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On April 15 2010 03:25 Hold-Lurker wrote:
Yea, despite what Demuslim and Marrow (and a number of mid-level plat players) say, it looks like Terran are still winning their fair share of tournaments and high level matches post-patch 8 (Cauthonlucks' 4-0 of Orb, Loner's 2-0 of Beckham, TvP 2-0 in the USA vs Canada showmatches, etc.). It feels like there's a lot of exaggeration in this thread by terran players.
I guess it took some time after the patch before protoss players realized what they could get away with.
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On April 15 2010 03:23 Mente wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2010 03:16 Ryuu314 wrote:On April 15 2010 03:12 Mente wrote:On April 15 2010 03:12 Ryuu314 wrote:On April 15 2010 03:00 JTPROG wrote:
Trust me, every terran is doing what they can, but I feel like there's really not much we can do in this MU at this point, except for maybe abuse reapers early game or banshees if we can survive to them. We are changing the way we play, we have tried, it's just not working, It's not effective.
I may sound like an ass but dude...TRY HARDER. Protoss were "changing the way we play" and been trying our asses off for 8 fucking patches. Terran have been doing absolutely nothing except massing T1 for every single patch until patch 8, when low econ T1 abuse doesn't work anymore. Yea, marine build time increase hurt Terran a lot and I agree that it should probably be changed. But honestly, to all the people who want to nerf Protoss again? Bullshit. You can't nerf Immortals because they are the lifeline that lets Protoss kill Marauders and Roaches (to a lesser extent). You can't nerf sentry's FF because without it at that specific timing, Protoss can't fend off speedling all-ins. However, I do agree that guardian shield could probably be nerfed to lower duration or higher energy cost because the timing for it is not as crucial. But honestly, when I watch replays of Terran complaining "omg I try everything, it's not work, nerf protoss maor pl0x" it's pretty much the same freaking Marauder early game mass. Okay, you build one Thor or ghost kinda early, but really...it's the practically the same thing. In the rare occasion when I do see someone do something different, like reaper rushes, which don't necessarily have to do anything other than delay the protoss push , Terran does perfectly fine. /rant How exactly have your builds differend in TvP other than multiple war gate power attacks or 1 gate into robo? We picked different timings. Or pre-storm nerf, a lot of Protoss users went storm instead of robo. We finally figured out that sentry FF saves our ass from Marauder slow (FF utilization hasn't been here since day 1 buddy). We stopped doing 3 warpgate rushes. We stopped trying to use stalkers like dragoons. I could go on. What has Terran done? Spam the marauder button. @2SCV1Cup: Yes, that's true but I can also point out the 60+ page of nerf storm and nerf warpgate pl0x pages, as well. No good protoss went storm over robo. FF has been around since day 1 that's not really a build change that's micro. You went from 3 warpgate to 4 not really a build change. That's more of a choice than a build change as most protoss still go for stalker first. Terran has tried 1 rax FE 4 rax fast pressure 1 rax all in, 1 rax fact fe, banshee rush, ghost rush, 2 rax 1 fact, 2 port banshee rush, fast reaper rush. Those are actually builds none are really indicative of nerfs or the well we realized siege sucks so we stopped using siege tanks. See the difference? "What has Brotoss done? Spammed the immortal button." cwutididthar?
Are you kidding me? A LOT of protoss went for storm over robo. Sure we still got robo for obs, but our tech of choice was storm. And it was pretty darn effective. Go search up the old threads discussing storm v. robo tech. It was effective because HTs countered bio really well, while not being completely ass-raped by air.
FF is a micro change. You're absolutely right. Maybe Terrans need to do some micro changes? hurhur.
Most protoss still go for stalker first? Really? If they do it's only to fend off the possible reaper rush. There's really no reason to go stalkers first because Marauders absolutely rape stalkers even without slow.
Right. Protoss spams the immortal button when we only have 1-3 immortals for the initial push. That's spamming all right!
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On April 15 2010 03:29 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2010 03:23 Mente wrote:On April 15 2010 03:16 Ryuu314 wrote:On April 15 2010 03:12 Mente wrote:On April 15 2010 03:12 Ryuu314 wrote:On April 15 2010 03:00 JTPROG wrote:
Trust me, every terran is doing what they can, but I feel like there's really not much we can do in this MU at this point, except for maybe abuse reapers early game or banshees if we can survive to them. We are changing the way we play, we have tried, it's just not working, It's not effective.
I may sound like an ass but dude...TRY HARDER. Protoss were "changing the way we play" and been trying our asses off for 8 fucking patches. Terran have been doing absolutely nothing except massing T1 for every single patch until patch 8, when low econ T1 abuse doesn't work anymore. Yea, marine build time increase hurt Terran a lot and I agree that it should probably be changed. But honestly, to all the people who want to nerf Protoss again? Bullshit. You can't nerf Immortals because they are the lifeline that lets Protoss kill Marauders and Roaches (to a lesser extent). You can't nerf sentry's FF because without it at that specific timing, Protoss can't fend off speedling all-ins. However, I do agree that guardian shield could probably be nerfed to lower duration or higher energy cost because the timing for it is not as crucial. But honestly, when I watch replays of Terran complaining "omg I try everything, it's not work, nerf protoss maor pl0x" it's pretty much the same freaking Marauder early game mass. Okay, you build one Thor or ghost kinda early, but really...it's the practically the same thing. In the rare occasion when I do see someone do something different, like reaper rushes, which don't necessarily have to do anything other than delay the protoss push , Terran does perfectly fine. /rant How exactly have your builds differend in TvP other than multiple war gate power attacks or 1 gate into robo? We picked different timings. Or pre-storm nerf, a lot of Protoss users went storm instead of robo. We finally figured out that sentry FF saves our ass from Marauder slow (FF utilization hasn't been here since day 1 buddy). We stopped doing 3 warpgate rushes. We stopped trying to use stalkers like dragoons. I could go on. What has Terran done? Spam the marauder button. @2SCV1Cup: Yes, that's true but I can also point out the 60+ page of nerf storm and nerf warpgate pl0x pages, as well. No good protoss went storm over robo. FF has been around since day 1 that's not really a build change that's micro. You went from 3 warpgate to 4 not really a build change. That's more of a choice than a build change as most protoss still go for stalker first. Terran has tried 1 rax FE 4 rax fast pressure 1 rax all in, 1 rax fact fe, banshee rush, ghost rush, 2 rax 1 fact, 2 port banshee rush, fast reaper rush. Those are actually builds none are really indicative of nerfs or the well we realized siege sucks so we stopped using siege tanks. See the difference? "What has Brotoss done? Spammed the immortal button." cwutididthar? Are you kidding me? A LOT of protoss went for storm over robo. Sure we still got robo for obs, but our tech of choice was storm. And it was pretty darn effective. Go search up the old threads discussing storm v. robo tech. It was effective because HTs countered bio really well, while not being completely ass-raped by air. FF is a micro change. You're absolutely right. Maybe Terrans need to do some micro changes? hurhur. Most protoss still go for stalker first? If they do it's only to fend off the possible reaper rush. There's really no reason to go stalkers first because Marauders absolutely rape stalkers even without slow. Right. Protoss spams the immortal button when we only have 1-3 immortals for the initial push. That's spamming all right!
Well give me an example of a micro mechanic (i.e., emp for example) that I can employ with my units and I'd be more than willing to try it out. Possibly something that prevents the protoss from microing... like lockdown! We have that right?
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Looks like back to tank + ghost combos for me :D .
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On April 15 2010 03:28 Mente wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2010 03:25 Hold-Lurker wrote:
Yea, despite what Demuslim and Marrow (and a number of mid-level plat players) say, it looks like Terran are still winning their fair share of tournaments and high level matches post-patch 8 (Cauthonlucks' 4-0 of Orb, Loner's 2-0 of Beckham, TvP 2-0 in the USA vs Canada showmatches, etc.). It feels like there's a lot of exaggeration in this thread by terran players. There are exceptions to every rule? (i.e., brotoss player a makes bad decisions in series y but makes standard decisions in series z justifying his winz) I'm not touting for a nerf bat I'm touting for a think tank.
Or you could argue the reverse and that terran players in those games were skilled and made correct decisions, but other terran players have not. Either way, most of the responses in this thread and the other thread to people suggesting solid builds (e.g., Prozen) have been met with dismissal (i.e., "I don't see how this build would ever work against someone who builds a sentry").
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Yeah I still have a lot to try myself as well.
Edit: I dont' think I've shot down a single build other than my own that I've tested with mez(siege xpand).
I have more in mind and am more than willing to try some others.
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People, take a look at the replays I posted. It defends against the Immortal push, but I need to figure out what to transition to after successfully defending against the Immortals. Any suggestions? Please watch the replays first.
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The only way I'm surviving this matchup in Platinum league is by opening with speed reapers, dealing as much damage as I can (hopefully getting ~10 probe kills), and then expoing, and spending the whole game turtling while nuke harassing, while grabbing a third base. Eventually the protoss will get impatient and try to break my turtle. I then counter attack and deal as much damage as I can while taking a 4th. However, this matchup is very broken right now.
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On April 15 2010 03:31 Mente wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2010 03:29 Ryuu314 wrote:On April 15 2010 03:23 Mente wrote:On April 15 2010 03:16 Ryuu314 wrote:On April 15 2010 03:12 Mente wrote:On April 15 2010 03:12 Ryuu314 wrote:On April 15 2010 03:00 JTPROG wrote:
Trust me, every terran is doing what they can, but I feel like there's really not much we can do in this MU at this point, except for maybe abuse reapers early game or banshees if we can survive to them. We are changing the way we play, we have tried, it's just not working, It's not effective.
I may sound like an ass but dude...TRY HARDER. Protoss were "changing the way we play" and been trying our asses off for 8 fucking patches. Terran have been doing absolutely nothing except massing T1 for every single patch until patch 8, when low econ T1 abuse doesn't work anymore. Yea, marine build time increase hurt Terran a lot and I agree that it should probably be changed. But honestly, to all the people who want to nerf Protoss again? Bullshit. You can't nerf Immortals because they are the lifeline that lets Protoss kill Marauders and Roaches (to a lesser extent). You can't nerf sentry's FF because without it at that specific timing, Protoss can't fend off speedling all-ins. However, I do agree that guardian shield could probably be nerfed to lower duration or higher energy cost because the timing for it is not as crucial. But honestly, when I watch replays of Terran complaining "omg I try everything, it's not work, nerf protoss maor pl0x" it's pretty much the same freaking Marauder early game mass. Okay, you build one Thor or ghost kinda early, but really...it's the practically the same thing. In the rare occasion when I do see someone do something different, like reaper rushes, which don't necessarily have to do anything other than delay the protoss push , Terran does perfectly fine. /rant How exactly have your builds differend in TvP other than multiple war gate power attacks or 1 gate into robo? We picked different timings. Or pre-storm nerf, a lot of Protoss users went storm instead of robo. We finally figured out that sentry FF saves our ass from Marauder slow (FF utilization hasn't been here since day 1 buddy). We stopped doing 3 warpgate rushes. We stopped trying to use stalkers like dragoons. I could go on. What has Terran done? Spam the marauder button. @2SCV1Cup: Yes, that's true but I can also point out the 60+ page of nerf storm and nerf warpgate pl0x pages, as well. No good protoss went storm over robo. FF has been around since day 1 that's not really a build change that's micro. You went from 3 warpgate to 4 not really a build change. That's more of a choice than a build change as most protoss still go for stalker first. Terran has tried 1 rax FE 4 rax fast pressure 1 rax all in, 1 rax fact fe, banshee rush, ghost rush, 2 rax 1 fact, 2 port banshee rush, fast reaper rush. Those are actually builds none are really indicative of nerfs or the well we realized siege sucks so we stopped using siege tanks. See the difference? "What has Brotoss done? Spammed the immortal button." cwutididthar? Are you kidding me? A LOT of protoss went for storm over robo. Sure we still got robo for obs, but our tech of choice was storm. And it was pretty darn effective. Go search up the old threads discussing storm v. robo tech. It was effective because HTs countered bio really well, while not being completely ass-raped by air. FF is a micro change. You're absolutely right. Maybe Terrans need to do some micro changes? hurhur. Most protoss still go for stalker first? If they do it's only to fend off the possible reaper rush. There's really no reason to go stalkers first because Marauders absolutely rape stalkers even without slow. Right. Protoss spams the immortal button when we only have 1-3 immortals for the initial push. That's spamming all right! Well give me an example of a micro mechanic (i.e., emp for example) that I can employ with my units and I'd be more than willing to try it out. Possibly something that prevents the protoss from microing... like lockdown! We have that right?
You already touched on one: EMP. I think many Terrans say that EMP rushing isn't that great because it hurts your macro too much. Alright, maybe Blizzard needs to tweak EMP timing, but EMP should really solve your Immortal and Sentry problem. I'm not saying that everything should remain untouched and that Blizzard shouldnt' intervene with balance changes. Not at all. Rather, I'm just saying that nerfing Protoss more isn't the right thing to do. Tweaking EMP timing or reducing Marine/Reactor build times would do more to solve the problem.
Unseiged tank micro v. immortals. Tanks have same movespeed as immortals (i just checked liquipedia), and unseiged tanks outrange and shoot faster than immortals. Obviously there's an issue of slowing down the Immortals so you can effectively micro. But wait...isn't there a Terran ability that does just that? Maybe marauders can be used as support instead of being the backbone. Maybe instead of waiting passively at your natural/choke for the Protoss to come Terran can move out to meet the Protoss in a more open field, thus decreasing the strength of individual FFs and giving you more room to *gasp* micro?
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On April 15 2010 02:39 HubertFelix wrote:
Stop this. Players in the beta have to test the bugs and the balance to make a good final product.
They have to report the bugs and the imbalance.
The real answer is "post pure whine posts on battle.net".
I'm talking about the people who think SC2 is going to fail in Korea, as well as all those spastics making judgements about the game as a whole product before it's even been released.
I don't have a problem addressing the imbalances, but hearing people try to make qualified comments about how much better BW is/how SC2 is gonna suck/Korea won't like SC2 need to take their crystal ball and shove it.
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On April 15 2010 03:34 Hold-Lurker wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2010 03:28 Mente wrote:On April 15 2010 03:25 Hold-Lurker wrote:
Yea, despite what Demuslim and Marrow (and a number of mid-level plat players) say, it looks like Terran are still winning their fair share of tournaments and high level matches post-patch 8 (Cauthonlucks' 4-0 of Orb, Loner's 2-0 of Beckham, TvP 2-0 in the USA vs Canada showmatches, etc.). It feels like there's a lot of exaggeration in this thread by terran players. There are exceptions to every rule? (i.e., brotoss player a makes bad decisions in series y but makes standard decisions in series z justifying his winz) I'm not touting for a nerf bat I'm touting for a think tank. Or you could argue the reverse and that terran players in those games were skilled and made correct decisions, but other terran players have not. Either way, most of the responses in this thread and the other thread to people suggesting solid builds (e.g., Prozen) have been met with dismissal (i.e., "I don't see how this build would ever work against someone who builds a sentry").
Oh shut the fuck up. I was the person who said that, then watched the replays, and none of the replays even involved guardian shield (except, surprisingly, the one the terran player LOST). So, yea, I dismissed it, but I also gave it credit for stopping the immortal push. So stop your persecution of terran players as if we refuse to see any sort of reason.
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On April 15 2010 03:38 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2010 03:31 Mente wrote:On April 15 2010 03:29 Ryuu314 wrote:On April 15 2010 03:23 Mente wrote:On April 15 2010 03:16 Ryuu314 wrote:On April 15 2010 03:12 Mente wrote:On April 15 2010 03:12 Ryuu314 wrote:On April 15 2010 03:00 JTPROG wrote:
Trust me, every terran is doing what they can, but I feel like there's really not much we can do in this MU at this point, except for maybe abuse reapers early game or banshees if we can survive to them. We are changing the way we play, we have tried, it's just not working, It's not effective.
I may sound like an ass but dude...TRY HARDER. Protoss were "changing the way we play" and been trying our asses off for 8 fucking patches. Terran have been doing absolutely nothing except massing T1 for every single patch until patch 8, when low econ T1 abuse doesn't work anymore. Yea, marine build time increase hurt Terran a lot and I agree that it should probably be changed. But honestly, to all the people who want to nerf Protoss again? Bullshit. You can't nerf Immortals because they are the lifeline that lets Protoss kill Marauders and Roaches (to a lesser extent). You can't nerf sentry's FF because without it at that specific timing, Protoss can't fend off speedling all-ins. However, I do agree that guardian shield could probably be nerfed to lower duration or higher energy cost because the timing for it is not as crucial. But honestly, when I watch replays of Terran complaining "omg I try everything, it's not work, nerf protoss maor pl0x" it's pretty much the same freaking Marauder early game mass. Okay, you build one Thor or ghost kinda early, but really...it's the practically the same thing. In the rare occasion when I do see someone do something different, like reaper rushes, which don't necessarily have to do anything other than delay the protoss push , Terran does perfectly fine. /rant How exactly have your builds differend in TvP other than multiple war gate power attacks or 1 gate into robo? We picked different timings. Or pre-storm nerf, a lot of Protoss users went storm instead of robo. We finally figured out that sentry FF saves our ass from Marauder slow (FF utilization hasn't been here since day 1 buddy). We stopped doing 3 warpgate rushes. We stopped trying to use stalkers like dragoons. I could go on. What has Terran done? Spam the marauder button. @2SCV1Cup: Yes, that's true but I can also point out the 60+ page of nerf storm and nerf warpgate pl0x pages, as well. No good protoss went storm over robo. FF has been around since day 1 that's not really a build change that's micro. You went from 3 warpgate to 4 not really a build change. That's more of a choice than a build change as most protoss still go for stalker first. Terran has tried 1 rax FE 4 rax fast pressure 1 rax all in, 1 rax fact fe, banshee rush, ghost rush, 2 rax 1 fact, 2 port banshee rush, fast reaper rush. Those are actually builds none are really indicative of nerfs or the well we realized siege sucks so we stopped using siege tanks. See the difference? "What has Brotoss done? Spammed the immortal button." cwutididthar? Are you kidding me? A LOT of protoss went for storm over robo. Sure we still got robo for obs, but our tech of choice was storm. And it was pretty darn effective. Go search up the old threads discussing storm v. robo tech. It was effective because HTs countered bio really well, while not being completely ass-raped by air. FF is a micro change. You're absolutely right. Maybe Terrans need to do some micro changes? hurhur. Most protoss still go for stalker first? If they do it's only to fend off the possible reaper rush. There's really no reason to go stalkers first because Marauders absolutely rape stalkers even without slow. Right. Protoss spams the immortal button when we only have 1-3 immortals for the initial push. That's spamming all right! Well give me an example of a micro mechanic (i.e., emp for example) that I can employ with my units and I'd be more than willing to try it out. Possibly something that prevents the protoss from microing... like lockdown! We have that right? You already touched on one: EMP. I think many Terrans say that EMP rushing isn't that great because it hurts your macro too much. Alright, maybe Blizzard needs to tweak EMP timing, but EMP should really solve your Immortal and Sentry problem. I'm not saying that everything should remain untouched and that Blizzard shouldnt' intervene with balance changes. Not at all. Rather, I'm just saying that nerfing Protoss more isn't the right thing to do. Tweaking EMP timing or reducing Marine/Reactor build times would do more to solve the problem. Unseiged tank micro v. immortals. Tanks have same movespeed as immortals (i just checked liquipedia), and unseiged tanks outrange and shoot faster than immortals. Obviously there's an issue of slowing down the Immortals so you can effectively micro. But wait...isn't there a Terran ability that does just that? Maybe marauders can be used as support instead of being the backbone. Maybe instead of waiting passively at your natural/choke for the Protoss to come Terran can move out to meet the Protoss in a more open field, thus decreasing the strength of individual FFs and giving you more room to *gasp* micro?
From what i've seen in streams and tournies, most players, even the better ones, tend to just mass and auto-move in giant globs into eachother in a single control group. God forbid most players micro.
The ones who micro will (and do) win battles.
Does this solve the TvP problem (if there is one)? Not necessarily... but it gives youa fighting chance and pretty much makes this MU just like ZvT in BW.
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On April 15 2010 03:38 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2010 03:31 Mente wrote:On April 15 2010 03:29 Ryuu314 wrote:On April 15 2010 03:23 Mente wrote:On April 15 2010 03:16 Ryuu314 wrote:On April 15 2010 03:12 Mente wrote:On April 15 2010 03:12 Ryuu314 wrote:On April 15 2010 03:00 JTPROG wrote:
Trust me, every terran is doing what they can, but I feel like there's really not much we can do in this MU at this point, except for maybe abuse reapers early game or banshees if we can survive to them. We are changing the way we play, we have tried, it's just not working, It's not effective.
I may sound like an ass but dude...TRY HARDER. Protoss were "changing the way we play" and been trying our asses off for 8 fucking patches. Terran have been doing absolutely nothing except massing T1 for every single patch until patch 8, when low econ T1 abuse doesn't work anymore. Yea, marine build time increase hurt Terran a lot and I agree that it should probably be changed. But honestly, to all the people who want to nerf Protoss again? Bullshit. You can't nerf Immortals because they are the lifeline that lets Protoss kill Marauders and Roaches (to a lesser extent). You can't nerf sentry's FF because without it at that specific timing, Protoss can't fend off speedling all-ins. However, I do agree that guardian shield could probably be nerfed to lower duration or higher energy cost because the timing for it is not as crucial. But honestly, when I watch replays of Terran complaining "omg I try everything, it's not work, nerf protoss maor pl0x" it's pretty much the same freaking Marauder early game mass. Okay, you build one Thor or ghost kinda early, but really...it's the practically the same thing. In the rare occasion when I do see someone do something different, like reaper rushes, which don't necessarily have to do anything other than delay the protoss push , Terran does perfectly fine. /rant How exactly have your builds differend in TvP other than multiple war gate power attacks or 1 gate into robo? We picked different timings. Or pre-storm nerf, a lot of Protoss users went storm instead of robo. We finally figured out that sentry FF saves our ass from Marauder slow (FF utilization hasn't been here since day 1 buddy). We stopped doing 3 warpgate rushes. We stopped trying to use stalkers like dragoons. I could go on. What has Terran done? Spam the marauder button. @2SCV1Cup: Yes, that's true but I can also point out the 60+ page of nerf storm and nerf warpgate pl0x pages, as well. No good protoss went storm over robo. FF has been around since day 1 that's not really a build change that's micro. You went from 3 warpgate to 4 not really a build change. That's more of a choice than a build change as most protoss still go for stalker first. Terran has tried 1 rax FE 4 rax fast pressure 1 rax all in, 1 rax fact fe, banshee rush, ghost rush, 2 rax 1 fact, 2 port banshee rush, fast reaper rush. Those are actually builds none are really indicative of nerfs or the well we realized siege sucks so we stopped using siege tanks. See the difference? "What has Brotoss done? Spammed the immortal button." cwutididthar? Are you kidding me? A LOT of protoss went for storm over robo. Sure we still got robo for obs, but our tech of choice was storm. And it was pretty darn effective. Go search up the old threads discussing storm v. robo tech. It was effective because HTs countered bio really well, while not being completely ass-raped by air. FF is a micro change. You're absolutely right. Maybe Terrans need to do some micro changes? hurhur. Most protoss still go for stalker first? If they do it's only to fend off the possible reaper rush. There's really no reason to go stalkers first because Marauders absolutely rape stalkers even without slow. Right. Protoss spams the immortal button when we only have 1-3 immortals for the initial push. That's spamming all right! Well give me an example of a micro mechanic (i.e., emp for example) that I can employ with my units and I'd be more than willing to try it out. Possibly something that prevents the protoss from microing... like lockdown! We have that right? You already touched on one: EMP. I think many Terrans say that EMP rushing isn't that great because it hurts your macro too much. Alright, maybe Blizzard needs to tweak EMP timing, but EMP should really solve your Immortal and Sentry problem. I'm not saying that everything should remain untouched and that Blizzard shouldnt' intervene with balance changes. Not at all. Rather, I'm just saying that nerfing Protoss more isn't the right thing to do. Tweaking EMP timing or reducing Marine/Reactor build times would do more to solve the problem. Unseiged tank micro v. immortals. Tanks have same movespeed as immortals (i just checked liquipedia), and unseiged tanks outrange and shoot faster than immortals. Obviously there's an issue of slowing down the Immortals so you can effectively micro. But wait...isn't there a Terran ability that does just that? Maybe marauders can be used as support instead of being the backbone. Maybe instead of waiting passively at your natural/choke for the Protoss to come Terran can move out to meet the Protoss in a more open field, thus decreasing the strength of individual FFs and giving you more room to *gasp* micro?
I've touched on this in a previous thread or in this one. I forget, this micro is extremely hard to achieve and with the gas constraints I've had to use the blocking units as scvs~. Also this micro gets shut down by shuttle harass play and it shuts down both tank and marauder. This is mainly the build i've been having issues with defending with a FE of some sort (referencing back to reaver harass it was more than possible to FE and defend this).
You also seem to be thinking I'm asking for a nerf to brotoss. Maybe slow stalker walk speed down (holy crap they're almost as fast as hellions) but more over I'm asking for some input or ideas to try. I'm looking to play maybe 20+ games doing 1 build over and over again. Not many people have that kind of patience to begin with.
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On April 15 2010 02:37 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
@JTPROG: me of all people?
You fucking forget: I played protoss THIS entire time. I played protoss when we were the only race declining with a win % while terran had a near 15% win boost. I WORKED at it and did everything I could. I made 1 bitch post where I said "blizzard has a week" but after that even I realized I was an idiot and found a way.
I sit on a vent with multiple terran players who complain on a daily basis about how impossible this is. I come into this channel and hear a group of terran players me-owing like cats about how they need help from papa blizzard or else they will cry more tears. LITERALLY the only change they made in this last patch was making the grenade upgradable instead of FREE and everyone thinks the matchup is broken? That CAN'T be right.
Fucking OP is talking about how you HAVE to go marauders which you can't do cost effectively now because of 100 minerals/100 gas? That isn't right guys... it is the difference between 1 marauder. Do you guys actually play this game? I haven't seen a battle where had he had that 1 more marauder the entire game would have swishedddddddddd in his favor each time. And don't tell me the upgrade time smashes the meta game either. If you can't 1 rax marauder pressure a P WHILE EXPANDING anymore and you think it is the games fault then guess what? You need to change the way you play.
And to answer the deflecting people: YES I've played terran since the patch. I coach several platinum protoss players and I TvP them almost daily: AND WIN. Reaper harrass is still as strong as ever. Mixing tanks late game STILL as strong as ever.. no protoss has 10+ immortals late game and if they do you're an IDIOT for not scouting it and going bio + laughing at their easily countered tech choice. Mass templar Louder? Serious? This isn't new.. SCBW had mass templar only they were BETTER. I cannot fathom every terran getting their wish inthis thread...the would be in shambles.
And you guys can bitch about my "generalizing" when I regard most of you as "terran players." That is fine but uh, how many complaining in here don't play terran? 1? 2? Probably a few.. but I'd venture a guess this is a thread where mostly terran players vent their complaints about the mu spanning from FF to templars to immortals to collossus late game to blah blah blah.. THEY AREN'T REMOVING PROTOSS GUYS. SORRY.
Hear, hear! For Aiur!
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Honestly, reading this thread has given me a great deal of ideas to use in the TvP matchup and I will be seeing how they work in >1300 plat tonight.
But seriously? Terran aren't trying hard enough? We're not inventive? I'm sorry I don't play 70% of my games using a fast tech to robo and warp gate rush, when the other 30% is just DT's. And speaking of the Reaper rush. You're fast teching, there is a downside to that. With P its just you just build your army pop on guardian shields and 1a2a3a. There's really nothing I need to focus fire.
In reality, the point of this post isn't really to call protoss players lazy, or even uninventive. The point is that the argument that a certain race is not "trying" hard enough is baseless take away from strategy discussion.
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On April 15 2010 03:41 shinosai wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2010 03:34 Hold-Lurker wrote:On April 15 2010 03:28 Mente wrote:On April 15 2010 03:25 Hold-Lurker wrote:
Yea, despite what Demuslim and Marrow (and a number of mid-level plat players) say, it looks like Terran are still winning their fair share of tournaments and high level matches post-patch 8 (Cauthonlucks' 4-0 of Orb, Loner's 2-0 of Beckham, TvP 2-0 in the USA vs Canada showmatches, etc.). It feels like there's a lot of exaggeration in this thread by terran players. There are exceptions to every rule? (i.e., brotoss player a makes bad decisions in series y but makes standard decisions in series z justifying his winz) I'm not touting for a nerf bat I'm touting for a think tank. Or you could argue the reverse and that terran players in those games were skilled and made correct decisions, but other terran players have not. Either way, most of the responses in this thread and the other thread to people suggesting solid builds (e.g., Prozen) have been met with dismissal (i.e., "I don't see how this build would ever work against someone who builds a sentry"). Oh shut the fuck up. I was the person who said that, then watched the replays, and none of the replays even involved guardian shield (except, surprisingly, the one the terran player LOST). So, yea, I dismissed it, but I also gave it credit for stopping the immortal push. So stop your persecution of terran players as if we refuse to see any sort of reason.
Haha, without resorting to cursing, I think you were the only one that even responded regarding the build so I think my point still stands. I'm pretty sure Prozen posted this build in the other "Immortal Problem" thread as well with no responses, but whatever - I'm going to review the games I mentioned again with T beating P and try to be more constructive.
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On April 15 2010 03:34 Prozen wrote:
People, take a look at the replays I posted. It defends against the Immortal push, but I need to figure out what to transition to after successfully defending against the Immortals. Any suggestions? Please watch the replays first.
Well if you scout something different than immortals you need to adapt earlier. I would transition to air units as well, as has been already suggested. Anti-air is the protoss weakpoint so just hit them on that spot. That way you get bio + air which is the way i usually play vs toss and it works well for me.
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As a Protoss player I struggle a lot vs Banshees. They throw me off my game plan and allows Terran to expand.
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the logic about "its just 100/100 more" Um not really, its 100/100 more and 80 seconds tied up not researching stim.
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On April 15 2010 02:50 Prozen wrote:![[image loading]](http://www.starcraft-replay.com/replays/link/0/socrates-vs-azz-1271267243.php) ![[image loading]](http://www.starcraft-replay.com/replays/link/0/socrates-vs-azz-1271267224.php) and ![[image loading]](http://www.starcraft-replay.com/replays/link/0/socrates-vs-azz-1271267190.php) Granted the game on Metalopolis, Azz went 5 Warpgate push allin, but it does defend against Immortals quite nicely.
This is almost the exact build I have been doing in tvp - basically copy MorroW's FE. It definitely feels very strong until protoss gets colossus or storm. I haven't played enough games with this build to make any conclusions, but in the event that I defend the protoss attack I usually win.
Assuming that this does work well even with the best protoss doing his 4~5gate 1base all in, the question now becomes how protoss will adapt to this build. Perhaps the metagame has to change for protoss now if this busting-terran-early-with-immortal+sentry+stalker doesn't work anymore?
I wonder how this would play out on Blistering Sands...
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EPT
