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oo_Wonderful_oo
The land of freedom23126 Posts
On April 04 2014 21:14 The_Red_Viper wrote: Did i even say this has to be done? I actually don't like this solution either, but if you have a group stage where things like this can happen there is obviously something wrong with the system What kind of things happened? I guess, i missed something weird. | ||
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Dan HH
Romania9246 Posts
On April 04 2014 21:17 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote: I bet, playing sister teams is WAY HARDER than playing other teams. And not only because they know your playstyle and stuff from inside. And what the fuck is the difference between playing sister team in groupstage and in playoffs if you suspect them in anything? If you're not accusing them in matchfixing with irrefutable evidence, then just stop it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Germany_1–0_Austria_(1982_FIFA_World_Cup) First of all I didn't accuse S of matchfixing, I simply stated that there are inevitable suspicions and potential matchfixing within this format which can be easily avoided. Secondly, this isn't even the worst case scenario because one of them has to be eliminated. But in this format there will be cases where one team intentionally drawing or losing to their sister team would ensure that both will advance over a 3rd party. | ||
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MCMilo
United States365 Posts
You can't actively take sister teams from each organization and separate them evenly into each group. That's 12 teams from the 6 big organizations that have both of their teams in OGN out of a total 16 teams (CJ, SKT, Najin, KT, Samsung, IM all have both teams in this group stage). That's being heavily biased towards the BIG teams (all of the 1-4 seeds in this tournament minus KT B) and honestly, every season has to have their own flavor and mix up that gets people to watch the tournament, or it's going to get stale really fucking fast. Instead OGN aims to really excite the crowd with groups of death just like in Brood War to get people really hyped up for the POSSIBILITY of losing a big team from the group stage. This particular scenario may be bad for SKT as an organization, but it does get League of Legends fans as a whole riled up for what's coming up next and that will get even more viewers and more fans. | ||
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oo_Wonderful_oo
The land of freedom23126 Posts
On April 04 2014 21:22 Dan HH wrote: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Germany_1–0_Austria_(1982_FIFA_World_Cup) First of all I didn't accuse S of matchfixing, I simply stated that there are inevitable suspicions and potential matchfixing within this format which can be easily avoided. Secondly, this isn't even the worst case scenario because one of them has to be eliminated. But in this format there will be cases where one team intentionally drawing or losing to their sister team would ensure that both will advance over a 3rd party. Oh, you can then not go so far in the past and just use Euro-2004 in this case. I don't think SKT T1 care about suspicions, they have bigger problems like Code S Finals tomorrow, T1 K not going 18-0 perfect season and S losing to Prime. | ||
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bokchoi
Korea (South)9498 Posts
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Dan HH
Romania9246 Posts
On April 04 2014 21:29 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote: Oh, you can then not go so far in the past and just use Euro-2004 in this case. I don't think SKT T1 care about suspicions, they have bigger problems like Code S Finals tomorrow, T1 K not going 18-0 perfect season and S losing to Prime. I'm not making a point about SKT, any organization can find themselves in a situation like this. Imagine this scenario: it's the last matchday, Bigfile Miracle can no longer qualify and Bigfile Amor can qualify if they win 2-0 against their sister team but any other result would mean both are eliminated. You really want to let that rest solely on people's integrity? Are you an anarchist? We wouldn't need any laws at all if we could trust people to be fair in situations where being unfair is the more gainful option As for the people saying that group protection is difficult or unfair, have you ever seen a UCL draw? It's a very simple concept. The seeding stays exactly the same except for example instead of getting SKT S in group A it would have been any of the other 3 teams from the same seeding tier as S. | ||
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oo_Wonderful_oo
The land of freedom23126 Posts
Rito pls. On April 04 2014 21:41 Dan HH wrote: I'm not making a point about SKT, any organization can find themselves in a situation like this. Imagine this scenario: it's the last matchday, Bigfile Miracle can no longer qualify and Bigfile Amor can qualify if they win 2-0 against their sister team but any other result would mean both are eliminated. You really want to let that rest solely on people's integrity? Are you an anarchist? We wouldn't need any laws at all if we could trust people to be fair in situations where being unfair is the more gainful option As for the people saying that group protection is difficult or unfair, have you ever seen a UCL draw? It's a very simple concept. The seeding stays exactly the same except for example instead of getting SKT S in group A it would have been any of the other 3 teams from the same seeding tier as S. I trust to every human who i know and like. And OGN is SAME TO EVERYONE. It was in BW, it is in SC2, same stuff was happening forever, is happening now and will happen later. Noone will change this draw. | ||
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baekgom84
Korea (South)375 Posts
On April 04 2014 21:27 MCMilo wrote: When two teams from a big organization are on the big stage like OGN, there's always bound to be groups that will contain sister teams, particularly with the group selection they did this time, which is very similar to how OSL did their group selection in Brood War. The reason there are going to always be these odd situations is that OGN just has to be fair to every team going into their tournament. You can't actively take sister teams from each organization and separate them evenly into each group. That's 12 teams from the 6 big organizations that have both of their teams in OGN out of a total 16 teams (CJ, SKT, Najin, KT, Samsung, IM all have both teams in this group stage). That's being heavily biased towards the BIG teams (all of the 1-4 seeds in this tournament minus KT B) and honestly, every season has to have their own flavor and mix up that gets people to watch the tournament, or it's going to get stale really fucking fast. Instead OGN aims to really excite the crowd with groups of death just like in Brood War to get people really hyped up for the POSSIBILITY of losing a big team from the group stage. This particular scenario may be bad for SKT as an organization, but it does get League of Legends fans as a whole riled up for what's coming up next and that will get even more viewers and more fans. I see where you're coming from but at this stage I don't think it's unreasonable for OGN to bend the rules a bit to accommodate the sister team system. Even so-called 'small' teams like Prime or Xenics have sister teams, and if we're being honest, amateur teams don't stand a chance (and if they are any good they will quickly be snapped up by bigger teams). As for your second point, I think LoL in Korea is competitive enough that you can easily have a group of death or two without even including sister teams. | ||
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winthrop
Hong Kong956 Posts
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baekgom84
Korea (South)375 Posts
On April 04 2014 21:41 Dan HH wrote: I'm not making a point about SKT, any organization can find themselves in a situation like this. Imagine this scenario: it's the last matchday, Bigfile Miracle can no longer qualify and Bigfile Amor can qualify if they win 2-0 against their sister team but any other result would mean both are eliminated. You really want to let that rest solely on people's integrity? Are you an anarchist? We wouldn't need any laws at all if we could trust people to be fair in situations where being unfair is the more gainful option As for the people saying that group protection is difficult or unfair, have you ever seen a UCL draw? It's a very simple concept. The seeding stays exactly the same except for example instead of getting SKT S in group A it would have been any of the other 3 teams from the same seeding tier as S. Yeah, this is exactly the point. A competition should be designed so as to eliminate (as much as possible) situations where a team stands to gain an advantage by losing. E-sports rightfully borrow a lot of their organisational structures from professional sports, but I can't think of any existing sport which has anything like OGN's sister teams. The closest thing I can think of off the top of my head are the Real Madrid and Barcelona reserve teams who play in the second division in the Spanish league, but are forbidden from playing in the same league as their A teams. | ||
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-Zoda-
France3578 Posts
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Redox
Germany24794 Posts
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Nos-
Canada12016 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35174 Posts
On April 04 2014 21:17 supernovamaniac wrote: If there is a problem, its within the organizations having multiple teams. The Champions system was made so that everyone has equal chance, and everyone is treated the same. If they keep sister teams out, that is already catering to those organizations that has multiple teams in individual tournament. If this was a problem, BW and SC2 tournaments should've kept players from same team away from each other instead of having stupid group selections. Which also gives some players tons of advantage, especially for players within same team because they are not stressed about the fact that they have to teamkill during group stages. And yet there was grumblings of match fixing between Fantasy and Bisu(shocker, both SKT players.) | ||
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Azelja
Japan762 Posts
On April 04 2014 22:06 Nos- wrote: Man Prime must be feeling terrible, they play like a couple of actual good games, and everyone thinks it's just SKT throwing LOL. Yea let's risk the entire sponsor and company's reputation so we can get K out of groups, makes sense. No man, SKT is shady anyway, I always knew that they would pull out dirty stuff like this... amirite? ... Wow, I can't believe some people here, accusing fucking SKT T1 of matchfixing, holy shit. | ||
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Fusilero
United Kingdom50293 Posts
Ozone, what pls what is that even supposed to be JUNGLE ZED, AWWW YISS | ||
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Gahlo
United States35174 Posts
On April 04 2014 22:10 Azelja wrote: No man, SKT is shady anyway, I always knew that they would pull out dirty stuff like this... amirite? ... Wow, I can't believe some people here, accusing fucking SKT T1 of matchfixing, holy shit. Wow, I can't believe some people here, accusing the bonjwa sAviOr of matchfixing, holy shit. | ||
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
come on guys skt is like the most team oriented organization. skts knew they had to pay back the favor but i do feel really really really bad for them.that this had to happen. | ||
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Azelja
Japan762 Posts
On April 04 2014 22:11 Gahlo wrote: Wow, I can't believe some people here, accusing the bonjwa sAviOr of matchfixing, holy shit. Yeah, no. Especially after the sAviOr matchfixing scandal and even the shit with ahq Korea being fresh on everyone's mind, there is like a 0% chance that teams backed by SK Telecom would pull a stunt like that. No fucking way in hell. | ||
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Fusilero
United Kingdom50293 Posts
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