EPTTerran vs Protoss - Page 10
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Skyze
Canada2324 Posts
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Prozen
United States338 Posts
On April 15 2010 04:26 Orpheus wrote: This is almost the exact build I have been doing in tvp - basically copy MorroW's FE. It definitely feels very strong until protoss gets colossus or storm. I haven't played enough games with this build to make any conclusions, but in the event that I defend the protoss attack I usually win. Assuming that this does work well even with the best protoss doing his 4~5gate 1base all in, the question now becomes how protoss will adapt to this build. Perhaps the metagame has to change for protoss now if this busting-terran-early-with-immortal+sentry+stalker doesn't work anymore? I wonder how this would play out on Blistering Sands... The Protoss will probably go Collosi. Proper followup to this build imo is EMP to handle Storms + Immortals and Vikings to deal with the Collosi. | ||
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DeMusliM
United Kingdom401 Posts
I aimed this thread directly at Terran players - to see whether there was something i'm missing, or whether they are in the same situation as I. I didn't want alot of protoss players, that obviously feel quite offended that their new found high win ratio vsT is not due to terrans being somewhat weak against protoss, but more down to their abilities being higher than that of the terran(lol  ).Gonna continue to think through ideas in this matchup as right now i find the mu pretty dull and repetitive. I do believe immortals/warpgates/sentries are the problem, that's not to say the other units in the game are perfectly fine, but i believe these few are what really separate protoss from the other 2 races right now. | ||
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p1ng
Germany53 Posts
On April 15 2010 02:58 cuppatea wrote: Loner (T) beat Beckham (P) 3-0 in the semi finals of the biggest money SC2 tournament to date. It might be worth checking out the VODs for inspiration, see if the Asian Terrans are doing anything the Euro/NA players are missing. Game 1 - http://media.17173.com/sc2/2010-04-15/20100415005427235.shtml Game 2 - http://media.17173.com/sc2/2010-04-15/20100415005424848.shtml Game 3 - http://media.17173.com/sc2/2010-04-15/20100415005417343.shtml I needed about 30min to get myself a account on 17173.com to download a loudervsbeckhacm.rar file from the forums, but those replays are from another patch.. Anyone found those games? | ||
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DeMusliM
United Kingdom401 Posts
By that i mean he was playing with 1 gate, 1 robotics bay for a long time while teching to collosus, then got more gateways and added zealots and not much else. He then had 3 collosus attacking a barracks in the fight and not the army, but still won the fight pretty much (had to retreat due to a viking) - and had 4 collosus queued on a robotics bay. His strategy is outdated, and his macro wasn't very good - i don't think it's a good showcase of TvP being fine ;S. | ||
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shinosai
United States1577 Posts
http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?4tcmaj4jjue Check out this replay to see how I alter your build. Note this is an ffa so it's not a serious game. I'm just showing you how I modified your build to incorporate banshees. At roughly 7 minutes I have 3 full bunkers of marines with only 3 rax. in your replay, kawaii has 3 bunkers full of marines and 4 marines extra at 7 minutes At 9 minutes I have begun banshee production and I have 21 marines. In kawaiis replay he has 24 marines and a marauder at 9 minutes, granted he lost a few marines. As you can see, losing the 4th rax does not slow your marine production that much, and allows much faster tech. | ||
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Prozen
United States338 Posts
On April 15 2010 05:03 shinosai wrote: PFrozen: http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?4tcmaj4jjue Check out this replay to see how I alter your build. Note this is an ffa so it's not a serious game. I'm just showing you how I modified your build to incorporate banshees. At roughly 7 minutes I have 3 full bunkers of marines with only 3 rax. in your replay, kawaii has 3 bunkers full of marines and 4 marines extra at 7 minutes At 9 minutes I have begun banshee production and I have 21 marines. In kawaiis replay he has 24 marines and a marauder at 9 minutes, granted he lost a few marines. As you can see, losing the 4th rax does not slow your marine production that much, and allows much faster tech. Hmm, interesting. Honestly, whenever I used this build, I just went 3 Rax as opposed to 4 Rax. Thanks for your input. | ||
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deo.deo
135 Posts
demuslim 2 phobos 0 QF: 3 Terra - 1 Toss | ||
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On April 15 2010 04:47 DeMusliM wrote: Hmm, i feel this thread has gone completely off topic. I aimed this thread directly at Terran players - to see whether there was something i'm missing, or whether they are in the same situation as I. I didn't want alot of protoss players, that obviously feel quite offended that their new found high win ratio vsT is not due to terrans being somewhat weak against protoss, but more down to their abilities being higher than that of the terran(lol ).Gonna continue to think through ideas in this matchup as right now i find the mu pretty dull and repetitive. I do believe immortals/warpgates/sentries are the problem, that's not to say the other units in the game are perfectly fine, but i believe these few are what really separate protoss from the other 2 races right now. Oh yeah? You wanted a bunch of terrans to agree with you and you don't like how the race you single out defends itself? Ain't that a bitch. Would you like me to assume all those wins you had pre patch 8 was because you were playing the broken race that nobody could beat? No? Then don't be a jackass to all p's by suggesting the same. Sorry dude. I'm kinda amazed you expected 0 opposition to the "problems" you are having. | ||
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On April 15 2010 05:21 deo.deo wrote: http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft/images/news/gosucupinvitational_brackets2.jpg demuslim 2 phobos 0 QF: 3 Terra - 1 Toss In fact only 1 of 5 protoss advanced in that tourney to round 2 and it was nazgul who is one of the best players atm. | ||
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OgerAffe
Germany48 Posts
i think tvp is broken atm, and i think blizzard will nerf the immortal soon. besides: im playing on some smurf accounts atm (ye im a dumbass :/) with the intention just to practice specific Matchups. Last days/Weeks i nearly only played TvP, a LOT of TvP and my impression is, besides that p "allins" are defintly too strong atm vs terran, this: 1] Some Koreans make 4 Marauder Drops (with no exp etc), u can kick off pylons this way but if he just counterattack u are DEAD. So dropping in tvp atm, especially with 3-4 marauders is suicide against a P who counterattacks. So dont do drops. 2] Mech is crap, u know it, i know it, its FACT, i tried 300 different mech bos, its just bad atm 3] I tried the Thor + Marine Bo very often, sometimes i could crush the enemy, but only if he didnt switch to mass zeals/psi storm in the midgame. I really think thor + marine is crap tbh, sometimes it can be cute but i dont see a big advantage in this bo if u compare with standard marine/rauder 4] Marauder Fe is not really reliable anymore, good 4gate+robo allin p destroy u, =(. Good Option atm: I have some great success with following build order: 1 Rax to fast Starport (only 1) then start building a banshee, meanwhile u build 2 more rax and pump marauder out of 3 rax. With ure first Banshee you go harrass (if u know he doesnt have a phoenix), if u can kill more than 3-4 probes u have a huge edge.. just build on some more banshees until u have 3-4, then add 1 Medivac and u can leave your base. If he attacks u then focus the immortals with marauder/Banshees, they melt very fast. With this style (3rax rauder + banshee) i killed very good protoss, u should at least try it. OFC if he build some phoenix u have to add marines. BTW: with this build order u are safe against many things: DT Rush (u can have the raven then very fast) + Colossi Drop (u can have the viking very fast) etc. And ofc build 2-3 rines before u start building marauder only, for sniping obs :D hope my impressions helped a bit, and im looking forward to the upcoming immortalnerf :p (or at least changes who increase the non-existing strategic depth of this matchup) PS: I think CauthonLuck (very good american terran obv) does my 1 starport build order in his first game against Orb in the KotH. | ||
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deo.deo
135 Posts
On April 15 2010 05:23 {88}iNcontroL wrote: Oh yeah? You wanted a bunch of terrans to agree with you and you don't like how the race you single out defends itself? Ain't that a bitch. Would you like me to assume all those wins you had pre patch 8 was because you were playing the broken race that nobody could beat? No? Then don't be a jackass to all p's by suggesting the same. Sorry dude. I'm kinda amazed you expected 0 opposition to the "problems" you are having. plus he wants terra players in this forum to help him... yeah I'm sure they are just all holding back their strategies and dont play the big tournaments.... Its like Lebron asking the waterboy of the clippers how to better slam dunk.. | ||
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Hold-Lurker
United States403 Posts
On April 15 2010 05:00 DeMusliM wrote: i just watched 1 of those games of loner vs beckham on LT, and beckham didn't play very good. By that i mean he was playing with 1 gate, 1 robotics bay for a long time while teching to collosus, then got more gateways and added zealots and not much else. He then had 3 collosus attacking a barracks in the fight and not the army, but still won the fight pretty much (had to retreat due to a viking) - and had 4 collosus queued on a robotics bay. His strategy is outdated, and his macro wasn't very good - i don't think it's a good showcase of TvP being fine ;S. Game 2 is an example of reaper harass into fast expo with 4rax marines, very similar to the build posted earlier here. It crushes the immortal push fairly well, although there was no guardian shield used (toss gas being used for stalker to fight reaper and on immortals which are ineffective vs. marines). I didn't see the toss stuck on high minerals or queuing unnecessarily here at all, then the terran proceeds to crush the toss army due to 2 base vs 1 base for a long time (with bio+viking vs gateway+collo). | ||
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DeMusliM
United Kingdom401 Posts
As for the tournaments recently, i don't think i need to poke at how many are being won by protoss. Pretty much every tournament i've seen recently has been somewhat dominated by protoss, coincidence? Doubt it. Even if we just single out tournaments such as zotac - the fact the first 4 or so were won by zerg/terran and no protoss makes me think hey, why aren't protoss winning - semi finals were filled with terrans/zergs and the protoss players whined - even though it was the same players hitting the finals each week (dimaga) which doesn't suggest it's the race, but more down to his ability. Now within the last 2 zotacs i think we saw 3 protoss in the semis and a protoss v protoss finale, and a PvT that was sweeped 3-0. Sorry to say, but recent results speak for themselves (and it was different protoss players each time meaning, it wasn't the same 1 player dominating, but the race itself). We can all point at some result "OH LOL IMBA" - but if you're gonna point at X Y and Z when they are notorious for being weaker players of their race and try and get sympathy from that, please. I'm talking about the top vs the top - and that's what it's about i'm afraid. | ||
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HalfAmazing
Netherlands402 Posts
On April 15 2010 02:59 {88}iNcontroL wrote: Yep that is exactly what I was saying. The game is perfect and muslim/morrow don't work hard enough. ORRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR I was saying that they can work as hard as they are and NOT bitch like nearly all the protoss players did when the game was obviously broken? I STILL see morrow / muslim in the finals of nearly every tourney on EU so despite the impossible odds they've seem to have found a way. But yeah, lets nerf immortals, storm, sentry and collossus in the next patch so we can see tvt/zvz/tvz every game. You are a ridiculous hypocrite. You even threatened to quit the game unless Blizzard patched it. SCV/Marine rush was broken. Woop ti fucking doo. Easy fix applied, and the game returned to its natural balance of protoss having an unbeatable ground army. Stop being such a staunch defender of 'your race'. It's a game, dude, not your ethnic pride at stake. | ||
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
I addressed that post IN THIS THREAD and said I was an idiot who "shut up and went to work." So calling me a hyporcrite for something I called myself on is bs. And the thing I was bitching about had tremendous numbers to support it. Comparing that to "immortals are hard to kill" or "this matchup is tough" from a guy who wins everything anyways is completely different. [removed] | ||
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On April 15 2010 05:49 DeMusliM wrote: Yeh, let's point at the protoss' that aren't doing well prepatch, weren't doing well at the start, and aren't doing well after - good way to prove that balance has anything to do with it *sarcasm off*. As for the tournaments recently, i don't think i need to poke at how many are being won by protoss. Pretty much every tournament i've seen recently has been somewhat dominated by protoss, coincidence? Doubt it. Even if we just single out tournaments such as zotac - the fact the first 4 or so were won by zerg/terran and no protoss makes me think hey, why aren't protoss winning - semi finals were filled with terrans/zergs and the protoss players whined - even though it was the same players hitting the finals each week (dimaga) which doesn't suggest it's the race, but more down to his ability. Now within the last 2 zotacs i think we saw 3 protoss in the semis and a protoss v protoss finale, and a PvT that was sweeped 3-0. Sorry to say, but recent results speak for themselves (and it was different protoss players each time meaning, it wasn't the same 1 player dominating, but the race itself). We can all point at some result "OH LOL IMBA" - but if you're gonna point at X Y and Z when they are notorious for being weaker players of their race and try and get sympathy from that, please. I'm talking about the top vs the top - and that's what it's about i'm afraid. ??? Haypro? The aforementioned tourney where 4 of 5 p's were eliminated? [fixed, my bad sorry hehe] I could go on.. but in fact: You are just wrong. Terrans STILL win more than protoss but we go from winning 0 tourneys to like 4 and you go from winning ALL tourneys to just half now and something is wrong with the game? | ||
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Louder
United States2276 Posts
On April 15 2010 05:23 {88}iNcontroL wrote: Oh yeah? You wanted a bunch of terrans to agree with you and you don't like how the race you single out defends itself? Ain't that a bitch. Would you like me to assume all those wins you had pre patch 8 was because you were playing the broken race that nobody could beat? No? Then don't be a jackass to all p's by suggesting the same. Sorry dude. I'm kinda amazed you expected 0 opposition to the "problems" you are having. You seem to expect zero opposition to your statements in response, and you're far too eager to put people in their place than you are to participate in a constructive discussion in this situation. Instead of making generalizations and trying to make people look stupid, it would be cool if you could contribute your insight as a Protoss player in more detail than "reaper harass is good and mass tanks late game are good". I personally would appreciate it in fact, in general, from Protoss in this thread, to respond constructively. Re previous comment about templars: Storm did more damage but didn't have smart cast. It's a lot easier to spam storms. And now that temps can get an upgrade where they spawn with enough energy to cast storm right away, they're an even bigger problem to for T. I also don't have a super fast general purpose low cost unit that can snipe them like I would with vultures in SC1. To interpret my statements about storm as a complaint of imbalance would be a mistake. I just pointed out that I find it difficult to deal with, and that it's not as simple as making ghosts. | ||
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HalfAmazing
Netherlands402 Posts
On April 15 2010 05:53 {88}iNcontroL wrote: shut the fuck up. I addressed that post IN THIS THREAD and said I was an idiot who "shut up and went to work." So calling me a hyporcrite for something I called myself on is bs. And the thing I was bitching about had tremendous numbers to support it. Comparing that to "immortals are hard to kill" or "this matchup is tough" from a guy who wins everything anyways is completely different. Crawl back in the hole you came from please. You're defective. Fix your shit. | ||
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
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