[M][N] I'm a cop you idiot mafia --- the reboot - Page 26
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ExO_
United States2315 Posts
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Chairman Ray
United States11903 Posts
I hope that you can forgive me for having shitty reads on you earlier. If you can consider cakepie's case and my case in a fair manner, I would super appreciate it. I know 100% for sure that you are town and cakepie is town, because if either of you is mafia, then you would have hammered and won the game already. But for us to win the game, we all need to vote together on mafia. So please give this a fair read. Even if you decide later on that you want to vote me, I totally understand and don't fault you for it. I played like shit this game and deserve to lose. At least give me this one chance to explain the game from my point of view. Firstly, I will try to explain cakepie's generation gap in a way everyone can understand it. I know that maybe cakepie sounded a bit elitist of condenscending in a way, but I can assure you that he's not trying to act like he's better or smarter or anything like that. What it really means is that people who have played together a long time have developed a certain metagame. When a group of people play mafia for the very first time, they have no idea what to do or what to say. How do you know who's lying or who's letting to truth. From there we try different things and see what works and what doesn't. Each game that town loses, we look at what plays were valid and what wasn't, and we look at what reads were valid and what wasn't. Each game that mafia loses, they look at why town was able to read them and see how they can blend in better next time. It's a process of learning from out own mistakes and other people's mistakes over time. So after the same group of people play a large number of mafia games, they develop over time an encyclopedia of town's meta and an excyclopedia or mafia's meta. So every player that played together a while ago all learned together and plays this similar way. A newer player, no matter how good, or an experienced player that played in a different group might not have the same meta. I believe this is what cakepie meant by generation gap. People who played together a lot a long time ago have a certain way of playing that's different from people who recently started playing. And as you can see this game, the way we played still has a lot to improve on. So when cakepie reads you as town, you played in a way that's already resembling the way town should see the game and play overall. He saw it, I didn't, my bad. If you look at cakepie's play, he's clearly trying to direct town to a clear goal of finding out who's town and who's mafia. ExO and TW are mafia, because even though they played very well, their play does not resemble a a town's play at all, and they do a pretty good job of mafia's play. Their goal was clearly to cause a lot of distraction to get town on the wrong track, try to blend in, and get town lynched. I know these concepts may be a little confusing, so I'll give a few examples. This example I mentioned already. TW as "cop" gets a greencheck on hopeless on day 1, then proceeds to post scumreads on hopeless. He's very active, but doesn't do a lot to put pressure on people, and doesn't read people very deeply. If you are town, that's your objective, even as cop. As mafia, you want to muddy up the playing field and try to blend in and look towny without actually helping town. He played that very well by posting a lot, but nothing he posted revealed any new information or led to anything that helped town. He did a good job as mafia, crappy job as town. However, posting your best analysis on why hopeless is mafia is the key mistake. A cop has literally NO reason to scumread their green check. Not even to try to blend in and avoid getting shot. No town does this, no matter if you're new or experienced. However as mafia, your mindset is to hide, try to blend in, and cause some chaos. Posting a scumread on hopeless is consistent with the mentality of someone trying to hide. It's completely the opposite mentality of someone who's trying to get town a step closer to establishing the correct narrative that explains the game. It was a mistake coming from mafia. Another example is the pregame banter between ExO and TW. Cakepie posted it in his big case: #50, #51, #53, #61 - Hide Spoiler - On December 06 2016 15:34 ExO_ wrote: Hi. claiming Vanilla Town. Going back to PoE On December 06 2016 15:52 Tumblewood wrote: ugh I hope this isn't "hi I'm VT bye" because night doesn't mean we can't play. especially when you won't get killed for your reads because N0 On December 06 2016 15:57 ExO_ wrote: And what if it is? On December 07 2016 00:09 Tumblewood wrote: it's not but for the rest of the game I would have been biased towards lynching you This is a distancing maneuver. Tinfoil: ExO isn't going to fakeclaim cop. Chalk one up for craycray's "scum isn't fakeclaiming"? In the mafia encyclopedia, there's a big chapter on distancing. Some mafia like to act in a way that makes it seem like you can't be mafia together. This is an example of that. How do we know that this is mafia distancing, and not actually a town posting a genuine read? They made a mistake in the minor details. Tumblewood said that he might be biased against ExO. Diagnosing yourself with bias, or any sort of lack of skill, is a super mafia thing to say. From a town perspective, they will never ever say it because if they are aware they might be biased against someone, then just dont be biased against them, you are already aware of it. From a mafia perspective, it's a slight hint to town to not take his reads as seriously, or forgive him for flip flopping. No reason to do as town to come into a game, and announce "hey, I might be biased, just letting you know." Tumblewood after the day ends says his play was biased, and will try to post unbiased cases. Ie. "Forgive me for flipflopping". It might have been believable from a town, if they didn't admit they were biased at the very start, or literally post a scumread on their greencheck. So this might seem like a perfectly sound play from the mafia perspective, but makes no sense coming from town. If Tumblewood was talking to a town, he probably would have tried to be unbiased through the game, but he didn't, which means he was just throwing out a random term so we can distance himself from ExO. I'll give you another example, and this one includes you. From a town perspective, if you are confident that someone is mafia, you would also know not to trust what they say. When this post was made, ExO was very confident that I am mafia to the point that he's not even answering all my questions or talking about some of my reads. However, he takes my scumread on you seriously: On December 09 2016 19:44 ExO_ wrote: For starters: Isn't exactly a neutral entrance. You may have asked each of them what they thought, after your very first move in the game is to say you want to lynch both of them. However NU's filter does kinda look bad as I read it. It's really wishy washy all over the place. It makes it difficult for me, because I really don't like the way you've played CR and my immediate reaction to that has been to assume your scum. So let me ask you CR, assume for a second that TW is town, and NU is scum. Who would the 2nd scum be with NU? So let me ask you this. You are town, and someone you are confident is scum presents you a scumread. You don't really care what their read is, or at least it's not the first thing you care about. You should be mainly thinking about why the are saying that to you and why they want you to help lynch that person. But from a mafia perspective, you want to lynch town, any town. It's sometimes difficult to present cases on people you know are town, because everything they do you know comes from a town perspective. However if a town gave you a case against another town, you would be very interested in the mislynch oppurtunity. ExO is seriously considering that you might be mafia, because of a case I presented. He talks nothing about why a mafia ray would encourage him to scumread you. So do you think we are seeing a play from the town encyclopedia, or the mafia encyclopedia? I've had a long day and I'm really tired right now, but I'll try to spend more time answering your questions and posting reads and such. Even if I don't win the game (which I don't deserve to), I feel bad for having cakepie put in all that work on my behalf. | ||
cakepie
985 Posts
TW: + Show Spoiler + posting bad plan Town explanation: trying to figure out the game. Quality of explanation: can only be taken at face value if you trust TW. plan is bad. Scum explanation 1: Trying to sell a bad plan this was my first explanation. I thought TW might be trying to trick town NU into a bad plan. + Show Spoiler [aside read] + NU also posted plans. however, I can townread him because he caught a bad part of TW's plan -- using cop to check doc -- and posted an improvement: sac doc to scum nk. I also #104 ask NU about his plans and it checks out with what I see. Therefore, unlike TW, NU is more probable to be town trying to figure out the game, because he DID improve TW's shitplan. Also, same as NU, I sensed TW trying to buddy NU but not vice versa. Quality of explanation: rather farfetched Scum explanation 2: faking activity. I didn't have this explanation initially. I got it from CR from a different conversation. + Show Spoiler [aside] + Because I only have the explanation of "selling bad plan", I ask CR about his case. I know he relies on both TW+NU scum together. I find it odd to make an association read on a scumteam for the motivation of 2 scum both loudly selling bad plan + slightly less bad plan. #148 (I also offer him alternate viewpoints for his case). CR gives me #144 the explanation of faking activity. And that explanation also works in my case! Quality of explanation: plausible blindly going from mylo to d3 NU, you caught this as well. Which increased my mindmeld with you (in addition to the buddying) and gave me TR on you. Town explanation: honest mistake Quality of explanation: can only be taken at face value if you trust TW. Scum explanation: lazily faking activity, and scumslipped. Quality of explanation: subjective, but both NU and myself (if not others) found it incredibly odd for a townie to so quickly forget about mylo. my case on TW's defense against badplan read #149 I call TW out for swatting at the obvious tinfoil. At this point, I have the "faking activity" explanation thanks to CR. "Mislead" isn't limited to steering town toward or away from any particular plan. "if you've been paying attention, you'll know that there is now another explanation: you're trying to mislead us into (thinking you're contributing when you're not)Your "plan" post is you starting to try to get into NU's good books, which escalates into full blown buddying. Because NU uses plan talk as activity, you do the same, and then later on continue to buddy with him on the basis that both of you are "figuring the game out" and advancing town interests by doing the same thing now we have two suspicious things that make sense when considered together. reinforce scumread.You didn't address how you suddenly go from "D1 mylo" to optimism for D3. Townies are allowed to be wrong, I don't think but townies are allowed to be negligent. So let's suppose your planpost was an honest mistake. When I posit that your plan relies on a weak premise, you don't even check. You snark back at me confidently with incorrect math. If TW was indeed townie trying to figure out the game, he would have checked for mistakes. He didn't. downgrade trust in TW's town explanation for badplan TW "TR's" ExO's fuck up (this is not actually an associative read) feels very candid. it is hard as scum to fake viewpoint -> new evidence -> change viewpoint to reflect that. also it would be a lot of attention to detail to fake a mistake and react realistically. Seems reasonable at first glance. But something looks off to me.- he says 'hard as scum to...' and doesn't actually explicitly TR ExO. - does not hold up to scrutiny: see #205 Scum explanation: Buddy defense, but scumslipped scumslip #1: avoiding TMI too hard scumslip #2: avoiding taking strong positions scumslip #3?: slightly strange reasoning due to fake TR. Quality of explanation: plausible but subjective Town explanation: It's really a TR, and maybe TW just worded it a bit off. Quality of explanation: plausible but subjective + Show Spoiler + associative scum explanation: scum selling the line that "mistakes are okay guys. I made some, he made some. we're both townies making honest mistakes." TW's D1 contribution up until I pressure vote Defends against CR Defends against me Weird "TR" on ExO (null) No original scumhunting whatsoever. scum explanation: scum can't scumhunt / find it hard to fake scumhunting quality: plausible town explanation: too busy defending self quality: take him at his word for it? TW's EoD defense NULL. both scum and town will defend themselves. There's no need to HARDTOWN for defending. (association: ExO!!!) TW's EoD TR on NU NULL at best still not scumhunting: scum. TW's N1 cases 'Town' explanation: If you're thinking, "TW is posting cases and "looking at both sides of the coin" " ... no. Making case posts with pro-town pro-scum can be faked by scum. It is NULL. When I say "looking at both sides of the coin" I refer to evaluating each individual read, each small piece of evidence. Like I'm trying to demo to you right now. 'Town' explanation: "effort". Can be faked. NULL (association: ExO!!!!) Gut feel: looks weird -- overdramatic. faking something. Trying to seem like NU and I. Quality: subjective, but if NU feels the same way, then we can both self-contradiction in case against me -- both high effort town and low effort scum. I can't be both high effort and low effort at the same time. 'Town' explanation: honest mistake quality: not again? this is getting old. scum explanation: tried too hard to fake case, fucked up. quality: quite likely. I could go on, but I think that's quite enough. There are enough circumstantial pieces to put together to make TW strongly scum. Especially parts where NU reinforces my read, and where multiple pieces of evidence fit together to form an increasingly plausible, coherent story. As for mistakes, remember I've mentioned before: don't assume that town makes mistakes because they are carefree, and scum don't make mistakes because they are very cautious against it. When pressed, or forced to take a position, or forced to fake something, scum will make mistakes, for all their trying. It's why the word "scumslip" exists. SCUM by himself SUPER DUPER SCUM when you do the same thing with ExO, find ExO scum, then associate the two together. | ||
Chairman Ray
United States11903 Posts
When I see someone do something, I like to see it from a town perspective and a mafia perspective. Even when someone does something that I don't like or might be a mistake, if I can't put it in a mafia narrative in my head, then they're probly town, or that particular read is null. However if there's something I see that has both a town and mafia perspective, then I call them out on it, and accuse them of the mafia perspective. If they can't give me the town perspective, then that's a scumtell for me. I find it's a better strategy than discussing with everyone whether or not it's scummy, because that might give mafia an opportunity to construct a narrative. So after I accused you and TW at the start, you two didn't rly give me a great answer, so I immediately thought you two were scummy. However, after reconsidering it, I overlooked the very obvious conclusion that threatening to lynch someone that early in the game will often trigger OMGUS regardless if town or mafia. That's a really stupid mistake of me, and I guess it prompted you to hate me all game. So I'm sorry for that. Also sorry to TW, even though you're mafia, but at the time, it was stupid move on my part. | ||
cakepie
985 Posts
On December 11 2016 18:00 cakepie wrote: Gut feel: looks weird -- overdramatic. faking something. Trying to seem like NU and I. Quality: subjective, but if NU feels the same way, then we can both upgrade the plausibility of this read | ||
Chairman Ray
United States11903 Posts
On December 11 2016 00:16 NeverUnlucky wrote: CRay: Who do you think is scum with TW? You said you thought ExO, CP, and H1 were town yesterday, and now you are town-reading me (?). So who's scum and why? All your arguments for you being cop are that TW is not cop. Why are you cop? Why tf would you have checked Koshi aka the guy with the highest % of chances to die N0? I have a hard time reading Koshi, and two people have threatened to lynch Koshi if he doesn't die. I just checked him so we don't have to worry about reading him anymore, and it would be nice to trust all his reads. | ||
Chairman Ray
United States11903 Posts
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Chairman Ray
United States11903 Posts
*brohug* | ||
cakepie
985 Posts
On December 11 2016 18:00 cakepie wrote: TW's EoD TR on NU NULL at best still not scumhunting: scum. ? scum!TW is fake whiteknighting NU here ? TW was the lynch. Why is TW defending NU while being under threat of lynch @ w/2 votes to hammer? TW didn't get hammered. looking at the 4 ppl who are around (3 voters, TW) there are many possibilities for who's town/scum here but I'll let you work that out. town explanation: TW was attacking CR's case as a whole? scum explanation: If scum!TW was playing cakepie case Act 1: nolynch. He knows he's not going to get lynched, because NU is not around. fake whiteknighting. I'll let you evaluate these reads quality on your own, NU. (mainly bcuz no time to explain I want to get back to CR read draft for you) You can evaluate (TW's NU defense while under lynch) and (TW not getting lynched) together as "linked" evidence because they're tied to the lynch. | ||
cakepie
985 Posts
Thanks NU for putting my head on straight and telling me to go back and evaluate CR. | ||
ExO_
United States2315 Posts
NU the game is in your hands. These posts from CP/CR are big, but they are full of garbage. Lines like this from CR: "ExO is seriously considering that you might be mafia, because of a case I presented." should tell you everything you need to know. ofc I was considering you were mafia. I have to consider every possibility, in particular that my reads might be wrong. No where in CR's posts does he explain why if he was the cop does he only have 2 pages in his filter. Why he strictly tunneled you and TW the entire game. Why he didn't breadcrumb at all. Why both he and cakepie tried to start a a train on Day 1, when it's clearly an incredible risk to do so instead of just waiting a day. Compare TWs effort all game long, despite constantly being pressured. His posts all game long. He has at least been trying all game long. CR only shows up now. Is that what a cop would do? Post barely anything and tunnel 2 players all game long? Don't fall for this last ditch effort by CP/CR NU. | ||
cakepie
985 Posts
CR: + Show Spoiler + enters D1 lynching two players for shit reasons, associating NU with TW scum explanation: this guy is just pushing preconceived, preplanned mislynches quality: actually really unlikely unless scum is shit or scum has balls of steel. attracts too much heat. pretty damn dangerous thing to do as scum because town is going to react violently to being lynched for shit reasons. (See: NU's reaction.) town explanation: he is scumhunting, using something he found odd and pushing to find out why. doing it poorly, but scumhunting nonetheless quality: plausible. + Show Spoiler + Complex eval based on CR copclaim (this is might be difficult to follow. skip over it and come back later if you struggle here): CR going after NU+TW is actually also possibly influenced by the fact that he was indeed real cop who checked Koshi and Koshi died. 1. He's pissed at losing the doc AND the fact that he wasted his check. This is affecting his judgement and is a contributing factor to his read being shit. 2. If you recall, part of his argument revolved around "koshi was respect killed, not bluesniped" and he's going after 2 of 3 people who "respected" Koshi on N0. cop!CR checking Koshi might be influenced by the fact that he sees Koshi derping and (conf!pretending) not to know about how roles work in this game. If you're scum or a blue role, you definitely fucking check the setup! So, cop!CR who was fooled by Koshi's pretend-derp also say that "scum wasn't bluesniping" -- consciously or subconsiously assuming that scum would be fooled just as he was. Quality: This makes the + Show Spoiler + Now suspend your gut reaction for a moment, NU. Hear me out, and even if you don't buy my reasoning here, hang on: there are better examples later. new concept: cop explanation: he has a red check on TW and is associating NU to solid scum, without revealing his check yet. NU reaction: WTF? Why would town be bluehunting! This is the second time I've caught you doing that this game! scum!scum!scum! <- don't do this. calm down. explanation: It's not blue hunting. It's an extension of the whole town/scum motivation thing I've been doing all along. "If he's cop, does that somehow explain what's going on here?" When you see things like that, you can flag it for yourself in your mind, and if the player claims later on, you can see if their claim and this flag support one another, and use it to evaluate their claim. In this case, CR claims he checked Koshi N0. Oh well, the cop explanation turned out to be useless. But, imagine a world where CR survives to D2 and claims N0 cop redcheck on TW. You'd be able to say, 1. if he's cop, that might explain what he is doing here 2. what he did here is consistent with his claimed check I saw this at that time. This one is not "in hindsight". player reactions to CR case: {NU, TW, ExO} absent any other info, players attacking, or targets defending against a shit read are null. + Show Spoiler [but with my game solution] + NU hits back at CR because NU is town. (relying on scumreads) TW+ExO hit back as defense. town!Cakepie tries to help CR improve his scumhunting by pointing out flaws and suggesting other viewpoints + Show Spoiler + On December 08 2016 13:10 cakepie wrote: Isn't that a bit circular and self-reinforcing? 1. Active players seem to buddy in quiet N0 -> 2. mafia together? -> 3. oh look mafia buddying in quiet town -> 4. go back to step 2 Furthermore, I think it looks more like only one (TW) is actively buddying. I think NU might already started smelling a rat and was questioning why/how TW formed that absurd TW/NU/Koshi circle: I believe that NU could be genuinely (if naively) broaching the possibility of "If VTs agree never to fakeclaim, all CCs become MvT". TW jumps at the opportunity to gain easy towncred by enumerating possible scenarios according to mechanics, and to engage NU to try to start a buddybuddy going jerking over setup. TW's scumbuddy is somewhere else, and I think they could be tentatively drawing distance at that point in time, with town?NU active, soondead!Koshi and uncertainty over how active the rest of us would behave. If you're going down the road of associative reads I think there's more interesting interactions than just backpatting. @NU I told you CR was scumhunting (with flaws), you asked me if that was a TL and I said yes. Do you now see why/how? Also, at that time, I didn't have super firm reads on either of you, so I let you guys fight (then I can eval those posts for reads -- but as you know I became busy with real scum cases and never quite got to it.) It was not until I came back middle of N1 that I had both of you solid town and then had to try to stop your TvT. (But did so hurriedly due to priority being on putting out scumreads and EoN) There is CR fighting ExO and TW too, but likewise as with the NU case I let the fighting go on "to obtain more information". continues pushing his "shitty" read Town explanation(s): He's trying to get reactions and evaluate them. Just like I did with TW. Maybe he's not doing it quite correctly and there are flaws with his case. But "he is scumhunting in his own way. That's a lot more than what some people have been up to." <-- remember I said this, NU? Scum explanation: really pushing mislynches hard for shitty reasons! I choose town explanation. NU chooses scum explanation, and is unable to see why CR might be doing this as town. (this reflects NUll on NU) CR is absent for long periods town explanation: he's just away for a bit scum explanation: he faked scumhunting he made (poor) cases, and has stopped pushing them (to get reactions/discussion i.e. using town playbook). cakepie evaluation: could be either. The longer he's not here, the more it looks like scum explanation than town explanation. (This is my read evolution on CR, before he returned near EoD1, he was gradually "entering scum territory" Starts arguing with TW Town explanations: He wants to figure out why his case is being attacked He wants to push to gauge reactions to his case He is willing to extend good faith to TW and try to understand what TW is telling him. Scum explanation: Just arguing for arguing's sake. He's pushing TW mislynch. NU saw only the scum explanation. NU needs to try to see the town explanation. This is one of the important things that I wanted NU to see and TR Ray for. Votes TW Town explanation: CR towns me because I'm obvtown (by our play methods.) Both of us strongly scum TW (my case is good, his case is poor, but he also agrees with my case) You can see CR evaluation and analysis of TW's reaction vs cases where he's the target here Therefore, we are both townies with very a solid scumread on TW. Whereas I pressure voted, CR is lynching scum. He's that confident. Scum explanation: CR and cakepie have tunneled TW all day long and are voting to lynch when the safe thing to do is to nolynch. + Show Spoiler + but nolynching for "safety" alone is an easy cop-out. Even NU implies here that he'd be willing to vote if he were confident enough on a read. Again, NU needs to see the other possibility NU case again? tl;dw: scumhunting, presenting read for reaction / discussion / refinement. Engages with ExO #252 onward This one is important to look at NU. He knows there's only so much he can get out of TW and you because you're his targets. But he's willing to talk to ExO as well. - He's not sure of ExO's alignment yet (at that time, my ExO case was standalone only, containing no association) - He's talking to ExO more, to apply the reaction test based on ExO's reaction to his case (as a bystander) + Show Spoiler + but ExO is defending his buddy - He's extending good faith to ExO to try to properly understand ExO's disagreement with his case - He is ready to admit that he is wrong, and concedes that "both [ExO] and TW gave me shit for the way I present my reads, I know that I fucked that up." Town explanations: - gauging reaction to case - trying to understand what's wrong with his case so he can refine it - discussion on good faith rather than "you must be scum for disagreeing with me" - town admits they fucked up. Scum explanation: - manipulate ExO somehow? - scum got caught fucking up. This is another thing that I wanted NU to see and TR Ray for. Fucking up is NAI. It's unfair if you give TR to TW and ExO for ALL their mistakes (honest mistake! seems natural!) and yet tunnel on to the scum explanation for scum?CR fucking up. He should be allowed to fuck up as town as well. Plus all the other town explanations available here. This is not all of it yet, but the important things for towning CR are there. TOWN psychological analysis reason to maybe believe CR's cop claim On December 10 2016 06:21 cakepie wrote: No. Stop. Don't OMGUS Ray. If you've been away due to finals, I don't think you've had a chance to properly catch up since your last post here. Make sure you properly look at Ray's EoD1 and N1. NU... here, I told you not to OMGUS Ray. This wrongly assumed that you can play using the same town playbook that I am using. But you weren't. Which is why you took great issue with my use of the term "OMGUS" here. But, now that I've walked you through my playstyle and strategy -- do you see why I call it omgus? You reach for the scum explanation instinctively when CR targets you. (I don't blame you. doing so is null on you.) But NU, you need to see that there is another possibility. Also, in this quoted post I strongly urge you to evaluate Ray on EoD1 and N1. I've highlighted the strong townreads above for you, you should have seen them. Therefore, my read evolution on CR goes from a townlean early on (for scumhunting poorly) to scumlean (for possibly having fucked off and stopped+faked scumhunting) as D1 wore on. But over the course of EoD1 and N1, strong townreads for ExO came in, removing any doubts I had from him being away. The case for Ray town/cop is not complete yet, but I'm putting a pause here to give NU breathing room to process and digest before moving forward. NU, take your time to think about this carefully. TvT happens. Can you please consider CR TvT on you? I asked CR to stop TvT you before posting TW+ExO bloated filter analysis (I admit it was very poorly done but that's what I managed at the time). Because I strongly TR him and strongly TR you (having had candid discussion (e.g. about H1) and under the impression that we were mindmelding well and using the same playbook.) And I needed him to stop his stupid tunnel on you and consider what I was about to say. It took a while before he came back and read and respond to it. But he understands what I'm saying about - TW buddybuddy NU is a one way thing - NU is actually using planning to try to figure out the game wheras TW isn't And admits that he hadn't considered that possibility This is a successful interaction of town helping town with reads, using the town playbook. NU. I have now shown by example how I'm using the town playbook. I've tried to show you that by using the playbook, I find CR to be town Now you can go (re?)read what CR has posted recently. Like I said, I'm not the best teacher, and I've rubbed you the wrong way last night by coming across as high-and-mighty. But CR explains the whole "encyclopedia of town" and "excyclopedia of mafia" more eloquently. Give CR a fair shake. --- I've showed you that TW is using the mafia playbook. You can go back to things I said about ExO being scum individually. You'll hopefully see that it's the mafia playbook. And then look at TW and ExO being scum together. Once you can accept that possibility with an open mind, start plugging in all the association read stuff. And the whole charade that they've put up, a huge plan that is tailored specifically to deceive you, NU, and drive CR and myself into a corner where they can just keep yelling at us. This scumteam is not to be trifled with. Respect them for the effort that they've put in. I underestimated them and fucked up. But it's okay now. I have them figured out for sure now. I was right all along. --- consider the possibility that everything I'm trying to tell you is true. See how I'm putting together a reasoned argument using the strategy that I claim to be using? And that the reasoned argument shows - TW is using the mafia playbook. - CR is using the town playbook (poorly, and he has very willingly admitted this). Before I posted these, the only response from the scumteam so far has been to throw smoke in your face, tempt you to take the easy way out, discredit me, etc. Which is all WIFOM. Because the other option is that I am correct. You can see that sometimes I stop and snipe back at TW+ExO too -- showing that the other way round is also possible. I had been playing suboptimally early in D2. But when I start posting more and more solid stuff, they throw more and more WIFOM. As I move toward posting these for you, they keep trying to sell you that I'm making a huge deception to mislead you. You need to recognize their WIFOM for what it is. Can you smell the increasing fear in their WIFOM? --- Now that I am putting this up. Expect scum to react. Now they finally have something concrete to attack, They are going to try to rip my posts to pieces. They will try to sell to you only the scum explanations for each of the things I did. You need to learn by example from me. I'm not trying to be arrogant and show that I'm better than you. I was really really shit in NSM8. But with effort, I've made tremendous improvement this game. I see that you have the same gut sense reactions to scumslips as I do. I believe that you can learn how to tell the scumslips from the honest mistakes. Take my hand. We can both improve our townplay this game. I believe in you. We're not the best. But we can be heroes together and claw this game back from the clutches of the scumteam. --- There is more stuff still not posted yet. They involve more "advanced" methods. So this is a break point so that NU can process everything so far, before we move to harder things. --- insert scumteam yelling - the "obvious" choice is correct: scum?CR trying to mislynch VT!NU. - cakepie and ray orchestrated all of this to deceive and mislead NU | ||
cakepie
985 Posts
On December 11 2016 05:58 ExO_ wrote: ftfy.ExO wanted to say this: ExO is VT. orTW is ?cop -- one scum needed to hammer ExO is VT. TW is ?fakecop -- TW's scumbuddy needed to hammer. He forgot: On December 11 2016 05:52 cakepie wrote: Unless, of course, TW and ExO are scum. Duh. | ||
cakepie
985 Posts
TW claims cop. <-- is cop or scum cakepie fakclaims cop then claims VT <-- is VT or scum NU claims VT <-- is VT or scum ExO claims VT <-- is VT or scum VT claims trying hard to solve the game: cakepie, NU <-- VT VT claims trying hard to end the game quickly: ExO <-- scum | ||
cakepie
985 Posts
On December 11 2016 15:46 Tumblewood wrote: NU actually has more experience if you count that other site. See Ray's better explanation for my "generation gap" argument. Other site experience counts for nothing when our problem is TL old meta and TL new meta. I'm not "old guard" like Ray. But I was a TL noob in those days and was trained by coaches who taught me the meta of that time. | ||
cakepie
985 Posts
On December 11 2016 15:46 Tumblewood wrote: Thanks for concern. Meds are helping. But yeah, playing this hard is bad for my physical, mental and emotional well being.and cakepie, please don't kill yourself caring too much about a forum game. @NU ignore. Just NAI banter. | ||
cakepie
985 Posts
Therefore, my read evolution on CR goes from a townlean early on (for scumhunting poorly) to scumlean (for possibly having fucked off and stopped+faked scumhunting) as D1 wore on. But over the course of EoD1 and N1, strong townreads for [s]ExO[s] CR came in, removing any doubts I had from him being away. ebwop. I made a mistake because in my brain was "my townread on CR comes from his interactions with TW and ExO" | ||
cakepie
985 Posts
That's good faith. + Show Spoiler + Of course, that was my logical faculties no longer working correctly under fatigue. But still the point stands. TW was "willing" to engage That's not good faith. Ray was willing to engage TW and ExO in EoD1 and N1 and admit he was wrong in some ways and try to understand things from their perspective. That's good faith. ExO is unwilling to accept any other explanations except the one he already decided upon. + Show Spoiler + On December 09 2016 19:52 Chairman Ray wrote: I feel that it's very difficult to get through to you because you are interpreting everything I say in the worst possible way when I didn't mean it that way. On December 10 2016 18:44 Chairman Ray wrote: cakepie, I read over your case. There's a lot I like, and some I don't like. ... A couple things I would add to the ExO case from my own personal reads. During the entire game, nearly every single post ExO made on me was really unfair and misconstrued me into a mafia mold, and was somewhat OMGUS. At the time I read this as town who honestly didn't know who was mafia. This would make sense if ExO came into this game, saw some red flags in me, and then held a strong bias that I must be mafia. Because a legit mafia would know that I'm town, and will only have a logical bias against me to try to get me lynched, but the OMGUS doesn't make any sense if I never gone on him for anything. So I thought he was just being a biased town; however, if I came into the game guns blazing against his mafia buddy, that would explain the OMGUS part. ... That's not good faith. | ||
cakepie
985 Posts
town cakepie cakepie has discovered the scumteam and their nefarious plan scum cakepie cakepie and CR have come up with a nefarious plan to mislead town. This plan involves contorting the filters of two townies to make it look like they are a scumteam with a nefarious plan. Occam's razor, yo. | ||
Tumblewood
United States3709 Posts
On December 12 2016 01:40 cakepie wrote: There are two narratives possible for what I'm doing. town cakepie cakepie has discovered the scumteam and their nefarious plan scum cakepie cakepie and CR have come up with a nefarious plan to mislead town. This plan involves contorting the filters of two townies to make it look like they are a scumteam with a nefarious plan. Occam's razor, yo. this is not how occam's razor works at all if assuming you and ray are the scumteam and having a nefarious plan is two assumptions, how is me and ExO being the scumteam and having a nefarious plan one assumption? 0/10 terrible post | ||
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