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On April 15 2010 07:03 FREEloss_ca wrote:
Everyone needs to SHUT THE FUCK UP and get back to the topic at hand. What the fuck are we even arguing about now? Semantics? All you top tier players are better than this. You're what makes this forum good and this is the most shitty, disappointing thread I've read in a while.
Back to the topic:
I feel the issue lies mid game.
Early game, Terran has a few choices of viable opens, such as Marauder expand, rine/bunker expand, reaper harass expand, etc.
Once the game transitions into mid game, as a Terran, I always feel like I'm on the defensive. Protoss always seems to possess an army superior to mine. It feels superior in numbers (as a result of possible build times as DeMusliM mentioned) and in force (Immortals shutting down anything Mech, Guardian shield shutting down anything that counters immortals, and colossus cleaning up the rest).
With Protoss having so much map control mid-game, they're able to freely expand and gain an unstoppable economic advantage, and eventually steam-roll the Terran.
Ideas I've yet to try myself but perhaps you top tier players could give a try:
- Once your natural is secured, pump out 3-4 banshees and just use them to kill probes going to build expansions? Use them in the same way mines/vultures were used in mid game BW TvP; to delay the Protoss from taking his 3rd/4th
- Turtle into Battle Cruisers: Take your natural with bunkers/tanks and transition to BC's. With 4-5 BC's, you can start picking off the Protoss expansions one by one. The protoss ground army will be ineffective at defending. If they attempt to base-trade, your defenses should shut them down (marines + bunkers/siege tanks/ghosts/depo walls). This will force the Protoss to switch to Warp rays, which will then be countered nicely by your massive accumulations of marines (while pumping BC's, any extra minerals will be spend on marines).
Why not thors? If you start massing them early on for them to build up energy, they should really have no problem dealing with immortals. the 250 mm cannon does not activate hardened shields and pretty effectively kill immortals. In addition, during the midgame, getting ghosts with EMPs shouldnt' be much of a problem. In addition, Thors murder practically any Protoss gateway unit in 1 hit.
Also, banshees are ridiculous. I don't really see why they're not used more for map control. Even without cloak they have the highest AtG dps (second only to battlecruisers and carriers). protoss has absolutely horrible AA. Banshees should be able to be used really well for harassment and map control. they can also be rushed for early game to hold off the immortal rush. one banshee can effectively shut down the early immortal push because it's unlikely that the protoss will mass stalkers to counter. even if they do bring stalkers with the push, marauders rape stalkers easily.
Also, I really don't understand why it's so important for Terran to have to FE when Protoss never FEs...
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On April 15 2010 07:08 Tiamat wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2010 07:03 FREEloss_ca wrote:
Everyone needs to SHUT THE FUCK UP and get back to the topic at hand. What the fuck are we even arguing about now? Semantics? All you top tier players are better than this. You're what makes this forum good and this is the most shitty, disappointing thread I've read in a while.
Back to the topic:
I feel the issue lies mid game.
Early game, Terran has a few choices of viable opens, such as Marauder expand, rine/bunker expand, reaper harass expand, etc.
Once the game transitions into mid game, as a Terran, I always feel like I'm on the defensive. Protoss always seems to possess an army superior to mine. It feels superior in numbers (as a result of possible build times as DeMusliM mentioned) and in force (Immortals/Sentries shutting down anything Mech, and colossus cleaning up the rest).
With Protoss having so much map control mid-game, they're able to freely expand and gain an unstoppable economy advantage, and eventually steam-roll the Terran. Where is Terran's early game? The build that punishes a techer? Seriously what can terran do to really even threaten a protoss BEFORE robo? ( and I am not talking 1 reaper running around his base) The problem is every single Terran build has to do with a fast expansion. fux that I want to prevent him from going robo so easily by pressuring him early and often. maybe make him build a few zealots else he will die
That's a good point. If Terran chooses to FE, then Protoss, by all means can tech straight to Robo. But then perhaps Terran should possess a viable opening other than FE, that forces the Protoss to not tech to robo, and instead get zeals/stalkers/sentries/extra gates/etc?
On April 15 2010 07:14 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2010 07:03 FREEloss_ca wrote:
Everyone needs to SHUT THE FUCK UP and get back to the topic at hand. What the fuck are we even arguing about now? Semantics? All you top tier players are better than this. You're what makes this forum good and this is the most shitty, disappointing thread I've read in a while.
Back to the topic:
I feel the issue lies mid game.
Early game, Terran has a few choices of viable opens, such as Marauder expand, rine/bunker expand, reaper harass expand, etc.
Once the game transitions into mid game, as a Terran, I always feel like I'm on the defensive. Protoss always seems to possess an army superior to mine. It feels superior in numbers (as a result of possible build times as DeMusliM mentioned) and in force (Immortals shutting down anything Mech, Guardian shield shutting down anything that counters immortals, and colossus cleaning up the rest).
With Protoss having so much map control mid-game, they're able to freely expand and gain an unstoppable economic advantage, and eventually steam-roll the Terran.
Ideas I've yet to try myself but perhaps you top tier players could give a try:
- Once your natural is secured, pump out 3-4 banshees and just use them to kill probes going to build expansions? Use them in the same way mines/vultures were used in mid game BW TvP; to delay the Protoss from taking his 3rd/4th
- Turtle into Battle Cruisers: Take your natural with bunkers/tanks and transition to BC's. With 4-5 BC's, you can start picking off the Protoss expansions one by one. The protoss ground army will be ineffective at defending. If they attempt to base-trade, your defenses should shut them down (marines + bunkers/siege tanks/ghosts/depo walls). This will force the Protoss to switch to Warp rays, which will then be countered nicely by your massive accumulations of marines (while pumping BC's, any extra minerals will be spend on marines). Why not thors? If you start massing them early on for them to build up energy, they should really have no problem dealing with immortals. the 250 mm cannon does not activate hardened shields and pretty effectively kill immortals. In addition, during the midgame, getting ghosts with EMPs shouldnt' be much of a problem. In addition, Thors murder practically any Protoss gateway unit in 1 hit. Also, banshees are ridiculous. I don't really see why they're not used more for map control. Even without cloak they have the highest AtG dps (second only to battlecruisers and carriers). protoss has absolutely horrible AA. Banshees should be able to be used really well for harassment and map control.
We need to differentiate "harass" from "map control". Harass implies the ability to hit-and-run, take pot shots at economy, prevent/delay expanding, hinder unit production, etc. "Map control" implies having the dominant army, giving you the ability to freely do what you want, essentially.
Banshees are great, but stalkers, especially stalkers with blink, will decimate a group of banshees in a blink of an eye if you miss-micro them just once. That's why I feel banshees are best used for harassment, as opposed to being a core unit in the Terran army; they're too squishy.
Thors are great, I often get a couple as defense while I'm expanding to my 3rd. The issue is their lack of mobility, and how long they take to build. They're a fairly high-teir unit, and building an effective number of them, while having to get ghosts, as well as your core army, takes far longer and costs a lot, compared to what Protoss can muster up in the same amount of time frame, with the same cost in resources.
There needs to be an EFFECTIVE way for Terran to competitively take map-control mid game. Not WIN the game, but allow them to take a 3rd and 4th, just as easy as it currently is for Protoss to do so.
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protoss has been strong since beta began...was actually quite OP the first patches lmao, why are some players like incontrol acting like P has had it sexy hard? lol...
i do agree though that many, many Terran's overreact about their precious marauder. The nerf on the marauder did not change much about how strong the unit itself can be, and it was not cool to see such ease of just massing marauder...
but now that it has been weakened, it has fleshed out just how strong the immortal/sentries are. T lost their marine numbers vs P pushes, they lost marauder flexibility vs the same early game immortal/stalker/sentry pushes. Now, P can counter all of T's tech paths with a click of the immortal icon or collosus icon.
You cannot afford ghostmech off of one base. and if you can, it's pretty sketchy. And you definitely cannot be aggressive with infantry anymore vs P early game. But they can all-in or do strong pushes and be ahead in economy a lot of the game.
It's not like T dunno wtf they are doing...it is clear good T have tried everything. ghostmech, marauder/ghost, airmech, 8raxes (which actually suck vs good P) etc.
the only way you can comfortably stay even econ wise, is by building 5-7 bunkers (ridiculous i know) vs these early gateway/immortal pushes, so you can have your natural up, and then you can go from there. But it's difficult.
and it's not like if you EMP an immortal or two or seven that they become useless with P mass. They still fuck you lol.
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Terran has to go bio vs protoss whatsoever, colossus + storm vs emp and vikings. I really wonder who wins that battle!
-_-
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On April 15 2010 07:18 avilo wrote:
protoss has been strong since beta began...was actually quite OP the first patches lmao, why are some players like incontrol acting like P has had it sexy hard? lol...
i do agree though that many, many Terran's overreact about their precious marauder. The nerf on the marauder did not change much about how strong the unit itself can be, and it was not cool to see such ease of just massing marauder...
but now that it has been weakened, it has fleshed out just how strong the immortal/sentries are. T lost their marine numbers vs P pushes, they lost marauder flexibility vs the same early game immortal/stalker/sentry pushes. Now, P can counter all of T's tech paths with a click of the immortal icon or collosus icon.
You cannot afford ghostmech off of one base. and if you can, it's pretty sketchy. And you definitely cannot be aggressive with infantry anymore vs P early game. But they can all-in or do strong pushes and be ahead in economy a lot of the game.
It's not like T dunno wtf they are doing...it is clear good T have tried everything. ghostmech, marauder/ghost, airmech, 8raxes (which actually suck vs good P) etc.
the only way you can comfortably stay even econ wise, is by building 5-7 bunkers (ridiculous i know) vs these early gateway/immortal pushes, so you can have your natural up, and then you can go from there. But it's difficult.
and it's not like if you EMP an immortal or two or seven that they become useless with P mass. They still fuck you lol.
Rush an early banshee? The early push of immortal/zealot/sentry will absolutely die to just a single banshee. The robo tech can not deal with air at all. Stalkers are Protoss's softcounter to air, but they're not ideal in any way. In addition, early banshees allow you to harass. It's not necessary to 2port banshee. Just 1port banshee even without cloak will pretty effectively stop immortal pushes.
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On April 15 2010 07:07 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:I think there are some pretty important questions that need to be answered here without the bickering and general ad-hominem. Out of the whole thread i've seen some common questions/issues come up and I don't think we've really hit on many serious answers or even debated answers yet: 1) What builds stop the immo push regularly, and how have the still-successful terrans dealt with it?-Phrozen's replays (and some of our highly ranked terran contributors) suggest there is an answer, but is there some drawback to that answer? If so, what is it about this answer that perpetuates problems into the late game? I don't think the blanket statement "Toss t3> *" accurately describes the game right now. Toss air is still abyssmal compared to it's counterparts. Toss templar tech hasn't been a notable threat since the plethora of nerfs. What is it then that drives the steak into a terran's figurative heart after he fails to contain a toss from the get-go (as in last patch)? 2) What contiually drives the protoss to immortal pushing in almost every mu?-As with the above, I think it has to do with the relative weakness of gateway units, stargate units, and complete necessity of obs (espcially when banshees are a potential threat) at a very early stage of the game. Would we see more diversity with an immo nerf? I highly doubt we'd see anything more than a continued protoss struggle to stay relavent with so few viable opens, but this is also something worthy of debate. 3) If Immortals are a red-herring in the mystery, what terran unit changes would stabalize the early game? -Marines and Reactors were nerfed for good reason and I don't think anyone can ignore the threat of marine/scv all-in coming back. That being said, is there an adjustment to be made here without recalling prior patches imbalance? 4) Where to Zerg fit in all of this?-We're very focused on PvT in this thread, and it's fine to single out a matchup we think has some issues to resolve, but we can't look at units, abilities, or upgrades in the isolated vacume of one MU. Taking a big hit to immortals and/or sentries is a significant harm to PvZ, which is already a tough matchup. I think it's a justifiable statement that Terran have a much easier time with zerg (and have a lot more units viable for use against zerg) than their Toss counterparts. So if we make it to the point of pinning down a unit or set of units that may be out of line, we can't ignore what this would do in T/PvZ. FOR REFERENCE - Kawaii's TvPAzz v Kawaii 3Azz v Kawaii 2Azz v Kawaii 1For Irony - Demuslim as Toss (PvT) (sorry, had to be posted) Demuslim PvTIn my own humble opinion, as a mid-level plat player who went random for most of beta, I do not think the matchup is borked, but i'm open to the idea that testing can indeed prove me wrong. I think we need more of the top players here to share replays, play practice matches with one another, and start a serious diologue. I think a week of serious cooperation would yeild a lot of useful information, potential strategies, and get rid of some of the animosity here. We shouldn't loose sight of the fact that this is a beta, and we're in it to test. I'm not sure how many top players are already eyeing cash prizes and being draconian about guarding any creative and successful strategies they might have, but that seems about as useful here as saying "all X-race players are just lazy people." So let's get the diologue open, let's get more replays into this thread, and let's have an intelligent conversation to drown out the ignorance and belligerence.
Interesting. I think the problem with the builds I talked about is that if Protoss quick techs to Collosi as opposed to Immortals, the Terran will lose and Warp Prism drops with Collosi will be very effective. By the way, my name is Prozen, not Phrozen. =].
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I think maybe a simple fix to all of this is lowering the gas cost of some Terran units (maybe the ghost? Or maybe even the Siege tank?). "Not enough Vespene Gas" is the story of my life when it comes to TvP. That's why Terrans always feel they have to FE, because the army a Protoss can build off one base feels superior to the army a Terran can build off one base.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
@avilo: P wasn't "too strong" dude. They had the lowest win percentage overall after the WG nerf and it carried until this last patch.
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On April 15 2010 07:24 Prozen wrote:
Interesting. I think the problem with the builds I talked about is that if Protoss quick techs to Collosi as opposed to Immortals, the Terran will lose and Warp Prism drops with Collosi will be very effective. By the way, my name is Prozen, not Phrozen. =].
That's odd. I didn't think the colossus got nearly as much press for a reason.
Sorry for the typo(s). It was a long post and i'm at work. =)
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pvt has favored toss really hard ever since beta came out. the only reason terran has been winning is because of these cheap wins with 1011rax rush or the 1rax fe by me that used to stop everything and later on the marauder fe, dunno who invented that but right now we r out of cheap and abusive ways to win against a toss.
we have to play real and straight up and right now this is showing everyone the true colors of this mu. its not like terrans lose like tosses did before, we dont die vs special rush or any unbeatable fe by toss, we lose in every single aspect of the game. every single part about the game is p>t atm. if you think im wrong then sure, this is just a theory but sit and watch with me for a few weeks now. they will nerf toss more and more and start buffing up terran. the only way we won was through early game advantages or rushes, its the truth
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tomorrow its demuslim vs hasuobs, that will be interesting 
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On April 15 2010 07:36 MorroW wrote:
pvt has favored toss really hard ever since beta came out. the only reason terran has been winning is because of these cheap wins with 1011rax rush or the 1rax fe by me that used to stop everything and later on the marauder fe, dunno who invented that but right now we r out of cheap and abusive ways to win against a toss.
we have to play real and straight up and right now this is showing everyone the true colors of this mu. its not like terrans lose like tosses did before, we dont die vs special rush or any unbeatable fe by toss, we lose in every single aspect of the game. every single part about the game is p>t atm. if you think im wrong then sure, this is just a theory but sit and watch with me for a few weeks now. they will nerf toss more and more and start buffing up terran. the only way we won was through early game advantages or rushes, its the truth
Wow, terrans have to play straight up and "real" for once?? Thats surprising, usually Terrans just abuse their way to wins. Protoss has had to play "real" and "straight up" since the first of beta.
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It feels like terran has no strong "Tier X" transition. Like, toss has high templar//colossus. Zerg has T3 Ultra/Broodlord. Terran's Raven with hunterseeker (needs FC, so high tier) are really good but you need 125 energy which is damn high. Also they get owned by feedback. Thors feel kinda bad when immortals are better than non-blink stalkers in every way that matters. [Normal DPS, vs armoured DPS, health, [-20hp vs hardened shields] 1 unit vs 2, same cost] So the toss will eventually be making a lot of them.
So basically aside from ghosts/medivacs i guess T really has no super powerful gas units, and none that you need to get past "T1" tech. So terrans get mass minerals and mass MM+ some ghosts. The problem is later is the game colossus and especially storm are extremely powerful against T1. Protosses complain it's the terran not transitioning and "abusing T1" when terrans can't really transition to anything so they just keep massing MM and have to win the econ war badly.
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On April 15 2010 07:36 MorroW wrote:
we have to play real and straight up and right now this is showing everyone the true colors of this mu. its not like terrans lose like tosses did before, we dont die vs special rush or any unbeatable fe by toss, we lose in every single aspect of the game. every single part about the game is p>t atm. if you think im wrong then sure, this is just a theory but sit and watch with me for a few weeks now. they will nerf toss more and more and start buffing up terran. the only way we won was through early game advantages or rushes, its the truth
See, this is where I think the divergence of opinion occurs. I don't see a lot of terran plays claiming that protoss is just a superior race on the whole at every point in the game and with any unit combination. A lot of T have suggested (for example) that banshee/viking is very strong vs. P and I haven't see any Protoss deny this, or come up with creative ways to stop it other than spending a lot on obs (which have no combat role but to detect). There have been replays to illustrate the strength of Air v Toss aswell. That isn't mean to say "well, just go air," but rather to point out that people have already discovered a weakness to protoss that lasts the whole game long. I've hardly ever seen creative raven use like in TvZ against toss either. Seems like point defense drone would definitly have a place against stalkers (which almost always consitutes the bulk of protoss AA). Again, I don't have any replay for comparison because of the lack of replays to draw on.
I have to respect your skill MorroW, but posts like that are just lazy. You aren't providing replays, you aren't pointing out any single point of confliction to debate. Instead you're just grossly generalizing that P>T "in all aspects," and expecting that your status as a player makes it gospel to the rest of us.
I would invite you to post a few of your own replays that have convinced you of this situation, as well as coming up with more accurate corrections for the problem than "toss nerfs."
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On April 15 2010 07:19 Kare wrote:
Terran has to go bio vs protoss whatsoever, colossus + storm vs emp and vikings. I really wonder who wins that battle!
-_-
i fucking hate it, I never win this battles when protoss army hits critical number my MMM ball even with emp just melts - my horrible micro isnt helping either, terran bio isnt rly cost vs colo/storm (theres no other option anyway) even if i manage to win toss can instantly warp new HTs with enough energy for storm...
i wish mech was viable in pvt ;/
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On April 15 2010 08:03 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:
I have to respect your skill MorroW, but posts like that are just lazy. You aren't providing replays, you aren't pointing out any single point of confliction to debate. Instead you're just grossly generalizing that P>T "in all aspects," and expecting that your status as a player makes it gospel to the rest of us.
At this point it's all speculation from both camps. The entire matchup is so based around early play that it's doubtful we've seen a true evolution of the late game in tvp to truly see how it matches up actually works transitionally.
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On April 15 2010 08:06 I_Love_Bacon wrote:
At this point it's all speculation from both camps. The entire matchup is so based around early play that it's doubtful we've seen a true evolution of the late game in tvp to truly see how it matches up actually works transitionally.
But isn't that the point of the discussion here? To eliminate this monotenous theorycraft that amounts to little more than snyde nit-picking on either side? We've truly seen a tiny fraction of what half these terran (or protoss) players could produce as evidence to their arugments, but neither side has come forward with the true plethora of information needed to adress the topic.
I really think the Terran here espcially need to divulge more replays. Simply put to rest some of the arguments that you aren't trying a lot of strategies by proving that you are being creative and still not getting anywhere. The whole back and forth of "I've tried everything," vs. "You haven't tried anything," is all that can come out of posts like I quoted from MorroW. We need tangible evidence to debate with. Not more hyperbole.
Are any of the top players here brave enough to set down a lot of replays to further their arguemnts, or will we continue to see baseless refrences to "what i've found since the patch," and "what i knew all along," etc. with the underlying assumption that said player encompasses far too much knowledge to be accurately conveyed through the imperfect medium of written communication.
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Well, I think there are some points that are wrong with this MU in my opinion.
a) You have no timingwindow to go out on the map and try to get some controll/pressure on the P.
In every single Match i've seen the P was the one that reacts.
1 Base vs 1 Base - P does what he wants.
1 Base + FE vs 1 Base - P tries to crush you.
1 Base + FE vs 1 Base + FE - You wont get a good timingwindow again.
1 Base vs 1 Base FE - This is the only situation in which I feel comfortable to putt pressure on the P. But you need 2nd gas for OC to get out 1-2 Ghosts pretty early to gain enough energy for 2-4 EMPs, otherwise you cant do it. And how many P have you seen that try to FE?
On some maps its not even possible to take your natural (Blistering Sands or Desert Oasis), on others it is hardly managable (like LT or Kulas Ravine)
The reason for this is simple - without shells your marauders are slower then stalker and they dont have the ability to regen hp (shield). So you can pressure them into their base and let them stuck behind a wallin that a immortal can rip into pieces in seconds.
But without it, you cant count on a well placed EMP at the choke.
b) Bunker are useless when Immortals come into play. Even in your defensiv position you are in a disadvantage. Together with Guardian Shield it feels like a P is just steamrolling over every defense you can build.
c) If you fight outside your base, let it be a open field and it comes to the clash, you can place yourself as good as you want it, the angle may be perfect and it doesnt look to bad for you ->
Forcefield pushes your army around like they where not even there.
You get split appart and your army is taken out step by step.
All these points lead to a point in the game where you need to expand to gain your 3rd, but you are not able to. You are getting behind in Units/Eco and without the 3rd its quite hard to get something more then just bio+ghosts+medivacs.
Tanks as support -> not enough gas
Banshees as support -> not enough gas
Vikings as support -> you often NEED them, but you have to cut down ghosts/medivacs for that and often marauders/upgrades.
So I'm asking you: Where is my timingwindow to take some mapcontroll?
I have some sugesstions too:
- Rework Forcefield that you can't place it on top of units. Maybe give it Health or Energy like a Point Defense Drone so you can use EMP to get rid of it.
- Rework Immortal Buildtime and their dmg to buildings, for their price they are the fastest build unit in the game and their dmg to buildings is to huge. Its so huge that protoss start do do Immortaldrops to snipe buildings. Losing techlabs/reactors and depots against this in such a short time is just not fair.
- Rework Guardian Shield - make it a upgrade at the core or higher the energycost, in my eyes its compareable to the Point-Defense-Drone which is a high-tier ability with huge energy- and tech-costs.
- Rework 250mm Cannon - Lower the dmg and higher the range.
- Rework(Nerf) Banshees - Dunno how, they impact TvZ also.
- Work at Bunker/PF - In my opinion PF shouldn't be that powerful and bunker shouldn't be that weak.
To be honest I think there need to be more changes to T(nerfs), especially Late-Air forces, but since I dont come to that place in the game I cant figure them out right now.
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if they nerf anything in this matchup, it should be banshees.. Holy shit they do insane damage vs everything protoss has. Basically only counter is phoenix, which vikings take out easy. Who cares if your immortal army can take out their little tank/marine army (which immortals are made to counter btw), when 10 banshees are pounding your stalkers down like carriers vs marines.
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I watch a lot of high lev replays and I lol everytime I see in any PvT matchup the P generally will have his Cyber Core finished before the Terran even starts his factory because of the 100 gas cost on the factory (if the Terran put a tech labs on his rax and made any gas unit you know for sure you are behind a tech level already).
Then the P answer to their fast Robo bay is 'go Ghost'... yet further away from a T's tech tree. Then they complain all T makes is MMM and ghosts.... duh!
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EPT
