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On November 02 2025 10:16 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2025 08:11 Ze'ev wrote:On November 02 2025 05:07 KwarK wrote:
I’m just proposing an experiment here, not a solution. If Israel tried being extra nice and still got singled out then that’d be really good evidence for the antisemitism theory. At present it is like an African American gentleman who was caught on video robbing the gas station insisting that the justice system is racist. It is possible that the justice system is racist and that it would imprison him even if he did nothing wrong. But it is difficult to test because in this instance he did something wrong. Israelis have been encircled by a terrorist network regime for like...what, 50 years? Theres been plenty of attempts to act nice, plenty of attempts at negotiation -- how do you realistically expect them to play nice when, for instance: northern israel had 500k people evacuated from it for over a year due to hezbollah shelling? The niceness of retreating hundreds of thousands of your own people while a genocidal terrorist organization threatened to kill everyone went no where. Decapitating their leadership did -- and the reaction was horror and accusations of war crimes by the western left. Israel playing nice is them getting shot at every day of the week, forever. Then you’ll never be able to test whether Israel has critics because they deserve it or because of antisemitism.
I mean, if all that you're proposing is a thought experiment, then why not go with the real gold standard way of testing things, which isn't a pre-post test, but an A/B-test. I reckon it'd be a good use of the infinity stones to snap half the world population into believing October 7 and the atrocities since then never happened, and yes, I know we could also use the infinity stones to make it so it actually never happened and then snap half of the world population into believing it did, for science! For the purpose of measuring the impact of the war, the two are functionally equivalent, so pick one, you monster. Anyway, with that done, you can simply measure antisemitism in both groups and compare!
Imho if you actually want to research this rather than "thought experiment" it, a comparative studu seems the better and more realistic approach to try to evaluate whether there's an elevated sense of anti-Semitism compared to general xenophobia, and what impact the war had on it. We could try to rule out political support for either side by looking at neutral countries, e.g. Brazil, Nigeria or Mongolia and evaluating whether antisemitism is more prevalent than hatred toward other out-groups (e.g. whites, Muslims, Chinese). Then similarly measure whether reading news reports about Israeli atrocities against Palestinians increases antisemitic sentiment more or less strongly than reading reports about Chinese atrocities Uyghurs does to their anti-Asian sentiment. That's probably the closest analogy I can think of. Myanmar's treatment of the Rohingya is probably more similar to what is happening in Gaza, but Myanmar isn't an ethnostate, whereas China is really trying to project an image of Han superiority over the rest of their nation. I can't think of other contemporary conflicts that fit the bill. There's plenty of violence all over Africa, and a lot of it along tribal lines. But it'd require greater intimacy with the regions to feel, for instance, anti-Amhara sentiment over the massacre of the Tigray. Most people outside Ethiopia would probably struggle to distinguish the two, but maybe racism against blacks increases? Nevertheless, not as clear-cut as Jews/Buddhists vs Muslims along religious lines, even if the ethnicities get all blurred when you take a closer look.
I'm half expecting this type of research is already done. And I wouldn't really be surprised if Jews are the victims of prejudice more frequently than other minorities. Correspondingly, it's more common for anti-Semitism to spike up when Israel does bad shit than for other isms to spike when some other country does bad shit. But I am personally unaware of such comparative research, and I also wouldn't be surprised if there was no measurable effect and people just really like to scapegoat.
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On November 02 2025 17:36 Yurie wrote:
That is actually an interesting comparison. My first gut reaction was that Israel's case pales in comparison. That forced me to think on why and it basically boils down to two things for me. First that Israel is a small/medium power and any outcome from this is likely small/medium in size (seems correct) and the US case was a major power and would have major consequences (we still see them in all airports). Secondly that this was another incident in a long list when the planes in the US was a big outlier in irregular warfare and thus more noteworthy.
Yeah, there are more things that make it different than the same, but the best I could think of. I guess the air port equivalent would be the Israelis demanding a larger buffer zone near their fences. That is not going to take off across the rest of the world the way the air port thing is because everyone anywhere can be attacked by plane.
I think online response by people (but even the internet is different) and government responses would be interesting to see.
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United States43197 Posts
On November 02 2025 17:49 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2025 10:16 KwarK wrote:On November 02 2025 08:11 Ze'ev wrote:On November 02 2025 05:07 KwarK wrote:
I’m just proposing an experiment here, not a solution. If Israel tried being extra nice and still got singled out then that’d be really good evidence for the antisemitism theory. At present it is like an African American gentleman who was caught on video robbing the gas station insisting that the justice system is racist. It is possible that the justice system is racist and that it would imprison him even if he did nothing wrong. But it is difficult to test because in this instance he did something wrong. Israelis have been encircled by a terrorist network regime for like...what, 50 years? Theres been plenty of attempts to act nice, plenty of attempts at negotiation -- how do you realistically expect them to play nice when, for instance: northern israel had 500k people evacuated from it for over a year due to hezbollah shelling? The niceness of retreating hundreds of thousands of your own people while a genocidal terrorist organization threatened to kill everyone went no where. Decapitating their leadership did -- and the reaction was horror and accusations of war crimes by the western left. Israel playing nice is them getting shot at every day of the week, forever. Then you’ll never be able to test whether Israel has critics because they deserve it or because of antisemitism. I mean, if all that you're proposing is a thought experiment, then why not go with the real gold standard way of testing things, which isn't a pre-post test, but an A/B-test. I reckon it'd be a good use of the infinity stones to snap half the world population into believing October 7 and the atrocities since then never happened, and yes, I know we could also use the infinity stones to make it so it actually never happened and then snap half of the world population into believing it did, for science! For the purpose of measuring the impact of the war, the two are functionally equivalent, so pick one, you monster. Anyway, with that done, you can simply measure antisemitism in both groups and compare!
Sure, why not. My point is to illustrate the absurdity of the whole argument.
You're mad at Israel not because they did the thing but because you're antisemitic. But they did do the thing. Yes, but that's not why you're mad. I feel like it is why I'm mad. No it's not. Well have you considered not doing the thing. No.
If the people claiming antisemitism win the argument then that doesn't mean the critics of Israel are wrong, it means they're right for the wrong reasons. If they're not actually willing to do what it takes to make the criticism unjustified then what does any of it matter.
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I feel like the antisemitism/criticism conversation is really uninteresting if you don't want to get into the details. Obviously if your criticism is that Jews still inhabit the Levant, I will doubt your motives. Conversely if you think Israel is not doing enough to curb settler violence, I will have no reason to think you're an antisemite.
Let's not pretend that pro-Israel sentiment is merely the rejection of any and all criticism on the basis of antisemitism. At least, no one on this forum behaves in this way (that I've seen).
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On November 02 2025 10:16 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2025 08:11 Ze'ev wrote:On November 02 2025 05:07 KwarK wrote:
I’m just proposing an experiment here, not a solution. If Israel tried being extra nice and still got singled out then that’d be really good evidence for the antisemitism theory. At present it is like an African American gentleman who was caught on video robbing the gas station insisting that the justice system is racist. It is possible that the justice system is racist and that it would imprison him even if he did nothing wrong. But it is difficult to test because in this instance he did something wrong. Israelis have been encircled by a terrorist network regime for like...what, 50 years? Theres been plenty of attempts to act nice, plenty of attempts at negotiation -- how do you realistically expect them to play nice when, for instance: northern israel had 500k people evacuated from it for over a year due to hezbollah shelling? The niceness of retreating hundreds of thousands of your own people while a genocidal terrorist organization threatened to kill everyone went no where. Decapitating their leadership did -- and the reaction was horror and accusations of war crimes by the western left. Israel playing nice is them getting shot at every day of the week, forever. Then you’ll never be able to test whether Israel has critics because they deserve it or because of antisemitism. Context and proportionality matter. We can look at behaviour, patterns of framing, ideological associations, and how old antisemitic ideas slip into modern rhetoric to understand who is arguing in bad faith and to what degree. Intersectional analysis helps too, because it reminds us that cultural and racial bias exists even among people who see themselves as progressive. There is also a real difference between someone with implicit bias and someone who is a dogmatic antisemite. It is not a yes or no question of whether something is antisemitic, but rather what kind and how deeply it runs. We will never have perfect certainty about people’s motives, but we dont need a controlled experiment to make moral or political judgments. We can still study language, tone, and consistency and reach reasonable conclusions about intent.
Good leftists study how power shapes culture. Bad leftists think culture doesn’t matter and focus only on material conditions. The thing is, both Western and Middle Eastern societies have had the power to decide who looks like the villain for a very long time, and those stories still shape how we see this conflict. Our power shapes our perspective. We like to imagine we’re looking at things objectively, but we’re still carrying old myths about Jews, about power, about who’s allowed to fight back. Groups like Hamas and Hezbollah have their own racial and religious hatreds baked in, and we have our own biases that make us blind to them. The blunt kind of leftism says “just meet their demands and it’ll stop.” But Israel’s tried that. It keeps happening because they’re hated as Jews, not because they haven’t been kind enough. And a lot of people in our world still see this through the same cultural lens, not out of malice, just inheritance.
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There are dozens of pro-Israeli arguments I agree with but whenever I see someone try to bring up antisemitism in the context of Palestine I just roll my eyes and stop taking them seriously. It stopped being a legitimate argument in the Western world outside of Israel and parts of the US like 15 years ago. It makes sense to keep using this argument if you want to keep your dudes from those areas engaged but you have to realize it's going to cause the remnants of goodwill you could find elsewhere evaporate rapidly.
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You’re literally Polish, man. Maybe take a breath before declaring antisemitism a dead issue in the West.
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On November 03 2025 07:55 Sent. wrote:
There are dozens of pro-Israeli arguments I agree with but whenever I see someone try to bring up antisemitism in the context of Palestine I just roll my eyes and stop taking them seriously. It stopped being a legitimate argument in the Western world outside of Israel and parts of the US like 15 years ago. It makes sense to keep using this argument if you want to keep your dudes from those areas engaged but you have to realize it's going to cause the remnants of goodwill you could find elsewhere evaporate rapidly.
I mean, it's not even an argument. If you say "Israel did X and that is bad", and someone says "you're just an antisemite", they're not really engaging with your argument, they're simply writing you off - which may or may not be justified depending on your statement.
If someone says "Muslim immigrants are making our streets unsafe", and you reply "you're just an islamophobe", because you don't want to rehash the same tired argument, that's you writing that person off and not engaging. And in my opinion that'd be perfectly reasonable.
Without knowing what your actual stances are on the I/P conflict, your comment on antisemitism is rather worthless.
Are there Israelis and Jews who use the antisemitism bit as reflexive self-defense? Yeah. Just like any minority ever. That does not mean there is absolutely no antisemitism at play in the greater context of the conflict and the media around it. I don't know if that's your claim, but it'd be a pretty stupid one.
EDIT: @Ze'ev I don't think it's necessary to get personal.
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Northern Ireland25964 Posts
On November 03 2025 07:55 Sent. wrote:
There are dozens of pro-Israeli arguments I agree with but whenever I see someone try to bring up antisemitism in the context of Palestine I just roll my eyes and stop taking them seriously. It stopped being a legitimate argument in the Western world outside of Israel and parts of the US like 15 years ago. It makes sense to keep using this argument if you want to keep your dudes from those areas engaged but you have to realize it's going to cause the remnants of goodwill you could find elsewhere evaporate rapidly.
It tends to lead to frustration. Well, for me anyway.
Partly because depending on who’s bringing the charge, it can feel there’s almost nothing one can do to shake it off.
Not every observation is an invocation of an anti-Semitic trope.
It can also be a hard line to straddle, as people no doubt are sick of me saying, I think the spectre of anti-Semitism is growing in prevalence and prominence, that is of course concerning. On the flipside I see the charge invoked way too liberally, often towards people who aren’t actually the ones with such attitudes.
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Northern Ireland25964 Posts
On November 03 2025 07:34 Ze'ev wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2025 10:16 KwarK wrote:On November 02 2025 08:11 Ze'ev wrote:On November 02 2025 05:07 KwarK wrote:
I’m just proposing an experiment here, not a solution. If Israel tried being extra nice and still got singled out then that’d be really good evidence for the antisemitism theory. At present it is like an African American gentleman who was caught on video robbing the gas station insisting that the justice system is racist. It is possible that the justice system is racist and that it would imprison him even if he did nothing wrong. But it is difficult to test because in this instance he did something wrong. Israelis have been encircled by a terrorist network regime for like...what, 50 years? Theres been plenty of attempts to act nice, plenty of attempts at negotiation -- how do you realistically expect them to play nice when, for instance: northern israel had 500k people evacuated from it for over a year due to hezbollah shelling? The niceness of retreating hundreds of thousands of your own people while a genocidal terrorist organization threatened to kill everyone went no where. Decapitating their leadership did -- and the reaction was horror and accusations of war crimes by the western left. Israel playing nice is them getting shot at every day of the week, forever. Then you’ll never be able to test whether Israel has critics because they deserve it or because of antisemitism. Context and proportionality matter. We can look at behaviour, patterns of framing, ideological associations, and how old antisemitic ideas slip into modern rhetoric to understand who is arguing in bad faith and to what degree. Intersectional analysis helps too, because it reminds us that cultural and racial bias exists even among people who see themselves as progressive. There is also a real difference between someone with implicit bias and someone who is a dogmatic antisemite. It is not a yes or no question of whether something is antisemitic, but rather what kind and how deeply it runs. We will never have perfect certainty about people’s motives, but we dont need a controlled experiment to make moral or political judgments. We can still study language, tone, and consistency and reach reasonable conclusions about intent. Good leftists study how power shapes culture. Bad leftists think culture doesn’t matter and focus only on material conditions. The thing is, both Western and Middle Eastern societies have had the power to decide who looks like the villain for a very long time, and those stories still shape how we see this conflict. Our power shapes our perspective. We like to imagine we’re looking at things objectively, but we’re still carrying old myths about Jews, about power, about who’s allowed to fight back. Groups like Hamas and Hezbollah have their own racial and religious hatreds baked in, and we have our own biases that make us blind to them. The blunt kind of leftism says “just meet their demands and it’ll stop.” But Israel’s tried that. It keeps happening because they’re hated as Jews, not because they haven’t been kind enough. And a lot of people in our world still see this through the same cultural lens, not out of malice, just inheritance.
I think this is quite reductive as per this specific thread, although yes I think it probably scans more broadly with gen pop, or can, certainly.
The civilian death toll is absolutely appalling, many other facets of this wider conflict from Israel’s end are appalling, can co-exist with an acknowledgement that Hamas/Hezbollah and other actors are appalling, and Israel has the right to defend its citizens
It’s all a bit FUBARed really. I think most in here are under no illusions as to that, at least in the short term.
With recourse to my own neck of the woods, things were somewhat defused with an equalisation of civic rights, subsequently cultural enfranchisement and dual citizenship rights, and eventually the prospect of a United Ireland down the line.
Even if we’re going full cloud in the sky hypotheticals, I mean there simply isn’t some similar package that you could sell to many Palestinians right now, and that is rather fundamental as roadblocks to mutual peace go.
But I think, at least here most are kind of cognisant of that too.
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