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Eh, I think TvP and PvT is about even right now i mean.. I get stomped by terran as toss, but i think thats due to me just being an inferior player compared to getting alot of plat player MU when i just moved up to gold. For some reason blizz thinks that since i got promoted every damn game needs to favor the opponent.
One thing I have noticed. In a PvT match its very tempting to just hit a and click to auto attack, however i think it is probably much more efficient to group up your zealots in one group. then stalkers and immortals in another, then just stalkers and sentries in another grouping (for AA) and then everything to one as well. I know thats alot of binds, but honestly you can just send in zealots to act as your meat wall, then use your ranged (immortals/sentries/stalkers) to single target marauders down. They basically go boom in one volley or less, meaning that you basically just go click, dead, click, dead, click dead, and in the end, unless he has focusf fired you in the same manner, you will in.. but in the end it comes down to who has more invested into their army and who has better micro.
Also, I would be fine with them nerfing the +dmg to armored portion of Immortal damage if they got a decent overall dmg buff. Say 25 + 20 instead of 20+ 30? As far as build time goes though.. it really is very inefficient for a protoss to go dual robo bays. It's just too much invested and immortals are too expensive to make use of it.
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This thread is the exact reason why TvP is broken atm. This push is so good that even if they don't use it terrans have to assume they will and thus making all their OTHER strategies alot stronger too. That is the definition of an overpowered build.
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it beats the sentry warpgate stuff if you micro your bunkers correctly - i.e focus the sentrys rather than letting them stand still, while trying to repair. As for the collosus rush - i think once you are sure your pretty safe (you have 2-3 bunkers full) you should make all 4 refinerys and start teching ASAP.
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I actually wonder if you can do a quick 1 rax FE into 2 rax then plop down ghost acad + factories asap and transition into tanks/ghosts. Tanks demolish sentries and coli and fare well vs everything else. My only concern is that that's too few rax after FE and it leaves a timing window open where you can get demolished.
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If it (either the 4 rax FE or Morrow's modified FE) beats the immortal & warpgate rush when executed properly, doesn't that mean the threat of it happening will change the Protoss meta-game in PvT? A colossus rush has a number of vulnerabilities and there is a key scouting window which, if exploited, can make this match-up lopsided for Terran, thus forcing the Protoss to FE himself.
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On April 17 2010 09:36 DeMusliM wrote:
it beats the sentry warpgate stuff if you micro your bunkers correctly - i.e focus the sentrys rather than letting them stand still, while trying to repair. As for the collosus rush - i think once you are sure your pretty safe (you have 2-3 bunkers full) you should make all 4 refinerys and start teching ASAP.
i was having alot of troubles with that with my first 1rax fe back around patch 5. the colosus could walk up on cliffs dodge the bunkers go for the scvs. micro as hell and cliff abusive on most maps. was just overall a really dirty scenario. colosus did much more dmg then tho. i really doubt u can survive a colosus rush tho. u need stimpack to engage it and that should come at least 2 minutes after the colosus reach u if ur going 4rax before gas
its better econ to get earlier gas and mine for longer time before teching rather than making 4 gasses asap. i used to do 1rax then +2rax then +2 gas. going 1rax +3rax +4gas is not smart at all. so i laff at the 4rax fe tbh :p
ur probably right that 4rax fe can stop mass sentry zealot but its a tough call on some maps, and maps like blistering its not viable at all cause u can crush the backdoor. but on stuff like LT i can really imagine the 4rax fe surviving immortal push or mass zea sentry quite well
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IMO the observer is the most broken thing right now. It gives the protoss 100% knowledge about what is going on, while the terran knows almost nothing. This makes it hard for terran to be inventive with strategies based on surprise (drops, banshee etc), while the protoss is doing whatever he likes. This pretty much means that terran needs to have a "base army" that's so incredibly strong that even knowing what's comming it should be hard to beat. Not a scenario that speaks to me. If the observer was given to terran instead of protoss (I'm not suggesting this), I'm pretty sure the matchup would be imbalanced the other way around.
With scans you can "sometimes" learn what general build is going on, but at huge economic cost. It's actually better to spam barracks and suicide them into the toss base. Why most protosses are stupid and build all their tech in a blob next to the main nexus beats me, with a little bit of effort you can hide key buildings (Templar archives, Robotics support bay) and the terran is completely blind.
Make observers require further tech (Observatory like someone suggested) or remove them from the game. Maybe the observatory could have a scan feature, like Orbital Command? I know blizzard like to keep the other races distinctly different, so probably not. Just make them a more serious investment.
I agree with many that Immortals are a problem, but I think that's mainly because they are boring and not so much a balance issue. Sure, they could lose some damage, but my main problem with them is that they block out so much of the terran tech tree. Tanks and Thors are pretty much useless (except very late game) against protoss in the current state, which forces the terran to make a bio army. I'd rather have a balanced and "open" game than a balanced and "forced" game in terms of strategy.
Another thing; I would like to see AOE tuned down in general. Fights are so dependent on Storm, Colossus, EMP and Infestors now. TvP is often a game of "Can I EMP you before you blanket storm my army?". Boring and too fast. Very rarely do I see fights that are exciting like a 200 vs 180 PvT battle or a large TvZ battle in Brood War. In Sc2 it's all over in 2 seconds, and it's not the guns that kill (Not generally true but happens alot).
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On April 17 2010 09:36 DeMusliM wrote:
it beats the sentry warpgate stuff if you micro your bunkers correctly - i.e focus the sentrys rather than letting them stand still, while trying to repair. As for the collosus rush - i think once you are sure your pretty safe (you have 2-3 bunkers full) you should make all 4 refinerys and start teching ASAP.
how can u repair bunkers with ff blocking acces to them ;/
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i just watched Thisreplay, and it really made me think that something about the forcefield needs to be changed. Its just so very imba, i mean the replay isnt great, both players arent the best but it shows the abuse very well. I think changin forcefield in some way, maybe making it more like fungal growth e.g. would help balance protoss alot. Marauders got their slow to be upgraded first, roaches lost one armor, id say its time to make forcefield an upgradeable spell aswell (or guardian shield, one spell should be free, and i think forcefield is by far the better spell and it should cost some extra ressources)
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On April 17 2010 09:32 Opti wrote:
Eh, I think TvP and PvT is about even right now i mean.. I get stomped by terran as toss, but i think thats due to me just being an inferior player compared to getting alot of plat player MU when i just moved up to gold. For some reason blizz thinks that since i got promoted every damn game needs to favor the opponent.
One thing I have noticed. In a PvT match its very tempting to just hit a and click to auto attack, however i think it is probably much more efficient to group up your zealots in one group. then stalkers and immortals in another, then just stalkers and sentries in another grouping (for AA) and then everything to one as well. I know thats alot of binds, but honestly you can just send in zealots to act as your meat wall, then use your ranged (immortals/sentries/stalkers) to single target marauders down. They basically go boom in one volley or less, meaning that you basically just go click, dead, click, dead, click dead, and in the end, unless he has focusf fired you in the same manner, you will in.. but in the end it comes down to who has more invested into their army and who has better micro.
Also, I would be fine with them nerfing the +dmg to armored portion of Immortal damage if they got a decent overall dmg buff. Say 25 + 20 instead of 20+ 30? As far as build time goes though.. it really is very inefficient for a protoss to go dual robo bays. It's just too much invested and immortals are too expensive to make use of it.
Vs mech T you always drop at least 2 robo bays. I remember Idra telling me very early on in the beta when he was still toss that he'd go 2-3 robo bays vs mech. You could even drop 2 robo bays for truly mass coli in PvZ or PvT if you wanted.
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On April 17 2010 10:11 Viruuus wrote:i just watched Thisreplay, and it really made me think that something about the forcefield needs to be changed. Its just so very imba, i mean the replay isnt great, both players arent the best but it shows the abuse very well. I think changin forcefield in some way, maybe making it more like fungal growth e.g. would help balance protoss alot. Marauders got their slow to be upgraded first, roaches lost one armor, id say its time to make forcefield an upgradeable spell aswell (or guardian shield, one spell should be free, and i think forcefield is by far the better spell and it should cost some extra ressources)
That was hillarious.
Imagine what would had happpened if the toss made a a warp prism and started to zone in units directly in the Terrans base while his army was outside, he could just force field the choke and teleport in more units without giving the terran any way to get back in.
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On April 17 2010 09:58 MorroW wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2010 09:36 DeMusliM wrote:
it beats the sentry warpgate stuff if you micro your bunkers correctly - i.e focus the sentrys rather than letting them stand still, while trying to repair. As for the collosus rush - i think once you are sure your pretty safe (you have 2-3 bunkers full) you should make all 4 refinerys and start teching ASAP. i was having alot of troubles with that with my first 1rax fe back around patch 5. the colosus could walk up on cliffs dodge the bunkers go for the scvs. micro as hell and cliff abusive on most maps. was just overall a really dirty scenario. colosus did much more dmg then tho. i really doubt u can survive a colosus rush tho. u need stimpack to engage it and that should come at least 2 minutes after the colosus reach u if ur going 4rax before gas its better econ to get earlier gas and mine for longer time before teching rather than making 4 gasses asap. i used to do 1rax then +2rax then +2 gas. going 1rax +3rax +4gas is not smart at all. so i laff at the 4rax fe tbh :p ur probably right that 4rax fe can stop mass sentry zealot but its a tough call on some maps, and maps like blistering its not viable at all cause u can crush the backdoor. but on stuff like LT i can really imagine the 4rax fe surviving immortal push or mass zea sentry quite well
The reason you find it tough is because your going gas too early and don't have enough mins for the extra bunkers/marines - if he goes for backdoor, and he's deadset on rushing with 4 warpgates or what ever you just go excess on rines - and maps like blistering with a extremely tight choke, you can place a rax in front of your bunkers and almost half block the choke meaning only half the amount of zealots can fit through - if he kills your rax so what, he wasted alot of time - and you have 3 more and teching.
But yes - every strat terran can do right now feels at risk of either putting up too much defense - and then getting teched vs thus losing, or putting up too little and getting rushed. Very much a rock paper scissors jobby right now, or protoss scouting correctly.
But the bonus is - if you do go for the 4gas at the same time when you scan the robotics bay either 50% done, you can comfortably catch up by the time 9 range is done (6 range can be dealt with by bunkers/he can't play that abusively).
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I just want to add my input as a P player in here. I've played only a few games vs T the past days, but I've won all of them - mostly due to T players trying new stuff, but I guess I also upped my own game.
However, to the point: I've encountered 4 rax FE 3 times, and I've won all 3 games (I might've been just a better player than my opponent, but I doubt that. It really was too easy). T threw up 3-5 bunkers in each game so I didn't even try to break it, just expoed myself and rushed to colossi / range with all my gas as I knew I won't be attacked for a while (and even if I was, guardian shield + zeals > lol 4 dmg marines). I even expanded a bit earlier than usual in the 3rd game and I ran the T player over with superior economy just in a matter of minutes.
Doesn't matter if he tried marine / ghost or marine / marauder / medivac, results did not vary. Imo you cut yourself way too much on gas, so you won't have enough marauders for the moment you should have to push, and you can totally forget Vikings. And if T just keeps turtling I can get storm too by the time you push out...
So, summary: 4 rax FE works well in stopping gateway pushes or Immortal supported pushes on most maps (I really was at discomfort thinking about engaging those bunkers). But as MorroW pointed it out (in his theory which I tested in practice even before reading his post ), it's extremely vulnerable to Colossi. All those early marines will just turn into mincemeat in the first big fight. I feel that T has no viable transition after despite the 'easy' survival and secured first expo.
In the light of DeMusliM's above post, I guess my sample size / opponent pool isn't big / decent enough
Wanna play some customs to test this out, dude?
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On April 17 2010 02:08 Darkn3ss wrote:
I wish someone (with a lot of credibility) made a thread (ONLY for people with a lot of credibility) where they can discuss balance issues and actually agree on issues that MUST be addressed and propose changes that MUST be made...
Elitist much?
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On April 17 2010 10:11 Viruuus wrote:i just watched Thisreplay, and it really made me think that something about the forcefield needs to be changed. Its just so very imba, i mean the replay isnt great, both players arent the best but it shows the abuse very well. I think changin forcefield in some way, maybe making it more like fungal growth e.g. would help balance protoss alot. Marauders got their slow to be upgraded first, roaches lost one armor, id say its time to make forcefield an upgradeable spell aswell (or guardian shield, one spell should be free, and i think forcefield is by far the better spell and it should cost some extra ressources)
I saw that replay too, it's completely recockulous.
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On April 17 2010 10:26 Floophead_III wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2010 09:32 Opti wrote:
Eh, I think TvP and PvT is about even right now i mean.. I get stomped by terran as toss, but i think thats due to me just being an inferior player compared to getting alot of plat player MU when i just moved up to gold. For some reason blizz thinks that since i got promoted every damn game needs to favor the opponent.
One thing I have noticed. In a PvT match its very tempting to just hit a and click to auto attack, however i think it is probably much more efficient to group up your zealots in one group. then stalkers and immortals in another, then just stalkers and sentries in another grouping (for AA) and then everything to one as well. I know thats alot of binds, but honestly you can just send in zealots to act as your meat wall, then use your ranged (immortals/sentries/stalkers) to single target marauders down. They basically go boom in one volley or less, meaning that you basically just go click, dead, click, dead, click dead, and in the end, unless he has focusf fired you in the same manner, you will in.. but in the end it comes down to who has more invested into their army and who has better micro.
Also, I would be fine with them nerfing the +dmg to armored portion of Immortal damage if they got a decent overall dmg buff. Say 25 + 20 instead of 20+ 30? As far as build time goes though.. it really is very inefficient for a protoss to go dual robo bays. It's just too much invested and immortals are too expensive to make use of it. Vs mech T you always drop at least 2 robo bays. I remember Idra telling me very early on in the beta when he was still toss that he'd go 2-3 robo bays vs mech. You could even drop 2 robo bays for truly mass coli in PvZ or PvT if you wanted.
I don't usually tech up to Colossus just due to the fact that it's quite an investment and their build time is so huge. However when i DO pull it off I find that it's almost a sure win unless they have gone mass air and I didnt scout like a retard. If i try to do this and get scouted doing it, the Terran player can easily do a timing push of MM Medivacs while i am trying to tech up and I will most likely lose. The real advantage here that i could see would be the 3-4 colossus to take out his largly bio army, combined with immortals to take care of any heavy mech units. The only problem with this is that it is so expensive that it leaves little room for AA, and if the Terran had scouted it, he could easily go mass banshee and overwhelm me with air.
And.. Mech T? uh.. yeah.. doesn't exist? I mean I've lost to mass thors once i think, but i was a noob and he harassed the hell out of me so my economy was crap - he could have gone anything and won.
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Mech T exists. I use it every game. I have been since the start =D
It's much more difficult and requires intimate knowledge of BW terran play which I think 99% of sc2 players know nothing about. That's why nobody does it except nostalgic players like myself who enjoy the awesome power of mass tanks!
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Demuslim, have you tried harassing the protoss with 3 Reapers? I'm only a "lowly" Bronze/Silver player but I have had great success against Protoss building 9 supply then a barracks as soon as the supply finishes (or a second or so afterwards as I am usually around 120 minerals when the supply actually finishes) While the rax is building I grab a reactor at 13/14 and usually am at just enough minerals/gas to get a techlab and OC as soon as the rax finishes.
I don't have the rest of the build exactly concrete but basically I throw another rax-tech down while the OC is building and immediately begin building a reaper when the first techlab is finished. As soon as I can afford it I begin the reaper speed upgrade, and all that's left is getting the last two reapers out of the two rax you have built. Generally I get my second reactor as well so I can tech to banshees or M&M (You can typically afford Conc Shells soon after the speed finishes - which will happen while the reapers are mid-transit to their base).
This puts three reapers in their base around the 6:00-6:30 mark in game time iirc. I don't know how well this syncs up against the immortal push but those reapers can outspeed anything he has and I can generally take out a few probes quite easily while my starport begins building.
I can upload a few replays of this if you would like but I'm not sure if I have any against a player who Immortal Pushes me.
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On April 17 2010 13:03 Floophead_III wrote:
Mech T exists. I use it every game. I have been since the start =D
It's much more difficult and requires intimate knowledge of BW terran play which I think 99% of sc2 players know nothing about. That's why nobody does it except nostalgic players like myself who enjoy the awesome power of mass tanks!
and then he blinks into your tanks while 5 immortals with 50+ shields left start shooting at your tanks/thors.
straight mech is immobile,requires AMAZING positioning, has zero mapcontrol and can be countered very easily just by building the right units and aclicking.
but if you have success with it then please share some reps. i saw FA getting DOMINATED in so many reps even when his mech-> expo style worked cause the p has mapcontrol,masses up and then wins the fight in such a rapage style (p loses 30 supply, t loses 70++) with a simple aclick that its not even funny ~~
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Multiple Reapers are a horrible idea. One Stalker is enough to completely negate that investment. Reapers are best used in the super-early game.
Oh and as for that repeating Force Field on the ramp thing...wouldn't Reapers be awesome there? Reapers can do a serious number on Sentries, real fast. It was such a rare case, though. He was out of energy on the last couple of Sentries to survive the first fight and the newly created one arrived at JUST the right time to put up another Force Field and keep the chain going.
Its not as easy to setup as you might think. I'm always on the lookout for situations like that to really F someone over with Force Field, and honestly, I've only found those situations in 2v2 where you smash through one guy's defense and continuously lock the other guy out while you smash their base in. Its a lot harder to push someone all the way back up their ramp in 1v1. God knows if he's already teching Siege Tanks to literally smash that army to smithereens in an instant. Talk about prime real estate for Siege Tank destruction. The guy in that replay didn't really do a damn thing to counter it. Just sat there fuming at the situation and built another Barracks.
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EPT
