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The Game [N] - Page 102

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RyuSuzaku
Profile Joined March 2013
Japan139 Posts
March 21 2013 03:09 GMT
#2021
On March 21 2013 12:03 sciberbia wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 21 2013 11:54 RyuSuzaku wrote:
On March 21 2013 11:45 sciberbia wrote:
VE
I don't think VE is scum.
I think VE might be third party (either now or by tonight).
I don't know if said third party is worth our time disposing of.
Hence I don't like voting for VE.


This line of thinking is really stupid.

Assuming you are town, you will optimally lynch ANY confirmed or highly probable non-town player immediately. This is not a kingmaker scenario (in which case it would not matter who you lynched anyway). Our goal is to kill all non-town. Do not make assumptions about the setup. Not lynching VE despite thinking he is third party is simply antitown and goes against our wincondition.


Our win condition is not to remove all non-town. It is to remove all threats to the town.

Show nested quote +
On March 16 2013 15:24 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
TO CLARIFY

If you are green or blue your win condition is to remove all threats to the town, the same as it always is.


You are the one making an assumption by assuming that the mirror is a threat to the town. I see no good evidence of this. For one thing, he does not seem to have KP.

This is something that irks me about closed setups though. You can help your alignment to win by knowing what kinds of setups the host would be likely to make. I don't know anything about DrH but I see no in-thread evidence that the mirror is a threat to us.


what convoluted world do you live in that a third party is "not a threat" to town?

This is a normal game, anything not green or blue needs to be killed before the town can win.

Dragon Bird
WaveofShadow
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada31494 Posts
March 21 2013 03:09 GMT
#2022
On March 21 2013 12:08 Vivax wrote:
WoS that guy is your green DT check how is it a concern for you that he slips under the radar?

Maybe your claim was fake after all.

No, I'm pissed that it's the same people contributing. Mafia don't even have to NK half of our townies because they don't do anything and we're going to lose because of it.

Let me read into GK, DP.

I'm so frustrated with this game.
twitch.tv/waveofshadow ||| Winner of AHGL's So You Think You Can Cast! ||| Juicy Dad for lyfe ||| 'idk i get a kick out of stupid things' - Jarms Yarng
WaveofShadow
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada31494 Posts
March 21 2013 03:10 GMT
#2023
On March 21 2013 12:09 sciberbia wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 21 2013 12:07 WaveofShadow wrote:
That was hours ago. I know I read him as town but FUCK. How in the hell are we ever going to win this game if we have townies like this guy??


You read him as town?

Lol I was right, you DIDN'T read the thread.
You assume my blue claim was false but you have no idea what I fucking did with my role?
twitch.tv/waveofshadow ||| Winner of AHGL's So You Think You Can Cast! ||| Juicy Dad for lyfe ||| 'idk i get a kick out of stupid things' - Jarms Yarng
Mr. Wiggles
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Canada5894 Posts
March 21 2013 03:10 GMT
#2024
My case since it was on the bottom of the page.

+ Show Spoiler +
On March 21 2013 12:09 Mr. Wiggles wrote:
I want Ace to die. As I'm about to show, he is scum, and his head should roll.

Firstly, I will give an overview of Ace's play this game. So far, he has been:

Promising reads on mafia, but not delivering any.
Pushing a lynch on someone based on the assumption that they are third party, to the exclusion of everything else*.
Talking about general role mechanics/fluff otherwise.

When Ace joined the game, he made this post, indicating that he was excited to join the game and start scumhunting:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2013 11:59 Ace wrote:
I just recently got my role guys, going to read the thread from Day 1 later and start casting votes ^_^

However, since then, he has yet to share a cogent read on who he thinks is mafia.

The closest we get to a solid mafia read from Ace is him calling Mocsta scum, with a small amount of justification, but in the hours that follow before he posts again, he doesn't make any sort of push for his lynch or pressure him. As well, the only other read Ace provides is to call WoS town, but more solid reasoning doesn't come until directly after WoS has claimed DT and therefore put the brakes on his lynch.

Since then, the only thing Ace has provided are more promises of finding mafia and pushing the lynch onto VE based on an emotional push that plays on town's fears while trying to stopper discussion on other lynch targets.

He makes this post asking town to stop talking about other lynch targets and to lynch VE:
Show nested quote +
On March 21 2013 01:52 Ace wrote:
Stop talking about other people and stay focused on one person at a time. Jesus I don't want to have to teach people how to play my first game back in months.

Just dealwith VE now. Re-read the log: He accepted to join a 3rd party that clearly doesn't have interest in helping the Town. Whether VE is still Townis irrelevant: whatever powers he gets or grants to the 3rd party isn't going to help us. Lynch him now. Treat him like a self aware Miller and just solve the problem immediately.

He is then questioned about why we can't scumhunt and lynch VE at the same time, and this is how he responds:
Show nested quote +
On March 21 2013 02:02 Ace wrote:
We aren't going to stop scumhunting: that would be dumb.

But leaving a claimed 3rd party player alive, when it empowers a player we have no idea about is just as dumb. I don't see how this is a difficult concept to understand.

I guess you guys think leaving claimed Serial Killers alive is a good idea as long as they help the town. lulz.
Show nested quote +
On March 21 2013 02:11 Ace wrote:
zarepath, if VE is some kind of 3rd party Vet with more than 1 shot powers he can only die by lynch. I'm pretty sure the Town has some kind of night KP - we find a Scum today and vigi him. Both problems solved.

So here he's saying that we should still scumhunt while we lynch VE. However, he has not done that. He has not shared any reads, and he has not provided any information that might help town find mafia to follow his own plan of shooting them tonight. There is no reason not to talk about other scum candidates during the day, even if the decision to lynch VE was unanimous, as it is still time that town can easily use to discuss cases and help formulate targets for a potential vig. Ace has not done this, but instead has continued tunneling on the VE wagon, without feeling the need to do anything else of value, despite posting throughout the day.

Now, I will explain why I find the way Ace is pushing the VE lynch scummy:

Firstly, he does not question The Mirror at all. Ace simply assumes that The Mirror is a third party recruiter and that VE has been recruited without taking any time to reflect on the situation, instead opting to sweep up town into a whirlwind of paranoia and confusion.

Ace is very quick to spam the idea that VE is third party and that he has to be the lynch, as shown in these posts:
+ Show Spoiler +

On March 21 2013 01:24 Ace wrote:
lynch VE. now.
On March 21 2013 01:38 Ace wrote:
your right, it's not like a claimed Vet is a confirmed Town sure to get shot because he is running around popping Scum and didn't just say he accepted an invite from 3rd party.

Stop being ridiculous.
On March 21 2013 01:42 Ace wrote:
I dont have one, and I don't think it's important right now.Lynch VE.

On March 21 2013 01:47 Ace wrote:
Who CARES if he is a Vet? He just posted logs of him joining a 3rd party and even said fuck the Town. This isn't hard.
On March 21 2013 01:52 Ace wrote:
Stop talking about other people and stay focused on one person at a time. Jesus I don't want to have to teach people how to play my first game back in months.

Just dealwith VE now. Re-read the log: He accepted to join a 3rd party that clearly doesn't have interest in helping the Town. Whether VE is still Townis irrelevant: whatever powers he gets or grants to the 3rd party isn't going to help us. Lynch him now. Treat him like a self aware Miller and just solve the problem immediately.

Within 30 minutes, Ace has posted 5 times reinforcing that VE is third-party and has to be lynched. In later posts, he continues to overplay the threat of VE that he has established, saying that he has extra powers, that he's unkillable, and that we'd have an unlynchable anti-town player at one point. These don't provide any additional reasons for why VE is scum, instead they only help scare town into thinking VE will become some unstoppable third party if he's left alive.

Now, I find this disingenuous, because Ace did not take any time to consider any other possibilities, and he took everything said in the QT at face value. He does not question if The Mirror is actually a third party recruiter, he does not question if VE actually receives powers, he does not question anything at all. Instead, he takes the opportunity of the posted logs to derail the town into a witch hunt and single-mindedly beats in the idea that VE is now third party.

Ace is a very good scum player. He has a keen sense of timing and is quick to seize opportunities presented to him in the thread. He played a very lurky style without doing much of anything until he saw his chance and jumped on VE and his QT logs. Since then he has pushed only this idea, which makes it look like he is actually doing something, while he has done nothing at all, and distracts town from hunting mafia.

This is why I believe Ace is scum, and needs to hang.

##Vote: Ace

Supporting Meta:
+ Show Spoiler +

As scum, I find that Ace often likes to waste town's time talking about useless things, while doing only the minimal amount needed to look town. For example, in Sleeper Cell mafia, he got town to talk about a hypothetical situation which had no bearing on the game, wasting time on Day 1. In Wheel of Fortune mafia, he launched town into a discussion of role mechanics and possible set-up plans, distracting from scumhunting and effective play. I see the same sort of play here, with Ace pushing the town into considering third parties and possible recruiters instead of focusing on scum.

Additionally, I would like to contrast his play here to his play in Mafia XLVII, which I hosted. In that game, Ace replaced into the game on Day 2, taking on the role of Vigilante. As well, to put things in perspective, at that time there were over 100 pages posted, and the town was in near complete chaos without any strong town leaders or direction.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=285690
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=285690&user=377

I was very interested to see Ace's town play that game, and while he was unfortunately modkilled, I think the distinction in play between this game and that one is pretty telling.

In that game, Ace was aggressive and assertive, trying quickly to set the town back on track and get them focused on hunting scum. He wasn't scared to share reads and didn't waste time mincing words. To illustrate, I'll quote his first four posts:
+ Show Spoiler +
On November 28 2011 08:29 Ace wrote:
I will not even read my role PM and still win this game. First thing you guys should do is lynch Palmar and then lynch supersoft.

On November 28 2011 08:34 Ace wrote:
Also hier and that guy's name that starts with a v were making a lot of sense from my skims. You should protect them at all costs. Everyone else is food.

Show nested quote +
On November 28 2011 08:32 Hier wrote:
On November 28 2011 08:29 Ace wrote:
I will not even read my role PM and still win this game. First thing you guys should do is lynch Palmar and then lynch supersoft.

Did you replace a mobster?


I roll auto-town in every game I play.

On November 28 2011 08:47 Ace wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 28 2011 08:39 Benjef wrote:
Haha I love this Ace guy already. Any reasoning behind your want to lynch Palmer? Hes done a pretty good job of protecting himself so far but I'm still not 100% sold on him.


youngminii isn't a bad player at all. In fact he had a decent amount of posts. Let's keep that in mind.

In any game of Mafia with a day start everyone that is Town aligned has no information outside of themselves barring special circumstances.

Also keep in mind that lynches are used to get rid of Scum.

The Mayor gets his 1 time auto-lynch. Who should he lynch?

Remember, the Mayor if Town doesn't know who is Scum. He is just as much in the dark as everyone else.

So why would you lynch youngminii?

The only justification is if he can be proven to be Scum. But it's a day start, hence Palmar doesn't have enough information to justify lynching an active player.

Typically you want to lynch someone that is inactive or known to be useless. YM doesn't fit either of these criteria. The Mayor abused his power to get rid of someone who he didn't like. Which even if he was Town-aligned shows our Mayor isn't fit enough for office to think clearly and take dissenting opinions without making a bold move.

But Palmar is a decent player (far, far, far below my level but still). So he should know better than to do that. Combine his expected behavior with his ridiculous actions = Scum Mayor.

supersoft is terrible so you want to get rid of him asap. Easily sheeped into doing Scummy things. Very possible he is Scum.

On November 28 2011 08:51 Ace wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 28 2011 08:43 Hassybaby wrote:
Dammit...I was just about to say:

Teach me your ways Ace. Be the Boxer to my iloveoov!

But back on topic, x you asked me to look at super. Well, I had a read through his posts. Didn't see any major scummy indicators IMO, but then Ace sorta came in, so 'id love to sere what he's gonna say about it.

One thing struck me as weird:

On November 25 2011 19:46 supersoft wrote:
On November 25 2011 19:38 Ciryandor wrote:
On November 25 2011 19:26 supersoft wrote:
this game would be much more fun if i were mafia:
i'd play like wbg or redFF, flooding the whole thread with bullshit.

Just a question, then why lurk? That's like doing a WIFOM of what you are. I know you think that Sand/Palmar's candidacy are the best bets for town, why not provide support for them and at least downplay others' concerns if you think they're townie and they deserve your support?


maybe i dont think that? so far i think only wbg and redff are town. but these two arent capable to be mayor. they're just too spammy/emotional etc.
if palmar and sandroba fail to convince me, i am going to try to find someone alse.


Something doesn't sounds right there. How can you say they're flooding the thread with bullshit, then say straight after that they're town? They're vets, so they should know better right?


supersoft is a typical sheep. However if he's easily pandering to Palmar and handroba to convince him that just reeks of Scum selling his vote (until it hits an ally).


Now, contrast that to this game. While the circumstances are very similar, the difference in play seems night and day. The Ace in this game is not the same town Ace that I enjoyed watching play in XLVII. In this game, he is not worried about catching scum or providing direction to the town. He is only worried with wasting time and doing enough to make himself look good.



Now, I'll talk a little bit about VE and his logs.

Firstly, there's no reason to believe that The Mirror is actually a third party recruiter. All we have to support that idea, is The Mirror's word, which for obvious reasons we cannot trust. In fact, it makes sense to me that The Mirror is a scum mason. VE already outed BH in the thread as masoning him, and had outed The Mirror rather quickly as well. Scum would know this, so by masoning VE, they can nearly assure that he will report back to the thread with what he was told. This puts the idea in the thread that there's a third party recruiter, which would cause mass confusion for town.

If town thinks there's a third party, they're going to start looking for third party players that don't exist. They're going to point out people as being third party, they're going to want to kill people for being third party, and later in the game when no third parties have flipped, town will get nervous and start looking for third party under the assumption that there's quite a lot of them by now and therefore they're a present threat that needs to be dealt with.

It's a very good, slick, move for mafia, because it costs them nothing (the mason is anonymous), but it causes mass confusion and misdirection in the town from the time it is revealed until the end of the game.

As well, I can't really see VE doing what he did if he was actually recruited. Firstly, why out himself or his new ally to the thread, especially at the same time? It doesn't make any sense. It's much better to keep is new faction a secret, so that they can gain strength. Posting it in the thread doesn't benefit him at all. Therefore, it's much more likely that VE was not recruited.

So overall, I think The Mirror is very likely to be a mafia mason trying to spread confusion.

you gotta dance
Mocsta
Profile Joined December 2012
Australia9388 Posts
March 21 2013 03:11 GMT
#2025
LOl wiggles

if you're gonna build a case on ace.. need to show why hopeless1der was scum too pl0x
RyuSuzaku
Profile Joined March 2013
Japan139 Posts
March 21 2013 03:12 GMT
#2026
also, how can you justify letting VE live when clearly he doesn't care about actually finding/killing scum?

He's only concerned with living/not getting lynched. To this end, notice how his "reads" have changed. They've varied radically at every passing moment. At some point he was convinced DarthPunk was scum, that wiggles was town, then that Wade+me+Coag are scum, then he switched to wanting Wiggles dead.

How can anyone reasonably say that VE is interested in the same things town is interested in? The best evidence we have points to the conclusion that he is not, and so he should die.
Dragon Bird
Vivax
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
21972 Posts
March 21 2013 03:12 GMT
#2027
Wiggles I promise to read and review your case but the only realistic option now is not ace, it's either VE or GoodKarma. Join our wagon of justice.
sciberbia
Profile Joined April 2011
United States1359 Posts
March 21 2013 03:14 GMT
#2028
@WoS
I did read the thread and I know you claim to have investigated TPS. Which is why it's odd to me that you bring him up as useless and say you "read" him as town when if you are a cop then you know for a fact he is town. Anyway, you are not the lynch today so I'm dropping this.

I will read Wiggles's case and probably end up consolidating onto GK unless it is like the best case I've ever read.
DarthPunk
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Australia10857 Posts
March 21 2013 03:14 GMT
#2029
@mr wiggles. If we are being realistic we are not goign to get a lynch off on ace last minute. If you think VE is not mafia you should consolidate onto goodkarma and we can deal with ace tomorrow.
"If I wanted your opinion, I'd have told you what it was."
Mocsta
Profile Joined December 2012
Australia9388 Posts
March 21 2013 03:15 GMT
#2030
##Vote: goodkarma

SHEEP ME
WaveofShadow
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada31494 Posts
March 21 2013 03:15 GMT
#2031
Wiggles I fucking hate you. Where the fuck was shit like this for the first few days?
You people wonder why I don't make cases and just sheep, shit like this is why. I can barely throw something coherent together and when I do I get shit on. A guy who doesn't contribute at all and barely shows up does one thing which will probably essentially remove all suspicion of him and any chance of him getting lynched tonight.

Just tell me who to vote for and I'll do it; I'm dead tomorrow night anyway.
twitch.tv/waveofshadow ||| Winner of AHGL's So You Think You Can Cast! ||| Juicy Dad for lyfe ||| 'idk i get a kick out of stupid things' - Jarms Yarng
WaveofShadow
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada31494 Posts
March 21 2013 03:17 GMT
#2032
On March 21 2013 12:14 sciberbia wrote:
@WoS
I did read the thread and I know you claim to have investigated TPS. Which is why it's odd to me that you bring him up as useless and say you "read" him as town when if you are a cop then you know for a fact he is town. Anyway, you are not the lynch today so I'm dropping this.

I will read Wiggles's case and probably end up consolidating onto GK unless it is like the best case I've ever read.

Oh please. 'Read,' "Checked,' same thing. All the info is out there. If every case against me is going to be built on semantics then you guys may as well policy lynch me from the start of every game considering how many mistakes I make.
twitch.tv/waveofshadow ||| Winner of AHGL's So You Think You Can Cast! ||| Juicy Dad for lyfe ||| 'idk i get a kick out of stupid things' - Jarms Yarng
WaveofShadow
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada31494 Posts
March 21 2013 03:18 GMT
#2033
DP I'm trusting you with this.
Unvote: Mr. Wiggles
Vote: Goodkarma
twitch.tv/waveofshadow ||| Winner of AHGL's So You Think You Can Cast! ||| Juicy Dad for lyfe ||| 'idk i get a kick out of stupid things' - Jarms Yarng
Mocsta
Profile Joined December 2012
Australia9388 Posts
March 21 2013 03:18 GMT
#2034
On March 21 2013 12:15 WaveofShadow wrote:
Wiggles I fucking hate you. Where the fuck was shit like this for the first few days?
You people wonder why I don't make cases and just sheep, shit like this is why. I can barely throw something coherent together and when I do I get shit on. A guy who doesn't contribute at all and barely shows up does one thing which will probably essentially remove all suspicion of him and any chance of him getting lynched tonight.

Just tell me who to vote for and I'll do it; I'm dead tomorrow night anyway.

Actually Wiggles post on ace reads great..

and ironically his "meta case on ace" replacing into a game as town.. is pretty much how i have entered the game

==============

Having said that.. the mafia mason connection mystifies me.

Why? because.. i agree with him, but with much less confidence.

In personality2, the town thread was so confused about events.. i decided to tell the truth on what occured (i.e. death framer) and ppl just laughed at me, even though i spoke with confidence about the event.

This reminds me of that situation.. i *think* there is a mafia mason involved for the mirror

Wiggles talks as if there *IS* a mafia mason involved

Thoughs.. am i over reading this?
WaveofShadow
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada31494 Posts
March 21 2013 03:22 GMT
#2035
Regarding the mirror, whoever it was obviously knew he was risking being outed at any time and chose his rolename accordingly. If he is a different role other than the Mirror he risks being counterclaimed since no one knows what the roles are. So if 'the Mirror' is not ACTUALLY the mirror he must know what the mirror really is.

TL;DR The Mirror is likely the true role of whoever masoned VE; it's just a matter of what alignment they are.
twitch.tv/waveofshadow ||| Winner of AHGL's So You Think You Can Cast! ||| Juicy Dad for lyfe ||| 'idk i get a kick out of stupid things' - Jarms Yarng
Mocsta
Profile Joined December 2012
Australia9388 Posts
March 21 2013 03:23 GMT
#2036
DP...

i know you feel strongly about gk... are you tempted by TestSubject?

His +1 vote timing on GreyMist is *very* suspicious and to me with the thread sentiment at the time, speaks of mafia.
Mr. Wiggles
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Canada5894 Posts
March 21 2013 03:25 GMT
#2037
Three of you just switched to Good Karma in the last twenty minutes. He only has four votes. Why can't we kill Ace again?
you gotta dance
Mocsta
Profile Joined December 2012
Australia9388 Posts
March 21 2013 03:26 GMT
#2038
On March 21 2013 12:25 Mr. Wiggles wrote:
Three of you just switched to Good Karma in the last twenty minutes. He only has four votes. Why can't we kill Ace again?

U have to prove Hopeless1der is also scum
WaveofShadow
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada31494 Posts
March 21 2013 03:26 GMT
#2039
On March 21 2013 12:25 Mr. Wiggles wrote:
Three of you just switched to Good Karma in the last twenty minutes. He only has four votes. Why can't we kill Ace again?

I'd rather trust DP with my vote than you, honestly.
twitch.tv/waveofshadow ||| Winner of AHGL's So You Think You Can Cast! ||| Juicy Dad for lyfe ||| 'idk i get a kick out of stupid things' - Jarms Yarng
goodkarma
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States1067 Posts
March 21 2013 03:26 GMT
#2040
So I come back to see DP proposing a lynch, with the only justification being this:

On March 21 2013 11:19 DarthPunk wrote:
OK Goodkarma is being useless this game. I know goodkarma and he is NEVER useless as town.

##Vote: Goodkarma


I believe you're over-romanticizing that game. I solved the game all in one go, with one post identifying the remaining two scum on day four...

As for being "useless," I wouldn't say I've been useless this game. If you were to look through my filter you should have figured that out... Have I had that ground-breaking case post this game that makes everyone's jaws drop? Not yet, but that doesn't make me scum.


If you're going to make a case against me, at least put some effort into it to show exactly how I'm scum rather than some one-liner.

I'm not liking how we're splitting up our votes yet again RIGHT BEFORE the lynch deadline. Like how the hell are we supposed to catch scum when we divide up everything so nicely for scum to manipulate the vote?
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