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On April 14 2010 15:48 Tiamat wrote:
I can explain how TvP became so broken. It all boils down with the marine nerf Marines take way to long to build. We didnt see it before because rokkits "covered up" the issue but once they were patched out, terran cannot mass marines in time to stop protoss. I believe if they reverse the reactor nerf and the marine build time nerf things would be better
That nerf was really killer, making scvs 45 hp was enough. Extra marine build time was completely overboard. It's just that the marauder issue was covering up how bad it really hurt, so no one noticed until that was fixed and terrans were left with nothing.
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Here's a proposed patch...
Patch 9:
Protoss:
o Reduced Immortal bonus damage vs Armored by 5
o Slightly increased Immortal build time
o Hardened Shield ability reduces damage to 15
o Added new building: Observatory (required to build observer)
o Reduced Observer cost to original
o Sentry spell, Forcefield reduced in duration by 3 game-seconds
o Sentry now deals +1 damage to air, -1 damage to ground (T_T)
Terran:
o Increased SCV HP to 50
o Slightly reduced Reactor build time
o Decrease Marauder HP from 125 to 120
o Increase Factory cost from 150 to 200 minerals
o Decreased Terran Siege Tank supply to 2 food
o Decrease Terran Siege Tank vespene to 100 gas
o Slightly decrease Terran Siege Tank firing speed (unsieged)
o Fixed Hellion attack as to allow for patrol micro
[Added upgrade: spider mines for 150/150 in Tech Lab ... ha ... ha... ha...]
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I think the key is to put more pessure on toss in the very beginning. Terran has to be aggressive or to get crushed. It is interesting to notice that on a different thread, orb was complaining the exactly opposite about TvP because 10 rax super fast reaper is about always 30secs faster than the toss player to make the first stalker without crippling his own econ. (I believed orb has already counted traveling time, so the 30sec is purely for econ harassment).
So let's put aside the old MMG scheme against toss and rethink our strategy. Maybe T can start off with a fast reaper + scv bunker rush to delay P's econ or at least delay his gas in take. Meanwhile T has the option to add more BB to marauder press, tech switch to banshee or simply FE(?) depending on the degree of harassment.
Personaly, I think T's units are extremely tactical. So instead of hoping for a universal one way strategy against P, T player should probably consider a more dynamic approach, (fast tech switches for example) to keep lead in the position and force toss player to respond.
Note: just like P dominates ground, T does have air superiority over other races and i believe reaper provides perfect transition. While reapers in base, P couldn't tech (not too sure about this) and P would most likely lose scouting ability during this period ( i don't see how a good P player can leave their probes to the reaper, while preparing for a may-never-get-to-come assult). So the longer u have reapers chill around in P's base, the more u can buy.
To wrap up, all the above are theories, my personal tests do not mean a thing due to possible weak opponents but i would love to see a pro like DeMuslium to test its viability if he hasn't already done it  .
Tonight's prayer: God plz ignore orb as he is probably also praying to u to patch the reaper...
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The only way you can win vs protoss as terran now is hope he fucks up in a all in strat or something. If a good protoss plays a normal game vs a good terran, there can be no victory. Feels like Protoss is Mordor and Terran is Bree... seriously.
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On April 14 2010 16:19 exalted wrote:
Here's a proposed patch...
Patch 9:
Protoss:
o Reduced Immortal bonus damage vs Armored by 5
o Slightly increased Immortal build time
o Hardened Shield ability reduces damage to 15
o Added new building: Observatory (required to build observer)
o Reduced Observer cost to original
o Sentry spell, Forcefield reduced in duration by 3 game-seconds
o Sentry now deals +1 damage to air, -1 damage to ground (T_T)
Terran:
o Increased SCV HP to 50
o Slightly reduced Reactor build time
o Decrease Marauder HP from 125 to 120
o Increase Factory cost from 150 to 200 minerals
o Decreased Terran Siege Tank supply to 2 food
o Decrease Terran Siege Tank vespene to 100 gas
o Slightly decrease Terran Siege Tank firing speed (unsieged)
o Fixed Hellion attack as to allow for patrol micro
[Added upgrade: spider mines for 150/150 in Tech Lab ... ha ... ha... ha...]
Agree with all those except immortal hardened shield and observatory.
The very crucial thing about immortal hardened shields as it is right now, is that it takes exactly 10 hits. That good number of hits being tanked. By increasing it to 15, you're allowing much more units to do full damage to immortal shields and you also reduce the number of hits the immortal shields can tank by 1/3. That's a huge reduction. I honestly do not think immortal hardened shields are that much of a problem. Terran already has answers for it quite readily in the form of EMP. You also have to consider that immortals are key to stopping roaches in PvZ. Nerfing immortal shields by 33.3% will have large ramifications for PvZ as immortal shields already go down pretty fast in that matchup.
I don't agree with the observatory idea because detection/scouting abilities are available to Z and T at no extra tech immediately at T2. If the observatory is implemented, then Prtoss will be disadvantaged this respect. Yes, there are other hidden benefits/costs, but I think it's pretty even the way it is now.
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I do think some of those are good patch ideas, but I do not think protoss need another tech building. They have too many of those already. I think that the immortal taking too much damage to die is a problem, but it comes less from harden shield and more from not having marines there to counter. I think reactor change would fix this without need to make immortal shield bad.
If immortals died very fast to marauders after changes to their shield we would be back to using marauder only again and this is not fun to me. Already I can make enough marauders at middle to late game and overpowere immortals with stim-pack so I do not think making that part of the game easy is what we want. We need to be able to get marines at an earlier time so that early immortal push is not so hard to stop if we scout this.
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On April 14 2010 16:19 exalted wrote:
o Sentry spell, Forcefield reduced in duration by 3 game-seconds
How about making Forcefield a research spell? It screws up bunkers being repaired by SCVs by pushing the SCVs away, so early bunkers might become a reasonable strategy for Terrans to defend against Immortals. It is kinda the equivalent of slow on the Marauder and when you add it to the Cybernetics Core you have to choose between this one and Warp Gate, so Protoss is slowed down OR builds two Cores and has to spend more resources. Very early in the game the five units you push away represent a much larger portion of an army, so it seems imbalanced at that time. Turning it into a research would seem like a small enough adjustment without a big impact on the late game.
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I agree that marines need to be viable again. Right now the strat I've been having lots of success involves tricking the protoss into building lots of immortals while I mass marines. But the sad thing is I need to get both +1 attack/+1 armor/marine shields/stim just to beat the usual immortal push with marines. I really wish the reactor was more reasonable. It's only worth it for starports and factories, I'd rather build another barracks than put a reactor on it. Plus, marines build way way too slow now.
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Zurich15345 Posts
Stop making up fantasy patches please, that doesn't help anyone.
If you want to contribute to this thread please focus on TvP within the current patch level. If you think something is broken describe why exactly but don't make up your changes to the game to fix it. This just derails this thread.
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In TvP now it's like that: if you perfectly know what protoss does ( maphack is on) you stay on 50% chances to win. It turns onto who is better. And if you miss what protoss does you have almost no chances to win. I really want to think it's not imbalance but thing that terran didn't find counters yet.
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+1 for Strelok
nothing can deal with Immortal push on the low tree tech of Terran. Ghost yea, but if u get ghost u can't macro properly, less units + EMP against immortal/sentry/stalker/zealot = gg no re T_T
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On April 14 2010 11:35 zak wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2010 10:07 tubs wrote:
It's DeMusliM you idiots. One of the best terrans in EU. Of course he's tried ghosts and of course he doesn't need any replays. hahahahah this made my day ^ DeMusliM, I watch your games as much as I can. And obviously, you have a strong grasp of the game as can be seen by your build orders and economy/production. However, I would like to see more harass tactics and drops! You are extremely great at building the army and getting one, but more creative thought must be put in to use that army in the most advantageous method possible. You say you are having trouble because fighting head on with the Toss army is difficult. Well, if you are simply looking for an answer in how to fight head on with the Toss army, anyone can tell you that you just need more men, upgrades, tier 3, etc. But my other answer to your question would be to not simply focus for the inevitable Blob Vs. Blob moment of the game. It is not only about getting there the firstest with mostest. Haha I wanted to give you technical advice and build orders but you're DeMusliM.
Out of interest, where can i watch these games, i want to see too.
Trying to gather replays atm
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I'll concur the Marine build time went to crazytown after the nerfs following the SCV/Marine rush on Protoss. Marines are supposed to be the unit supplementing the Marauders, dealing enough damage to take out those Zealot 'tanks' as they kite, limiting the amount of damage Stalkers and Sentries could deal.
Then the Marine got chucked to the backburner after the nerfs, and lo and behold, we realise that Marauders ALONE work just fine at killing those Zealot tanks if you have enough space behind you. Once the Zealots go down, everything else falls to pieces, so long as your army consists of nothing but Marauders. No way Protoss could match Marauder count with an effective number of Stalkers and Immortals AND have enough Zealot tanks to keep them occupied.
I think they missed the mark with the Conc Shell nerf. They should have reduced Marauder damage vs Light, to stop them killing Zealots so damn quick. Then if you just made Marauders, you'd have to kite halfway to Char to kill them, forcing Terran to actually make Marines to kill the Zealot tanks, reducing the pressure they can put on at the start of the game, and giving them a good reason to diversify that damn army outside of Marauder spam.
I don't know how delicate the Marine and Reactor build time are balanced over the SCV+Marine rush precipice, but the Reactor build time could probably stand to come down a bit.
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On 2 player maps I have been able to consistently punish protoss for going 1gate-cyber-robotics. The basic strat (I haven't even optimized the build order yet so this wont be perfect) is to proxy 2 rax and research concussive shells SUPER early. In fact I begin research on shells before I have a single marauder out. This has the research completing around the time I have 2 marauders.
The strat could obviously work on 4 player maps as well however since timing is crucial in this strategy having to travel large distances/having to scout more compromises the strengths of the strat greatly.
With that said I'm pretty sure if the toss pulls 4-5 probes during my early assault that this push will fail and I'm back to square one 
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I would love to see, that Forcefields costs more energy, somethign about 75, and these guardian shield 100 Energy, or give the Point defens drone 75 Energy, but I think better would be incrase the Sentry Energy.
What I'm Playing atm. vs Toss (semi effektive) is stimed rines+ghosts with Energy upgrade.
I tried a 3Rax(1 Reactor/1lab/1free) and pumpin Marines getting stim and even combat shields(later on).
I'm getting a bunsch of Marines+ Stim and 2-3 Ghosts with EMP.
The first Toss push is (every push)easy to hold. Meanwhile he will counter your rines with Colossus.
3Raxes were far to much, it's ok with 2raxes(one with reactor the other lab) get the Factory out there, go for a Starport switch to the reactor and build a techlab on the 2nd rax.
Research concussive shells and get maurades + vikings.
The point is, without an 2nd Base it's so hard to get a possible amount of all this stuff.
I dont kno what to do after the 1st push..
1. Go for an 2nd Base, or
2. Get vikings asap.
3. Get more Raxes, for Mauraders
Its hard to tech without a 2nd Base. But its even harder to face Colossus without vikings.
I would like to put a Replay in here, but I dont kno where to upload it :/
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
i love how they make the grenade a cheap upgrade that takes half a minute to upgrade and everyone starts crying imbalance. Just before this "nerf" terrans were at the top of each division and improving their overall winning percentage by 13% on the EU server while P decreased and Z went up half as much as T.
It's pretty simple: Terran can't rely on the marauder early to do all the meta game damage. Terrans abused the shit out of low econ rushes while being able to divide the resources into a powerful rush AND a FE simultaneously. This was OP and had a minor fix. Rushing is still viable but expanding off that rush is slower/more expensive. Macro'ing is JUST as viable but it requires smart preparation in terms of tech path: You no longer can kinda go marauder and kinda go banshee.. you need to commit.
Overall this "nerf" just displays the poor state of spoiled terran players. They had their cake and ate it too now they are forced to blue collar it like P had to for 8 patches and Z .. well anyways.
Reaper rushes are incredibly powerful. On some maps you can get there before a stalker gets out 100% and usually before a zeal gets out. That kind of harassment is incredible.. in fact P and Z have nothing that compares with that speed/power. Banshees STILL dominate the air. Hiding that tech or switching mid game ROCKS a protoss even one that sees it coming.. still tough to hold.
I could go on but I'd rather not since I know point by point many of you will look at this and argue in general: Not enough.
See the real problem isn't the actual game or the balance of the current build. The problem is terrans have an unreal expectation for this game. They were happy when they could grab 8 scvs and whatever marines they made in that 3 seconds it took to make em all and win. They were happy when marauders came with the strongest ability in the game at tier 1.5. Now you can't do an invincible rush and marauders are stuck dealing more damage with a better range and more health than anything else at that level BUT they have to upgrade the second cheapest upgrade in the game (2nd only to overlord speed).
You guys can cry that immortals are OP. But take them out and roaches/marauders will be MORE of a problem (not less). You guys can complain about FF but none of you have had to deal with banelings as a P or a ling rush. This game is damn near perfect and it has taken me over 1k games to grind through it's issues and watch as it gets closer and closer to perfection.. you won't be successful and you won't do well sticking to what you THINK should work. You have to literally FIND what works.. which means work and practice.
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On April 14 2010 09:52 DeMusliM wrote:
Hey!
Right - i'm not one to whine, but i'm at a real dead end right now when it comes to this matchup - i've tried literally everything but it feels as if my army is never as cost effective - and never as fast at rebuilding.
Before the patch - TvP has always been my least favourite Matchup as i felt i was limited to 1 viable strategy - that being the marauder fe. The patch came and swiftly tore that apart, and after immortals not allowing mech play, it leaves terran with little option but to go BIO that has been nerfed considerably, and doesn't really stand up to a protoss army head on.
Now, my main predicament being - a 4-5 warpgate rush (i find this incredibly hard to hold off, i just encountered a game where i went 3 rax, 2 bunkers and died behind my wall to it), or the more simple 3 warpgate immortal -> push/expo and tech to HT's.
Before the patch - terrans were still weaker late game vs toss - due to the inability to go heavy units such as thors/tanks, and thus investing alot of money in bio due to it not being totally destroyed by immortals. But right now, i don't have an advantage at any point in the game and feel constantly behind - is their a strategy that i'm missing out on? Or is every Terran feeling the way i do? :S
Any suggestions are appreciated - anybody also dwelling on the same situation will make me feel less crap for losing roughly 9/11 games vs protoss in the last few days.
I really don't like people posting things like "he is a pro..WOOOHAA". Start think wit your brain and don't stop thinking in front of nobody!
However this is what i think:
Do you really think that Terran had been to nerfed with this patch?
Here is the text
TERRAN
Thor
Build time decreased from 75 seconds to 60 seconds.
Siege Tank
Build time decreased from 50 seconds to 45 seconds.
Marauder
Concussive Shells now require an upgrade.
Barracks Tech Lab
Concussive Shells upgrade added.
Concussive Shells upgrade costs 100/100 and takes 80 seconds to complete.
They powered terran mech and simply put concussive shells as an upgrade. It isn't a nerf at all it simply prevent really early marauder rushes.
With the last patch terran has been powered not nerfed.
I am a random player and i find out that TvP has lot of potential strategy:
Thor Fast exp
Rine+tanks
Marauder push
Marauder fast exp
Reaper harassment.
However it is true that marauder are one of the most common and viable strategy nowadays.
Without any replays from you is really impossible to discuss something.. We have to know:
-situation
-Army composition
-Placemente
-et cetera
And you really couldn't open a thread called "terran vs Protoss". What would happen if everybody opens a thread similar? On the forum we would have 276 Terran vs Protoss 454 Zerg vs Zerg 2342 Protoss vs Zerg and so on!
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hi tl users :D
*cheer* first post *cheer*
i had the same problem in tvp
so i tried out some things
and i found that pumping rines and ghost is quite viable
in this replay
[url blocked]
i know im just medium plat lvl :/
and my macro is just terrible but i think the strat itself can work
i start with normal econ build and get tec lab on 2nd rax
then basically try to pump rines go for stim pack and combat shield and pump out ghosts out of tecrax and if theres 150 mins left i start a new rax
basically in the replay he pushed with i think 3 immortal so its not that ultra fast push
and map distance was quite long but i managed to push him back and set up an expansion
also if i would macroed better i would have 6 rax with 1 tec lab and the natural
leaves quite a lot of options in this game i put tec labs on the raxes and started pumping marauders with some ghosts and got vikings for colossi
you could also stop building raxes and start teching after u got like 4 raxes up, depends on match i think
so go terrans
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everything they buffed for terran = no good against toss.
50 dmg per shot by immortals against tanks/thors = gg.
Also these guys take down structures WAY to fast. i had like 3 immortals and a couple stalkers take down my planetary fortress even with 1/2 a dozen scvs repairing... admittedly i was raging at being blocked from ramp so i let it auto atk probably focused on immortals -_-
Bunkers are also pretty useless vs immortals.
IMO
Nerf Immortals dmg from 20+30 to 20+20 (maybe +25?)
Nerf maruder HP so they can still get 3 hit KO'd by immortals
sentry force field also needs a change.. and not a duration nerf it needs some HP or some way to knock down.
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I don't have a problem so much with the concussive shell. I feel that there would be a benefit to giving Immortals a little less health, but put more of that health into the shields. This would make them still a hard counter to things like tanks, but lessen their affect against infantry. P would still be able to deal with tanks quite easily. Send in immortals take the first round of siege fire and blink in stalkers like always.
It's pretty sad when I've 2 rax proxy'd with a first at my base (to give the appearance of standard play) and will still lose when a immortal comes out and he uses his probes.
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EPT
