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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On April 15 2010 05:58 Louder wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2010 05:23 {88}iNcontroL wrote:On April 15 2010 04:47 DeMusliM wrote:Hmm, i feel this thread has gone completely off topic. I aimed this thread directly at Terran players - to see whether there was something i'm missing, or whether they are in the same situation as I. I didn't want alot of protoss players, that obviously feel quite offended that their new found high win ratio vsT is not due to terrans being somewhat weak against protoss, but more down to their abilities being higher than that of the terran(lol  ). Gonna continue to think through ideas in this matchup as right now i find the mu pretty dull and repetitive. I do believe immortals/warpgates/sentries are the problem, that's not to say the other units in the game are perfectly fine, but i believe these few are what really separate protoss from the other 2 races right now. Oh yeah? You wanted a bunch of terrans to agree with you and you don't like how the race you single out defends itself? Ain't that a bitch. Would you like me to assume all those wins you had pre patch 8 was because you were playing the broken race that nobody could beat? No? Then don't be a jackass to all p's by suggesting the same. Sorry dude. I'm kinda amazed you expected 0 opposition to the "problems" you are having. You seem to expect zero opposition to your statements in response, and you're far too eager to put people in their place than you are to participate in a constructive discussion in this situation. Instead of making generalizations and trying to make people look stupid, it would be cool if you could contribute your insight as a Protoss player in more detail than "reaper harass is good and mass tanks late game are good". I personally would appreciate it in fact, in general, from Protoss in this thread, to respond constructively. Re previous comment about templars: Storm did more damage but didn't have smart cast. It's a lot easier to spam storms. And now that temps can get an upgrade where they spawn with enough energy to cast storm right away, they're an even bigger problem to for T. I also don't have a super fast general purpose low cost unit that can snipe them like I would with vultures in SC1. To interpret my statements about storm as a complaint of imbalance would be a mistake. I just pointed out that I find it difficult to deal with, and that it's not as simple as making ghosts.
Something being difficult to deal with is a good thing. That is what separates the bad from the good. Something the bw players want and the nubs that are new to this game don't. You can suggest all you want that you aren't "complaining" but in fact just randomly mentioning something you want to say is "difficult" but in this thread, in this context it is fair to assume you are suggesting it is OP or broken or w/e. That being said I have 0 respect for the argument when you simply state "it is difficult and I can't just make ghosts to solve it" WELL GOOD I don't want the game to be that simple and I WANT the game to be difficult.
I had no idea blizz was going to have to dredge through people complaining that this game is too difficult given how concerned we all were pre beta about it being too easy.
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On April 15 2010 05:23 {88}iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2010 04:47 DeMusliM wrote:Hmm, i feel this thread has gone completely off topic. I aimed this thread directly at Terran players - to see whether there was something i'm missing, or whether they are in the same situation as I. I didn't want alot of protoss players, that obviously feel quite offended that their new found high win ratio vsT is not due to terrans being somewhat weak against protoss, but more down to their abilities being higher than that of the terran(lol ). Gonna continue to think through ideas in this matchup as right now i find the mu pretty dull and repetitive. I do believe immortals/warpgates/sentries are the problem, that's not to say the other units in the game are perfectly fine, but i believe these few are what really separate protoss from the other 2 races right now. Oh yeah? You wanted a bunch of terrans to agree with you and you don't like how the race you single out defends itself? Ain't that a bitch. Would you like me to assume all those wins you had pre patch 8 was because you were playing the broken race that nobody could beat? No? Then don't be a jackass to all p's by suggesting the same. Sorry dude. I'm kinda amazed you expected 0 opposition to the "problems" you are having.
iNcontroL, excuse me for replying to your highness.
Although a lot of people here seem to be merely complaining about balance, by the fact remains that there are a lot of decent players (some aren't even Terran) in this thread sharing the sentiment (DeMuslim, Strelok, Origine, Antimage, MorroW, Gretorp, Louder, just naming a few that I happen to recognize), suggesting that there is at least an issue at hand, whether it be tvp balance or the Terran metagame.
I understand it is infuriating to see many people complaining about protoss being imbalanced then proceed to suggest nerfing everything protoss has to oblivion, but at least I don't think it was from the better players who are striving for real solutions. Your anger is quite justified, but it isn't necessary to bring the point across. Would you shed some light upon us inferior players as to what might be some possible ways to safely expand then transition to a more or less even mid-game? I really find it hard to believe that protoss players on the whole are better players than their Terran counterparts.
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On April 15 2010 06:04 {88}iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2010 05:58 Louder wrote:On April 15 2010 05:23 {88}iNcontroL wrote:On April 15 2010 04:47 DeMusliM wrote:Hmm, i feel this thread has gone completely off topic. I aimed this thread directly at Terran players - to see whether there was something i'm missing, or whether they are in the same situation as I. I didn't want alot of protoss players, that obviously feel quite offended that their new found high win ratio vsT is not due to terrans being somewhat weak against protoss, but more down to their abilities being higher than that of the terran(lol ). Gonna continue to think through ideas in this matchup as right now i find the mu pretty dull and repetitive. I do believe immortals/warpgates/sentries are the problem, that's not to say the other units in the game are perfectly fine, but i believe these few are what really separate protoss from the other 2 races right now. Oh yeah? You wanted a bunch of terrans to agree with you and you don't like how the race you single out defends itself? Ain't that a bitch. Would you like me to assume all those wins you had pre patch 8 was because you were playing the broken race that nobody could beat? No? Then don't be a jackass to all p's by suggesting the same. Sorry dude. I'm kinda amazed you expected 0 opposition to the "problems" you are having. You seem to expect zero opposition to your statements in response, and you're far too eager to put people in their place than you are to participate in a constructive discussion in this situation. Instead of making generalizations and trying to make people look stupid, it would be cool if you could contribute your insight as a Protoss player in more detail than "reaper harass is good and mass tanks late game are good". I personally would appreciate it in fact, in general, from Protoss in this thread, to respond constructively. Re previous comment about templars: Storm did more damage but didn't have smart cast. It's a lot easier to spam storms. And now that temps can get an upgrade where they spawn with enough energy to cast storm right away, they're an even bigger problem to for T. I also don't have a super fast general purpose low cost unit that can snipe them like I would with vultures in SC1. To interpret my statements about storm as a complaint of imbalance would be a mistake. I just pointed out that I find it difficult to deal with, and that it's not as simple as making ghosts. Something being difficult to deal with is a good thing. That is what separates the bad from the good. Something the bw players want and the nubs that are new to this game don't. You can suggest all you want that you aren't "complaining" but in fact just randomly mentioning something you want to say is "difficult" but in this thread, in this context it is fair to assume you are suggesting it is OP or broken or w/e. That being said I have 0 respect for the argument when you simply state "it is difficult and I can't just make ghosts to solve it" WELL GOOD I don't want the game to be that simple and I WANT the game to be difficult. I had no idea blizz was going to have to dredge through people complaining that this game is too difficult given how concerned we all were pre beta about it being too easy.
I'm not complaining.
If you were too sick to go to work and your boss reamed you out for "making excuses", would that be accurate, or a mischaracterization of what's going on?
If I say I find something difficult to deal with, that's not a complaint. That's a statement. An observation. I may think it is indeed overpowered. I think there are some things in this game that are, in some contexts, broken, and it's not only Protoss. In t he context of the OP, this was not a "game imbalance" thread, it was an attempt to have a discussion about a specific problem in TvP. My remarks were made with that context in mind.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
That is my point though. You say it is a problem NOW but earlier you said it was difficult. I look at that as two separate things: Difficult is good. A problem is bad. I want storm to be complex and difficult to handle. I think the way storm is now is good, does 80 damage max has a fairly small area of effect and emp makes them USELESS. Not to mention the high cost of storm/stormers/the tech in general so the high risk high reward concept is in effect.
Sorry if I came off too abrasive but this thread is convaluted with people just outright complaining and saying everything the P does is OP. Meanwhile Z's/T's win more tourneys and guess what? P just had their most meaningful patch so YES we are going to do better than T's/Z's for a bit because nothing changed for us save for our units are more effective and T/Z has to figure out a different less OP play style.
The same happened earlier: WG's were WAY OP. P went from winning everything to struggling immediately after. People complained that the nerf was too much.. guess what? It wasn't. They didn't change it a bit and we are fine now.
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incontrol, you make good points and I agree, but I don't see any solid footing to the situation we're in now. There's just too much vulnerability at one point that can be easily exploited.
Considering I've played terran in BW and I've played terran in SC2 I like to think I have a firm grasp on the race that I've been mulling around with for the past over 9000 years.
Eventually I'll think of something that will work consistently against this kind of play but right now unless you're offering yourself up for a series of games you're not being productive at all.
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On April 15 2010 06:17 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
That is my point though. You say it is a problem NOW but earlier you said it was difficult. I look at that as two separate things: Difficult is good. A problem is bad. I want storm to be complex and difficult to handle. I think the way storm is now is good, does 80 damage max has a fairly small area of effect and emp makes them USELESS. Not to mention the high cost of storm/stormers/the tech in general so the high risk high reward concept is in effect.
Sorry if I came off too abrasive but this thread is convaluted with people just outright complaining and saying everything the P does is OP. Meanwhile Z's/T's win more tourneys and guess what? P just had their most meaningful patch so YES we are going to do better than T's/Z's for a bit because nothing changed for us save for our units are more effective and T/Z has to figure out a different less OP play style.
The same happened earlier: WG's were WAY OP. P went from winning everything to struggling immediately after. People complained that the nerf was too much.. guess what? It wasn't. They didn't change it a bit and we are fine now.
I did not change the context or wording of my statements. I didn't restate anything as a "problem" in my previous post. If you're referring to a comment about things I think are imbalanced, please note I did not specify anything at all
I agree with your statements about warp gates. I also agree that there are lots of random people saying useless crap on this thread. But it's a waste of time to try and respond and put them in their place. The OP was good, and it merits thoughtful discussion, in my opinion.
In what context is it OK for a player to express his thoughts on a situation? Are we not supposed to say we feel, in our experience, that something is broken or imbalanced or too difficult, if we do indeed think that - and can back it up with our own replays, our own thoughtful arguments? Responding with observations about previous balance changes and statistics are off point and attempt to block useful discussion.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
You seem to be out of date with this thread Louder. He has responded with attacks and sarcasm just as much as anything I have. He has moved past just thoughtfully asking for help and suggested that all the P's victories lately are due to the patch.
I have no problem with constructive discussions. I have problems with patches of people getting together and complaining about how broken a game is WHILE they (the goodplayers) still do JUST fine. And in fact would do better had they spent less time talking on a forum about how difficult X unit is and more time figuring out the best way to deal with it.
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Perhaps you really don't see the problem. Either way, nobody has yet to come up with a failproof solution. Morrow's 1 rax FE is a very risky strategy and I don't believe it can be standard simply because if it becomes standard protoss will start opening with super aggressive things and will make 1 rax FE not viable, so we'd be back to square one. I'd love to see terran find a viable, safe build, but I don't see that happening until there are changes made.
Remember what Day9 says about standard strategies. A good strategy becomes standard because even if an opponent knows about it they can't do anything about it. Think siege expand in BW TvP. That's standard for a reason.
Until someone manages to find a standard strategy that is malleable and flexible, I will continue to say TvP is a broken matchup.
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I play toss, and have since SC1 was released. Right now, I really love the new mechanics they gave us, and I do think we are a bit imba vs. terran.
However, I think some of you guys need to get a grip here. Not one Blizzard RTS game was balanced before the release of the expansion, and even then it took arguably years from that point.
Now here we are, 2 months into the BETA for god's sake, and people are shouting doom. Just calm down, let the designers do their jobs. Maybe in 4 years it will be balanced. Just have to wait and see.
Meanwhile, do everything you can to find broken strats and counters to said broken strats. That is how a game evolves, after all. DeMuslim wasn't asking everyone to freak out on each other. How does that help the game get better?
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On April 15 2010 06:24 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
You seem to be out of date with this thread Louder. He has responded with attacks and sarcasm just as much as anything I have. He has moved past just thoughtfully asking for help and suggested that all the P's victories lately are due to the patch.
I have no problem with constructive discussions. I have problems with patches of people getting together and complaining about how broken a game is WHILE they (the goodplayers) still do JUST fine. And in fact would do better had they spent less time talking on a forum about how difficult X unit is and more time figuring out the best way to deal with it.
I haven't read all of his posts, but it looked like he got negative after you did. In any case, this thread is pretty much shot and we should all move on
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In all fairness, the attacks and sarcasms started at Page 3 and continued... if I was the OP I wouldn't be the happiest person in the world.
Anyway... I think everyone would love it if there's any Protoss who wants to share replays of them losing to a Terran past mid game (or Terran sharing how they beat good Protoss). It would be a great learning experience for all of us.
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On April 15 2010 06:35 Floophead_III wrote:
A good strategy becomes standard because even if an opponent knows about it they can't do anything about it.
I'd argue that's actually the definition of an overpowered strategy.
A standard strategy is one that is strong against multiple builds with few weaknesses.
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Hmm... I would say it's more of if an opponent knows about it they can't straight up beat it without taking a drastic risk. How about that?
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"Any suggestions are appreciated - anybody also dwelling on the same situation will make me feel less crap for losing roughly 9/11 games vs protoss in the last few days."
maybe posting those replays would help.
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It seems the problem stems from Guardian Shield reducing marines ability to fight protoss units early. You could probably hold those pushes on a fast expo with a boatload of marines, but with guardian shield, you're doing 3 damage to zealots and immortals.
Would making Shield an upgrade on the Cyber Core help? Its not like Toss needs it right away, as it usually doesn't get used until that first push by either side. Would it set Toss back just enough to allow terran the chance to fast expand with marines?
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On April 15 2010 06:54 PanzerDragoon wrote:
It seems the problem stems from Guardian Shield reducing marines ability to fight protoss units early. You could probably hold those pushes on a fast expo with a boatload of marines, but with guardian shield, you're doing 3 damage to zealots and immortals.
Would making Shield an upgrade on the Cyber Core help? Its not like Toss needs it right away, as it usually doesn't get used until that first push by either side. Would it set Toss back just enough to allow terran the chance to fast expand with marines?
YES
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Everyone needs to SHUT THE FUCK UP and get back to the topic at hand. What the fuck are we even arguing about now? Semantics? All you top tier players are better than this. You're what makes this forum good and this is the most shitty, disappointing thread I've read in a while.
Back to the topic:
I feel the issue lies mid game.
Early game, Terran has a few choices of viable opens, such as Marauder expand, rine/bunker expand, reaper harass expand, etc.
Once the game transitions into mid game, as a Terran, I always feel like I'm on the defensive. Protoss always seems to possess an army superior to mine. It feels superior in numbers (as a result of possible build times as DeMusliM mentioned) and in force (Immortals shutting down anything Mech, Guardian shield shutting down anything that counters immortals, and colossus cleaning up the rest).
With Protoss having so much map control mid-game, they're able to freely expand and gain an unstoppable economic advantage, and eventually steam-roll the Terran.
Ideas I've yet to try myself but perhaps you top tier players could give a try:
- Once your natural is secured, pump out 3-4 banshees and just use them to kill probes going to build expansions? Use them in the same way mines/vultures were used in mid game BW TvP; to delay the Protoss from taking his 3rd/4th
- Turtle into Battle Cruisers: Take your natural with bunkers/tanks and transition to BC's. With 4-5 BC's, you can start picking off the Protoss expansions one by one. The protoss ground army will be ineffective at defending. If they attempt to base-trade, your defenses should shut them down (marines + bunkers/siege tanks/ghosts/depo walls). This will force the Protoss to switch to Warp rays, which will then be countered nicely by your massive accumulations of marines (while pumping BC's, any extra minerals will be spend on marines).
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Incontrol can keep his damn immortal, its the sentries that need a nerf stick
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I think there are some pretty important questions that need to be answered here without the bickering and general ad-hominem. Out of the whole thread i've seen some common questions/issues come up and I don't think we've really hit on many serious answers or even debated answers yet:
1) What builds stop the immo push regularly, and how have the still-successful terrans dealt with it?
-Phrozen's replays (and some of our highly ranked terran contributors) suggest there is an answer, but is there some drawback to that answer? If so, what is it about this answer that perpetuates problems into the late game? I don't think the blanket statement "Toss t3> *" accurately describes the game right now. Toss air is still abyssmal compared to it's counterparts. Toss templar tech hasn't been a notable threat since the plethora of nerfs. What is it then that drives the steak into a terran's figurative heart after he fails to contain a toss from the get-go (as in last patch)?
2) What contiually drives the protoss to immortal pushing in almost every mu?
-As with the above, I think it has to do with the relative weakness of gateway units, stargate units, and complete necessity of obs (espcially when banshees are a potential threat) at a very early stage of the game. Would we see more diversity with an immo nerf? I highly doubt we'd see anything more than a continued protoss struggle to stay relavent with so few viable opens, but this is also something worthy of debate.
3) If Immortals are a red-herring in the mystery, what terran unit changes would stabalize the early game?
-Marines and Reactors were nerfed for good reason and I don't think anyone can ignore the threat of marine/scv all-in coming back. That being said, is there an adjustment to be made here without recalling prior patches imbalance?
4) Where to Zerg fit in all of this?
-We're very focused on PvT in this thread, and it's fine to single out a matchup we think has some issues to resolve, but we can't look at units, abilities, or upgrades in the isolated vacume of one MU. Taking a big hit to immortals and/or sentries is a significant harm to PvZ, which is already a tough matchup. I think it's a justifiable statement that Terran have a much easier time with zerg (and have a lot more units viable for use against zerg) than their Toss counterparts. So if we make it to the point of pinning down a unit or set of units that may be out of line, we can't ignore what this would do in T/PvZ.
FOR REFERENCE - Kawaii's TvP
Azz v Kawaii 3
Azz v Kawaii 2
Azz v Kawaii 1
For Irony - Demuslim as Toss (PvT) (sorry, had to be posted)
Demuslim PvT
In my own humble opinion, as a mid-level plat player who went random for most of beta, I do not think the matchup is borked, but i'm open to the idea that testing can indeed prove me wrong. I think we need more of the top players here to share replays, play practice matches with one another, and start a serious diologue. I think a week of serious cooperation would yeild a lot of useful information, potential strategies, and get rid of some of the animosity here.
We shouldn't loose sight of the fact that this is a beta, and we're in it to test. I'm not sure how many top players are already eyeing cash prizes and being draconian about guarding any creative and successful strategies they might have, but that seems about as useful here as saying "all X-race players are just lazy people." So let's get the diologue open, let's get more replays into this thread, and let's have an intelligent conversation to drown out the ignorance and belligerence.
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On April 15 2010 07:03 FREEloss_ca wrote:
Everyone needs to SHUT THE FUCK UP and get back to the topic at hand. What the fuck are we even arguing about now? Semantics? All you top tier players are better than this. You're what makes this forum good and this is the most shitty, disappointing thread I've read in a while.
Back to the topic:
I feel the issue lies mid game.
Early game, Terran has a few choices of viable opens, such as Marauder expand, rine/bunker expand, reaper harass expand, etc.
Once the game transitions into mid game, as a Terran, I always feel like I'm on the defensive. Protoss always seems to possess an army superior to mine. It feels superior in numbers (as a result of possible build times as DeMusliM mentioned) and in force (Immortals/Sentries shutting down anything Mech, and colossus cleaning up the rest).
With Protoss having so much map control mid-game, they're able to freely expand and gain an unstoppable economy advantage, and eventually steam-roll the Terran.
Where is Terran's early game? The build that punishes a techer? Seriously what can terran do to really even threaten a protoss BEFORE robo? ( and I am not talking 1 reaper running around his base)
The problem is every single Terran build has to do with a fast expansion. fux that I want to prevent him from going robo so easily by pressuring him early and often. maybe make him build a few zealots else he will die
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EPT
