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On October 29 2025 22:52 Jankisa wrote:
The real fun part is that no one involved (except RvB who just elected to quote an Economist article) really wrote anything specific to refute what I wrote, and you guys are just tapping yourselves on the back because your opinion is clearly correct.
I have reservations engaging with you, after you compared me to a holocaust denier, while at the same time saying that you don't want to contend with my arguments that subsequently led you to equal me to a holocaust denier. But as I gave others here a 2nd chance too, I might as well give it a shot, so:
Do you mean the comparison of Uyghurs and the situation in Gaza? Or which topic do you talk about in this paragraph?
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I don't have a desire to really litigate that topic, I stated my case, at every step of the way I stated this is a personal preference based on my read on how each of these peoples live, if you want, you can go back and point out if I made factual mistakes.
The parallel between denying holocaust and denying the genocide, ethnic cleansing and apartheid of Palestinians to me stands, if that makes you squeamish, good, it should. If me qualifying your arguments as such makes you not want to engage, that is also OK, no hard feelings, at least not from my side.
I don't want to engage with the other guy because he posts in extreme bad faith.
I don't think you are as bad as he is, but you do, also, love to post exclusively in defense of things that are completely indefensible to me and then say "well, I don't agree with everything they do and if there are war crimes they should be prosecuted" and then pretend like this is immunizes you from being associated with the horrible shit you are defending.
That's the main difference, I don't defend and never have what China is doing, I stated that every step of the way, I just think that when compared to what Israelis are doing I'd rather be subject to the former, it's pretty simple.
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If posting in bad faith means asking a direct question, guilty as charged. But it looks like you prefer to write novelas about how you are victim, rather than stand behind your point, or simply say. “My bad I was not thinking”. Of course you’ve missed that window and now you are just ever so slightly above a genocide denier,.
Here is the “bad faith” question, just in case you forgot or happened to grow a spine.
If someone was to be posting long posts about how the Gazans don't have it that bad compared to how the Tutsi in Rwanda, what would you think that persons intentions were? What value would it bring and what would it accomplish?
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On November 01 2025 01:13 Billyboy wrote:
If posting in bad faith means asking a direct question, guilty as charged. But it looks like you prefer to write novelas about how you are victim, rather than stand behind your point, or simply say. “My bad I was not thinking”. Of course you’ve missed that window and now you are just ever so slightly above a genocide denier,.
Here is the “bad faith” question, just in case you forgot or happened to grow a spine.
If someone was to be posting long posts about how the Gazans don't have it that bad compared to how the Tutsi in Rwanda, what would you think that persons intentions were? What value would it bring and what would it accomplish?
To me, that would be rather useless and off-topic. The only value in stating those other places in the world is to question what drives the western lefties. Gazans get tons of support while all the others get near zero, that means there is more going on than just general sympathy for basic human rights. Is it because it's israel, or by extension, American Jews? Is it right wing US backing them? Has the situation become symbolic for western (imperialist) values in general?
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On October 31 2025 22:36 Jankisa wrote:
I don't have a desire to really litigate that topic, I stated my case, at every step of the way I stated this is a personal preference based on my read on how each of these peoples live, if you want, you can go back and point out if I made factual mistakes.
The parallel between denying holocaust and denying the genocide, ethnic cleansing and apartheid of Palestinians to me stands, if that makes you squeamish, good, it should. If me qualifying your arguments as such makes you not want to engage, that is also OK, no hard feelings, at least not from my side.
I don't want to engage with the other guy because he posts in extreme bad faith.
I don't think you are as bad as he is, but you do, also, love to post exclusively in defense of things that are completely indefensible to me and then say "well, I don't agree with everything they do and if there are war crimes they should be prosecuted" and then pretend like this is immunizes you from being associated with the horrible shit you are defending.
That's the main difference, I don't defend and never have what China is doing, I stated that every step of the way, I just think that when compared to what Israelis are doing I'd rather be subject to the former, it's pretty simple.
You say that the parallel stands, but you don’t explain why or how. That doesn’t make me squeamish - it makes your stance seem fragile. I’m perfectly willing to engage on the factual level, because the data I’ve presented doesn’t indicate a genocide in Gaza, in my opinion.
It seems less like you want to debate the evidence and more like you want to shame me into accepting your moral framing by implying that disagreement in this situation equals immorality. That approach doesn’t hold up; moral outrage isn’t a substitute for argument.
And just to clarify again: I’m not “defending” anything. I’m describing what I see - a horrific war where war crimes should absolutely be prosecuted. But that still doesn’t meet the threshold of dolus specialis, which, in my understanding, is required for the term “genocide.”
As for the Uyghur comparison: that’s your perspective, and I’ll grant you the honesty that you would rather live in China than in Gaza.
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On November 01 2025 12:42 aseq wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2025 01:13 Billyboy wrote:
If posting in bad faith means asking a direct question, guilty as charged. But it looks like you prefer to write novelas about how you are victim, rather than stand behind your point, or simply say. “My bad I was not thinking”. Of course you’ve missed that window and now you are just ever so slightly above a genocide denier,.
Here is the “bad faith” question, just in case you forgot or happened to grow a spine.
If someone was to be posting long posts about how the Gazans don't have it that bad compared to how the Tutsi in Rwanda, what would you think that persons intentions were? What value would it bring and what would it accomplish? To me, that would be rather useless and off-topic. The only value in stating those other places in the world is to question what drives the western lefties. Gazans get tons of support while all the others get near zero, that means there is more going on than just general sympathy for basic human rights. Is it because it's israel, or by extension, American Jews? Is it right wing US backing them? Has the situation become symbolic for western (imperialist) values in general?
It would be really depressing for the "no jews no news" thing to be true. My best alternative explanation for the hyperfocus on Israel is that it's 2 Abrahamic religions fighting each other, in the holy land of the bible, with Israel being an extension of the West.
I guess you just have to just ask yourself if the same amount of focus were given if Israel were majority Christian. I can't say I know the answer.
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Northern Ireland26798 Posts
On November 01 2025 22:10 mindjames wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2025 12:42 aseq wrote:On November 01 2025 01:13 Billyboy wrote:
If posting in bad faith means asking a direct question, guilty as charged. But it looks like you prefer to write novelas about how you are victim, rather than stand behind your point, or simply say. “My bad I was not thinking”. Of course you’ve missed that window and now you are just ever so slightly above a genocide denier,.
Here is the “bad faith” question, just in case you forgot or happened to grow a spine.
If someone was to be posting long posts about how the Gazans don't have it that bad compared to how the Tutsi in Rwanda, what would you think that persons intentions were? What value would it bring and what would it accomplish? To me, that would be rather useless and off-topic. The only value in stating those other places in the world is to question what drives the western lefties. Gazans get tons of support while all the others get near zero, that means there is more going on than just general sympathy for basic human rights. Is it because it's israel, or by extension, American Jews? Is it right wing US backing them? Has the situation become symbolic for western (imperialist) values in general? It would be really depressing for the "no jews no news" thing to be true. My best alternative explanation for the hyperfocus on Israel is that it's 2 Abrahamic religions fighting each other, in the holy land of the bible, with Israel being an extension of the West. I guess you just have to just ask yourself if the same amount of focus were given if Israel were majority Christian. I can't say I know the answer.
I mean who knows? I think part of it definitely is that it has the US basically unequivocally backing it, and other Western governments to a lesser degree.
It’s also a pretty atypical state in how it was formed, with a pretty understandable rationale regardless of the subsequent mechanics and specifics. I imagine it somewhat sticks in the craw of many that a nation basically founded in recognition of a people persecuted in the worst ways imaginable, are themselves dicks when they’re in the ascendancy.
I think that’s considerably less of an issue if Israel wasn’t currently governed by hawks who frequently say awful things, or actively push awful policies.
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It's definitely at least partially the fact that anitsemitism was mainstream for a thousand years in the west up until just recently and is very mainstream in the middle east. You have two billions people who come from a culture which used Jews as a villain. Combine that with a Western left tendency to see things through a tribal lense and Jews take on the white-brown victimizer-victim dichotomy. It's seen as a stand in for white supremacy while also carrying all the baggage of antisemitism which is vast and only for about sixty years suppressed in public culture
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Or, you know, maybe it's none of those things
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United States43989 Posts
I think that people who think the Israel criticism is antisemitic generally also recognize that Israel is also doing a lot of things that are indefensible. That makes the hypothesis hard to test. Essentially the claim is that Israel somewhat deserves the criticism but in a hypothetical world in which Israel didn’t then it’d still be singled out and so although the critics are right they’re also right for the wrong reasons and somehow Nazis.
I think the only reasonable way forward is for Israel to stop doing the indefensible things and see if the criticism stops. Go back to the partition borders. Share Jerusalem. If the criticism continues then yeah, the people insisting that it was antisemitism all along were proven right.
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On November 02 2025 02:13 KwarK wrote:
I think that people who think the Israel criticism is antisemitic generally also recognize that Israel is also doing a lot of things that are indefensible. That makes the hypothesis hard to test. Essentially the claim is that Israel somewhat deserves the criticism but in a hypothetical world in which Israel didn’t then it’d still be singled out and so although the critics are right they’re also right for the wrong reasons and somehow Nazis.
I think the only reasonable way forward is for Israel to stop doing the indefensible things and see if the criticism stops. Go back to the partition borders. Share Jerusalem. If the criticism continues then yeah, the people insisting that it was antisemitism all along were proven right.
To the PARTITION borders? Not even '67, straight up partition plan?
That is so interesting to me. Does that mean in your eyes Palestinians should continually fight (life toll be damned) until they literally get the maximal offer that ever was on the table, and that their leadership rejected?
Wait, it's not even that, you're saying Israel should unilaterally do this. Is that the case?
Also, does that mean that part of the "indefensible things" Israel does includes holding any territory beyond '47 plan lines?
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United States43989 Posts
I’m just proposing an experiment here, not a solution. If Israel tried being extra nice and still got singled out then that’d be really good evidence for the antisemitism theory. At present it is like an African American gentleman who was caught on video robbing the gas station insisting that the justice system is racist. It is possible that the justice system is racist and that it would imprison him even if he did nothing wrong. But it is difficult to test because in this instance he did something wrong.
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On November 02 2025 05:07 KwarK wrote:
I’m just proposing an experiment here, not a solution. If Israel tried being extra nice and still got singled out then that’d be really good evidence for the antisemitism theory. At present it is like an African American gentleman who was caught on video robbing the gas station insisting that the justice system is racist. It is possible that the justice system is racist and that it would imprison him even if he did nothing wrong. But it is difficult to test because in this instance he did something wrong.
Well I agree with that, but your example for an experiment was pretty out there, you have to admit. I'll assume it's a thought experiment and not actually something you expect Israel to try? Surely you understand how extreme of a move that would be as a "let's try and see what happens".
And speaking about the broader topic, I don't think anyone is saying criticizing Israel is wholly antisemitic. What we're trying to answer is where the seemingly disproportional worldwide focus on I/P comes from (especially when you look at how coldly the world responds to things like Sudan, or back in the day Syria/Yemen). I don't have the answer to that but I do think it's exacerbated by antisemitism at least. To what extent is again a hard question.
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On November 01 2025 22:10 mindjames wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2025 12:42 aseq wrote:On November 01 2025 01:13 Billyboy wrote:
If posting in bad faith means asking a direct question, guilty as charged. But it looks like you prefer to write novelas about how you are victim, rather than stand behind your point, or simply say. “My bad I was not thinking”. Of course you’ve missed that window and now you are just ever so slightly above a genocide denier,.
Here is the “bad faith” question, just in case you forgot or happened to grow a spine.
If someone was to be posting long posts about how the Gazans don't have it that bad compared to how the Tutsi in Rwanda, what would you think that persons intentions were? What value would it bring and what would it accomplish? To me, that would be rather useless and off-topic. The only value in stating those other places in the world is to question what drives the western lefties. Gazans get tons of support while all the others get near zero, that means there is more going on than just general sympathy for basic human rights. Is it because it's israel, or by extension, American Jews? Is it right wing US backing them? Has the situation become symbolic for western (imperialist) values in general? It would be really depressing for the "no jews no news" thing to be true. My best alternative explanation for the hyperfocus on Israel is that it's 2 Abrahamic religions fighting each other, in the holy land of the bible, with Israel being an extension of the West. I guess you just have to just ask yourself if the same amount of focus were given if Israel were majority Christian. I can't say I know the answer.
I think it would be mostly similar from people who identify as left and very different (much more Israel support) from those who identify as the right.
If Netanyahu was a Jewish “socialist “ but did the exact same thing, I suspect the right would hate them completely and the left support would look the right currently looks, a fairly mixed bag.
On November 02 2025 02:13 KwarK wrote:
I think that people who think the Israel criticism is antisemitic generally also recognize that Israel is also doing a lot of things that are indefensible. That makes the hypothesis hard to test. Essentially the claim is that Israel somewhat deserves the criticism but in a hypothetical world in which Israel didn’t then it’d still be singled out and so although the critics are right they’re also right for the wrong reasons and somehow Nazis.
I think the only reasonable way forward is for Israel to stop doing the indefensible things and see if the criticism stops. Go back to the partition borders. Share Jerusalem. If the criticism continues then yeah, the people insisting that it was antisemitism all along were proven right.
It would be an interesting experiment, my guess is much of the hate would get turned down or go away. The Anti-Zionists would be about the same since a Jewish country would still exist.
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On November 02 2025 05:07 KwarK wrote:
I’m just proposing an experiment here, not a solution. If Israel tried being extra nice and still got singled out then that’d be really good evidence for the antisemitism theory. At present it is like an African American gentleman who was caught on video robbing the gas station insisting that the justice system is racist. It is possible that the justice system is racist and that it would imprison him even if he did nothing wrong. But it is difficult to test because in this instance he did something wrong. Israelis have been encircled by a terrorist network regime for like...what, 50 years? Theres been plenty of attempts to act nice, plenty of attempts at negotiation -- how do you realistically expect them to play nice when, for instance: northern israel had 500k people evacuated from it for over a year due to hezbollah shelling? The niceness of retreating hundreds of thousands of your own people while a genocidal terrorist organization threatened to kill everyone went no where. Decapitating their leadership did -- and the reaction was horror and accusations of war crimes by the western left. Israel playing nice is them getting shot at every day of the week, forever.
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Norway28797 Posts
My experience is that the genuine anti-semitism I've seen comes from a) nazis and b) muslims, while most criticism of Israel that I encounter comes from a) leftists and b) muslims. The nazis don't like palestine any more than they like Israel, so they hate jews without caring about the conflict. The leftists dislike/hate Israel without disliking/hating jews, and among muslims, a large majority have a negative view of Israel and there, antisemitism is fairly common as well.
*this isn't to say that belief in some tropes or whatnot is entirely absent among leftists, but 'disliking someone for being part of a particular ethnic group' isn't really compatible with being a leftist.
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On November 02 2025 08:21 Liquid`Drone wrote:
My experience is that the genuine anti-semitism I've seen comes from a) nazis and b) muslims, while most criticism of Israel that I encounter comes from a) leftists and b) muslims. The nazis don't like palestine any more than they like Israel, so they hate jews without caring about the conflict. The leftists dislike/hate Israel without disliking/hating jews, and among muslims, a large majority have a negative view of Israel and there, antisemitism is fairly common as well.
*this isn't to say that belief in some tropes or whatnot is entirely absent among leftists, but 'disliking someone for being part of a particular ethnic group' isn't really compatible with being a leftist.
I would say there is definitely a worrying and growing trend of leftists who are exhibiting antisemitism. I'm using leftist in the more 'online' sense, meaning young social justice types, and people who call themselves socialists, communists, anti-capitalists, tankies, Marxist-Leninsts and so on (as opposed to what Americans call Liberals / Democrats).
And yeah, it is incompatible with being a leftist, which makes it that much more baffling. People like Hasan Piker will pose as the world's biggest feminist and then on the next breath deny and minimize instances of sexual violence on Oct 7th. One example of many, unfortunately.
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United States43989 Posts
On November 02 2025 08:11 Ze'ev wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2025 05:07 KwarK wrote:
I’m just proposing an experiment here, not a solution. If Israel tried being extra nice and still got singled out then that’d be really good evidence for the antisemitism theory. At present it is like an African American gentleman who was caught on video robbing the gas station insisting that the justice system is racist. It is possible that the justice system is racist and that it would imprison him even if he did nothing wrong. But it is difficult to test because in this instance he did something wrong. Israelis have been encircled by a terrorist network regime for like...what, 50 years? Theres been plenty of attempts to act nice, plenty of attempts at negotiation -- how do you realistically expect them to play nice when, for instance: northern israel had 500k people evacuated from it for over a year due to hezbollah shelling? The niceness of retreating hundreds of thousands of your own people while a genocidal terrorist organization threatened to kill everyone went no where. Decapitating their leadership did -- and the reaction was horror and accusations of war crimes by the western left. Israel playing nice is them getting shot at every day of the week, forever.
Then you’ll never be able to test whether Israel has critics because they deserve it or because of antisemitism.
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You could compare the shirt talk about the US on sept 11 and 12 compared to what was about Israel Oct 7 and 8.
Imperfect, but might tell you something if there is dramatic differences.
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That is actually an interesting comparison. My first gut reaction was that Israel's case pales in comparison. That forced me to think on why and it basically boils down to two things for me. First that Israel is a small/medium power and any outcome from this is likely small/medium in size (seems correct) and the US case was a major power and would have major consequences (we still see them in all airports). Secondly that this was another incident in a long list when the planes in the US was a big outlier in irregular warfare and thus more noteworthy.
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EPT
