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On April 18 2010 05:02 MorroW wrote:
viking is 2*(10+4vsarmored) and phonix is 2*(5+4vslight)
both of them r light
so viking do 20 dmg and phonix 18
phonix 180 life and viking 125, both 0 armor
the phonix attacks about 50% faster. sorry but the phonix owns the viking hard. its alot faster so once u catch the banshee and viking he cant escape
the tooltip even says Strong Against viking :d
dont talk unless ur sure of what ur talking about
erm. no. practically all of that is wrong.
viking is 10 + 4 v. armored and hits twice.
phoenix is 5+5 v. light and also hits twice
both of them are not light. viking is armored, while phoenix is light. neither gets their bonus against each other.
so viking does 20 damage and phoenix does 10. phoenix does attack about 50% faster and is faster in terms of movespeed, but viking has superior range and damage. Phoenix takes 13 hits to kill a viking while a viking takes 9 hits to kill a phoenix. So in a straight up 1v1 Phoenix v. Viking fight the phoenix will win, but it won't "own the viking hard." In addition, Phoenix are more expensive, build slower and Vikings can be reactor pumped.
don't talk unless ur sure of what ur talking about
@mrlie3: So you're saying Toss can have a nice unit combination of air units and ground units but Terran can only go pure air? nice logic there. Throw in some marauders in the mix (and there will always be marauders) and Terran will "win both battles."
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On April 18 2010 05:02 MorroW wrote:
dont talk unless ur sure of what ur talking about
Probably wanna take your own advice there, the viking is definitly armored.
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Oh god, this should be a serious discussion and people here are posting wrong armor types, etc.. This thread is so derailed, gonna stop read right here probably.
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On April 18 2010 05:45 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2010 05:02 MorroW wrote:
dont talk unless ur sure of what ur talking about Probably wanna take your own advice there, the viking is definitly armored.
oh ye man u guys r right. im definitely gonna double check up on things next time, i feel like such an idiot now :/ im such a hypocrite, sorry about that. removed my post there ^^
i havent actually played mass air vs toss in a few weeks but back when i used to do it tosses seemed to respond with phonix anyway
stalker along with sentry is pretty good vs banshee once u get this guardian shield going cause it removes 4 dmg from the banshee. but i dunno, stalker doesnt actually do extra dmg vs banshee so i wouldnt really call them a counter at all. its quite a hard question to say how u counter mass air.
storm miss, sentry die fast and can be kited by banshee range, phonix (just in) do soso vs viking and stalker r bad vs banshee if u compare their costs. i guess their only weak point is that its gas intense but vikings got changed in recent patch to cost more mineral and less gas and also vs mass air terran toss must build AA, which all of them costs gas. except cannon if u wanna count that xd
all and all i just feel like banshees r stronger than they should be. i mean air units should be weaker in battle because they have so good mobility but units like banshee can just straight up battle the toss army
i guess the weak moment of a terran who mass air is when hes actually teching up to it, ill bet timing attacks could stop it before he actually has enough of them, banshee take 60 sec to build which is quite alot
so i think the reason why were not seeing mass air in tvp is beacuse u cant really 1base air, thats cheese afaik. and u cant really go expansion then bunker up and get air, cause ull get run over by some 1base toss.
what u probably could do is if ur going fe and toss is going fe, THEN go mass air, that should probably be good. ill see if i can try play this some but im afraid i must add raxes before im able to scout if toss is going expo or not (its quite hard for t to scout when going expo thats why its hard to adapt in this way)
On April 18 2010 05:55 Everlong wrote:
Oh god, this should be a serious discussion and people here are posting wrong armor types, etc.. This thread is so derailed, gonna stop read right here probably.
no please dont stop read just cause of 1 screwup post lol
1 time is no time right? xd
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On April 18 2010 06:04 MorroW wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2010 05:45 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:On April 18 2010 05:02 MorroW wrote:
dont talk unless ur sure of what ur talking about Probably wanna take your own advice there, the viking is definitly armored. oh ye man u guys r right. im definitely gonna double check up on things next time, i feel like such an idiot now :/ im such a hypocrite, sorry about that. removed my post there ^^ i havent actually played mass air vs toss in a few weeks but back when i used to do it tosses seemed to respond with phonix anyway stalker along with sentry is pretty good vs banshee once u get this guardian shield going cause it removes 4 dmg from the banshee. but i dunno, stalker doesnt actually do extra dmg vs banshee so i wouldnt really call them a counter at all. its quite a hard question to say how u counter mass air. storm miss, sentry die fast and can be kited by banshee range, phonix (just in) do soso vs viking and stalker r bad vs banshee if u compare their costs. i guess their only weak point is that its gas intense but vikings got changed in recent patch to cost more mineral and less gas and also vs mass air terran toss must build AA, which all of them costs gas. except cannon if u wanna count that xd all and all i just feel like banshees r stronger than they should be. i mean air units should be weaker in battle because they have so good mobility but units like banshee can just straight up battle the toss army i guess the weak moment of a terran who mass air is when hes actually teching up to it, ill bet timing attacks could stop it before he actually has enough of them, banshee take 60 sec to build which is quite alot so i think the reason why were not seeing mass air in tvp is beacuse u cant really 1base air, thats cheese afaik. and u cant really go expansion then bunker up and get air, cause ull get run over by some 1base toss. what u probably could do is if ur going fe and toss is going fe, THEN go mass air, that should probably be good. ill see if i can try play this some but im afraid i must add raxes before im able to scout if toss is going expo or not (its quite hard for t to scout when going expo thats why its hard to adapt in this way) Show nested quote +On April 18 2010 05:55 Everlong wrote:
Oh god, this should be a serious discussion and people here are posting wrong armor types, etc.. This thread is so derailed, gonna stop read right here probably. no please dont stop read just cause of 1 screwup post lol 1 time is no time right? xd
The phoenix response to 2 port T play is so strong because it lets you kill off T's first two banshees, which gives you an easy expo. T can bunker expo as well given that you won't have immortals or collosi to punish a rine heavy force, but he won't be able to harrass properly for a while which definetely puts you ahead.
Timing attacks can work, but they're very map and micro dependent on both sides, so I'm not 100% certain that certain pushes work or don't.
Phoenixes aren't good vs viking heavy T-air, though.
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Early pressure by protoss will force you to use your first banshee to defend. If toss goes robo you'll have to kill off the immortals, which will buy time for toss. Most toss will already have an obs out, but worst case they are starting one. 4 warpgate can pump out so many stalkers that I don't see how you can hold their attack. Even if you could, you'd never be able to get enough banshees to kill stalkers.
Protoss allins right now are too strong. Defending vs one often puts you at risk for the other, so if you misscout you'll lose. Additionally if you turtle too hard they can outeco you anyways.
It's a byproduct of chronoboost. Protoss gets their economy running much faster, and gets more units out faster, giving them a timing window where they're much stronger than terran. Protoss units additionally are strong out of the box, especially sentries. Guardian shield makes marines absolutely worthless.
They need to tone down some stuff for protoss to give terran a chance of breaking early pressure. You'll notice that when protoss doesn't go ultra aggressive allin terran doesn't look so weak. It's just these super aggressive allins that are the issue.
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On April 18 2010 06:52 Floophead_III wrote:
Early pressure by protoss will force you to use your first banshee to defend. If toss goes robo you'll have to kill off the immortals, which will buy time for toss. Most toss will already have an obs out, but worst case they are starting one. 4 warpgate can pump out so many stalkers that I don't see how you can hold their attack. Even if you could, you'd never be able to get enough banshees to kill stalkers.
Protoss allins right now are too strong. Defending vs one often puts you at risk for the other, so if you misscout you'll lose. Additionally if you turtle too hard they can outeco you anyways.
It's a byproduct of chronoboost. Protoss gets their economy running much faster, and gets more units out faster, giving them a timing window where they're much stronger than terran. Protoss units additionally are strong out of the box, especially sentries. Guardian shield makes marines absolutely worthless.
They need to tone down some stuff for protoss to give terran a chance of breaking early pressure. You'll notice that when protoss doesn't go ultra aggressive allin terran doesn't look so weak. It's just these super aggressive allins that are the issue.
Agreed. If the game is allowed to get to mid-late game then Terran has plenty of options to crush Protoss and the game gets pretty even and balanced. The early game definitely needs to be fixed.
I personally think that the fix should come in the form of buffing Terran (at least for the most part) rather than nerfing Protoss because many of the things that make Protoss so strong against Terran is absolutely needed for Protoss to survive against Zerg.
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On April 18 2010 06:52 Floophead_III wrote:
They need to tone down some stuff for protoss to give terran a chance of breaking early pressure. You'll notice that when protoss doesn't go ultra aggressive allin terran doesn't look so weak. It's just these super aggressive allins that are the issue.
Didn't really see much of that today(all-in), though some terran were taken down by toss in the Liquid vs EG series, I think a lot of it had to do with T being very passive in the transition from their expo to actually creating pressure and establishing another expo.
It looks like once these players get more comfortable making the transition and responding to P, there won't be as much of a threat from anything but the all-in pushes (which these opens are designed to beat..). We've seen a pretty even give and take from TvP over the last week since this thread was started in terms of tourney games. I don't think we can write it all off just yet. There have been strong and sloppy matches on both sides of the table. But, it will be interesting to see what blizzard has rolled into the next patch.
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Here's my thinking:
In BW there was only one way to get useful fighting units onto the battlefield early, and that was with more gateways. There was the possibility of DTs or reaver or shuttle bulldog style play, but you could defend vs all of them with the same basic set of units. Marines/tanks/turrets/vulture+ mines. Some combo of those allowed you to defend vs any type of protoss opening.
In SC2 you have the 4 warpgate push, immortal 3 warpgate push, immortal drop, and even other things that people don't use often like coli drop and dt. Right now terran does not have an answer to all these different builds with 1 build. Even if protoss can't kill you, if you went the wrong build you'll be stuck waiting for the right tech to move out, or even contained indefinitely. Protoss doesn't need to expand immediately if he can keep you in your base forever.
On a side note: Huk vs Drewbie should prove how garbage T mass air is. Stalkers + blink + obs isn't even fair.
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quick derail:
how viable would an open choke be, but camped by a bunker with 2+ reapers (5.5 range, 2x 9dmg vs light each), basically "inviting" a zealot/sentry push in? maybe a bunker before the ramp, then transferring the reapers to another bunker within the main with the help of their jetpack - once they have passed the first one?
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going pheonix is good vs terran mass air because they RAPE banshees and also, it forces the T to make mass vikings which are pretty much useless, if the t has to make 10 vikings after his first 4 banshees, well p wont be scared of 4 banshees and can just mass expo
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I havnt actually lost to a terran doing FE build ever since i learned to do proper 4gate pushes
immortal is still useful vs a marine heavy FE terran cause of bunkers (ofc if you try and react with FE yourself prepare to die to mass marauders) but i guess most of the TVP i have seen (where the T doesnt just die in 1base vs 1base) is basically defend the FE and win, or fail and gg
I'm pretty sure colossi rush is too slow (and too crappy vs bunkers) to be any good at breaking a terran who FE's though i will have to try it out a few more times.
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Yeah in TvP it is required now to harass or you will fall behind quickly. Same with zerg in my opinion. I personally like TvP because I 9 supply 11 barracks/gas reaper to damage eco and while I'm mircoing transition my harass to banshee or medivac hellion drop. I constantly harass while making a 2 tanks for protection and building a mmm(stim+ concussive shell) army w/ a transition to bc depending on if toss goes colli. With how it is now it is vital to constantly harass and make sure toss does not have enough minerals and gas when they want to push thus smaller army when they push. Basicly how it is right now terran has to use it harass units to the best of their ability and do as much damage to eco. as possible or lose.
This whole time I one base which is not good, but I wait until after they push or sneak an expo when I expand against toss. I have also made forced myself to make turrets by my supply/2 command/2 ramp so DT don't destroy me.
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I'm only in copper league and a real noob to RTS online gaming.
However, I see a lot of "Protoss imba" threads and little to back this up, other than complaints about immortals or warp-gates from non-Protoss players.
Could someone (or many people) please post pics of their higher level ladder rankings? Eg, Platinum & Gold top 25 or so.
If Protoss are indeed imbalanced, we should see a lot of Protoss people at the top of the ladders.
In my own copper league, as you get higher it's mostly Terrans and Zerg, with a couple of Protoss in the top 8 ranks. I've gone from always winning only against Protoss, to losing to Protoss and killing several Zerg and Terran players in a row now that I've got a lot of practice against them.
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Theres no reason to expo before toss...why so greedy? Have any of you looked at the handy income menu? With terran mules, you're ahead of P in terms of minerals until they get two full bases.
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On April 18 2010 08:38 duckhunt wrote:
going pheonix is good vs terran mass air because they RAPE banshees and also, it forces the T to make mass vikings which are pretty much useless, if the t has to make 10 vikings after his first 4 banshees, well p wont be scared of 4 banshees and can just mass expo
It doesn't force Terran to make mass vikings. Phoenix can't attack ground so they're not really all that useful and simple Marines with stim absolutely rape Phoenix easily. Also, Phoenix are light so Thors get their bonus damage against them as well. I'm not saying people should use Thors as a counter to Phoenix, they could, but I'm just merely pointing out that Toss going Phoenix doesn't mean Terran needs to get Vikings.
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Sweden33723 Posts
stalker along with sentry is pretty good vs banshee once u get this guardian shield going cause it removes 4 dmg from the banshee. but i dunno, stalker doesnt actually do extra dmg vs banshee so i wouldnt really call them a counter at all. its quite a hard question to say how u counter mass air.
storm miss, sentry die fast and can be kited by banshee range, phonix (just in) do soso vs viking and stalker r bad vs banshee if u compare their costs. i guess their only weak point is that its gas intense but vikings got changed in recent patch to cost more mineral and less gas and also vs mass air terran toss must build AA, which all of them costs gas. except cannon if u wanna count that xd
Pretty sure feedback is brutal vs banshees =_=;;;
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On April 19 2010 12:17 FrozenArbiter wrote:Show nested quote +stalker along with sentry is pretty good vs banshee once u get this guardian shield going cause it removes 4 dmg from the banshee. but i dunno, stalker doesnt actually do extra dmg vs banshee so i wouldnt really call them a counter at all. its quite a hard question to say how u counter mass air.
storm miss, sentry die fast and can be kited by banshee range, phonix (just in) do soso vs viking and stalker r bad vs banshee if u compare their costs. i guess their only weak point is that its gas intense but vikings got changed in recent patch to cost more mineral and less gas and also vs mass air terran toss must build AA, which all of them costs gas. except cannon if u wanna count that xd Pretty sure feedback is brutal vs banshees =_=;;;
Also pretty sure you shouldn't even need HT vs banshees because it's basically impossible for T to expo without catching you massively off guard with them. They provide a very small timing window of map control but once P regains control he'll just go and rape your expos at will because you don't have a real army. =/
But yes, feedback rapes banshees.
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I'm curious to hear opinions on the Jinro vs Inka games (Team EG vs TL).
Game 1: http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/6255169
Game 2: http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/6255848
Jinro went a 1Rax FE, then added 2 Rax to transition into 2 Fac both games. Basically going mass marines and tanks with ghosts.
He ended up losing both games due to not being able to secure a third expo.
What do you guys think Jinro did wrong? His positioning was pretty good, but both times he was overrun by the Protoss ball.
Would getting Hellions instead of Marines as a mineral dump be better? and then harassing more with those Hellions (runbys, drops, etc)? Were his EMPs not effective (he missed a few) and maybe better control of his ghosts would have won him the game?
Or was Jinro simply outplayed by Inka?
It seems like there is so much more to do as a Terran if he goes mech.
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EPT
