Terran vs Protoss - Page 13

On April 15 2010 08:22 zizzefex wrote:
Then the P answer to their fast Robo bay is 'go Ghost'... yet further away from a T's tech tree. Then they complain all T makes is MMM and ghosts.... duh!

On April 15 2010 08:26 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:


The Ghost Academy only requires the Barracks. I do not understand how that's further down the tech tree?

On April 15 2010 08:49 Ryuu314 wrote:
Can someone please explain why it's so hard to get ghost? All you need is a ghost academy which is immediately available after barracks. It's pretty cheap (only 50 gas) and ghost come with EMP. Yes, ghost cost 150 gas, but Protoss has to spend 100 gas per immortal and 100 gas per sentry, both of which are crucial. Furthermore, to detect cloaked ghost, Protoss needs to spend 100 gas on obs. I really don't quite see why it's so hard to get ghost... Yes, the factory is delayed, but as many people have already been whining saying, factory tech isn't that useful.

Another path is to just rush banshees. I must've posted this like 3 times already and no one's explained why rushing banshees is bad. I dont' mean you commit completely to banshees. Just one starport with a techlab pumping banshees is really that hard/bad? You don't even need to research cloak. Without cloak, banshees are less effecient harassers, but they still rape ground very well. It should be pretty easy to get at least one banshee out in time for the initial Immortal push. Keep in mind that the only AA the initial immortal push usually will have are sentries, and they are not effecient against banshees at all. If Protoss adds stalkers, their push would be not only delayed (due to higher mineral, gas, and time cost of stalkers) but Marauders (which you would have anyways) would rape stalkers.

Can someone please explain those two things to me?

On April 15 2010 08:49 Ryuu314 wrote:
Can someone please explain why it's so hard to get ghost? All you need is a ghost academy which is immediately available after barracks. It's pretty cheap (only 50 gas) and ghost come with EMP. Yes, ghost cost 150 gas, but Protoss has to spend 100 gas per immortal and 100 gas per sentry, both of which are crucial. Furthermore, to detect cloaked ghost, Protoss needs to spend 100 gas on obs. I really don't quite see why it's so hard to get ghost... Yes, the factory is delayed, but as many people have already been whining saying, factory tech isn't that useful anyways that early.

On April 15 2010 08:54 shinosai wrote:


I can explain the second. Banshees are awesome, but surviving to get banshees is the issue. Protoss aggression usually starts before the starports, and it takes at least 3 raxes to put a stop to an early protoss attack. Now if you've been putting resources into 3 raxes then you will have very, very late banshees.

Like I've said earlier in the thread, I've never lost to a protoss doing a dual rax -> dual port strategy after the banshees started coming out. But the problem is getting there, when you have to put nearly all your resources into fending off the first attack.

For your question, I don't think anyone says that ghosts are hard to get. What they are saying is getting ghosts and tanks or ghosts and banshees is hard to get off of one base.

On April 15 2010 09:01 Slayer91 wrote:
(..)
So, only getting 1 tech lab 1 marauder and 1 ghost with upgrades that are NEEDED to make mass marauder/ghost viable you already need 600-650 gas.
(..)
Protoss numbers
(..)

On April 15 2010 09:09 Ryuu314 wrote:

But what if you just go 1 rax and immediately a rush for banshees off a single port?

Factory immediately once you reach 100 gas, then start starport asap as soon as factory finishes. I don't know how fast it takes to get the factory, but from there, it takes 60 seconds to build the intial factory, while that's building you save up gas so when it's done you start starport immediately along with a tech lab on either your fact or rax. Starport finishes in 50 seconds, which is plenty of time to save up 100 gas for the first banshee. After switching ur buildings to get a starport w/ tech lab (which shouldnt' take more than a few seconds), you start banshee production, which takes another 60 seconds. So basically, from the moment u start your factory, you'll have the first banshee out in a little more than 170 seconds. That's just under three minutes. Once you get that first banshee, it should be easy to fend off the intial immortal push.

The initial immortal push will consist of 1-2 immortals and some gateway units. The amount of time it takes to get those immortals + robo is 165 seconds for 2 immortals, counting from when you start the robo. The first banshee pops out 5 seconds after that, and in my scenario for Protoss, I'm neglecting the build time of all the other gateway units. There's also a travel time, which is always going to be longer than 5 seconds -.-. If Protoss pushes as soon as they finish 1 immortal, at 115 seconds, their force will be a lot smaller and easier to fend off anyways.

Obviously, this is all mathcraft and in an actual game it'll be different. But the discrepancy between this and an actual game shouldn't be too big.

On April 15 2010 09:26 Ryuu314 wrote:
@Floop and Shinosai:
Stalkers can counter banshees, yes, but it takes quite a decent investment to get 2 stalkers. That's as much as 1 immortal or 1 sentry or 2 zealots.. Furthermore, Marauders, which you should have anyways, rape stalkers 1v1 and en mass.

In addition, by racing the wind to try to get the first banshee out asap, you will likely have an excess of minerals, which can be used to add on a (late) second barrack, which should help reinforce your defensive line when the push actually arrives.