Terran vs Protoss - Page 8

On April 15 2010 02:13 Mirhi wrote:
I am trying to figure out why Terrans are complaining this much about an 80 second 100/100 upgrade. You can accomplish the same map control with reapers.

On April 13 2010 04:11 BlasiuS wrote:

pre-patch 8 Terran won most of their games against protoss with builds that revolved around marauders starting out with slow:

1. 1 rax marauder FE: this worked because marauders w/slow prevented early harass on your FE. Now that marauders don't start with slow, zealots are WAY stronger v terran in the early game; this build dies to aggressive zealot harass, which will run terran over before shells are finished.

2. fast (proxy) reaper -> marauder: this build worked because reapers forced stalkers, which were then countered by marauders, which could be made immediately after 2-3 reapers, and since they started with slow, they beat stalkers very easily. Now that marauders don't start with slow, this build is unable to put any follow-up pressure after the reapers. Before shells are researched, Stalkers > Marauders in small numbers.

3. fast (proxy) marauder: this relied on marauders hitting protoss before immortals came out. It worked because marauders w/slow > stalkers or zealots that early in the game. Now that marauders don't start with slow, this build doesn't work for the same reason 1 rax marauder FE doesn't work: you get run over by zealots or zealot/sentry before your shells can benefit you.

None of these 3 builds work anymore, because marauders don't start with slow. You don't seem to recognize that it was a BIG change. Terran was hardest hit on build #1, now terran is struggling to find a build that they can FE with. From what I've seen, MoRRoW has the best FE build, with 1 rax marines -> FE -> MASS shield marines + at least 4 bunkers, and pray toss doesn't attack you before your shield upgrade is done. Even then, zealot/sentry just rapes, force field prevents SCVs from repairing bunkers, and guardian shield basically hard-counters marines.

On April 15 2010 02:46 shinosai wrote:
Hmm, just thinking here, but 4 rax into expansion with bunkers followed up by banshees (or vikings) would be a pretty strong strategy vs toss. Not sure I'm convinced that it can stop a 4 gate with good sentry use, but if it does, that may be a good way to play the game.

On April 15 2010 02:37 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
@JTPROG: me of all people?

You fucking forget: I played protoss THIS entire time. I played protoss when we were the only race declining with a win % while terran had a near 15% win boost. I WORKED at it and did everything I could. I made 1 bitch post where I said "blizzard has a week" but after that even I realized I was an idiot and found a way.

I sit on a vent with multiple terran players who complain on a daily basis about how impossible this is. I come into this channel and hear a group of terran players me-owing like cats about how they need help from papa blizzard or else they will cry more tears. LITERALLY the only change they made in this last patch was making the grenade upgradable instead of FREE and everyone thinks the matchup is broken? That CAN'T be right.

Fucking OP is talking about how you HAVE to go marauders which you can't do cost effectively now because of 100 minerals/100 gas? That isn't right guys... it is the difference between 1 marauder. Do you guys actually play this game? I haven't seen a battle where had he had that 1 more marauder the entire game would have swishedddddddddd in his favor each time. And don't tell me the upgrade time smashes the meta game either. If you can't 1 rax marauder pressure a P WHILE EXPANDING anymore and you think it is the games fault then guess what? You need to change the way you play.

And to answer the deflecting people: YES I've played terran since the patch. I coach several platinum protoss players and I TvP them almost daily: AND WIN. Reaper harrass is still as strong as ever. Mixing tanks late game STILL as strong as ever.. no protoss has 10+ immortals late game and if they do you're an IDIOT for not scouting it and going bio + laughing at their easily countered tech choice. Mass templar Louder? Serious? This isn't new.. SCBW had mass templar only they were BETTER. I cannot fathom every terran getting their wish inthis thread...the would be in shambles.

And you guys can bitch about my "generalizing" when I regard most of you as "terran players." That is fine but uh, how many complaining in here don't play terran? 1? 2? Probably a few.. but I'd venture a guess this is a thread where mostly terran players vent their complaints about the mu spanning from FF to templars to immortals to collossus late game to blah blah blah.. THEY AREN'T REMOVING PROTOSS GUYS. SORRY.

On April 15 2010 02:59 xDaunt wrote:


I've made posts in other, related threads wondering why more terrans don't go mass banshee/marine against protoss. As a platinum toss (mid-high rank depending upon which of my friends is playing most heavily), I've seen this used against me a couple times (though it started with 2 port banshee as opposed to 4 rax), and I have had trouble dealing with it even when I see it coming. Any insights from the top players?

On April 15 2010 02:56 BlasiuS wrote:


I still don't understand how so many people are confused about about how big of a change this was.

READ:



terran can no longer do their standard TvP builds after patch 8. They had to re-learn the entire matchup from scratch. THAT'S why terrans are complaining. I know It's not valid complaining, but if you want to know why there are so many complaints, the reasons are clearly spelled out for you.

On April 15 2010 03:00 JTPROG wrote:
Trust me, every terran is doing what they can, but I feel like there's really not much we can do in this MU at this point, except for maybe abuse reapers early game or banshees if we can survive to them. We are changing the way we play, we have tried, it's just not working, It's not effective.

On April 15 2010 02:59 {88}iNcontroL wrote:


Yep that is exactly what I was saying. The game is perfect and muslim/morrow don't work hard enough. ORRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR I was saying that they can work as hard as they are and NOT bitch like nearly all the protoss players did when the game was obviously broken?

I STILL see morrow / muslim in the finals of nearly every tourney on EU so despite the impossible odds they've seem to have found a way. But yeah, lets nerf immortals, storm, sentry and collossus in the next patch so we can see tvt/zvz/tvz every game.

On April 15 2010 03:12 Ryuu314 wrote:

I may sound like an ass but dude...TRY HARDER. Protoss were "changing the way we play" and been trying our asses off for 8 fucking patches. Terran have been doing absolutely nothing except massing T1 for every single patch until patch 8, when low econ T1 abuse doesn't work anymore.

Yea, marine build time increase hurt Terran a lot and I agree that it should probably be changed. But honestly, to all the people who want to nerf Protoss again? Bullshit.

You can't nerf Immortals because they are the lifeline that lets Protoss kill Marauders and Roaches (to a lesser extent). You can't nerf sentry's FF because without it at that specific timing, Protoss can't fend off speedling all-ins. However, I do agree that guardian shield could probably be nerfed to lower duration or higher energy cost because the timing for it is not as crucial.

But honestly, when I watch replays of Terran complaining "omg I try everything, it's not work, nerf protoss maor pl0x" it's pretty much the same freaking Marauder early game mass. Okay, you build one Thor or ghost kinda early, but really...it's the practically the same thing. In the rare occasion when I do see someone do something different, like reaper rushes, which don't necessarily have to do anything other than delay the protoss push , Terran does perfectly fine.

/rant

On April 15 2010 03:12 Mente wrote:


How exactly have your builds differend in TvP other than multiple war gate power attacks or 1 gate into robo?

On April 15 2010 03:16 Ryuu314 wrote:

We picked different timings. Or pre-storm nerf, a lot of Protoss users went storm instead of robo. We finally figured out that sentry FF saves our ass from Marauder slow (FF utilization hasn't been here since day 1 buddy). We stopped doing 3 warpgate rushes. We stopped trying to use stalkers like dragoons. I could go on.

What has Terran done? Spam the marauder button.

@2SCV1Cup: Yes, that's true but I can also point out the 60+ page of nerf storm and nerf warpgate pl0x pages, as well.

On April 15 2010 03:23 shinosai wrote:
Couple of things. I watched all 3 replays, and my main issue with them is that I never really see much use of guardian shield. Guardian shield is the main reason marine builds aren't particularly effective. Particularly on steppes of war I feel like use of guardian shield and better micro would have been better for azz. That said, I also feel like your fourth rax is extraneous. You could probably pull this FE off with similar success with 3 raxes constantly producing, and instead of making a tech lab and a reactor, go straight to banshees.

On April 15 2010 03:25 Prozen wrote:

Perhaps, but regardless I don't think Guardian shield could have saved Azz from all those marines. Mind you, this isn't me playing, it's KawaiiRice. Do you feel the build works against the Immortal push though?

On April 15 2010 03:25 Hold-Lurker wrote:
Yea, despite what Demuslim and Marrow (and a number of mid-level plat players) say, it looks like Terran are still winning their fair share of tournaments and high level matches post-patch 8 (Cauthonlucks' 4-0 of Orb, Loner's 2-0 of Beckham, TvP 2-0 in the USA vs Canada showmatches, etc.). It feels like there's a lot of exaggeration in this thread by terran players.