EPTThe Game [N] - Page 101
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geript
10024 Posts
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Mocsta
Australia9388 Posts
I will go gk Those mason logs have really irked me. | ||
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geript
10024 Posts
On March 21 2013 11:43 Vivax wrote: Wait what I posted an extensive case against GK much much earlier and "He's useless D2" suddenly convinces some people to look into him? This makes me really really sad. I'm glad however that people are noticing what's up. I remember reading the case, the problem is that most of the cases you've posted are literally unreadable. | ||
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Mocsta
Australia9388 Posts
i knwo that sucks..b ut its true ... VE position is too compromised to trust right now. | ||
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Mocsta
Australia9388 Posts
On March 21 2013 11:49 geript wrote: I remember reading the case, the problem is that most of the cases you've posted are literally unreadable. I disagree I thought his cases have been succinct. Whether I agree with the reasoning is a different story. But your choice of word "unreadable" is peculiar. | ||
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RyuSuzaku
Japan139 Posts
On March 21 2013 11:45 sciberbia wrote: VE I don't think VE is scum. I think VE might be third party (either now or by tonight). I don't know if said third party is worth our time disposing of. Hence I don't like voting for VE. This line of thinking is really stupid. Assuming you are town, you will optimally lynch ANY confirmed or highly probable non-town player immediately. This is not a kingmaker scenario (in which case it would not matter who you lynched anyway). Our goal is to kill all non-town. Do not make assumptions about the setup. Not lynching VE despite thinking he is third party is simply antitown and goes against our wincondition. I do think we should discuss other targets, but lynching VE is priority #1. On March 21 2013 11:47 VisceraEyes wrote: I'm making a case on Wiggles. It's irrefutable I can assure you. This is the time. OUR FREEDOM IS AT HAND!!! Sounds like fabrication to me, given that the tone of this post indicates VE wanting to simply live, and having already assumed Wiggles is scum in order to attack him. If VE truly were town I would expect him to attack his top 3 "scumreads" from earlier, which included Wade, myself, and Coagulation. Instead, he chooses Wiggles, whom he called town on day 1, only to mysteriously change his stance. VE seemed to be cognizant of this apparent discrepancy, since he found the need to say this: On March 20 2013 07:38 VisceraEyes wrote: For the record, I was scum on Wiggles, I just wasn't willing to lynch him today until that post. But that post shows me that he doesn't care at all about finding scum . which doesn't make much sense. At the very least his change of stance regarding Wade in light of greymist's flip can be justified according to balance concerns, but this change of stance makes no sense at all. Ignoring VE, I think we should lynch TranceStorm tomorrow. He still has done nothing and despite his statement that he would lurk less he is still not around. | ||
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Vivax
21972 Posts
Cosmicomics1: + Show Spoiler + On March 18 2013 01:21 Vivax wrote: + Show Spoiler + The "scumslip": I tried to guess TPS alignment, and it sounds a lot like (a townish) yamato, especially in the two posts after I voted for him. So I actually would like to know if it's really him since he didn't answer to me yet I think. I'm not too bad at guessing smurfs, I like to do that as either alignment (LX as reference for me doing it as mafia, LIX for town where I guessed marv correctly). ______________________________________________________________________________________________________ Sandroba I wrote about him here cosmicomics Let's put ourselves into the shoes of a townie who didn't post anything yet at a later point in D1. You don't know who's innocent, you don't know who's guilty, so you will usually say "I find this dude suspicious cause of x and I agree with y cause of bsbsbsbsbs" after having a read of everything, maybe throw in a few questions to see who agrees with you on something or why someone did a certain thing. I can't remember the last time I popped into the thread asking a question about a dude I don't know the alignment of, and nitpicking while doing so. Look at the question in question. It's not constructed to get a reasonable answer for the purposes of this game. It's constructed in a way that I have to answer with a version of town sandro I have in my head. Maybe town sandro does x and y and z, shortly, it's constructed in a way that it may lead me to say tons of stupid things if I answered it. Thanks to another player I value for his support, he answered this question for me by providing a town sandro filter. But that's not the worst about this question. As I said, I consider this to be nitpicking. I wrote And this dude picks a cherry and ignores everything I actually said about why sandro doesn't look like town without commenting on the points I made. He doesn't give his own opinion of sandro and doesn't agree on at least a bit of it, cause he should. What I said is true. In the next post, he twists my words: Again, sandro's reads did differ from mine. But cosmicomics cherrypicks again, since not only was my point that sandro's reads were strange cause they differed from mine, but they were strange cause he gave them without reasoning and they didn't seem to make sense to me. And I said it in the post. Then he proceeds to defend sandroba based on some unique scumhunting style. I saw sandro being wrong and right often enough to not give him an air of legend allowing him to give reads without explanation and fucking off. Cosmicomics seems to be idealizing a guy he shouldn't have a read on this early in the game. After this he makes a quick minicase regarding an inconsistency, with no conclusion as to why DarthPunk is scum, drops his vote and doesn't inquire anything further regarding DP. This is the guy I want to lynch the most today. It looks a lot like he's posting with an agenda. ##Unvote ##Vote cosmicomics Cosmicomics and Zarepath: + Show Spoiler + On March 19 2013 01:09 Vivax wrote: I'd like to analyse the votes and the related posts with a few presumptions:
I think those who switched from DP to GM last are most worth a look: Zare and cosmic. So first of all, let me start with my reasoning as to why I think that most if not all of scum is on the GM bandwagon. To do so, we have to exclude that scum were on the other two wagons. Let's start with DP (who I have as townread currently) I think the DP wagon has two explanations: Either DP is scum and zare and cosmic set themselves up to bus him only to switch later. Or they thought that his wagon would gain steam and then saw that it didn't work, deciding to switch to GM (possibly to save zarepath). To check which one applies, I'd have to see how Zare + cosmic vote for DP and then switch to GM. Do they push the lynches? Are they consistent with their reads? Are the reasons good? That said, I'll leave it to them to justify it. After rereading Zarepath I'm confident he's scum anyway, as for cosmic, you should know my opinion on him since early. I think the zarepath wagon was the right wagon to go, and am assuming all on that one were townies. Sciberbia hit like a swiss knife again. So we are left with the GM wagon. Now let me point out the switches coupled with my former reasoning. _____________________________________________________________________________________________________ ZAREPATH The timing of this post + Show Spoiler + On March 18 2013 09:03 zarepath wrote: Okay, I just poked in to catch up as much as I can -- sorry that I am looking scummy; I will be able to participate much more during the week (as opposed to the weekend) and will hopefully be able to prove my alignment in a better fashion than I have thus far. Darth Punk was one of something like 8 different people I suspected yesterday, and from the last couple of pages it seems as though his defense of other people's pressure hasn't been stellar. Mainly, all of his reads have been people who have been pressuring him, and much of his text is defending the first day of his game, not actively trying to find out who is scum. The people he lists as scum suspects are not people he's trying to get others to lynch; it's entirely responsive. I don't know if anybody else has mentioned this, but his first post seemed almost suspiciously over the top (I'm so excited for this game!), and that's another reason I feel okay about lynching him. I wish I'd had time to look over some more candidates, but at this moment (and time is running short) I don't feel too bad about throwing my vote onto DarthPunk. ##Vote: DarthPunk was right after DP got his ass gunned by VE. So zarepath should have felt that a wagon was coming and set himself up for it, and, coupled with the inconsistency sciberbia pointed out where zare asked that question about DP's early vote being unlikely for scum this doesn't look good for zare who suddenly got a scumread on the guy who just defended himself quite effectively, in my opinion. As always, zarepath seems to be in a hurry, so he drops a couple of reasons to vote for him. I disagree with some reasons he mentions but they're not the main point of this case. Does he push the case? No he doesn't. What we also notice is the timing of his vote. He cast his vote on DP after Ryu's convincing case on Grey. Time difference: Then, when Grey had 8 votes on him already, he comes in with that "read" on him after asking him a question Not only did Ryu post a pretty strong case against Grey, which was the main reason so many people switched to him, and Zare doesn't refer to it at all, but he even thought DP was a better choice when Ryu posted the case before Zare voted DP. Does this look like a guy who's trying to figure the game out? Who pushes his lynches? Who explains his reads? Frankly I don't know what the reason is for why he votes Greymist, but apparently this guy doesn't have any real scumreads, cause when called out by sciberbia for his inconsistency, he says this: Did you see DP being stubborn about his scumreads although under heavy pressure? Or Greymist saying he wants GK lynched while going down? This is what townies behave (Yes I think DP is town). Scumreads over everything, real patriots of their hometown. Zarepath instead gives weak reasoning for switching votes, and his reads look fake. He doesn't have the ambition of a townie to get the scum lynched, he says Greymist is scummy but at the same time says he wants to vote for him to save his own hide. If you think the first you don't argue with the latter. Verdict 1: Zarepath is scum. Let's go back to the defence post: This dude defended both TPS and GK, who all have done scummy things according to most of this town, yet this guy disagrees with a lynch on them, says he has nothing to add, then lists things he finds scummy about them. Instinctive: We assume they are his scumbuddies, so we dig a little there, too, and we also see they were early on the GM wagon, like predicted at the start of this post. I'm right in between them (curse me). Scumlarm rings. ______________________________________________________________________________________________________ COSMICOMICS Most of the stuff I found suspicious about Cosmic still applies. So I'll just stick to the newer stuff especially related to the GM bandwagon, my old one is here So first, let's bring up what he does exactly like zarepath, he tries to get the DP bandwagon rolling, and later switches to Grey even though he voted DP after Ryu's case. (His first post regarding DP included a vote here but not in the voting thread, so he did vote after Ryu's case effectively). As we see, cosmicomics reasons for voting DP were his pressure vote on geript and how it was a lie cause he stopped the RNG stuff. I think this is a terrible point to bring against someone being mafia and only represents cosmicomics trying to use something that looks like an inconsistency to jump on and push the DP wagon. Early game pressure votes when people talk about the hipsteRNG are perfectly fine in my opinion and I had my vote on kita for a long time even after he delurked right after it, that's inconsistent too but it doesn't make me scum. I mainly want to show the mafia agenda behind the switch from DP to Grey, cause I think mafia tried to save zarepath's ass with the switch from DP to Grey later. Here we see something that only reinforces my connection case: Zarepath defended TPS and GK. Cosmicomics defends Zarepath and GK and shows really weird behaviour. He thinks I'm showing genuine efforts by directing the attention towards him. I don't know about you but when I'm town I don't like people calling me scum and forcing me to defend myself. But well, what matters is his defense of these two guys. Then cosmic asks DP these two questions: Upon which DP reacts with this: Judge these reasons to favour Greymist by yourself. I think cosmicomics is scummy since early, so just go read my case  GOODKARMA Then obviously, there's GK and TPS. I think these two dudes are scum, too if I just look at how Zare and cosmic handled them. I currently don't know who the fifth scum might be, but I kinda ruled out Ryu for this question from GK I'll post more later and possibly figure out the fifth one, writing this post was pretty tiring and took me ages :3 GoodKarma (and glurio) + Show Spoiler + On March 19 2013 08:47 Vivax wrote: Anyway I've decided that I'm pissed off by how scum responded to my case unpunished by fellow townies so I've decided to awake the sleeping half-drunk dragon in me and finish them off with some more bombastic reads from good old crazy Vivax. + Show Spoiler + Before they kill me in a horrible way I'll start with those with small filters and probably be a little more vague on TPS cause he seems to be the more active sort of scum but it looks like the kind who tends to slip so you will catch him sooner or later. So first, part 1 to the scumwnage: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=402057¤tpage=37#728 GOODKARMA YO (This will be easy) Ok, part 1 of this post he replies to this regarding grey: + Show Spoiler + On March 17 2013 03:53 goodkarma wrote: Okay. I can understand it was early. But if we were to look in the here and now you still haven't provided anything that suggests who you think could be scum. I think what peashooter, and others here are getting at, is either post something that helps us scumhunt, or don't post at all. I am less inclined than others here to just policy lynch you. But you make it hard for us when you continue to spam the thread with emotional OMGUS responses. Hopefully you see where we're coming from. I would be most interested in hearing about your read on Grey. As we see GK rides an attack against Coag along with Glurio - click for link (soft one Look at dem TPS and Zarepath reads) and TPS at the time (surprise suprise) His own points against Coag are that he doesn't post scumreads and it's unclear as to why he refers to Coag as policy lynch. It seems like good town atmosphere for GK is to discuss policy lynches he defines himself as such cause a guy didn't post his scumreads, but let's look at the next post. Next he comments a little on Grey, posts very little..seems detached.Well ok nothing we can say against that it's the next part where it gets juicy. Wiggles calls him out for it (rightfully) and says he pressures Coag for not posting scumreads but GK didn't provide anything himself, and calls Coag scummy for not giving reads, refuses to give reads himself and referred to Coag as policy lynch, so judge for yourself. Then, there's this question to Ryu which seems unlikely as scum to scum question so it was one of the reasons I dismissed Ryu for now, I already mentioned this in my previous case post (hi stutters). ALRIGHT, next interesting post. We see GK sets himself up for the common bandwagons in this post when the time seems ripe. He also soft defends TPS like most of the other guys I mentioned. Oh, you. Why is it suspicious? Most people were kinda sold on their own targets and consolidated later for lack of a common agreement, on Greymist after Ryu's post. They did so after pushing for their own lynch and asking their targets questions. GK however seems to be switching from target to target, but with very low pressure or pushing between them. He said Coag is scummy, he didn't post a case nor ask questions. He said GM was detached etc. etc., no case and no questions. He said Wiggles was scummy and that it's not OMGUS, no ____ and no ______ Now he's back to GM!Surprise! He also seems fine with DP. What a coincidence zarepath and cosmicomics too! Need I say more? + Show Spoiler + On March 17 2013 09:15 goodkarma wrote: I would say that my stance on VE has been that he was being silly. That coag attempted to go into the group though convinced me that I needed to be sure it didn't gain momentum as it was not a very pro-town plan. I'm not against "town circles," however, if they're done right. Just because I had issues with Wiggles and he accused me first doesn't make it an OMGUS. He is lurking the shit out of the thread now. The mentality being, "I presented my case, now I don't need to do shit." That is a scum mentality, not a town one. It shows disinterest in the thread. As for "deflecting to lurkers," I don't see what you mean. The game was SO early at that point.. I don't feel you could call anyone that didn't chime in yet lurkers. Anything else? I will be presenting my own case before the evening's done, so everyone has a solid 24ish hours to look at it. But I typically don't like to jump into cases as quickly as some here. Call that scummy if you want, but it's my playstyle. It ends with these two in quick succession (no questions or anything between them, common pattern) and I'm not commenting on more actually. My fingers itch and are tired from my big cases today, I need to go for glurio now. Use your own judgement, I only provide the right lenses. ______________________________________________________________________________________________________ GLURIO JA Well basically the post I linked is a strong point imo but I'm also least sure about this guy cause his filter is small, he defended many people who I think are townies (me included) although he did give my top scumreads slack. He sheeped on the DP wagon and left, just now popped in and asked me a question with its answer in my filter without answering mine and disappeared. So I feel like he could be a decent fifth scum but first of all: 1.Lynch Zarepath 2. Lynch Cosmicomics 3. Lynch GK 4. Lynch TPS 5. (lynch glurio) Reevaluate after their flips, there's a lot of time. It doesn't look like there's vets among them and I don't know how DrH balances his setups but in case of doubt assume he randomed. These guys all are unwilling to give out reads on each other and some of them started to attack zarepath only after I posted my huge case (and after asking veeery unrelated questions and disappearing, just TPS and zare stayed around acting pretty weird), see it and believe it. Alright, I hope I'll be around tomorrow and not dead. If I die, you can imagine why (hint: Not WIFOM) <3 town | ||
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RyuSuzaku
Japan139 Posts
I think he's more likely to be scum than glurio. I haven't looked too closely into the other players, but from memory I can't recall anything significant that any of them have done. They all are lurkers to me. | ||
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Vivax
21972 Posts
On March 21 2013 11:58 RyuSuzaku wrote: Vivax what do you think of TranceStorm as a lynch? I think he's more likely to be scum than glurio. I haven't looked too closely into the other players, but from memory I can't recall anything significant that any of them have done. They all are lurkers to me. That's my current opinion, too. I just wrote (and glurio) cause I thought he is included in my earlier case. Here I wrote about TS. + Show Spoiler + On March 21 2013 09:15 Vivax wrote: As pointed out with the Bureaucreacy slip in the qt, The Mirror is probably layabout. This also is displayed by his lack of involvement in the game and certain anti-town traits I noticed. I am still confident zarepath, GK and cosmicomics are scum. However, as I see it as of now there are the 2 wildcards I mentioned earlier: Given Trancestorm's latest entrance and a look at his filter I feel he is a good candidate for one of the spots, in the other spot I see fitting either Coag, WF or kita. Coag obviously the guy I'm least sure about. Fairly confident in saying that scum is pushing the Wiggles wagon currently, and VE is grasping at the most likely lynch according to common opinions to save his own hide right now. Didn't yet summarize what I find scummy though. | ||
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geript
10024 Posts
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DarthPunk
Australia10857 Posts
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sciberbia
United States1359 Posts
On March 21 2013 11:54 RyuSuzaku wrote: This line of thinking is really stupid. Assuming you are town, you will optimally lynch ANY confirmed or highly probable non-town player immediately. This is not a kingmaker scenario (in which case it would not matter who you lynched anyway). Our goal is to kill all non-town. Do not make assumptions about the setup. Not lynching VE despite thinking he is third party is simply antitown and goes against our wincondition. Our win condition is not to remove all non-town. It is to remove all threats to the town. On March 16 2013 15:24 DoctorHelvetica wrote: TO CLARIFY If you are green or blue your win condition is to remove all threats to the town, the same as it always is. You are the one making an assumption by assuming that the mirror is a threat to the town. I see no good evidence of this. For one thing, he does not seem to have KP. This is something that irks me about closed setups though. You can help your alignment to win by knowing what kinds of setups the host would be likely to make. I don't know anything about DrH but I see no in-thread evidence that the mirror is a threat to us. | ||
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Mocsta
Australia9388 Posts
SHEEP ME | ||
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Mocsta
Australia9388 Posts
On March 21 2013 12:03 sciberbia wrote: Our win condition is not to remove all non-town. It is to remove all threats to the town. You are the one making an assumption by assuming that the mirror is a threat to the town. I see no good evidence of this. For one thing, he does not seem to have KP. This is something that irks me about closed setups though. You can help your alignment to win by knowing what kinds of setups the host would be likely to make. I don't know anything about DrH but I see no in-thread evidence that the mirror is a threat to us. Dude.. seriously this is all conjecture and not worthy of discussion lets work with what we do know. goodkarma.. sheep me | ||
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Vivax
21972 Posts
Unvote Vote: GoodKarma | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31494 Posts
I don't suppose the fact that I believe Wriggles to be scummy means anything to anyone since VE has gotten on board and no one trusts him huh? On March 20 2013 12:22 WaveofShadow wrote: Let's see who's the next sheep that needs to be sheared? Wiggle? You're scum. This is the most activity and pushing you've done since the beginning of the game. Before this it's been all Boy oh BOY have YOU been useful. Annother one who just sits back, makes noncomittal reads and posts and waits for everyone else to do his scum work for him. And you have the AUDACITY to call ME out on this shit? Laughable. Just fucking laughable. He comes back once during the day to post this in response to me: On March 20 2013 12:55 Mr. Wiggles wrote: Hey everyone, look how mad I am! I must be town, because I'm sooooooooooooooo frustrated! I'm tired of people making cases on me based on me not sitting on my ass playing mafia all day to the exclusion of other things. You don't see me blowing up. Because stupid emotional appeals are shit play or scum trying to worm out of a lynch. ##Vote: WaveofShadow Making excuses for his lack of contribution, calling me out for emotionally appealing when he is essentially doing the EXACT SAME THING IN THE SAME POST. I honestly don't understand how no one is seeing this. Also how in BLUE FUCK did TPS slip under the radar again? On March 21 2013 09:31 ThePeashooter wrote: To elaborate on this, since it's probably relevant. He got my role as "Fool" and one fool has already flipped so that must of struck him as odd. I'm still on page 79 so I have a bit to catch up on. That was hours ago. I know I read him as town but FUCK. How in the hell are we ever going to win this game if we have townies like this guy?? | ||
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Vivax
21972 Posts
Maybe your claim was fake after all. | ||
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DarthPunk
Australia10857 Posts
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sciberbia
United States1359 Posts
On March 21 2013 12:07 WaveofShadow wrote: That was hours ago. I know I read him as town but FUCK. How in the hell are we ever going to win this game if we have townies like this guy?? You read him as town? | ||
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Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
Firstly, I will give an overview of Ace's play this game. So far, he has been: Promising reads on mafia, but not delivering any. Pushing a lynch on someone based on the assumption that they are third party, to the exclusion of everything else*. Talking about general role mechanics/fluff otherwise. When Ace joined the game, he made this post, indicating that he was excited to join the game and start scumhunting: On March 19 2013 11:59 Ace wrote: I just recently got my role guys, going to read the thread from Day 1 later and start casting votes ^_^ However, since then, he has yet to share a cogent read on who he thinks is mafia. The closest we get to a solid mafia read from Ace is him calling Mocsta scum, with a small amount of justification, but in the hours that follow before he posts again, he doesn't make any sort of push for his lynch or pressure him. As well, the only other read Ace provides is to call WoS town, but more solid reasoning doesn't come until directly after WoS has claimed DT and therefore put the brakes on his lynch. Since then, the only thing Ace has provided are more promises of finding mafia and pushing the lynch onto VE based on an emotional push that plays on town's fears while trying to stopper discussion on other lynch targets. He makes this post asking town to stop talking about other lynch targets and to lynch VE: On March 21 2013 01:52 Ace wrote: Stop talking about other people and stay focused on one person at a time. Jesus I don't want to have to teach people how to play my first game back in months. Just dealwith VE now. Re-read the log: He accepted to join a 3rd party that clearly doesn't have interest in helping the Town. Whether VE is still Townis irrelevant: whatever powers he gets or grants to the 3rd party isn't going to help us. Lynch him now. Treat him like a self aware Miller and just solve the problem immediately. He is then questioned about why we can't scumhunt and lynch VE at the same time, and this is how he responds: On March 21 2013 02:02 Ace wrote: We aren't going to stop scumhunting: that would be dumb. But leaving a claimed 3rd party player alive, when it empowers a player we have no idea about is just as dumb. I don't see how this is a difficult concept to understand. I guess you guys think leaving claimed Serial Killers alive is a good idea as long as they help the town. lulz. On March 21 2013 02:11 Ace wrote: zarepath, if VE is some kind of 3rd party Vet with more than 1 shot powers he can only die by lynch. I'm pretty sure the Town has some kind of night KP - we find a Scum today and vigi him. Both problems solved. So here he's saying that we should still scumhunt while we lynch VE. However, he has not done that. He has not shared any reads, and he has not provided any information that might help town find mafia to follow his own plan of shooting them tonight. There is no reason not to talk about other scum candidates during the day, even if the decision to lynch VE was unanimous, as it is still time that town can easily use to discuss cases and help formulate targets for a potential vig. Ace has not done this, but instead has continued tunneling on the VE wagon, without feeling the need to do anything else of value, despite posting throughout the day. Now, I will explain why I find the way Ace is pushing the VE lynch scummy: Firstly, he does not question The Mirror at all. Ace simply assumes that The Mirror is a third party recruiter and that VE has been recruited without taking any time to reflect on the situation, instead opting to sweep up town into a whirlwind of paranoia and confusion. Ace is very quick to spam the idea that VE is third party and that he has to be the lynch, as shown in these posts: + Show Spoiler + On March 21 2013 01:24 Ace wrote: lynch VE. now. On March 21 2013 01:38 Ace wrote: your right, it's not like a claimed Vet is a confirmed Town sure to get shot because he is running around popping Scum and didn't just say he accepted an invite from 3rd party. Stop being ridiculous. On March 21 2013 01:42 Ace wrote: I dont have one, and I don't think it's important right now.Lynch VE. On March 21 2013 01:47 Ace wrote: Who CARES if he is a Vet? He just posted logs of him joining a 3rd party and even said fuck the Town. This isn't hard. On March 21 2013 01:52 Ace wrote: Stop talking about other people and stay focused on one person at a time. Jesus I don't want to have to teach people how to play my first game back in months. Just dealwith VE now. Re-read the log: He accepted to join a 3rd party that clearly doesn't have interest in helping the Town. Whether VE is still Townis irrelevant: whatever powers he gets or grants to the 3rd party isn't going to help us. Lynch him now. Treat him like a self aware Miller and just solve the problem immediately. Within 30 minutes, Ace has posted 5 times reinforcing that VE is third-party and has to be lynched. In later posts, he continues to overplay the threat of VE that he has established, saying that he has extra powers, that he's unkillable, and that we'd have an unlynchable anti-town player at one point. These don't provide any additional reasons for why VE is scum, instead they only help scare town into thinking VE will become some unstoppable third party if he's left alive. Now, I find this disingenuous, because Ace did not take any time to consider any other possibilities, and he took everything said in the QT at face value. He does not question if The Mirror is actually a third party recruiter, he does not question if VE actually receives powers, he does not question anything at all. Instead, he takes the opportunity of the posted logs to derail the town into a witch hunt and single-mindedly beats in the idea that VE is now third party. Ace is a very good scum player. He has a keen sense of timing and is quick to seize opportunities presented to him in the thread. He played a very lurky style without doing much of anything until he saw his chance and jumped on VE and his QT logs. Since then he has pushed only this idea, which makes it look like he is actually doing something, while he has done nothing at all, and distracts town from hunting mafia. This is why I believe Ace is scum, and needs to hang. ##Vote: Ace Supporting Meta: + Show Spoiler + As scum, I find that Ace often likes to waste town's time talking about useless things, while doing only the minimal amount needed to look town. For example, in Sleeper Cell mafia, he got town to talk about a hypothetical situation which had no bearing on the game, wasting time on Day 1. In Wheel of Fortune mafia, he launched town into a discussion of role mechanics and possible set-up plans, distracting from scumhunting and effective play. I see the same sort of play here, with Ace pushing the town into considering third parties and possible recruiters instead of focusing on scum. Additionally, I would like to contrast his play here to his play in Mafia XLVII, which I hosted. In that game, Ace replaced into the game on Day 2, taking on the role of Vigilante. As well, to put things in perspective, at that time there were over 100 pages posted, and the town was in near complete chaos without any strong town leaders or direction. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=285690 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=285690&user=377 I was very interested to see Ace's town play that game, and while he was unfortunately modkilled, I think the distinction in play between this game and that one is pretty telling. In that game, Ace was aggressive and assertive, trying quickly to set the town back on track and get them focused on hunting scum. He wasn't scared to share reads and didn't waste time mincing words. To illustrate, I'll quote his first four posts: + Show Spoiler + On November 28 2011 08:29 Ace wrote: I will not even read my role PM and still win this game. First thing you guys should do is lynch Palmar and then lynch supersoft. On November 28 2011 08:34 Ace wrote: Also hier and that guy's name that starts with a v were making a lot of sense from my skims. You should protect them at all costs. Everyone else is food. I roll auto-town in every game I play. On November 28 2011 08:47 Ace wrote: youngminii isn't a bad player at all. In fact he had a decent amount of posts. Let's keep that in mind. In any game of Mafia with a day start everyone that is Town aligned has no information outside of themselves barring special circumstances. Also keep in mind that lynches are used to get rid of Scum. The Mayor gets his 1 time auto-lynch. Who should he lynch? Remember, the Mayor if Town doesn't know who is Scum. He is just as much in the dark as everyone else. So why would you lynch youngminii? The only justification is if he can be proven to be Scum. But it's a day start, hence Palmar doesn't have enough information to justify lynching an active player. Typically you want to lynch someone that is inactive or known to be useless. YM doesn't fit either of these criteria. The Mayor abused his power to get rid of someone who he didn't like. Which even if he was Town-aligned shows our Mayor isn't fit enough for office to think clearly and take dissenting opinions without making a bold move. But Palmar is a decent player (far, far, far below my level but still). So he should know better than to do that. Combine his expected behavior with his ridiculous actions = Scum Mayor. supersoft is terrible so you want to get rid of him asap. Easily sheeped into doing Scummy things. Very possible he is Scum. On November 28 2011 08:51 Ace wrote: supersoft is a typical sheep. However if he's easily pandering to Palmar and handroba to convince him that just reeks of Scum selling his vote (until it hits an ally). Now, contrast that to this game. While the circumstances are very similar, the difference in play seems night and day. The Ace in this game is not the same town Ace that I enjoyed watching play in XLVII. In this game, he is not worried about catching scum or providing direction to the town. He is only worried with wasting time and doing enough to make himself look good. Now, I'll talk a little bit about VE and his logs. Firstly, there's no reason to believe that The Mirror is actually a third party recruiter. All we have to support that idea, is The Mirror's word, which for obvious reasons we cannot trust. In fact, it makes sense to me that The Mirror is a scum mason. VE already outed BH in the thread as masoning him, and had outed The Mirror rather quickly as well. Scum would know this, so by masoning VE, they can nearly assure that he will report back to the thread with what he was told. This puts the idea in the thread that there's a third party recruiter, which would cause mass confusion for town. If town thinks there's a third party, they're going to start looking for third party players that don't exist. They're going to point out people as being third party, they're going to want to kill people for being third party, and later in the game when no third parties have flipped, town will get nervous and start looking for third party under the assumption that there's quite a lot of them by now and therefore they're a present threat that needs to be dealt with. It's a very good, slick, move for mafia, because it costs them nothing (the mason is anonymous), but it causes mass confusion and misdirection in the town from the time it is revealed until the end of the game. As well, I can't really see VE doing what he did if he was actually recruited. Firstly, why out himself or his new ally to the thread, especially at the same time? It doesn't make any sense. It's much better to keep is new faction a secret, so that they can gain strength. Posting it in the thread doesn't benefit him at all. Therefore, it's much more likely that VE was not recruited. So overall, I think The Mirror is very likely to be a mafia mason trying to spread confusion. | ||
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