm psuh ... also if he went 2~3 reapers and mass marines, with a decent micro marine and take out stalkers no problem T__T 1 more thing is that i dont know when is a good time to switch between Immo to colo during mid game and when should i get zealot leg upgrade... another thinking is that its hard to use up all the corno boots when u switch to colo and slow down the gates production =.=... i tried to use them on upgrade but after 3rd base, they stack up a lot T__T currently fighting the mid-range of gold league so hope gosu-people can help me :D (weird, rarely see a zerg :-?) edit: @terran user: getting ghost early and mix them with handfull of MnM can rape any P army but u hv to emp precisely :D
I'm not the most awesomest platinum out there but I've dabbled in toss and terran at least so maybe I can at least attempt to say something useful:
Most protoss build a stalker for their first attack unit after going 1 gate core (chrono boosted). That one stalker will completely shut down 1 2 or even 3 reapers (but you can build a second one too). You really won't die to an MnM push even if you don't build an initial zealot.
Switching from immortal to colossus I usually do when I see the terran go ghost. Regardless of what some terrans say, they do counter immortals fairly hard and while you might hold them off it's certainly not your best choice.
I'm surprised you find it hard to spend chrono boost once you switch to colossus! One colossus takes like 3 boosts before it completes. Plus you need to boost the thermal lance upgrade (that one's a must) so I find I never have enough to be honest.
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On April 16 2010 15:36 oxxo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2010 15:26 Ryuu314 wrote:On April 16 2010 14:29 oxxo wrote:
Stalker/Immortal is ridiculously powerful. Stalkers need to be changed back to their goon style rather than good against everything style. Immortals need their damage bonus changed and/or shields need to be researched. Buildings need to have no type.
I'll be the first to admit when I get outplayed... but recently it's pretty obvious that the only time I win v P that goes Stalker/Immortal is when they are far worse than me. Anyone even close to my skill level can just a-move and win. hahahaha you're funny. you must be like the only guy on TL who thinks that stalkers are "good against everything" x]]] They aren't. But they are decent against most. Nothing like goons. There was no reason for them to move away from being good vs armored and meh vs others.
Are you serious? You must be trolling.
Goons did 20 explosive damage. Meaning 10 to small units and 20 to large units and 15 damage to medium units. They get +2 per attack upgrade. Goons had 80 shield 100 health.
They raped mech units and lurkers and were very good support for zealots and everything else in every single matchup. They were never completely raped by anything except maybe mass zerglings and other T1 units in mass.
Stalkers do 10 base damage with +4 against armored. They only get +1 per attack upgrade (which is not applied to bonus damage). They have 80 shield and 80 health.
They rape...nothing, except maybe reapers. They get raped by...everything. Except corruptors. But only because it can't shoot them.
There is absolutely nothing the stalker can do that the dragoon can't except for blink. In my opinion, dragoons are better than stalkers in every way except for their shitty AI and the inability to blink. Admittedly once blink is researched stalkers become pretty useful but you're going to have a hell of a hard time convincing most people on here that stalkers>dragoons. And I'm pretty sure a good portion of the Protoss players would love it if they replaced the stalker with the dragoon (assuming it gets an AI update, lol).
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On April 16 2010 15:36 oxxo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2010 15:26 Ryuu314 wrote:On April 16 2010 14:29 oxxo wrote:
Stalker/Immortal is ridiculously powerful. Stalkers need to be changed back to their goon style rather than good against everything style. Immortals need their damage bonus changed and/or shields need to be researched. Buildings need to have no type.
I'll be the first to admit when I get outplayed... but recently it's pretty obvious that the only time I win v P that goes Stalker/Immortal is when they are far worse than me. Anyone even close to my skill level can just a-move and win. hahahaha you're funny. you must be like the only guy on TL who thinks that stalkers are "good against everything" x]]] They aren't. But they are decent against most. Nothing like goons. There was no reason for them to move away from being good vs armored and meh vs others.
Are you kidding?^^; The reason they were made better vs non-armored was that 3 stalkers couldn't take out a mutalisk for the life of them. That change was absolutely neccessary. 100 gas sentries were not sustainable against a muta harass.
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Actually I'm kinda surprised blizzard didn't see this coming.
To draw a comparison to BW: Terran were able to play mech. However, gateway units were strong. The big point is, Terra has ranged units whereas those incredibly strong zealots all blocked each other and couldn't get a lot of units into attacking position because it was 2d with kinda huge collision boxes plus the maybe worst pathfinding ever seen in a game.
Now all units stack closely together what makes especially the previously clumpy mass of gateway units a compact dense cluster that can all attack at the same time. Not only you can't outmicro that with units such as marines (or marauders without slow), they also took away mech totally by making hellions a super slow shooting not microable unit and giving protoss the immortal, what's like the very icon of hard countering - against EVERYTHING that would give terran a shot against just t1/1.5 gateway unit.
Oh just one thing to add for those "just build thor-guys":
I tryed it for some time. It was successful against bad players. Then, I met an acceptable player. As Toss has his very own cheap maphack in form of an observer (I think observers are perfectly fine, just the rest of Toss isn't) he sees "oh, he goes thors." A minute later when I try to push, he has 5 Immortals. When he arrives at my base in a counter attack, he has 8 immortals. I ask him "You really only have one robotics?". Only got a "lol" out of him, ofc he only has one robotics. 40s buildtime plus chronoboost plus superhardcounter solves.
Thor doesn't even half way finish his 250mm cannon strike. Most don't get to the animation part when the actual damage is dealt. They die before.
One thing to remember: They have 400 HP and die to a unit that should be some kind of tanking unit within milliseconds.
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On April 16 2010 16:12 T33K3SS3LCH3N wrote:
Actually I'm kinda surprised blizzard didn't see this coming.
To draw a comparison to BW: Terran were able to play mech. However, gateway units were strong. The big point is, Terra has ranged units whereas those incredibly strong zealots all blocked each other and couldn't get a lot of units into attacking position because it was 2d with kinda huge collision boxes plus the maybe worst pathfinding ever seen in a game.
Now all units stack closely together what makes especially the previously clumpy mass of gateway units a compact dense cluster that can all attack at the same time. Not only you can't outmicro that with units such as marines (or marauders without slow), they also took away mech totally by making hellions a super slow shooting not microable unit and giving protoss the immortal, what's like the very icon of hard countering - against EVERYTHING that would give terran a shot against just t1/1.5 gateway unit.
Except we saw last patch just how screwy that balance got (i'm talking t1-1.5) with just one ability (concussive shells) being default vs. this patch where it is cheap research. You can't just revert the nerf to marauders (if anything they still need more nerfs, espcially if the immortal is to take a hit soon) and call it balanced. As for the t2 immortal, we've seen builds here that counter the immortal push, which is timed for the immo to shine right before being eclipsed by lots of stim marauders. What happens when they eliminate that gap? Do we return again to the patch-7 era of marauder piles running over protoss players because immortals only come out in significant numbers AFTER they're out-damage by stim marauders?
I think it's a really nasty situation with no simple "nerf this one unit" fix. Theres plenty of theory in here about toss t3 running amuck with terran players, but honestly, where have we seen this? FF and Colossai were used a lot last patch just for toss to remain relevant, but even that was loosing games to well-played marauder mass. Going to the air just isn't something toss are capable of right now, and even if it were the Viking handily defeats protoss air. So what happens when/if mech becomes a very generally viable counter to gateway units and robo counters are not as effective? I don't think that leaves the toss with much to go on, but I suppose the next patch will make whatever changes it will and we will all adapt accordingly.
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my strat vs toss after patch has been: 9 Rax fast Reaper. Bunker rush the Nexus with Marauder in queue. If he went 10 gate to Stalker I just run around nilly willy with my Reaper. If he goes for the SCV I start mowing down probes (and hope it hurts his econ hard enough that i'm ridiculously ahead). Otherwise I just kite the Stalker around until the Bunker is finish and there is a Marauder in it, bring a second SCV to proxy location, build a Rax and float it near my Bunker and just pool out Marines.
If neither works. I GG-Quit when I see 1 Gate Robo in my base.
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On April 16 2010 08:47 DeMusliM wrote:
Game 2 - he scouted the wrong way so he saw my base last, meaning he didn't know what i was doing until it was abit too late - quite unlucky for him, and i dare say if he played this again he wouldn't go 2-3 gateway rush and rather tech up to collosus/HT's with an expo.
It did seem like he lost a few units needlessly, trying to break down that bunker wall. If he had attempted to contain you and teched with an expo, do you think you could have put pressure on him early enough?
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On April 16 2010 17:36 BabelFish wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2010 08:47 DeMusliM wrote:
Game 2 - he scouted the wrong way so he saw my base last, meaning he didn't know what i was doing until it was abit too late - quite unlucky for him, and i dare say if he played this again he wouldn't go 2-3 gateway rush and rather tech up to collosus/HT's with an expo.
It did seem like he lost a few units needlessly, trying to break down that bunker wall. If he had attempted to contain you and teched with an expo, do you think you could have put pressure on him early enough?
I think the operative question is: When will he be playing against a comparably skilled protoss opponent so we can see this without the glaring flaws in P's play.
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On April 16 2010 14:36 Feefee wrote:
Yeah why is this thread still going strong with the nerf calls when it's already shown that that 4 rax fast expand works very well?^^; Someone should've closed this thing when it resolved the issue. Now it's burrowed amidst screams for nerfs of random units.
it doesnt work well. its not a solid straight up strategy. it has many hard counters and i thought we established that by now ;/
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On April 16 2010 18:00 MorroW wrote:
it doesnt work well. its not a solid straight up strategy. it has many hard counters and i thought we established that by now ;/
So you are looking for an unbeatable opening strategy?
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On April 16 2010 18:00 MorroW wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2010 14:36 Feefee wrote:
Yeah why is this thread still going strong with the nerf calls when it's already shown that that 4 rax fast expand works very well?^^; Someone should've closed this thing when it resolved the issue. Now it's burrowed amidst screams for nerfs of random units. it doesnt work well. its not a solid straight up strategy. it has many hard counters and i thought we established that by now ;/
As you already wrote:
On April 16 2010 00:44 MorroW wrote:
sc1 worked in the way that it was possible to scout and it was possible to react to it
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it was possible to scout each other and it was possible to comeback from a disadvantage. hell anything was possible in sc1 thats how it was so brilliant. in sc2 u cant do shit in theory and if u disagree i guess u just didnt play enough games or analyse enough to find this out :<
There just is no standard safe build because you can't ever be safe against certain other builds. It's just rock-paper-scissors with builds/tactics. Few executional skills required.
No possiblity of having a build that gives one a default defense that is strong enough to respond to most things your opponent could do without crippling one so much that it's impossible to ever actually leave the base and win a fight.
Really, the lack of possibilities to delay the opponent and defend your base breaks the game. Need high ground advantage, stronger or cheaper tanks, Mines etc.
I think there was some korean post from a guy who said "gosh, who choose this idiot for game design, he mixed it all up with command and conquer.". He was so right.
The other major issue you adressed is that there can't be any turnarounds anymore, another thing caused by the absolute lack of defense that is more effective than offensively used units.
On April 16 2010 18:39 mfukar wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2010 18:00 MorroW wrote:
it doesnt work well. its not a solid straight up strategy. it has many hard counters and i thought we established that by now ;/ So you are looking for an unbeatable opening strategy?
I'm sure he doesn't. People are looking for a standard build that is flexible to respond to your opponent and gives you a defense that has the ability of stopping standards from pwning you.
The whole point is, the opening strategy should not be unbeatable, it should be executable in a way that makes it possibly to survive against most possible tactics.
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On April 16 2010 18:40 T33K3SS3LCH3N wrote:
I'm sure he doesn't. People are looking for a standard build that is flexible to respond to your opponent and gives you a defense that has the ability of stopping standards from pwning you.
The whole point is, the opening strategy should not be unbeatable, it should be executable in a way that makes it possibly to survive against most possible tactics.
I'm sure he doesn't, either. However, both he and everyone else in "TvP is broken zomg" threads act and type like they are. The solution is simple: post your opinion on the b.net boards, post it here, make your argument, Blizzard will read it and if they think you're right, they will fix it somehow.
If they don't, only time will prove their complaints right. That, or they'll accept they suck..eventually. I don't see why we have to perpetuate an argument that neither side is willing to prove (even when a replay is posted, we turn the audience's attention to the "glaring flaws" in human play...hypocritical to say the least).
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I see alot of people talking about the immortal, but am I wrong if I say that those forcefields are damn imba? Protoss can easely split my whole army into 2 and kill it...
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The shitty thing is, blizzard nerfs things based on what the public is bitching about, not what is really imbalanced. And since all the terran crybaby's are out in full force lately, they want to make their fans "happy".. Thats blizzards new mantra I guess, who cares about the game balance, just make fans happy.. Hence the retarded idea of divisions, meaning people instead dont care about points/wins, they just say "Hey im #1 in my division!" even when they wouldnt be top 15 in another division.
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That, or they'll accept they suck..eventually.
yup, morrow, demuslim and jinro will have to accept that they are n00b. Are you even listening to yourself guys? Those are players who talked about how Terran has advantage over protoss in times when tosses were roflstomping over terrans in usa etc.
These players played hundreds of games vs. really strong players and you guys are asking them if they have tried something?
Truth is that toss was since the begining stronger race overall. Only thing that kept terrans in better position were 3 broken builds (marine-scv rush, morrow and lucifron FE).
Now that those builds are patched, it comes to clear matchup which shows that it just goes to protoss favor.
This "new" 4 FE build (it's basically morrow build, but he needed 3rax back then before marine nerf) is viable only vs immortals, but toss can scout you wih 1 observer and make such painless switch in tech and just eat you.
Terrans in Europe were always realistic and talked about how they feel that they have upper hand, and now they are saying it's opposite and now they are just whiners?
toss has unit which hard counters every terran mech unit which is basically everything above T1 and that's big problem. New strategies will not help with the fact that 1 immortal needs 4 shots to kill tank, while sieged tanks need 10 shots just to remove immortals shield.
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On April 16 2010 19:13 Skyze wrote:
The shitty thing is, blizzard nerfs things based on what the public is bitching about, not what is really imbalanced. And since all the terran crybaby's are out in full force lately, they want to make their fans "happy".. Thats blizzards new mantra I guess, who cares about the game balance, just make fans happy.. Hence the retarded idea of divisions, meaning people instead dont care about points/wins, they just say "Hey im #1 in my division!" even when they wouldnt be top 15 in another division.
thats how they nerfed scv rush and marauder, leave this topic troll
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On April 16 2010 19:13 Skyze wrote:
The shitty thing is, blizzard nerfs things based on what the public is bitching about, not what is really imbalanced. And since all the terran crybaby's are out in full force lately, they want to make their fans "happy".. Thats blizzards new mantra I guess, who cares about the game balance, just make fans happy.. Hence the retarded idea of divisions, meaning people instead dont care about points/wins, they just say "Hey im #1 in my division!" even when they wouldnt be top 15 in another division.
lol what? I hope you're trolling because I doubt Blizzard is that mindless... I would guess that rather than immediately patching something, they would internally test it (Cowgomoo, David Kim, KHB, etc) to see if it is legit first. This is also off-topic. Can people go back to posting about the OP.
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On April 16 2010 19:19 bLah. wrote:yup, morrow, demuslim and jinro will have to accept that they are n00b. Are you even listening to yourself guys?
Reading comprehension, please.
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BratOK replay:
http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft2/replays/30845
In all seriousness though, Can you TOP terrans who are smart/good players, Demuslim/Jinro, try this strategy out more? Maybe it is your answer you've been waiting for.
Since theres a reset coming, im gonna just play terran til then, and altho im only around 1600 platinum on the US server, if I consistantly beat protosses, ill post the replays, even tho it will be quite bad since i've played like 3 terran games in my life. But the fact should remain, being a smart player should outweight any "imbalances" at the level I am at, and just about everyone whos complaining in this thread besides the top league/tourney players like Jinro/Demuslim, should feel the same.
Everyone else, You aren't facing masters like White-Ra everygame in ladder, you should be winning games, and if you aren't, just please actually watch your own replays and like, learn from mistakes? Instead of saying "OMG this matchup is imbalanced because demuslim said so".. There are so few Protosses who can actually "abuse" immortals/pushing right now, so to blame every loss on the "imbalance" is counter-productive to your own progress as a player. Think of something new and unique to counter your situation, like BRAT_OK did.
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On April 16 2010 19:52 Skyze wrote:Terrans please watch this and tell me Protoss units rape every terran unit. http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft2/replays/30845Best terran outside of Korea didnt complain, he just went and found a strat that works. Take notes and stop your complaining.
Actually at 7:21 he could have won. If he made an observer instead of the 3rd Immortal. And put it to see up the cliff but not in range of the Marines. In the time that Chobo was attacking the wall and his first Immortals shields went down he would have killed 2 Marauders with that group leaving him with 1 Full Immortal/1 w/o Shields/3 Stalkers and 1 Zealot vs 3 Marauders/2 Marines/Raven. And also he only gets the win because of the mis-match up of the 2nd push. If he made 1 Colossus when he saw the heavy Bio instead of going 6 Immortals on the 2nd push it would have been over.
Also if the Protoss didn't engage on the ramp and lose 3 Immortals/2 Sentries/2 Stalkers/1 Zealot. He could have kept him contained as long as he wanted. Meaning no expo. He barely loses in the ending fight while being down those units.
Not to mention maybe instead of walking in blind every push he tried he could have used an observer and sniped the depots. Instead blindly walking into a stimmed Bio army.
So he could have a) won the first push b) keep him contained c) sniped the bunkers d) go colossus any time after 7:21. For either instant victory or contain.
Most people stand corrected. Immortal timing push still would have dominated. Forcing Terran to go Bio heavy and stay in his base and not allowed to expo and force a tech switch. It was more of a mistake of not going to Colossus after seeing Bio that won. Not that he was amazing nor some amazing build. It was a Protoss error. Its more of a replay of what not to do as a Protoss than what to do as a Terran.
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what most ppl fail to see is that if all they( high level terrans ) want is easy wins they would switch race to any other race they feel is better (dont care which one u think is OP) and win.
BUUUUUUUUUUT just on the outside chance that they want a balanced game so they can enjoy three races instead or one or two maybe stfu with the "terran crybabies" comments etc..you just look PATHETIC. end of story case closed true story etc.
Oh and I had some actual input also, Ive further tried the 4rax FE and Ive had some success with it actually, so I survive the first initial pressure and/or push from the protoss, now I have real problems against collosus/HT's because Ive gone low tech mass low health units, I dont have a problem with this if I can scout it before he gets his first collosus up, but if I get surprised by two+ collosus its over, doesnt matter if I panic up mass vikings and kill the collosus cuz they will just burn through my army before they get killed...I suspect I may be able to tech a little earlier and pre-empt a viking to scout the protoss better isntead of wasting multiple scans to search for robo bay..
problem is many good protosses now hide their tech outside of their base, they already have pylons on many places on the map to warp in units quickly, so they might aswell throw up some hidden tech. Maybe I scout badly, Will get back and post when Ive tried some more >.< gg gl hf
edit: viking is much cheeper than scan and can move and fight...so im thinking its a good idea to use them more often, I dont see that nearly enough from good players, its something Ive been thinking about a lot lately, possibly try and crank one viking out super early.
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On April 16 2010 20:25 arnold(soTa) wrote:
what most ppl fail to see is that if all they( high level terrans ) want is easy wins they would switch race to any other race they feel is better (dont care which one u think is OP) and win.
BUUUUUUUUUUT just on the outside chance that they want a balanced game so they can enjoy three races instead or one or two maybe stfu with the "terran crybabies" comments etc..you just look PATHETIC. end of story case closed true story etc.
Oh and I had some actual input also, Ive further tried the 4rax FE and Ive had some success with it actually, so I survive the first initial pressure and/or push from the protoss, now I have real problems against collosus/HT's because Ive gone low tech mass low health units, I dont have a problem with this if I can scout it before he gets his first collosus up, but if I get surprised by two+ collosus its over, doesnt matter if I panic up mass vikings and kill the collosus cuz they will just burn through my army before they get killed...I suspect I may be able to tech a little earlier and pre-empt a viking to scout the protoss better isntead of wasting multiple scans to search for robo bay..
problem is many good protosses now hide their tech outside of their base, they already have pylons on many places on the map to warp in units quickly, so they might aswell throw up some hidden tech. Maybe I scout badly, Will get back and post when Ive tried some more >.< gg gl hf
edit: viking is much cheeper than scan and can move and fight...so im thinking its a good idea to use them more often, I dont see that nearly enough from good players, its something Ive been thinking about a lot lately, possibly try and crank one viking out super early.
Maybe, but keep in mind when the Marauder rushes was going on, every terran you meet would just laugh in your face if you said "wow how do you beat that".. I even fucking played KawaiiRice, he dominated me like bad, and I just asked politely "Any tips on stopping this"? And he gave me the "Get better newb" or some sarcastic bullshit comment like that. I remember it distinctly, because I was like "Wow, I didnt know you were such a douche Xeris" (since he was on Xeris's account at the time) and he said "Just so you dont confuse us, im Kawaii, so dont say Xeris is bad mannered".. My point being, other than KawaiiRice is a douche, is If all you terrans gave us zergs/protosses shit about being crybabys in the past 3-4 patches, you cant take it now?
I'd say about every terran ive played on ladder in the previous patches on US server were complete dicks when I said marauders needed a change, other than a very very select few who AGREED with me. This is including many terrans that are in the US tourneys/leagues right now. So if they are dicks for 5 patches, why are they not able to take it now when you have 1 and a half week of "potential Protoss imbalance"?
Im sure this is just a fact that we're on the US server though, the land of the idiots. European terrans are much more mannered, and actually rebuttle an argument with a logical and thought-out answer. If more terrans acted like that, It would make this forum a much happier place, rather than people personally attacking anyone who doesnt agree with them.
Treat others how you want to be treated, and from the personal attacks from 80% of the terrans in this thread to ANY protoss who provides a counter-argument to your opinion (like InControl getting personally bashed when voicing his opinion, someone even mentioned "did you take too much steroids to the head"?? what a fucking douche.), quite clearly I believe those people are crybabys. People like Flophead, "lolreaper", etc. There are civil terrans who are bringing up good points that are legit, such as Jinro, and I respect those terran's opinions, but if you are going to just counter any argument with "OMG take away your beta key" or something personally insulting, then why should respect be given back? In my opinion, those people who act that way probably aren't even at a level where the imbalance is being felt, and they ARE terran crybaby's. So fuck them. Unfortunately, threads are filled with those types of people, rather than mannered people wanting to have a real discussion about balance. People who are civil and bringing up legitimate concerns like Jinro, maybe he has a point, and I am all for trying to help out, such as providing that BRAT_OK replay in hopes they can try it out and see if its a possible solution.
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^
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On April 16 2010 19:13 Skyze wrote:
The shitty thing is, blizzard nerfs things based on what the public is bitching about, not what is really imbalanced. And since all the terran crybaby's are out in full force lately, they want to make their fans "happy".. Thats blizzards new mantra I guess, who cares about the game balance, just make fans happy.. Hence the retarded idea of divisions, meaning people instead dont care about points/wins, they just say "Hey im #1 in my division!" even when they wouldnt be top 15 in another division.
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so you are spamming this thread since days with your bullshit cause you are butthurt over random guys not admitting something was op?
dude you just won the award for the biggest douche currently on tl.net.
ontopic:
ya vikings are amzing for scouting. fast,cheaper then a scan(or equal) and you can actually kill some stray pylons when you find em.
always go for it.
but i dunno about the 4rax thing. what to follow up? if the p just techs to storm/collosi half of your army will instantly evaporate. you cant really pressure and even double expoing shouldnt be too hard for the p.
the banshee/rauder thing looked nice but if the p is prepared i dont see how you can pressure at anytime and we are back at the old problem.
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f5 double post delete pls...
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Sweden33719 Posts
To be clear, I don't think I've said that "TvP is imbalanced", only that I don't really know what to do in the matchup. Maybe it's imbalanced, maybe it isn't - all I know is that I don't know.
I don't know what to do TvT either, and I'm pretty sure that matchup isn't imbalanced
Anyway, ClouD has some good TvP ideas that I've been borrowing for a bit. I'll let him post about it if he wants to tho.
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Uh wrong. I am just saying people like YOU who are bitching terran are imbalanced, are fucking idiots who need to learn how to dissect your replays, think of new strats and playing good instead of blaming all your losses on imbalances.
If you are gonna bitch about protoss's being imbalanced, then stop being a fag and insulting others because you suck too bad to learn how to counter a simple strat, and actually LEARN TO COUNTER THE STRAT. Its not like you are playing in leagues, your playing newbs on the ladder, if you are still losing to protoss then you are just plain horrible.
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On April 16 2010 21:06 FrozenArbiter wrote:To be clear, I don't think I've said that "TvP is imbalanced", only that I don't really know what to do in the matchup. Maybe it's imbalanced, maybe it isn't - all I know is that I don't know. I don't know what to do TvT either, and I'm pretty sure that matchup isn't imbalanced Anyway, ClouD has some good TvP ideas that I've been borrowing for a bit. I'll let him post about it if he wants to tho.
That is fine, I never had any issues with anything you said. Im sure no protoss's did, its just other terrans who are literally crying every post "WAH WAH IMMORTALS KILL EVERY UNIT TERRAN HAS" and the whole "terran units get raped by every single protoss unit" bullshit, thats whats so annoying. And when you try to give them solutions, they bash you and dont take your advice.
People are just so blinded by the illusion of "imbalance" because a high profile player like Demuslim started this thread, that they ignore everything anyone who is not supporting their cause says.
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Sweden33719 Posts
Could you all please relax just a tad? We are discussing a game in beta - you'd think this was a religious/political thread or something.
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On April 16 2010 21:10 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Could you all please relax just a tad? We are discussing a game in beta - you'd think this was a religious/political thread or something.
Yea im done posting in this thread/any thread involving terrans. They just keep finding something to complain about. I tried showing them a replay which shows multiple ways to deal with Protoss, esp on a lower level of play, but theres no satisfying them. The discussion is pointless really at this point, they wont accept anything other than "Your right, Protoss is too strong and needs to be removed from the game."
Terrans like Brat_OK and Cloud arent here bitching, they are working their butts off trying to find a counter. That is what all terrans should be doing. Wouldnt SC be wonderful if all zergs quit playing after Boxer/iloveoov, instead of having Savior come and show how to really play zerg?
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On April 16 2010 21:13 Skyze wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2010 21:10 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Could you all please relax just a tad? We are discussing a game in beta - you'd think this was a religious/political thread or something. Yea im done posting in this thread/any thread involving terrans. They just keep finding something to complain about. I tried showing them a replay which shows multiple ways to deal with Protoss, esp on a lower level of play, but theres no satisfying them. The discussion is pointless really at this point, they wont accept anything other than "Your right, Protoss is too strong and needs to be removed from the game."
you are such a hypocrite, i saw you bitching about marauder being overpowered or emp countering toss army but yet only terran players are whiny lol
On April 16 2010 21:13 Skyze wrote:
Terrans like Brat_OK and Cloud arent here bitching
cloud actually posted here and said hes lost in tvp(like most top terrans), so the fuck are you talking about. We try to have a normal discussion but people like you make from this thread shit, gtfo troll somehwere else please.
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why do you keep referencing the bratok game. It was nothing special, let alone viable. What did he do that was so innovative? Build a raven? are you serious?
I understand people get excited when they see something "new." But just because you have not seen it before, or just because a good player tried it and raped a kid a game does not mean it is viable at all at top level of play.
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Hmm, it does seems a bit broken :S
I'm a Protoss Gold Division EU player and my last 5 games vs Terrans were all totally dominated victories.
Even if the Terran goes proxy rax into Reaper harass, all I gotta do is hang in there, while my 1st Stalker pops out. By that time I can loose like a probe or two. After that point it's pretty much game over for him. Add a 2nd gate, expo quickly, get forge, research +1 attack, Robo, add 2 more gates and ... A-move right into his base.
If he goes for the more standard game plan of 3/4 rax into expo, it just seems to make the game last longer, but it ends up in a very similar fashion.
I'm not big fan of Immortals or Colossi, but I tend to throw in few in the mix, just for fun. I rely mainly on gateway units and they seems to do the job just perfectly.
I think Terrans are missing something in the TvP picture. Not sure what it is thou. Maybe 1 base Hellions after the initial 3 rax ? I don't see hellions getting used at all. Sure Immortals pwn them, but they are pretty good meat shield for the MnM ball vs Zealots. And every decent protoss player should have about 10-12 Zealots with Charge when he thinks about moving out to cripple the Terran.
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The matchup is a huge problem, because Protoss is so very flexible early on in the game. They have many abilities which allow them to screw up Terran strategies and the Sentry with Forcefield and Guardian Shield is the major offender here. Both of these are nice, but both used in conjunction with the Immortal pretty much let the skill of the Protoss decide the outcome of a battle. If the Protoss scouts the Terran well enough and knows where and when to place his Forcefields the Terran is lost. Immortals just demolish Terran defensive structures, so they are almost useless; the same goes for any Factory units. Added to this is the almost instant replacement of Stalkers and Zealots at the front, due to Warp Gate and Chrono Boost stacking.
Protoss love to say that the Ghost counters the Immortal, but it is very easy to screw up that counter by simply running away (Forcefield blocks pursuit) and regenerating the Shields before attacking again. (*1) EMP costs 75 energy and getting that much takes far longer than regenerating the Shields of an Immortal. If you spread out your Immortals you also need more than one Ghost with 75 energy and rushing that tech will eat into your other research and army size, since they cost 150 Gas after all. Apart from reducing shields the Ghost does not kill Immortals very well.
Zerg dont have that many problems against Protoss, because they have pretty strong light units and they can survive with a simpler unit composition mad up of only 1 or 2 different types. Terrans need a mix of units to be good and its easy enough for Protoss to isolate a critical component. Thats why TvP is so fragile. So I would definetely think some of the Protoss should calm down and try to see their own huge advantage in the early game now instead of declaring that a solution has been found. Let the Terrans solve this problem ... unless you want to give advice.
(*1) Question: How much damage does an Immortal with 1 Shield get from a Sieged Tank?
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why every marauder's only terran and linge/mutas or hyds only zerg is crying about protoss ?
may you guys trying out some different units ? maybe then you will have a chance vs the 1400point platin protoss'
loled
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open fe with planet fortress..unless toss go heavy immortal..gateway units won't be able to kill that sucker -,-
only immortal can do any damage to PF...
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On April 17 2010 01:06 VoodooDog wrote:
why every marauder's only terran and linge/mutas or hyds only zerg is crying about protoss ?
may you guys trying out some different units ? maybe then you will have a chance vs the 1400point platin protoss'
loled
Did you read all 24 pages of the topic ? Stop trolling please
Regard
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On April 16 2010 21:08 Skyze wrote:
Uh wrong. I am just saying people like YOU who are bitching terran are imbalanced, are fucking idiots who need to learn how to dissect your replays, think of new strats and playing good instead of blaming all your losses on imbalances.
If you are gonna bitch about protoss's being imbalanced, then stop being a fag and insulting others because you suck too bad to learn how to counter a simple strat, and actually LEARN TO COUNTER THE STRAT. Its not like you are playing in leagues, your playing newbs on the ladder, if you are still losing to protoss then you are just plain horrible.
you should really go learn some manners, your posts are full of biggoted shit and nonse, flames and whatnot, you dont seem to know who you are talking too or what you are talking about either.
You also read way to much into the whine in this thread, there will always be whine in a thread that tries to make sense of a certain matchup, deal with it or dont read the thread, you seem really stupid tbh you prolly will respond to this with more flames instead of learning from it, which maybe makes me the idiot for even taking time out of my not so busy schedule to reply to your BM posts.
fact its a beta, which by defenition is imbalanced, this thread is NOT complaining about the matchup but trying to make sense of it (imbalance or not), can you please realize this? and filter out the whine ??? or are you just so personally insulted when someone thinks your race is OP.
just stfu or gtfo if you dont have something constructive to say is basiclly what im trying to say...
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On April 17 2010 01:15 The6357 wrote:
open fe with planet fortress..unless toss go heavy immortal..gateway units won't be able to kill that sucker -,-
only immortal can do any damage to PF...
PF only works on LT and Metalopolis. Any other map they can get around it, even with the range upgrade, pretty easily. It's also a big investment and hurts your ability to get return on your expansion in a timely manner by sacrificing a 2nd MULE. It also costs a lot of gas and to get it fast enough means you're cutting tech and units, making you extremely vulnerable to void rays or drops/warp-ins. PF FE just doesn't work out so well
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It seems that this entire thread hinges on the fact that it is a human right to be able to FE safely.
What is the question?
Can a Terran defend a 1-base timing attack
-or -
Can a Terran defend a 1 base timing attack while fast expanding?
If it is the first case, then there is a problem. If it is the latter case, then I am not sure that is the intention from Blizzard, though that is anyone's guess at this point.
At the end of the day, the issue is probably more along the lines that in order to defend Terran must make some choices that will enable Protoss to be at an advantage from that point on.
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I haven't read all of the posts in this thread so this might have been suggested already. But how about going a banshee rush to force him to go stalkers. then you can have a marauder army as back up to deal with his stalkers. The banshees will keep him from being able to go too much immortal/colossus which is the biggest problem for the marauders. Getting cloak early will also force him to use gas on obs and if you get a couple vikings+scanner sweeps on them you can keep his ground army pretty well contained.
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I wish someone (with a lot of credibility) made a thread (ONLY for people with a lot of credibility) where they can discuss balance issues and actually agree on issues that MUST be addressed and propose changes that MUST be made...
Otherwise it's scattered ALL OVER TL and other websites and when you read a thing in one thread and think it's a good idea, a week later in another thread you read WHY it won't work... so it's hard to sum it all up.
So I'm calling out all of our HIGH LEVEL players/TL Staff to actually make something happen!!! Get together and have a damn conference! xD I really don't feel the need to name people specifically since I don't even know all of them but I'm sure TL Staff will know who I'm talking about... maybe even arrange a meeting with Blizz or something (or a chat, whatever's clever) and see where they are on balancing things... I know a guy that works for them and also runs SC2/Diablo3 fansites... I can talk to him about it and MAYBE we can get our voices heard through him. =)
Who wants the game to be released just to be patched 500 times after? Let's get as much as we can done, while we're still in BETA!!!
PS: I'm not aware of everything that's going on with TL & SC2. If I'm proposing something that's been done (or has been brought up before), I apologize... I also apologize for posting in "bold", I just felt like this needs to be seen! Don't be too harsh on me =)
If you think I'm better off PM'n someone instead of posting these motivational speeches (LOL) please tell me who do I have to write to?
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wtf?! Double post... sorry sorry
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I won against a midrange platinum protoss by doing the 4 rax FE, but on scrapstation, but I built my CC at the edge of my base, floating it over the destructable rocks and proceeded to make a plantary fortress under his ramp, it was hella fun to watch him squirm, ofcourse I had rallied all my units there and several scvs, and as soon as PF was finished upgrading I built more scvs to repair and build depots in annoying places, it was retarded but fun, he went the warpprism route but I expected as much and he could never get it close to my base because I had two vikings patrolling the 'coast' :D also I did the armor upgrade for PF !!!! do not knock the offensive capabilities of the PF =)
Also whenever he wasnt pushing out trying to kill off my PF I was killing the rocks on his side of the map while I had one marauder shooting the rocks from my side, so eventually the distance was very short between my base and his choke.
edit: once the PF was up I didnt need to pump units so madly anymore ,I just teched up to vikings quickly and expanded the gold minerals.
ofc this only worked because he was so surprised by it and did panic a bit, this should never work , do not try this at home kids=)
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On April 17 2010 01:50 Louder wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2010 01:15 The6357 wrote:
open fe with planet fortress..unless toss go heavy immortal..gateway units won't be able to kill that sucker -,-
only immortal can do any damage to PF... PF only works on LT and Metalopolis. Any other map they can get around it, even with the range upgrade, pretty easily. It's also a big investment and hurts your ability to get return on your expansion in a timely manner by sacrificing a 2nd MULE. It also costs a lot of gas and to get it fast enough means you're cutting tech and units, making you extremely vulnerable to void rays or drops/warp-ins. PF FE just doesn't work out so well
It also sorta works on Steppes. But regardless, 1 prism = gg if you went for PF. It's a joke. I guess you could go PF + turrets but then you've spent so much money on turtling that you're out an army. By the time you build one protoss probably will have outmacro'd you considerably.
I need to try more 2 fact based play because I think it's actually somewhat viable. I want to practice it vs a really good protoss, not ladder randos, before I draw any conclusions.
As for this 4 rax FE weirdness, I'll see if I can get some terrans to do this vs me in practice games. I want to prove my suspicions that coli drop + warpin beats it. It's possible I'll be proven wrong though =P
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With the right positioning Siege-Tank/Marine into Fast Expand is viable (not on Desert Oasis and Scrap Station of course)
I'm talking about Plat 1800-2000 here
If it is different on the very top-level, then i'm sorry, but on that level it appears to be a very solid build
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Watch the games in my thread. It is not a viable strategy off 1 rax 1 fact.
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1 rax 1 fac is too less
You need an reactor for double marine production and build techlab at rax to switch fac there, since having one tank more or less is crucial
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On April 17 2010 02:42 Wilko wrote:
1 rax 1 fac is too less
You need an reactor for double marine production and build techlab at rax to switch fac there, since having one tank more or less is crucial
I didn't do the techlab swap but I did try reactor on rax. It's just not enough units. You'll get contained and pretty much never be able to break it. If you start going down your ramp you'll get forcefielded and your tanks killed by immortals in 2 seconds. You could go emp very quickly after, but a good toss is so spread out that you won't hit enough units with just 1 emp.
I actually can use the strat on kulas thanks to the backdoor expo with high ground. I think it also works ok on LT simply because you have so much ledge to shoot from. However, on any other map it just seems slightly too weak. That's why I'm looking into double factory variants.
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So many unskilled terrans whining about imbalance (I'm talking directly to you HalfAmazing).
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I wonder if this game is ever going to be balanced, seems like one change produces many other problems
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On April 17 2010 03:09 Floophead_III wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2010 02:42 Wilko wrote:
1 rax 1 fac is too less
You need an reactor for double marine production and build techlab at rax to switch fac there, since having one tank more or less is crucial I didn't do the techlab swap but I did try reactor on rax. It's just not enough units. You'll get contained and pretty much never be able to break it. If you start going down your ramp you'll get forcefielded and your tanks killed by immortals in 2 seconds. You could go emp very quickly after, but a good toss is so spread out that you won't hit enough units with just 1 emp. I actually can use the strat on kulas thanks to the backdoor expo with high ground. I think it also works ok on LT simply because you have so much ledge to shoot from. However, on any other map it just seems slightly too weak. That's why I'm looking into double factory variants.
When u hit a certain amount of tanks, u can't be contained anymore
The Terran has to deal with the Protoss Eco-Boom then, but since u r able to get into mid-game there will be quite some possibilities
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Try 1 rax marine -> FE without gas. I've played against it from some good Platinum level players and can defend against early immortals and stalkers, especially with good use of bunkers. It's also easily transition-able into marauders, air, or even mech and you get an expo up ridiculously fast.
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right now im 1800++ plat div EU , im toss user , some games im still having a big troubles with terrans . It's true most of terran players are playing robotic style MMM or only M or MMT , but all i can see is that they don't even have an idea why they do it , just cuz they saw some replays of 2 patches ago ... what i mean is that terran got to have creativity ( BRAIN ) , not just the robo style . Think where and how to make a good drop to kill some probes , etc .. have u ever played BW ? did u forget that game ? how toss loses his probes ? .. and after all it's still beta. Enjoy it .
PS: sorry if my english is not A+ rank :D
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On April 16 2010 01:47 duckhunt wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2010 01:25 PanzerDragoon wrote:
How many years did it take for the safe builds to develop?
In 2001 it was considered a strong play to 9 pool into sunken rushing your opponent. That was STANDARD.
SC2 is a month old, it takes a lot of experimentation to develop these safe "standard" builds. So until then, we're going to see a lot of crazy 'cheese' and such. pls do not compare sc2 to scbw in terms of strats / metagame development, 1 week in sc2 is like 1 year in scbw, nobody knew how to play RTS games back then, now everyone is REALLY good and actually trying to learn the game properly. Also if all of the top players in europe, strelok / morrow demuslim are saying that tvp is broken and no matter what they do ( im sure they all play A LOT more than you and have tried every possible combination of builds / units that they could think of before posting here ) then you shouldn't argue with them and make retarded arguments because you are losing to terrans in your silver league. The fact is that at the highest levels on every server, P is crushing T at the moment, and there is nothing T can do about it until the game gets patched. Anyone who cries and says "OMG EMP IS IMBALANCED" needs to stfu and realize that they are only losing because they are bad ;(
Dude, I was was pointing out Morrow's complaint of no "safe strategy" was flawed because there hasn't been enough time to find out what is truly a safe standard yet.
TvP may or may not be broken. I don't really care.
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On April 17 2010 04:02 insignia wrote:
right now im 1800++ plat div EU , im toss user , some games im still having a big troubles with terrans . It's true most of terran players are playing robotic style MMM or only M or MMT , but all i can see is that they don't even have an idea why they do it , just cuz they saw some replays of 2 patches ago ... what i mean is that terran got to have creativity ( BRAIN ) , not just the robo style . Think where and how to make a good drop to kill some probes , etc .. have u ever played BW ? did u forget that game ? how toss loses his probes ? .. and after all it's still beta. Enjoy it .
PS: sorry if my english is not A+ rank :D
terran players have developed more innovative strategies than toss + zergs together, u cant possibly complain that we do not try ....
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I've followed you since you started doing well in tournaments and I think your macro is a little lacking at least in comparison to your micro which is good for sure, but I think you get stuck doing the same shit every game which is fine if it works, but by the sound of your post it's not working anymore.
I've been using banshees a lot with my army and doing really well. I think the protoss' in the EU servers appear to be better than the US ones so maybe I'm playing players of lower calibur, but I've got wins over every top protoss I can think of in the US ladder system with some sort of banshee incorporation.
I treat the matchup like SC1 ZvT and I use banshee to harass. If you can control how much gas the protoss has and have an air advantage you can control the game. I started doing this after the patch which prior to the patch I just made marauder and did a timing stim attack and microed them to death, but now the timing is off so I started doing this.
I play a fairly safe style that gets banshees without going all in. I scout a lot with rax and my goal is to get them to switch to a stalker heavy army or kill them before they can get there. I find the stalker heavy army to be the easiest to deal with in TvP. Scouting and switching tech to what they make is really important, but I haven’t ran into anything including a phoenix opener from inc that made banshees look like a bad choice. Just takes micro and I know you got the apm’s for it.
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Not much has been said about the success/failure of banshee builds. I guess early obs is supposed to counter them? But they seem to be pretty strong overall and protoss AA is not exactly known for its effectiveness.
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Well, obviously I'm a little late here at 25 pages and i'm sure it's been discussed, but I find the upgrade at the engineering bay to add 2 armor to building indispensable, along with utilizing EMP and making sure not to use Supply Depots as part of my wall in. When I do these three things, I find I am able to hold off the gateway timing push pretty handily.
I am top 8 in my Gold division, so I'm obviously not playing the best in the world, but I think the upgrade is underappreciated by most players.
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Alright, well I had the pleasure of playing Orb in a TvP and did my 2 factory opening vs him. I actually made some dumb errors like getting my hellions killed constantly and losing a ghost by running it into cannons. He also killed quite a few depots with an immortal drop, but got trapped and lost the prism which I think was a bit of a blunder on his part.
I think perhaps this build order is viable early, and the midgame power of ghostmech is simply ridiculous.
If this BO or a slight variant can manage to get enough early control to secure an expo and get ghosts out, I think it might be the answer we've been looking for.
http://www.sc2rc.com/index.php/replay/show/1647
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watched replay, sorry but orb didnt show any kind of the agression (there were many moments when he had alot stronger army and could have killed you) on top of that his macro was bad, basically he was sitting at the choke with 8 immortals doing nothing while you expoed and slowely builded army while teching to emp.
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Watched the replay myself. I don't know if he could've beat me if I threw down some bunkers, but he was definitely ahead in food count by about 30 all game. I don't think there's a damn thing I can do about it either. It's just a food discrepancy caused by immortals coming out so ridiculously fast, and marines only being 1 food as opposed to 2 for every protoss unit. I don't think his army was massively overpowering though, but he might've missed a small window there. Definitely it goes to show that protoss gets their power going much faster than terran =/
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After playing a lot more platinum games I have to grudgefully admit that P is having a better time in PvT in the early game. Once the game gets into mid and late I feel that it's pretty balanced because T has a good number of options to fight back against Protoss (EMP, air, a large mass of mech, etc...).
However, I don't think the problem lies within Protoss Immortals being too strong or FF being too good. I think a big issue is that Terran macro is too slow early. It was the same in BW, but at least in BW defensive play was a lot easier. Now with tanks being so expensive, it's quite simply very bad to get them against Protoss Immortals as a form of defense. In addition, the amount of time and resources it takes to get ghosts out is quite prohibitive. The increased marine build time also doesn't help either.
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On April 17 2010 06:55 sadyque wrote:Just in case some of you weren't convinced protoss needs some nerfs. The toss keeps the T in his base using forcefields for ~5mins after he destroys the T fe while he builds his own. http://starcraft.gamesports.net/de/replays/874/
you can probe drill to get vision and have your tanks snipe sentries as they move up.
, I don't think the problem lies within Protoss Immortals being too strong or FF being too good. I think a big issue is that Terran macro is too slow early. I agree to a certain point. Reactors need to build much faster. The nerf really put a dent in rine numbers that T can have affordably early on.
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Orb has that tendency to play unusually passively pvt for some reason from what I've seen in his streams. I'm really not sure why - the most brutal part of this whole bit about immortals is the early timing of it, before you have more than 1 or 2 EMPs or any other kind of tech in quantity, to either kill the terran, or deny his expo and expand yourself. Like that replay for example, I think he could have easily just walked over your front door defense, but even if you opted to make bunkers, he could have knocked down the backdoor rocks and just pressured you really hard. When P doesn't take advantage of this timing and lets terran get 2 bases worth of gas, then T actually has the option to do things like heavy air, or ghostmech, or other gas intensive tech strats.
Neat rep though and if immortals do get a build time increase of some sort I think it will be a very very strong opening.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On April 17 2010 04:01 asdfTT123 wrote:
Try 1 rax marine -> FE without gas. I've played against it from some good Platinum level players and can defend against early immortals and stalkers, especially with good use of bunkers. It's also easily transition-able into marauders, air, or even mech and you get an expo up ridiculously fast.
Yeah, I think MorroW's old build might still be the best.
Maps like Blistering Sands with the backdoor, or Scrap station with the huge distance between choke and nat (and a semi-backdoor) seem annoying tho
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On April 17 2010 07:14 FrozenArbiter wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2010 04:01 asdfTT123 wrote:
Try 1 rax marine -> FE without gas. I've played against it from some good Platinum level players and can defend against early immortals and stalkers, especially with good use of bunkers. It's also easily transition-able into marauders, air, or even mech and you get an expo up ridiculously fast. Yeah, I think MorroW's old build might still be the best. Maps like Blistering Sands with the backdoor, or Scrap station with the huge distance between choke and nat (and a semi-backdoor) seem annoying tho
ive actually updated my old 1rax fe build and i will soon reach 100% winratio like i did back in patch 5
but honestly i dont even enjoy playing tvp. its just mass marauder every single game. just as i predicted their shells upgrade wouldnt stop the mass marauder, it would just cause us to adjust the early game bo
i rly hope they nerf the marauder, and i mean the marauder, not any upgrade tt its lame (theyd have to buff most t units tho but in the long run we would have more variety)
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On April 17 2010 07:23 MorroW wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2010 07:14 FrozenArbiter wrote:On April 17 2010 04:01 asdfTT123 wrote:
Try 1 rax marine -> FE without gas. I've played against it from some good Platinum level players and can defend against early immortals and stalkers, especially with good use of bunkers. It's also easily transition-able into marauders, air, or even mech and you get an expo up ridiculously fast. Yeah, I think MorroW's old build might still be the best. Maps like Blistering Sands with the backdoor, or Scrap station with the huge distance between choke and nat (and a semi-backdoor) seem annoying tho ive actually updated my old 1rax fe build and i will soon reach 100% winratio like i did back in patch 5 but honestly i dont even enjoy playing tvp. its just mass marauder every single game. just as i predicted their shells upgrade wouldnt stop the mass marauder, it would just cause us to adjust the early game bo i rly hope they nerf the marauder, and i mean the marauder, not any upgrade tt its lame (theyd have to buff most t units tho but in the long run we would have more variety)
What's the new build/followup? Is it limited in transitions or more like forge FE where you can do many variations?
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On April 17 2010 07:25 Floophead_III wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2010 07:23 MorroW wrote:On April 17 2010 07:14 FrozenArbiter wrote:On April 17 2010 04:01 asdfTT123 wrote:
Try 1 rax marine -> FE without gas. I've played against it from some good Platinum level players and can defend against early immortals and stalkers, especially with good use of bunkers. It's also easily transition-able into marauders, air, or even mech and you get an expo up ridiculously fast. Yeah, I think MorroW's old build might still be the best. Maps like Blistering Sands with the backdoor, or Scrap station with the huge distance between choke and nat (and a semi-backdoor) seem annoying tho ive actually updated my old 1rax fe build and i will soon reach 100% winratio like i did back in patch 5 but honestly i dont even enjoy playing tvp. its just mass marauder every single game. just as i predicted their shells upgrade wouldnt stop the mass marauder, it would just cause us to adjust the early game bo i rly hope they nerf the marauder, and i mean the marauder, not any upgrade tt its lame (theyd have to buff most t units tho but in the long run we would have more variety) What's the new build/followup? Is it limited in transitions or more like forge FE where you can do many variations?
why would u wanna do variations when 2base mass marauder on 9raxes is auto win in tvp cause of the early game econ advantage
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That's ridiculous. Are you sure there's nothing toss can do? FF + coli? 3 robo immortal? Drops? Even voidrays/carriers?
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On April 17 2010 07:31 Floophead_III wrote:
That's ridiculous. Are you sure there's nothing toss can do? FF + coli? 3 robo immortal? Drops? Even voidrays/carriers?
if u hold off the rush where u went fast expo u will have so big advantage that u can do anything and ull win
its a 13nex in tvp (sc1). if u get away with it then u can do w/e u want.
the fe i have atm is probably beatable but its the best one so far in this patch that ive used
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Well that's disturbing.
That's why I advocated reducing their damage to Light to something like 8 +12, or 6 +14, rather than turn Conc Shells into an upgrade, so Terrans would actually HAVE to make Marines to break down the Zealot wall. If they still want to spam Marauders, go nuts, but they're going to have to kite all the way back into their own mineral line.
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Hang on can someone open a Protoss versus Terran thread where we go 20 pages screaming for marauder nerfs? I mean I don't know the build or anything, but I figured we might as well get a head start on these things. Then, once they nerf the marauder we can revive this thread =P
I guess there was some useful discussion in here amongst the flamewars^^
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On April 17 2010 07:23 MorroW wrote:
ive actually updated my old 1rax fe build and i will soon reach 100% winratio like i did back in patch 5
but honestly i dont even enjoy playing tvp. its just mass marauder every single game. just as i predicted their shells upgrade wouldnt stop the mass marauder, it would just cause us to adjust the early game bo
i rly hope they nerf the marauder, and i mean the marauder, not any upgrade tt its lame (theyd have to buff most t units tho but in the long run we would have more variety)
On April 17 2010 07:33 MorroW wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2010 07:31 Floophead_III wrote:
That's ridiculous. Are you sure there's nothing toss can do? FF + coli? 3 robo immortal? Drops? Even voidrays/carriers? if u hold off the rush where u went fast expo u will have so big advantage that u can do anything and ull win its a 13nex in tvp (sc1). if u get away with it then u can do w/e u want. the fe i have atm is probably beatable but its the best one so far in this patch that ive used
Can we get a replay or more detailed BO? This thread all of a sudden went from "T can't possibly ever win vs P ever in a million billion years" to the complete opposite with Morrow apparently achieving a near 100% winrate vs toss...?
I've only been following this thread for the past 10 pages or so, but I'm just totally lost.
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On April 17 2010 07:33 MorroW wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2010 07:31 Floophead_III wrote:
That's ridiculous. Are you sure there's nothing toss can do? FF + coli? 3 robo immortal? Drops? Even voidrays/carriers? if u hold off the rush where u went fast expo u will have so big advantage that u can do anything and ull win its a 13nex in tvp (sc1). if u get away with it then u can do w/e u want. the fe i have atm is probably beatable but its the best one so far in this patch that ive used
isnt properly executed 5warpgate rush going to destroy it like every time ?
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On April 17 2010 07:28 MorroW wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2010 07:25 Floophead_III wrote:On April 17 2010 07:23 MorroW wrote:On April 17 2010 07:14 FrozenArbiter wrote:On April 17 2010 04:01 asdfTT123 wrote:
Try 1 rax marine -> FE without gas. I've played against it from some good Platinum level players and can defend against early immortals and stalkers, especially with good use of bunkers. It's also easily transition-able into marauders, air, or even mech and you get an expo up ridiculously fast. Yeah, I think MorroW's old build might still be the best. Maps like Blistering Sands with the backdoor, or Scrap station with the huge distance between choke and nat (and a semi-backdoor) seem annoying tho ive actually updated my old 1rax fe build and i will soon reach 100% winratio like i did back in patch 5 but honestly i dont even enjoy playing tvp. its just mass marauder every single game. just as i predicted their shells upgrade wouldnt stop the mass marauder, it would just cause us to adjust the early game bo i rly hope they nerf the marauder, and i mean the marauder, not any upgrade tt its lame (theyd have to buff most t units tho but in the long run we would have more variety) What's the new build/followup? Is it limited in transitions or more like forge FE where you can do many variations? why would u wanna do variations when 2base mass marauder on 9raxes is auto win in tvp cause of the early game econ advantage
And the thread comes full-circle.
All protoss vindication aside, I'm glad to see top terran feeling like they have an answer to toss again. Hopefully soon we'll see TvP that isn't some kind of back and forth between marauder and immortal timing pushes.
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On April 17 2010 07:50 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:
And the thread comes full-circle.
All protoss vindication aside, I'm glad to see top terran feeling like they have an answer to toss again. Hopefully soon we'll see TvP that isn't some kind of back and forth between marauder and immortal timing pushes.
Honestly this wouldn't be too bad since that's how BW is played anyway (tank/vult and goon/zeal timing psuhes).
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Hey, I'm going to enlighten all P users who are having trouble with Marauders:
2 Gate Zealot/Sentry into 1 Stargate Voidrays.
This has been raping 20-50ish rank plat players for me.
You can kill their wall with void rays really easy, then zealot/sentry/void ray pretty much rapes marines, and MARAUDERS CANT HIT AIR (LOL).
Hope this helps.
Edit: Forgot to mention, transition into Robo and/or Templar tech seems to work nice when their Marauder ball gets thicker, and possibly Carriers later, but Gateway units and Void Rays just have so much synergy it's sick. Storm/Stalker/Sentry seems to stop Viking counters, too.
Also, I'll try and add some replays after I get some more games and have had more time to experiment with the build. But I'm saying it right now-- Void Rays are Scouts on crack. They are even viable PvZ... I just did a Liquid Nazgul PvZ opening from the TLI (Blistering Sands map) into double Stargate Void Ray with +1 ground attack chargelot/sentry/stalker push against 2 base Hydra. He added Spire when he saw my composition, so I just added a couple Phoenix and then started building more VOID RAYS so my second push crushed his third and nat, won me the game. I feel my macro is pretty good but I lose a lot of PvZs in stupid way, it seems liek Void Ray just works so much better than Robo or Templar Tech units early on. I dunno. Gateway units + Void ray for life.
TLDR; Void rays arent bad.
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On April 17 2010 08:26 Tump wrote:
Hey, I'm going to enlighten all P users who are having trouble with Marauders:
2 Gate Zealot/Sentry into 1 Stargate Voidrays.
This has been raping 20-50ish rank plat players for me.
You can kill their wall with void rays really easy, then zealot/sentry/void ray pretty much rapes marines, and MARAUDERS CANT HIT AIR (LOL).
Hope this helps.
Replay?
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On April 17 2010 07:49 Pelirrojo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2010 07:23 MorroW wrote:
ive actually updated my old 1rax fe build and i will soon reach 100% winratio like i did back in patch 5
but honestly i dont even enjoy playing tvp. its just mass marauder every single game. just as i predicted their shells upgrade wouldnt stop the mass marauder, it would just cause us to adjust the early game bo
i rly hope they nerf the marauder, and i mean the marauder, not any upgrade tt its lame (theyd have to buff most t units tho but in the long run we would have more variety) Show nested quote +On April 17 2010 07:33 MorroW wrote:On April 17 2010 07:31 Floophead_III wrote:
That's ridiculous. Are you sure there's nothing toss can do? FF + coli? 3 robo immortal? Drops? Even voidrays/carriers? if u hold off the rush where u went fast expo u will have so big advantage that u can do anything and ull win its a 13nex in tvp (sc1). if u get away with it then u can do w/e u want. the fe i have atm is probably beatable but its the best one so far in this patch that ive used Can we get a replay or more detailed BO? This thread all of a sudden went from "T can't possibly ever win vs P ever in a million billion years" to the complete opposite with Morrow apparently achieving a near 100% winrate vs toss...? I've only been following this thread for the past 10 pages or so, but I'm just totally lost.
Why would MorroW spend a big portion of his time learning and testing his build orders , just so he can hand them out to anyone that asks. Im sure he would rather keep that information to himself, and actually win games, rather than just give it out, and let other top protosses learn to counter it before even playing him.
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On April 17 2010 08:45 eXigent. wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2010 07:49 Pelirrojo wrote:On April 17 2010 07:23 MorroW wrote:
ive actually updated my old 1rax fe build and i will soon reach 100% winratio like i did back in patch 5
but honestly i dont even enjoy playing tvp. its just mass marauder every single game. just as i predicted their shells upgrade wouldnt stop the mass marauder, it would just cause us to adjust the early game bo
i rly hope they nerf the marauder, and i mean the marauder, not any upgrade tt its lame (theyd have to buff most t units tho but in the long run we would have more variety) On April 17 2010 07:33 MorroW wrote:On April 17 2010 07:31 Floophead_III wrote:
That's ridiculous. Are you sure there's nothing toss can do? FF + coli? 3 robo immortal? Drops? Even voidrays/carriers? if u hold off the rush where u went fast expo u will have so big advantage that u can do anything and ull win its a 13nex in tvp (sc1). if u get away with it then u can do w/e u want. the fe i have atm is probably beatable but its the best one so far in this patch that ive used Can we get a replay or more detailed BO? This thread all of a sudden went from "T can't possibly ever win vs P ever in a million billion years" to the complete opposite with Morrow apparently achieving a near 100% winrate vs toss...? I've only been following this thread for the past 10 pages or so, but I'm just totally lost. Why would MorroW spend a big portion of his time learning and testing his build orders , just so he can hand them out to anyone that asks. Im sure he would rather keep that information to himself, and actually win games, rather than just give it out, and let other top protosses learn to counter it before even playing him.
So the meta game changes and blizz can balance better/faster? Wouldn't you like to see balance reached faster?
If there wasn't money tournaments already i would be demanding replays but since in all likelihood giving away build orders means less money i don't expect replays from top players apart from tournament replays. Just playing devils advocate.
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On April 17 2010 08:45 eXigent. wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2010 07:49 Pelirrojo wrote:On April 17 2010 07:23 MorroW wrote:
ive actually updated my old 1rax fe build and i will soon reach 100% winratio like i did back in patch 5
but honestly i dont even enjoy playing tvp. its just mass marauder every single game. just as i predicted their shells upgrade wouldnt stop the mass marauder, it would just cause us to adjust the early game bo
i rly hope they nerf the marauder, and i mean the marauder, not any upgrade tt its lame (theyd have to buff most t units tho but in the long run we would have more variety) On April 17 2010 07:33 MorroW wrote:On April 17 2010 07:31 Floophead_III wrote:
That's ridiculous. Are you sure there's nothing toss can do? FF + coli? 3 robo immortal? Drops? Even voidrays/carriers? if u hold off the rush where u went fast expo u will have so big advantage that u can do anything and ull win its a 13nex in tvp (sc1). if u get away with it then u can do w/e u want. the fe i have atm is probably beatable but its the best one so far in this patch that ive used Can we get a replay or more detailed BO? This thread all of a sudden went from "T can't possibly ever win vs P ever in a million billion years" to the complete opposite with Morrow apparently achieving a near 100% winrate vs toss...? I've only been following this thread for the past 10 pages or so, but I'm just totally lost. Why would MorroW spend a big portion of his time learning and testing his build orders , just so he can hand them out to anyone that asks. Im sure he would rather keep that information to himself, and actually win games, rather than just give it out, and let other top protosses learn to counter it before even playing him.
Fair enough. I mean, I don't really agree with that philosophy, especially when we're only in beta... But if that's the reason he doesn't want to reveal his BO then that's his choice. I was just shocked at how quickly the thread went from "TvP is impossible" to "actually, PvT" is impossible.
I guess I will just take "1 rax FE" as a starting point and do my own experimenting from there.
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If T's finally can find good safe FE, then basically P has to transition to some kind of FE build themselves
Not sure if 1 gate FE is possible because early 1 rax mara just rapes it but if T is going rines only then it might be ok.
Maybe fast DT's into double expand might become a geniune std build order lol
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i would love it if it turns out the best way to counter morrow build is to expand yourself get a few colossus and try to contain and get your 3rd before he does.
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I still feel that immortals might be nerfed in build time or tech level or something. As we've seen from replays, it's not that they're too strong. It's simply that they come out too fast and you can never match protoss's army power early, so you can get contained really fast.
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the goal is just to create a build that survives and puts up a good fight against anything toss does. just like siege expo in sc1.
if u stop a massgateway u will be ahead and win the game, its a simple thought
the proper way how a rts game should be is that a counter to a safe expo is to expo urself to catch up rather than having a bunch of "C&C db style rock paper scissor" hard counters
im not sure if my build or any tvp build for that matter can defend all cheese yet by "scout and respond rule" but i know its the best so far, since everything else has been failing terribly lately. just watch my reps vs nightend where i desperately tried to play my old 1rax fe xd
so if it now happens to be that u can counter cheese with this build, it doesnt mean pvt is impossible. it just means ur not gonna win easily by going same 1robo3warpgate every game. hopefully this is the first step to counter fe with fe rather than counter fe with rush. if both fe i guess it will turn out to be anyones game. but if terran cant fe then terran cant win because stuff like dts or sentry with force field are just so strong 1base vs 1base that they can let u expand while terran is locked in (5sentry 2immortal and 3 zealot is never ever gonna let u down the ramp). thats why its so important that we need a fe build thats safe against all cheese
im not gonna release any reps and its best if i dont talk about this any more for now because im still not sure how good it is really. but i can imagine it being really strong and ive never lost with it where i executed it correctly yet (im low rating tho). but ill keep u guys posted of my build works or not (as in straight up play, not luck based. not as in win or lose... "without meta game abuse" as nony would say :>)
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This 4 rax FE is pretty crazy. I've steamrolled two TvPs in a row using the build when I used to feel pretty helpless.
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On April 17 2010 09:28 Niteo wrote:
This 4 rax FE is pretty crazy. I've steamrolled two TvPs in a row using the build when I used to feel pretty helpless.
i think it dies vs mass zea sentry with mass warp gates and im 100% sure it dies vs colosus rush. its v good vs immortal push tho, which is the most common build atm
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Eh, I think TvP and PvT is about even right now i mean.. I get stomped by terran as toss, but i think thats due to me just being an inferior player compared to getting alot of plat player MU when i just moved up to gold. For some reason blizz thinks that since i got promoted every damn game needs to favor the opponent.
One thing I have noticed. In a PvT match its very tempting to just hit a and click to auto attack, however i think it is probably much more efficient to group up your zealots in one group. then stalkers and immortals in another, then just stalkers and sentries in another grouping (for AA) and then everything to one as well. I know thats alot of binds, but honestly you can just send in zealots to act as your meat wall, then use your ranged (immortals/sentries/stalkers) to single target marauders down. They basically go boom in one volley or less, meaning that you basically just go click, dead, click, dead, click dead, and in the end, unless he has focusf fired you in the same manner, you will in.. but in the end it comes down to who has more invested into their army and who has better micro.
Also, I would be fine with them nerfing the +dmg to armored portion of Immortal damage if they got a decent overall dmg buff. Say 25 + 20 instead of 20+ 30? As far as build time goes though.. it really is very inefficient for a protoss to go dual robo bays. It's just too much invested and immortals are too expensive to make use of it.
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This thread is the exact reason why TvP is broken atm. This push is so good that even if they don't use it terrans have to assume they will and thus making all their OTHER strategies alot stronger too. That is the definition of an overpowered build.
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it beats the sentry warpgate stuff if you micro your bunkers correctly - i.e focus the sentrys rather than letting them stand still, while trying to repair. As for the collosus rush - i think once you are sure your pretty safe (you have 2-3 bunkers full) you should make all 4 refinerys and start teching ASAP.
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I actually wonder if you can do a quick 1 rax FE into 2 rax then plop down ghost acad + factories asap and transition into tanks/ghosts. Tanks demolish sentries and coli and fare well vs everything else. My only concern is that that's too few rax after FE and it leaves a timing window open where you can get demolished.
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If it (either the 4 rax FE or Morrow's modified FE) beats the immortal & warpgate rush when executed properly, doesn't that mean the threat of it happening will change the Protoss meta-game in PvT? A colossus rush has a number of vulnerabilities and there is a key scouting window which, if exploited, can make this match-up lopsided for Terran, thus forcing the Protoss to FE himself.
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On April 17 2010 09:36 DeMusliM wrote:
it beats the sentry warpgate stuff if you micro your bunkers correctly - i.e focus the sentrys rather than letting them stand still, while trying to repair. As for the collosus rush - i think once you are sure your pretty safe (you have 2-3 bunkers full) you should make all 4 refinerys and start teching ASAP.
i was having alot of troubles with that with my first 1rax fe back around patch 5. the colosus could walk up on cliffs dodge the bunkers go for the scvs. micro as hell and cliff abusive on most maps. was just overall a really dirty scenario. colosus did much more dmg then tho. i really doubt u can survive a colosus rush tho. u need stimpack to engage it and that should come at least 2 minutes after the colosus reach u if ur going 4rax before gas
its better econ to get earlier gas and mine for longer time before teching rather than making 4 gasses asap. i used to do 1rax then +2rax then +2 gas. going 1rax +3rax +4gas is not smart at all. so i laff at the 4rax fe tbh :p
ur probably right that 4rax fe can stop mass sentry zealot but its a tough call on some maps, and maps like blistering its not viable at all cause u can crush the backdoor. but on stuff like LT i can really imagine the 4rax fe surviving immortal push or mass zea sentry quite well
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IMO the observer is the most broken thing right now. It gives the protoss 100% knowledge about what is going on, while the terran knows almost nothing. This makes it hard for terran to be inventive with strategies based on surprise (drops, banshee etc), while the protoss is doing whatever he likes. This pretty much means that terran needs to have a "base army" that's so incredibly strong that even knowing what's comming it should be hard to beat. Not a scenario that speaks to me. If the observer was given to terran instead of protoss (I'm not suggesting this), I'm pretty sure the matchup would be imbalanced the other way around.
With scans you can "sometimes" learn what general build is going on, but at huge economic cost. It's actually better to spam barracks and suicide them into the toss base. Why most protosses are stupid and build all their tech in a blob next to the main nexus beats me, with a little bit of effort you can hide key buildings (Templar archives, Robotics support bay) and the terran is completely blind.
Make observers require further tech (Observatory like someone suggested) or remove them from the game. Maybe the observatory could have a scan feature, like Orbital Command? I know blizzard like to keep the other races distinctly different, so probably not. Just make them a more serious investment.
I agree with many that Immortals are a problem, but I think that's mainly because they are boring and not so much a balance issue. Sure, they could lose some damage, but my main problem with them is that they block out so much of the terran tech tree. Tanks and Thors are pretty much useless (except very late game) against protoss in the current state, which forces the terran to make a bio army. I'd rather have a balanced and "open" game than a balanced and "forced" game in terms of strategy.
Another thing; I would like to see AOE tuned down in general. Fights are so dependent on Storm, Colossus, EMP and Infestors now. TvP is often a game of "Can I EMP you before you blanket storm my army?". Boring and too fast. Very rarely do I see fights that are exciting like a 200 vs 180 PvT battle or a large TvZ battle in Brood War. In Sc2 it's all over in 2 seconds, and it's not the guns that kill (Not generally true but happens alot).
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On April 17 2010 09:36 DeMusliM wrote:
it beats the sentry warpgate stuff if you micro your bunkers correctly - i.e focus the sentrys rather than letting them stand still, while trying to repair. As for the collosus rush - i think once you are sure your pretty safe (you have 2-3 bunkers full) you should make all 4 refinerys and start teching ASAP.
how can u repair bunkers with ff blocking acces to them ;/
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i just watched Thisreplay, and it really made me think that something about the forcefield needs to be changed. Its just so very imba, i mean the replay isnt great, both players arent the best but it shows the abuse very well. I think changin forcefield in some way, maybe making it more like fungal growth e.g. would help balance protoss alot. Marauders got their slow to be upgraded first, roaches lost one armor, id say its time to make forcefield an upgradeable spell aswell (or guardian shield, one spell should be free, and i think forcefield is by far the better spell and it should cost some extra ressources)
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On April 17 2010 09:32 Opti wrote:
Eh, I think TvP and PvT is about even right now i mean.. I get stomped by terran as toss, but i think thats due to me just being an inferior player compared to getting alot of plat player MU when i just moved up to gold. For some reason blizz thinks that since i got promoted every damn game needs to favor the opponent.
One thing I have noticed. In a PvT match its very tempting to just hit a and click to auto attack, however i think it is probably much more efficient to group up your zealots in one group. then stalkers and immortals in another, then just stalkers and sentries in another grouping (for AA) and then everything to one as well. I know thats alot of binds, but honestly you can just send in zealots to act as your meat wall, then use your ranged (immortals/sentries/stalkers) to single target marauders down. They basically go boom in one volley or less, meaning that you basically just go click, dead, click, dead, click dead, and in the end, unless he has focusf fired you in the same manner, you will in.. but in the end it comes down to who has more invested into their army and who has better micro.
Also, I would be fine with them nerfing the +dmg to armored portion of Immortal damage if they got a decent overall dmg buff. Say 25 + 20 instead of 20+ 30? As far as build time goes though.. it really is very inefficient for a protoss to go dual robo bays. It's just too much invested and immortals are too expensive to make use of it.
Vs mech T you always drop at least 2 robo bays. I remember Idra telling me very early on in the beta when he was still toss that he'd go 2-3 robo bays vs mech. You could even drop 2 robo bays for truly mass coli in PvZ or PvT if you wanted.
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On April 17 2010 10:11 Viruuus wrote:i just watched Thisreplay, and it really made me think that something about the forcefield needs to be changed. Its just so very imba, i mean the replay isnt great, both players arent the best but it shows the abuse very well. I think changin forcefield in some way, maybe making it more like fungal growth e.g. would help balance protoss alot. Marauders got their slow to be upgraded first, roaches lost one armor, id say its time to make forcefield an upgradeable spell aswell (or guardian shield, one spell should be free, and i think forcefield is by far the better spell and it should cost some extra ressources)
That was hillarious.
Imagine what would had happpened if the toss made a a warp prism and started to zone in units directly in the Terrans base while his army was outside, he could just force field the choke and teleport in more units without giving the terran any way to get back in.
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On April 17 2010 09:58 MorroW wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2010 09:36 DeMusliM wrote:
it beats the sentry warpgate stuff if you micro your bunkers correctly - i.e focus the sentrys rather than letting them stand still, while trying to repair. As for the collosus rush - i think once you are sure your pretty safe (you have 2-3 bunkers full) you should make all 4 refinerys and start teching ASAP. i was having alot of troubles with that with my first 1rax fe back around patch 5. the colosus could walk up on cliffs dodge the bunkers go for the scvs. micro as hell and cliff abusive on most maps. was just overall a really dirty scenario. colosus did much more dmg then tho. i really doubt u can survive a colosus rush tho. u need stimpack to engage it and that should come at least 2 minutes after the colosus reach u if ur going 4rax before gas its better econ to get earlier gas and mine for longer time before teching rather than making 4 gasses asap. i used to do 1rax then +2rax then +2 gas. going 1rax +3rax +4gas is not smart at all. so i laff at the 4rax fe tbh :p ur probably right that 4rax fe can stop mass sentry zealot but its a tough call on some maps, and maps like blistering its not viable at all cause u can crush the backdoor. but on stuff like LT i can really imagine the 4rax fe surviving immortal push or mass zea sentry quite well
The reason you find it tough is because your going gas too early and don't have enough mins for the extra bunkers/marines - if he goes for backdoor, and he's deadset on rushing with 4 warpgates or what ever you just go excess on rines - and maps like blistering with a extremely tight choke, you can place a rax in front of your bunkers and almost half block the choke meaning only half the amount of zealots can fit through - if he kills your rax so what, he wasted alot of time - and you have 3 more and teching.
But yes - every strat terran can do right now feels at risk of either putting up too much defense - and then getting teched vs thus losing, or putting up too little and getting rushed. Very much a rock paper scissors jobby right now, or protoss scouting correctly.
But the bonus is - if you do go for the 4gas at the same time when you scan the robotics bay either 50% done, you can comfortably catch up by the time 9 range is done (6 range can be dealt with by bunkers/he can't play that abusively).
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I just want to add my input as a P player in here. I've played only a few games vs T the past days, but I've won all of them - mostly due to T players trying new stuff, but I guess I also upped my own game.
However, to the point: I've encountered 4 rax FE 3 times, and I've won all 3 games (I might've been just a better player than my opponent, but I doubt that. It really was too easy). T threw up 3-5 bunkers in each game so I didn't even try to break it, just expoed myself and rushed to colossi / range with all my gas as I knew I won't be attacked for a while (and even if I was, guardian shield + zeals > lol 4 dmg marines). I even expanded a bit earlier than usual in the 3rd game and I ran the T player over with superior economy just in a matter of minutes.
Doesn't matter if he tried marine / ghost or marine / marauder / medivac, results did not vary. Imo you cut yourself way too much on gas, so you won't have enough marauders for the moment you should have to push, and you can totally forget Vikings. And if T just keeps turtling I can get storm too by the time you push out...
So, summary: 4 rax FE works well in stopping gateway pushes or Immortal supported pushes on most maps (I really was at discomfort thinking about engaging those bunkers). But as MorroW pointed it out (in his theory which I tested in practice even before reading his post), it's extremely vulnerable to Colossi. All those early marines will just turn into mincemeat in the first big fight. I feel that T has no viable transition after despite the 'easy' survival and secured first expo.
In the light of DeMusliM's above post, I guess my sample size / opponent pool isn't big / decent enough
Wanna play some customs to test this out, dude?
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On April 17 2010 02:08 Darkn3ss wrote:
I wish someone (with a lot of credibility) made a thread (ONLY for people with a lot of credibility) where they can discuss balance issues and actually agree on issues that MUST be addressed and propose changes that MUST be made...
Elitist much?
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On April 17 2010 10:11 Viruuus wrote:i just watched Thisreplay, and it really made me think that something about the forcefield needs to be changed. Its just so very imba, i mean the replay isnt great, both players arent the best but it shows the abuse very well. I think changin forcefield in some way, maybe making it more like fungal growth e.g. would help balance protoss alot. Marauders got their slow to be upgraded first, roaches lost one armor, id say its time to make forcefield an upgradeable spell aswell (or guardian shield, one spell should be free, and i think forcefield is by far the better spell and it should cost some extra ressources)
I saw that replay too, it's completely recockulous.
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On April 17 2010 10:26 Floophead_III wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2010 09:32 Opti wrote:
Eh, I think TvP and PvT is about even right now i mean.. I get stomped by terran as toss, but i think thats due to me just being an inferior player compared to getting alot of plat player MU when i just moved up to gold. For some reason blizz thinks that since i got promoted every damn game needs to favor the opponent.
One thing I have noticed. In a PvT match its very tempting to just hit a and click to auto attack, however i think it is probably much more efficient to group up your zealots in one group. then stalkers and immortals in another, then just stalkers and sentries in another grouping (for AA) and then everything to one as well. I know thats alot of binds, but honestly you can just send in zealots to act as your meat wall, then use your ranged (immortals/sentries/stalkers) to single target marauders down. They basically go boom in one volley or less, meaning that you basically just go click, dead, click, dead, click dead, and in the end, unless he has focusf fired you in the same manner, you will in.. but in the end it comes down to who has more invested into their army and who has better micro.
Also, I would be fine with them nerfing the +dmg to armored portion of Immortal damage if they got a decent overall dmg buff. Say 25 + 20 instead of 20+ 30? As far as build time goes though.. it really is very inefficient for a protoss to go dual robo bays. It's just too much invested and immortals are too expensive to make use of it. Vs mech T you always drop at least 2 robo bays. I remember Idra telling me very early on in the beta when he was still toss that he'd go 2-3 robo bays vs mech. You could even drop 2 robo bays for truly mass coli in PvZ or PvT if you wanted.
I don't usually tech up to Colossus just due to the fact that it's quite an investment and their build time is so huge. However when i DO pull it off I find that it's almost a sure win unless they have gone mass air and I didnt scout like a retard. If i try to do this and get scouted doing it, the Terran player can easily do a timing push of MM Medivacs while i am trying to tech up and I will most likely lose. The real advantage here that i could see would be the 3-4 colossus to take out his largly bio army, combined with immortals to take care of any heavy mech units. The only problem with this is that it is so expensive that it leaves little room for AA, and if the Terran had scouted it, he could easily go mass banshee and overwhelm me with air.
And.. Mech T? uh.. yeah.. doesn't exist? I mean I've lost to mass thors once i think, but i was a noob and he harassed the hell out of me so my economy was crap - he could have gone anything and won.
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Mech T exists. I use it every game. I have been since the start =D
It's much more difficult and requires intimate knowledge of BW terran play which I think 99% of sc2 players know nothing about. That's why nobody does it except nostalgic players like myself who enjoy the awesome power of mass tanks!
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Demuslim, have you tried harassing the protoss with 3 Reapers? I'm only a "lowly" Bronze/Silver player but I have had great success against Protoss building 9 supply then a barracks as soon as the supply finishes (or a second or so afterwards as I am usually around 120 minerals when the supply actually finishes) While the rax is building I grab a reactor at 13/14 and usually am at just enough minerals/gas to get a techlab and OC as soon as the rax finishes.
I don't have the rest of the build exactly concrete but basically I throw another rax-tech down while the OC is building and immediately begin building a reaper when the first techlab is finished. As soon as I can afford it I begin the reaper speed upgrade, and all that's left is getting the last two reapers out of the two rax you have built. Generally I get my second reactor as well so I can tech to banshees or M&M (You can typically afford Conc Shells soon after the speed finishes - which will happen while the reapers are mid-transit to their base).
This puts three reapers in their base around the 6:00-6:30 mark in game time iirc. I don't know how well this syncs up against the immortal push but those reapers can outspeed anything he has and I can generally take out a few probes quite easily while my starport begins building.
I can upload a few replays of this if you would like but I'm not sure if I have any against a player who Immortal Pushes me.
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On April 17 2010 13:03 Floophead_III wrote:
Mech T exists. I use it every game. I have been since the start =D
It's much more difficult and requires intimate knowledge of BW terran play which I think 99% of sc2 players know nothing about. That's why nobody does it except nostalgic players like myself who enjoy the awesome power of mass tanks!
and then he blinks into your tanks while 5 immortals with 50+ shields left start shooting at your tanks/thors.
straight mech is immobile,requires AMAZING positioning, has zero mapcontrol and can be countered very easily just by building the right units and aclicking.
but if you have success with it then please share some reps. i saw FA getting DOMINATED in so many reps even when his mech-> expo style worked cause the p has mapcontrol,masses up and then wins the fight in such a rapage style (p loses 30 supply, t loses 70++) with a simple aclick that its not even funny ~~
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Multiple Reapers are a horrible idea. One Stalker is enough to completely negate that investment. Reapers are best used in the super-early game.
Oh and as for that repeating Force Field on the ramp thing...wouldn't Reapers be awesome there? Reapers can do a serious number on Sentries, real fast. It was such a rare case, though. He was out of energy on the last couple of Sentries to survive the first fight and the newly created one arrived at JUST the right time to put up another Force Field and keep the chain going.
Its not as easy to setup as you might think. I'm always on the lookout for situations like that to really F someone over with Force Field, and honestly, I've only found those situations in 2v2 where you smash through one guy's defense and continuously lock the other guy out while you smash their base in. Its a lot harder to push someone all the way back up their ramp in 1v1. God knows if he's already teching Siege Tanks to literally smash that army to smithereens in an instant. Talk about prime real estate for Siege Tank destruction. The guy in that replay didn't really do a damn thing to counter it. Just sat there fuming at the situation and built another Barracks.
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On April 17 2010 13:49 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2010 13:03 Floophead_III wrote:
Mech T exists. I use it every game. I have been since the start =D
It's much more difficult and requires intimate knowledge of BW terran play which I think 99% of sc2 players know nothing about. That's why nobody does it except nostalgic players like myself who enjoy the awesome power of mass tanks! and then he blinks into your tanks while 5 immortals with 50+ shields left start shooting at your tanks/thors. straight mech is immobile,requires AMAZING positioning, has zero mapcontrol and can be countered very easily just by building the right units and aclicking. but if you have success with it then please share some reps. i saw FA getting DOMINATED in so many reps even when his mech-> expo style worked cause the p has mapcontrol,masses up and then wins the fight in such a rapage style (p loses 30 supply, t loses 70++) with a simple aclick that its not even funny ~~
Watch the me vs orb game I posted in this thread. Orb had almost pure immortal and got slaughtered with like 30 more food in his army because his positioning was poor. Without hardened shields immortals are basically supercharged dragoons so they melt as fast as dragoons =D
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http://starcraft.gamesports.net/de/replays/
an argument that goes the other way:
white-ra just lost 1-4 to strelok
dont really know how respected white-ra is in the top-top class but i think hes definetely a great player
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Regarding the Strelok vs. White-Ra games then this thread is putting a lot of focus on the Immortal-push, 4-5 Warp Gate-push and whether Terran can get an early expansion. White-Ra only built Immortals in the LT game and only 3 of them. There were some Void Ray antics, some worker harass, but not really the standard Protoss strategies used against Terran.
White-Ra is beyond reproach skill wise, but these games didn't bring any additional information to this thread (apart from the fact that Terran can win)
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im just saying, when white ra isnt doing the 4gate, then it could mean something about how metagame has changed for TvP since this thread was opened
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On April 18 2010 01:25 Viruuus wrote:
im just saying, when white ra isnt doing the 4gate, then it could mean something about how metagame has changed for TvP since this thread was opened
not rly. he eleminated morrow from esl with 4warp gate rush today.
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8748 Posts
On April 18 2010 00:53 Nilaus wrote:
Regarding the Strelok vs. White-Ra games then this thread is putting a lot of focus on the Immortal-push, 4-5 Warp Gate-push and whether Terran can get an early expansion. White-Ra only built Immortals in the LT game and only 3 of them. There were some Void Ray antics, some worker harass, but not really the standard Protoss strategies used against Terran.
White-Ra is beyond reproach skill wise, but these games didn't bring any additional information to this thread (apart from the fact that Terran can win)
This conclusion is only correct if you assume White-Ra is ignorant of Immortal pushes and Warpgate rushes. I think White-Ra knows these strategies and has a good reason for not doing them. Of course, more useful information for this thread would involve White-Ra doing Immortal pushes and Warpgate rushes to the best of his ability and failing. But his choice not to do those things implies that he thinks they would have failed.
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8748 Posts
On April 18 2010 01:25 Viruuus wrote:
im just saying, when white ra isnt doing the 4gate, then it could mean something about how metagame has changed for TvP since this thread was opened
Really unlikely that it's the metagame changing with this caliber of players. I'm sure they are simply discovering new things with their strategies, builds and counters.
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Whatever your skillevel, whenever there is a "free-win", abusing it 100% will lead to stagnation of your game. If you feel it is so powerful that it will get nerfed, then someone like white-ra will definately want to practice other ways to play the match-up.
What I am saying is that regardless of whether this is an imbalanced situation or not, white-ra not using it doesn't tell us anything. Sure, if we see great players using it and losing, that would be something else.
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It seems to me that there is the huge problem that Terran cannot fight the standard protoss unit composition in a cost efficient way. There is not really a much better option than trying hit and run with marauders or playing standard in an open battle, but there should be ways to make more out of your units than a-clicking with a little bit of fine tuning. Such as having well positioned tanks as part of a unit composition but that doesn't really give one much of an advantage. 2 or 3 Ghosts do, but not enough sadly.
In these situations, Gateway units simply are too cost efficient compared to terran units right now.
Either that has to be changed or there must be some other way to fight.
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Regarding the initial Protoss robo push, here is something I have done recently with rather good success. I build a Ghost Academy as soon as I have 50 gas as well as a second refinery, next 25 gas is techlab on Barracks. When the Academy finishes start one ghost.
When the push comes you will have an EMP ready, more likely you will have 2 because the super early Ghost will be building up energy all the time. Since most ramps are small you will hit a good amount of units and hopefully fend off the push.
I continue with Marauder/Upgrades and start my CC in my base asap as well as a second Ghost, floating it over and pushing out as soon as I have 3 EMPs and stim.
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On April 18 2010 02:55 dustdust wrote:
Regarding the initial Protoss robo push, here is something I have done recently with rather good success. I build a Ghost Academy as soon as I have 50 gas, next 25 gas is techlab on Barracks. When the Academy finishes start one ghost.
When the push comes you will have an EMP ready, more likely you will have 2 because the super early Ghost will be building up energy all the time. Since most ramps are small you will hit a good amount of units and hopefully fend off the push.
I continue with Marauder/Ghost/Upgrades and start my CC in my base asap, floating it over and pushing out as soon as I have 4 EMPs.
Actually some protoss' discovered scouting and will make a little go with first 3, 4, 5 units and crush you.
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On April 18 2010 02:58 T33K3SS3LCH3N wrote:
Actually some protoss' discovered scouting and will make a little go with first 3, 4, 5 units and crush you.
Protoss has no clue what Terran is doing until they have an observer. All they see is 2 depots and a Barracks with tech-lab.
If the Protoss gets a probe in before the wall is ready you obviously delay the Academy until the probe is dead.
I had no problem so far fending off early agression behind my wall as one can start marauder production as soon as the first ghost finishes. Building a bunker which you can salvage later on is always an option, too.
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I don't know about you guys... but I can't win vs. a Terran that goes mass banshee/viking
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On April 18 2010 03:18 Raydog wrote:
I don't know about you guys... but I can't win vs. a Terran that goes mass banshee/viking
build 2 phoenixes early on and contain the terran, meanwhile take an economic advantage and get teh mass blink stalker with HT production rolling.
this is to what i lose when i go mass air vs p.
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On April 18 2010 03:18 Raydog wrote:
I don't know about you guys... but I can't win vs. a Terran that goes mass banshee/viking
phonix owns viking :p if he mass air u can just mass phonix and its eze win
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How do you come to this conclusion?
Viking: 150/75
Phoenix: 150/100
A 1on1 fight between phoenix and viking ends with a draw if the viking has first hit (which he always has because of its range)
And: Viking has shorter build time and can be reactor-pumped.
So Viking > Phoenix
In fact, Viking > Toss Air in a pure airbattle
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On April 18 2010 05:02 MorroW wrote:
both of them r light
Viking is armored.
Just go test it like I did, Viking and Phoenix are even in a fight while the Viking is cheaper and builds faster.
Phoenixes don't own Vikings, Sir.
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On April 18 2010 03:43 dustdust wrote:
How do you come to this conclusion?
Viking: 150/75
Phoenix: 150/100
A 1on1 fight between phoenix and viking ends with a draw if the viking has first hit (which he always has because of its range)
And: Viking has shorter build time and can be reactor-pumped.
So Viking > Phoenix
In fact, Viking > Toss Air in a pure airbattle
I played against Protoss with air and lost once, not because my Vikings were weaker than Phoenix, but purely because of the meta game. You need to account both Banshees and Stalkers during this fight, and you will see why P has an upper hand;
Scenario 1: If P focuses Vikings first with Stalkers and Phoenixes, he will get all Vikings but loses Stalkers to Banshees. Because Banshees cannot attack air, Phoenixes take care of them.
Scenario 2: If P focuses Banshees first with Stalkers and Phoenixes, he will get all Banshees but loses Phoenixes to Vikings. Because Vikings cannot win against Stalkers, Stalkers will take care of Vikings.
In both scenarios, P will win the battle! The problem is, because Banshees can only attack ground and Vikings can only attack air while in Fighter mode, P has the firsthand choice of choosing which units to focus on, and will eventually win the battle.
T actually has a chance of winning if he takes out an observer and Banshee goes cloacked mode. I won the first two battles barely with this method, but lost in the third battle because I couldn't find observers quickly and lost the game there.
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I guess I'll try going with a lot of phoenix. all I know is they go mass banshee/viking with M&M ground army, very hard to beat. maybe just a mix of phoenix/stalker/sentry/zealot with charge and maybe blink
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On April 18 2010 05:02 MorroW wrote:
viking is 2*(10+4vsarmored) and phonix is 2*(5+4vslight)
both of them r light
so viking do 20 dmg and phonix 18
phonix 180 life and viking 125, both 0 armor
the phonix attacks about 50% faster. sorry but the phonix owns the viking hard. its alot faster so once u catch the banshee and viking he cant escape
the tooltip even says Strong Against viking :d
dont talk unless ur sure of what ur talking about
erm. no. practically all of that is wrong.
viking is 10 + 4 v. armored and hits twice.
phoenix is 5+5 v. light and also hits twice
both of them are not light. viking is armored, while phoenix is light. neither gets their bonus against each other.
so viking does 20 damage and phoenix does 10. phoenix does attack about 50% faster and is faster in terms of movespeed, but viking has superior range and damage. Phoenix takes 13 hits to kill a viking while a viking takes 9 hits to kill a phoenix. So in a straight up 1v1 Phoenix v. Viking fight the phoenix will win, but it won't "own the viking hard." In addition, Phoenix are more expensive, build slower and Vikings can be reactor pumped.
don't talk unless ur sure of what ur talking about
@mrlie3: So you're saying Toss can have a nice unit combination of air units and ground units but Terran can only go pure air? nice logic there. Throw in some marauders in the mix (and there will always be marauders) and Terran will "win both battles."
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On April 18 2010 05:02 MorroW wrote:
dont talk unless ur sure of what ur talking about
Probably wanna take your own advice there, the viking is definitly armored.
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Oh god, this should be a serious discussion and people here are posting wrong armor types, etc.. This thread is so derailed, gonna stop read right here probably.
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On April 18 2010 05:45 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2010 05:02 MorroW wrote:
dont talk unless ur sure of what ur talking about Probably wanna take your own advice there, the viking is definitly armored.
oh ye man u guys r right. im definitely gonna double check up on things next time, i feel like such an idiot now :/ im such a hypocrite, sorry about that. removed my post there ^^
i havent actually played mass air vs toss in a few weeks but back when i used to do it tosses seemed to respond with phonix anyway
stalker along with sentry is pretty good vs banshee once u get this guardian shield going cause it removes 4 dmg from the banshee. but i dunno, stalker doesnt actually do extra dmg vs banshee so i wouldnt really call them a counter at all. its quite a hard question to say how u counter mass air.
storm miss, sentry die fast and can be kited by banshee range, phonix (just in) do soso vs viking and stalker r bad vs banshee if u compare their costs. i guess their only weak point is that its gas intense but vikings got changed in recent patch to cost more mineral and less gas and also vs mass air terran toss must build AA, which all of them costs gas. except cannon if u wanna count that xd
all and all i just feel like banshees r stronger than they should be. i mean air units should be weaker in battle because they have so good mobility but units like banshee can just straight up battle the toss army
i guess the weak moment of a terran who mass air is when hes actually teching up to it, ill bet timing attacks could stop it before he actually has enough of them, banshee take 60 sec to build which is quite alot
so i think the reason why were not seeing mass air in tvp is beacuse u cant really 1base air, thats cheese afaik. and u cant really go expansion then bunker up and get air, cause ull get run over by some 1base toss.
what u probably could do is if ur going fe and toss is going fe, THEN go mass air, that should probably be good. ill see if i can try play this some but im afraid i must add raxes before im able to scout if toss is going expo or not (its quite hard for t to scout when going expo thats why its hard to adapt in this way)
On April 18 2010 05:55 Everlong wrote:
Oh god, this should be a serious discussion and people here are posting wrong armor types, etc.. This thread is so derailed, gonna stop read right here probably.
no please dont stop read just cause of 1 screwup post lol
1 time is no time right? xd
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On April 18 2010 06:04 MorroW wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2010 05:45 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:On April 18 2010 05:02 MorroW wrote:
dont talk unless ur sure of what ur talking about Probably wanna take your own advice there, the viking is definitly armored. oh ye man u guys r right. im definitely gonna double check up on things next time, i feel like such an idiot now :/ im such a hypocrite, sorry about that. removed my post there ^^ i havent actually played mass air vs toss in a few weeks but back when i used to do it tosses seemed to respond with phonix anyway stalker along with sentry is pretty good vs banshee once u get this guardian shield going cause it removes 4 dmg from the banshee. but i dunno, stalker doesnt actually do extra dmg vs banshee so i wouldnt really call them a counter at all. its quite a hard question to say how u counter mass air. storm miss, sentry die fast and can be kited by banshee range, phonix (just in) do soso vs viking and stalker r bad vs banshee if u compare their costs. i guess their only weak point is that its gas intense but vikings got changed in recent patch to cost more mineral and less gas and also vs mass air terran toss must build AA, which all of them costs gas. except cannon if u wanna count that xd all and all i just feel like banshees r stronger than they should be. i mean air units should be weaker in battle because they have so good mobility but units like banshee can just straight up battle the toss army i guess the weak moment of a terran who mass air is when hes actually teching up to it, ill bet timing attacks could stop it before he actually has enough of them, banshee take 60 sec to build which is quite alot so i think the reason why were not seeing mass air in tvp is beacuse u cant really 1base air, thats cheese afaik. and u cant really go expansion then bunker up and get air, cause ull get run over by some 1base toss. what u probably could do is if ur going fe and toss is going fe, THEN go mass air, that should probably be good. ill see if i can try play this some but im afraid i must add raxes before im able to scout if toss is going expo or not (its quite hard for t to scout when going expo thats why its hard to adapt in this way) Show nested quote +On April 18 2010 05:55 Everlong wrote:
Oh god, this should be a serious discussion and people here are posting wrong armor types, etc.. This thread is so derailed, gonna stop read right here probably. no please dont stop read just cause of 1 screwup post lol 1 time is no time right? xd
The phoenix response to 2 port T play is so strong because it lets you kill off T's first two banshees, which gives you an easy expo. T can bunker expo as well given that you won't have immortals or collosi to punish a rine heavy force, but he won't be able to harrass properly for a while which definetely puts you ahead.
Timing attacks can work, but they're very map and micro dependent on both sides, so I'm not 100% certain that certain pushes work or don't.
Phoenixes aren't good vs viking heavy T-air, though.
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Early pressure by protoss will force you to use your first banshee to defend. If toss goes robo you'll have to kill off the immortals, which will buy time for toss. Most toss will already have an obs out, but worst case they are starting one. 4 warpgate can pump out so many stalkers that I don't see how you can hold their attack. Even if you could, you'd never be able to get enough banshees to kill stalkers.
Protoss allins right now are too strong. Defending vs one often puts you at risk for the other, so if you misscout you'll lose. Additionally if you turtle too hard they can outeco you anyways.
It's a byproduct of chronoboost. Protoss gets their economy running much faster, and gets more units out faster, giving them a timing window where they're much stronger than terran. Protoss units additionally are strong out of the box, especially sentries. Guardian shield makes marines absolutely worthless.
They need to tone down some stuff for protoss to give terran a chance of breaking early pressure. You'll notice that when protoss doesn't go ultra aggressive allin terran doesn't look so weak. It's just these super aggressive allins that are the issue.
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On April 18 2010 06:52 Floophead_III wrote:
Early pressure by protoss will force you to use your first banshee to defend. If toss goes robo you'll have to kill off the immortals, which will buy time for toss. Most toss will already have an obs out, but worst case they are starting one. 4 warpgate can pump out so many stalkers that I don't see how you can hold their attack. Even if you could, you'd never be able to get enough banshees to kill stalkers.
Protoss allins right now are too strong. Defending vs one often puts you at risk for the other, so if you misscout you'll lose. Additionally if you turtle too hard they can outeco you anyways.
It's a byproduct of chronoboost. Protoss gets their economy running much faster, and gets more units out faster, giving them a timing window where they're much stronger than terran. Protoss units additionally are strong out of the box, especially sentries. Guardian shield makes marines absolutely worthless.
They need to tone down some stuff for protoss to give terran a chance of breaking early pressure. You'll notice that when protoss doesn't go ultra aggressive allin terran doesn't look so weak. It's just these super aggressive allins that are the issue.
Agreed. If the game is allowed to get to mid-late game then Terran has plenty of options to crush Protoss and the game gets pretty even and balanced. The early game definitely needs to be fixed.
I personally think that the fix should come in the form of buffing Terran (at least for the most part) rather than nerfing Protoss because many of the things that make Protoss so strong against Terran is absolutely needed for Protoss to survive against Zerg.
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On April 18 2010 06:52 Floophead_III wrote:
They need to tone down some stuff for protoss to give terran a chance of breaking early pressure. You'll notice that when protoss doesn't go ultra aggressive allin terran doesn't look so weak. It's just these super aggressive allins that are the issue.
Didn't really see much of that today(all-in), though some terran were taken down by toss in the Liquid vs EG series, I think a lot of it had to do with T being very passive in the transition from their expo to actually creating pressure and establishing another expo.
It looks like once these players get more comfortable making the transition and responding to P, there won't be as much of a threat from anything but the all-in pushes (which these opens are designed to beat..). We've seen a pretty even give and take from TvP over the last week since this thread was started in terms of tourney games. I don't think we can write it all off just yet. There have been strong and sloppy matches on both sides of the table. But, it will be interesting to see what blizzard has rolled into the next patch.
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Here's my thinking:
In BW there was only one way to get useful fighting units onto the battlefield early, and that was with more gateways. There was the possibility of DTs or reaver or shuttle bulldog style play, but you could defend vs all of them with the same basic set of units. Marines/tanks/turrets/vulture+ mines. Some combo of those allowed you to defend vs any type of protoss opening.
In SC2 you have the 4 warpgate push, immortal 3 warpgate push, immortal drop, and even other things that people don't use often like coli drop and dt. Right now terran does not have an answer to all these different builds with 1 build. Even if protoss can't kill you, if you went the wrong build you'll be stuck waiting for the right tech to move out, or even contained indefinitely. Protoss doesn't need to expand immediately if he can keep you in your base forever.
On a side note: Huk vs Drewbie should prove how garbage T mass air is. Stalkers + blink + obs isn't even fair.
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quick derail:
how viable would an open choke be, but camped by a bunker with 2+ reapers (5.5 range, 2x 9dmg vs light each), basically "inviting" a zealot/sentry push in? maybe a bunker before the ramp, then transferring the reapers to another bunker within the main with the help of their jetpack - once they have passed the first one?
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going pheonix is good vs terran mass air because they RAPE banshees and also, it forces the T to make mass vikings which are pretty much useless, if the t has to make 10 vikings after his first 4 banshees, well p wont be scared of 4 banshees and can just mass expo
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I havnt actually lost to a terran doing FE build ever since i learned to do proper 4gate pushes
immortal is still useful vs a marine heavy FE terran cause of bunkers (ofc if you try and react with FE yourself prepare to die to mass marauders) but i guess most of the TVP i have seen (where the T doesnt just die in 1base vs 1base) is basically defend the FE and win, or fail and gg
I'm pretty sure colossi rush is too slow (and too crappy vs bunkers) to be any good at breaking a terran who FE's though i will have to try it out a few more times.
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Yeah in TvP it is required now to harass or you will fall behind quickly. Same with zerg in my opinion. I personally like TvP because I 9 supply 11 barracks/gas reaper to damage eco and while I'm mircoing transition my harass to banshee or medivac hellion drop. I constantly harass while making a 2 tanks for protection and building a mmm(stim+ concussive shell) army w/ a transition to bc depending on if toss goes colli. With how it is now it is vital to constantly harass and make sure toss does not have enough minerals and gas when they want to push thus smaller army when they push. Basicly how it is right now terran has to use it harass units to the best of their ability and do as much damage to eco. as possible or lose.
This whole time I one base which is not good, but I wait until after they push or sneak an expo when I expand against toss. I have also made forced myself to make turrets by my supply/2 command/2 ramp so DT don't destroy me.
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I'm only in copper league and a real noob to RTS online gaming.
However, I see a lot of "Protoss imba" threads and little to back this up, other than complaints about immortals or warp-gates from non-Protoss players.
Could someone (or many people) please post pics of their higher level ladder rankings? Eg, Platinum & Gold top 25 or so.
If Protoss are indeed imbalanced, we should see a lot of Protoss people at the top of the ladders.
In my own copper league, as you get higher it's mostly Terrans and Zerg, with a couple of Protoss in the top 8 ranks. I've gone from always winning only against Protoss, to losing to Protoss and killing several Zerg and Terran players in a row now that I've got a lot of practice against them.
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Theres no reason to expo before toss...why so greedy? Have any of you looked at the handy income menu? With terran mules, you're ahead of P in terms of minerals until they get two full bases.
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On April 18 2010 08:38 duckhunt wrote:
going pheonix is good vs terran mass air because they RAPE banshees and also, it forces the T to make mass vikings which are pretty much useless, if the t has to make 10 vikings after his first 4 banshees, well p wont be scared of 4 banshees and can just mass expo
It doesn't force Terran to make mass vikings. Phoenix can't attack ground so they're not really all that useful and simple Marines with stim absolutely rape Phoenix easily. Also, Phoenix are light so Thors get their bonus damage against them as well. I'm not saying people should use Thors as a counter to Phoenix, they could, but I'm just merely pointing out that Toss going Phoenix doesn't mean Terran needs to get Vikings.
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Sweden33719 Posts
stalker along with sentry is pretty good vs banshee once u get this guardian shield going cause it removes 4 dmg from the banshee. but i dunno, stalker doesnt actually do extra dmg vs banshee so i wouldnt really call them a counter at all. its quite a hard question to say how u counter mass air.
storm miss, sentry die fast and can be kited by banshee range, phonix (just in) do soso vs viking and stalker r bad vs banshee if u compare their costs. i guess their only weak point is that its gas intense but vikings got changed in recent patch to cost more mineral and less gas and also vs mass air terran toss must build AA, which all of them costs gas. except cannon if u wanna count that xd
Pretty sure feedback is brutal vs banshees =_=;;;
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On April 19 2010 12:17 FrozenArbiter wrote:Show nested quote +stalker along with sentry is pretty good vs banshee once u get this guardian shield going cause it removes 4 dmg from the banshee. but i dunno, stalker doesnt actually do extra dmg vs banshee so i wouldnt really call them a counter at all. its quite a hard question to say how u counter mass air.
storm miss, sentry die fast and can be kited by banshee range, phonix (just in) do soso vs viking and stalker r bad vs banshee if u compare their costs. i guess their only weak point is that its gas intense but vikings got changed in recent patch to cost more mineral and less gas and also vs mass air terran toss must build AA, which all of them costs gas. except cannon if u wanna count that xd Pretty sure feedback is brutal vs banshees =_=;;;
Also pretty sure you shouldn't even need HT vs banshees because it's basically impossible for T to expo without catching you massively off guard with them. They provide a very small timing window of map control but once P regains control he'll just go and rape your expos at will because you don't have a real army. =/
But yes, feedback rapes banshees.
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I'm curious to hear opinions on the Jinro vs Inka games (Team EG vs TL).
Game 1: http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/6255169
Game 2: http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/6255848
Jinro went a 1Rax FE, then added 2 Rax to transition into 2 Fac both games. Basically going mass marines and tanks with ghosts.
He ended up losing both games due to not being able to secure a third expo.
What do you guys think Jinro did wrong? His positioning was pretty good, but both times he was overrun by the Protoss ball.
Would getting Hellions instead of Marines as a mineral dump be better? and then harassing more with those Hellions (runbys, drops, etc)? Were his EMPs not effective (he missed a few) and maybe better control of his ghosts would have won him the game?
Or was Jinro simply outplayed by Inka?
It seems like there is so much more to do as a Terran if he goes mech.
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On April 18 2010 08:00 Floophead_III wrote:
Here's my thinking:
In BW there was only one way to get useful fighting units onto the battlefield early, and that was with more gateways. There was the possibility of DTs or reaver or shuttle bulldog style play, but you could defend vs all of them with the same basic set of units. Marines/tanks/turrets/vulture+ mines. Some combo of those allowed you to defend vs any type of protoss opening.
In SC2 you have the 4 warpgate push, immortal 3 warpgate push, immortal drop, and even other things that people don't use often like coli drop and dt. Right now terran does not have an answer to all these different builds with 1 build. Even if protoss can't kill you, if you went the wrong build you'll be stuck waiting for the right tech to move out, or even contained indefinitely. Protoss doesn't need to expand immediately if he can keep you in your base forever.
On a side note: Huk vs Drewbie should prove how garbage T mass air is. Stalkers + blink + obs isn't even fair.
lol such BS. Terran who knows how to abuse mass air shouldn't lose any head-to-head battles unless he fucks up or is fighting templar with good storm. if you watched one of the games today, you would know point defense drone from raven completely shuts down toss AA (stalkers and phoenix). drop 2-3 of those and your banshees get 10-15 seconds of invincibility, in which you can easily kill 1/2+ of the toss army.
Plus sniping obs is the easiest and most obnoxious thing ever as terran, so toss can't even fight you in the open. (9 range vikings, simply scan and a-move if they have no other air units or just target it if they do)
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So what you're saying is HuK didn't completely dominate Drewbie even though Drewbie put up a hidden expo and had it up for a while?
I like people who ignore facts and pretend they understand this game.
Terran does not have the resources for multiple ravens, a fleet of banshees, and vikings off 1 base. Terran needs substantial time on multiple bases, time he won't have because stalkers with blink shift the pressure back way too quickly if P is not caught completely off guard.
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On April 19 2010 14:52 Chen wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2010 08:00 Floophead_III wrote:
Here's my thinking:
In BW there was only one way to get useful fighting units onto the battlefield early, and that was with more gateways. There was the possibility of DTs or reaver or shuttle bulldog style play, but you could defend vs all of them with the same basic set of units. Marines/tanks/turrets/vulture+ mines. Some combo of those allowed you to defend vs any type of protoss opening.
In SC2 you have the 4 warpgate push, immortal 3 warpgate push, immortal drop, and even other things that people don't use often like coli drop and dt. Right now terran does not have an answer to all these different builds with 1 build. Even if protoss can't kill you, if you went the wrong build you'll be stuck waiting for the right tech to move out, or even contained indefinitely. Protoss doesn't need to expand immediately if he can keep you in your base forever.
On a side note: Huk vs Drewbie should prove how garbage T mass air is. Stalkers + blink + obs isn't even fair. lol such BS. Terran who knows how to abuse mass air shouldn't lose any head-to-head battles unless he fucks up or is fighting templar with good storm. if you watched one of the games today, you would know point defense drone from raven completely shuts down toss AA (stalkers and phoenix). drop 2-3 of those and your banshees get 10-15 seconds of invincibility, in which you can easily kill 1/2+ of the toss army. Plus sniping obs is the easiest and most obnoxious thing ever as terran, so toss can't even fight you in the open. (9 range vikings, simply scan and a-move if they have no other air units or just target it if they do)
If Terran has to abuse mass air evverry single TvP...there's something wrong. That's what we're trying to fix by having these discussions. So that there is more options/variety.
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On April 19 2010 14:57 jamvng wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 14:52 Chen wrote:On April 18 2010 08:00 Floophead_III wrote:
Here's my thinking:
In BW there was only one way to get useful fighting units onto the battlefield early, and that was with more gateways. There was the possibility of DTs or reaver or shuttle bulldog style play, but you could defend vs all of them with the same basic set of units. Marines/tanks/turrets/vulture+ mines. Some combo of those allowed you to defend vs any type of protoss opening.
In SC2 you have the 4 warpgate push, immortal 3 warpgate push, immortal drop, and even other things that people don't use often like coli drop and dt. Right now terran does not have an answer to all these different builds with 1 build. Even if protoss can't kill you, if you went the wrong build you'll be stuck waiting for the right tech to move out, or even contained indefinitely. Protoss doesn't need to expand immediately if he can keep you in your base forever.
On a side note: Huk vs Drewbie should prove how garbage T mass air is. Stalkers + blink + obs isn't even fair. lol such BS. Terran who knows how to abuse mass air shouldn't lose any head-to-head battles unless he fucks up or is fighting templar with good storm. if you watched one of the games today, you would know point defense drone from raven completely shuts down toss AA (stalkers and phoenix). drop 2-3 of those and your banshees get 10-15 seconds of invincibility, in which you can easily kill 1/2+ of the toss army. Plus sniping obs is the easiest and most obnoxious thing ever as terran, so toss can't even fight you in the open. (9 range vikings, simply scan and a-move if they have no other air units or just target it if they do) If Terran has to abuse mass air evverry single TvP...there's something wrong. That's what we're trying to fix by having these discussions. So that there is more options/variety.
You should watch the Strelok replays i linked, none of them are mass air.
On April 19 2010 14:30 jamvng wrote:I'm curious to hear opinions on the Jinro vs Inka games (Team EG vs TL). Game 1: http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/6255169Game 2: http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/6255848Jinro went a 1Rax FE, then added 2 Rax to transition into 2 Fac both games. Basically going mass marines and tanks with ghosts. He ended up losing both games due to not being able to secure a third expo. What do you guys think Jinro did wrong? His positioning was pretty good, but both times he was overrun by the Protoss ball. Would getting Hellions instead of Marines as a mineral dump be better? and then harassing more with those Hellions (runbys, drops, etc)? Were his EMPs not effective (he missed a few) and maybe better control of his ghosts would have won him the game? Or was Jinro simply outplayed by Inka? It seems like there is so much more to do as a Terran if he goes mech.
There were multipul opportunities missed by Jinro in those games to capitolize on. I'm assuming he's just getting to know that particular build and Inka was very much on top of his game. Despite those issues he still performed strongly against Inka and I wouldn't call either of the game a land-slide victory.
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On April 19 2010 14:30 jamvng wrote:I'm curious to hear opinions on the Jinro vs Inka games (Team EG vs TL). Game 1: http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/6255169Game 2: http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/6255848Jinro went a 1Rax FE, then added 2 Rax to transition into 2 Fac both games. Basically going mass marines and tanks with ghosts. He ended up losing both games due to not being able to secure a third expo. What do you guys think Jinro did wrong? His positioning was pretty good, but both times he was overrun by the Protoss ball. Would getting Hellions instead of Marines as a mineral dump be better? and then harassing more with those Hellions (runbys, drops, etc)? Were his EMPs not effective (he missed a few) and maybe better control of his ghosts would have won him the game? Or was Jinro simply outplayed by Inka? It seems like there is so much more to do as a Terran if he goes mech.
I believe Jinro made a post about that in either this thread or the clanwars thread.
Basically he said that he probably overcompensated in terms of turtling because during his practice games he would get owned every time he moved out too early.
I think Jinro had a very good chance in both of the games, especially the one on Blistering Sands if he didn't miss as many EMPs and such :\
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You can snipe out the Point defense Drone with Focus Fire and all attacks at the same time, then switch to Banshees or whatever. Little Mikro huge Swing in your favour. So do´t complain about them being too powerful
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On April 19 2010 15:21 Tyrannon wrote:
So do´t complain about them being too powerful
Oh sweet irony.
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I'm not sure why you would make such a broad statement when the only game that seemed somewhat normal was lost temple. All the other games were with either void ray rushes or fast twilight councils.
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On April 19 2010 15:34 RivalryRedux wrote:I'm not sure why you would make such a broad statement when the only game that seemed somewhat normal was lost temple. All the other games were with either void ray rushes or fast twilight councils.
I'm not sure why you would make the even broader statement that you understand what "normal" TvP looks like after 2 weeks of this patch.
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On April 19 2010 15:19 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 14:30 jamvng wrote:I'm curious to hear opinions on the Jinro vs Inka games (Team EG vs TL). Game 1: http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/6255169Game 2: http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/6255848Jinro went a 1Rax FE, then added 2 Rax to transition into 2 Fac both games. Basically going mass marines and tanks with ghosts. He ended up losing both games due to not being able to secure a third expo. What do you guys think Jinro did wrong? His positioning was pretty good, but both times he was overrun by the Protoss ball. Would getting Hellions instead of Marines as a mineral dump be better? and then harassing more with those Hellions (runbys, drops, etc)? Were his EMPs not effective (he missed a few) and maybe better control of his ghosts would have won him the game? Or was Jinro simply outplayed by Inka? It seems like there is so much more to do as a Terran if he goes mech. I believe Jinro made a post about that in either this thread or the clanwars thread. Basically he said that he probably overcompensated in terms of turtling because during his practice games he would get owned every time he moved out too early. I think Jinro had a very good chance in both of the games, especially the one on Blistering Sands if he didn't miss as many EMPs and such :\
oooo which thread is this? I can't find it through search..
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Just watched the 5 replays. Aside the 2 void ray rushes, these games were pretty educational. See it done and practice 100x over to get it right.
Strelok did the 1rax FE into 4rax quite flawlessly. I think the biggest difference between Jinro's game and Strelok's was that Strelok stuck with a conventional unit composition and was very aggressive. Jinro, on the other hand, made a few timing mistakes.
However, there can be some things said about WhiteRa's play. He had a weird unit composition and seemed to do the strongest when he had his first immortal out on lost temple. In my opinion, he just pushed out too early and did mess up by shooting that stray scv with his immortals.
Other things of notice was that hellion drop and 2 starport play. Although I think the vikings were only effective because WhiteRa voidray rushed.
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On April 19 2010 15:38 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:
I'm not sure why you would make the even broader statement that you understand what "normal" TvP looks like after 2 weeks of this patch.
I meant normal as in commonly seen rather than the "right" way to play. It's not too common to see void ray rushes or fast twilight council/zealot leg/dt play so if it doesn't work, especially when the games end in 10 minutes, it's not going to change how everyone sees the match up.
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Bring tanks down to 2 food and we should be good to go I think.
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On April 19 2010 16:28 RivalryRedux wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 15:38 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:
I'm not sure why you would make the even broader statement that you understand what "normal" TvP looks like after 2 weeks of this patch. I meant normal as in commonly seen rather than the "right" way to play. It's not too common to see void ray rushes or fast twilight council/zealot leg/dt play so if it doesn't work, especially when the games end in 10 minutes, it's not going to change how everyone sees the match up.
On the contrary i'd say VR rushing is not atypical for toss in this patch, and who is to say he wasn't just responding to what he thought would be a fast banshee anyhow? Point being: WhiteRa's strats were not deliberately silly and he micro'd fairly well in all games with a few mistakes.
You cannot just write these replays off because the outcomes didn't support your "terran is underpowered" thesis.
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imo sentires are the blame for all of this
nerf sentries = more effective marines = hold immortal push easier = force protoss to tech faster and not push as hard
nerfing sentries would also help zvp, because ZVP is now full of immortal pushes as well.
in fact all i think protoss do is immortal timing attacks. So boring. Please nerf sentries so that small units can operate against immortals and make the timing protoss push more difficult to execute.
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On the contrary i'd say VR rushing is not atypical for toss in this patch, and who is to say he wasn't just responding to what he thought would be a fast banshee anyhow? Point being: WhiteRa's strats were not deliberately silly and he micro'd fairly well in all games with a few mistakes.
Void ray rushing isn't unheard of but it's obviously not going to represent a large portion of the match up. As far as the rest I didn't say anything about micro and not common ! = deliberately silly.
You cannot just write these replays off because the outcomes didn't support your "terran is underpowered" thesis.
Uhhh.... Look in the mirror? I'm not the one saying X race is great/bad or anything about TvP/PvT being unbalanced.
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The Problem i see in 4RaxFE is the vulnerability of your main.
He´ll pressure you with Zealots+Sentries making you spend a lots of minerals and then doing something funky to your Main.
Expansion
+
Colossi Drop
DT Drop
Warpins
Stalker with Blink
Whatever works best for your Base since he can scout it with an Observer.
If you want to defend that, you´ll end up spending way too much in Defense. Protoss will go Steamrolling over you.
Did I miss something?
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Well i have to say that i reaaally liked the build that jinro did in TL vs EG clan match. On bs there was a problem with his 2nd expo. I can blame the map and him cuz he missed quiet a few EMPs. Also mby he could take his 2nd expo faster? Dunno... if someone knows what he said about it plz quote it for me
edit: nvm, found it
can quote it for you guys if anyone havent seen it yet
+ Show Spoiler +On April 18 2010 09:47 FrozenArbiter wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2010 06:40 SoLaR[i.C] wrote:![[image loading]](http://img532.imageshack.us/img532/3418/teamegcheerful.png) On April 18 2010 06:39 ZaaaaaM wrote:
Damn, Jinro played so damn well and still lost. His EMPs could be a lot better but damn, TvP needs a bit of tweaking imo. Agreed. I think that it's VERY tough for Terran to do any sort of harassment/do anything other than play defensively when both play straight up. Protoss seems to just expand and it's damn near impossible to beat an army with combined Storm + Immortals. EMPs can only do so much. I don't know, I don't think I can blame this one on imbalance. I think tanks SHOULD be cheaper (100 gas, maybe 2 supply, but it's debatable) but I don't think this had almost anything to do with why I lost. There are so many things I could have improved to give myself a chance at winning - it's not like I played a "Flash level" game. That being said, some tweaks would probably improve the matchup, as trying to 1 rax cc on kulas ravine is "fun". This is mostly a map issue obviously, but I think that type of map is gonna be around for a while. Show nested quote +On April 18 2010 06:30 Kaniol wrote:
If Flash saw this game: "Hmmm maybe there is something good in this SC2... Thanks to this Jinro guy for showing me!" Lol, sorry!! I just got completely raped whenever I tried to move out too soon in the practice games I played I guess I over-compensated.
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While being too reliant on air is a bad idea, I think its a valid option to force the toss to split his army, play more defensive or alter his army comp. A stalker heavy army will be a lot easier to take down than colossi/immortal/temps. Then again the real gamechange is how much of an econ advantage the protoss can get early on.
As much as I love tanks, once those zealots start swarming in i'm doing as much damage to my own army as I am doing to his! Then its colossi/psi storm and my army gets roasted.
If the time required for a terran to go agressive lets the toss get a 1-2 bases advantage, the game is pretty much over regardless of your harass. How I wish terran air would be as fast as mutalisks
I honestly dont like EMP being SO important in this matchup either. It should give you an edge when you land a few good ones but it should not completly turn around the matchup or make you lose the game should you forget/miss it.
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watch this replay
http://himan.pl/index.php?a=details&id=286
its korean 40min long tvp with mech open (emp incuded)
terran used practically every unit in game put alot of pressure with drops on toss but he still counldnt outproduce P, terran units arent enough cost effective, tanks suck ass vs immortals and in some situations even colo's can take them out
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Does anyone know how is TvP going on asia servers and have replays of? I would really like to see them playing (besides the reaply above me)
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Are voidrays any good vs battlecruisers or other Terran air?
I lost about 4 games last night, 3 to terran I think, all with air that destryed my anti-air units.
I don't really use canons much- they cost half as much as an anti-air unit but can't be moved around to chase down ships/DTs etc
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Void Rays are good against Vikings and BCs, but you need a lot of spares to take on BCs with Yamato, unless you intend to feedback them all before the fight. Yamato one-shots a Void Ray and you need about 2 Void Rays to every BC (which is a damn crime, considering the cost).
They'll also be decent against Banshees once everything that can harm them is out of the way (Marines, Vikings and Thors). Much like all your Stalkers being dead and a handful of Vikings killing all of your Collossi unhindered.
Banshees are just incredibly strong in general. Once they get cloak, you often HAVE to kill the entire rest of the army before you can think of taking out the Banshees. One COMSAT and your Observer is dead to instant Viking or Marine fire. You have to remove the threat of your AA units being obliterated before you can actually take them on. Once you run out, that's it. You'll probably never gather enough Stalkers, Sentries, Phoenixes or Void Rays after that point to take them on. Banshees, like Mutas, are insanely good at dominating Protoss once they get momentum going.
Its why I always go Templar when I see Banshees. Feedback is a much better weapon against them, since you can instagib a Banshee the moment you get an Observer near (rather than relying on it being alive the whole fight - which just invites a COMSAT-instagib) and you can always Psi Storm the area to buggery if they Cloak.
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Banshee's with cloak is generally a waste of 200 gas vs P. I lost my last 2 games vs high plat P dual port banshee'ing and it totally does not work. Have you ever heard of moving your observer back or having a 2nd one? Because every time I hit cloak my vikings went 'poof' and my banshee's would still be hit by their stalkers (and they weren't retards once they saw dual starport they made nothing but stalkers with their gas).
And if anyone is pumping out the mass banshee... they truely have nothing on the ground outside of mass marine/hellion. Don't say you lose to some banshee + x army... ie banshee + marauder or banshee + vik or banshee + tank.... that's like some terran whining about a mass immortal + colossus + sentry army lol.
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Void Rays are good against Vikings and BCs, but you need a lot of spares to take on BCs with Yamato, unless you intend to feedback them all before the fight. Yamato one-shots a Void Ray and you need about 2 Void Rays to every BC (which is a damn crime, considering the cost).
Feedback his BCs with templar; makes it jokishly easy to demolish BCs.
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On April 20 2010 14:40 L wrote:Show nested quote +Void Rays are good against Vikings and BCs, but you need a lot of spares to take on BCs with Yamato, unless you intend to feedback them all before the fight. Yamato one-shots a Void Ray and you need about 2 Void Rays to every BC (which is a damn crime, considering the cost).
Feedback his BCs with templar; makes it jokishly easy to demolish BCs.
Definitely wouldn't say BC's are a joke with templar. Feedback does hurt them if they aren't throwing yamato immidiately, but it's far from a free kill without plenty of void-ray support. Considering the pricetag on rays and high templar, you won't be able to re-produce that kind of army very long, thus a few well-placed emp will ruin your attempted counter fairly easily if you're gunning for the BC's with feedback instead of trying to hit the ghosts with it first. Both are quite dangerous, both need to be feedbacked.
Not saying that P shouldn't build HT against BC's to assist in bringing them down, but it's a lot easier said than done when you're talking two late-game armies head to head.
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EPT
