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On October 24 2025 17:30 RvB wrote: For the West Bank your proposition is preposterous. The PA has administrative control over area's A and B where most of the Palestinians live. There are no internment camps, there's no forced labour, no religious restrictions, etc. Jews aren't even allowed to come there. Xinjiang is many times worse than the West Bank.
For life in the West Bank I always like to come back to this depiction, which I find quite powerful. Are we taking this into account in our equation and still coming up with this answer? Or are we saying that he's lying?
Not to take away from your point, which I'm guessing is about the checkpoints being fucking awful - and they are.
This guy rubbed me the wrong way to the absolute max. Supposedly in a matter of what sounds like 30 minutes, he goes from full on yeshiva boy in a settlement, to sneaking into Ramallah (which btw is not as easy as he describes it but okay) on a whim (!) because he met a nice Palestinian guy who didn't immediately murder him, and on the bus it immediately strikes him that Israel is a settler-colonial genocide machine (the terms must've been divined upon him) and starts immediately fearing for his life from the very people he was among minutes ago... because he took his Kippah off.
You can also tell that there's a part of the story missing because he's attending the class in the first place, which he wouldn't do if his journey out of the far right hadn't started already. But like he said he's doing a summary of what happened, probably insisting on the highlights a little more for dramatic effect. It didn't rub me the wrong way, I especially resonated with the part about who he would trust or not trust when faced with fascism. It's hard to judge from just a few minutes of video but he sounds like someone who agrees with 90-100% of my moral assessments.
I'm having trouble accessing your video but if I understand you correctly it's a Palestinian guy being antisemitic? I mean, okay.
On October 24 2025 17:30 RvB wrote: For the West Bank your proposition is preposterous. The PA has administrative control over area's A and B where most of the Palestinians live. There are no internment camps, there's no forced labour, no religious restrictions, etc. Jews aren't even allowed to come there. Xinjiang is many times worse than the West Bank.
For life in the West Bank I always like to come back to this depiction, which I find quite powerful. Are we taking this into account in our equation and still coming up with this answer? Or are we saying that he's lying?
Not to take away from your point, which I'm guessing is about the checkpoints being fucking awful - and they are.
This guy rubbed me the wrong way to the absolute max. Supposedly in a matter of what sounds like 30 minutes, he goes from full on yeshiva boy in a settlement, to sneaking into Ramallah (which btw is not as easy as he describes it but okay) on a whim (!) because he met a nice Palestinian guy who didn't immediately murder him, and on the bus it immediately strikes him that Israel is a settler-colonial genocide machine (the terms must've been divined upon him) and starts immediately fearing for his life from the very people he was among minutes ago... because he took his Kippah off.
You can also tell that there's a part of the story missing because he's attending the class in the first place, which he wouldn't do if his journey out of the far right hadn't started already. But like he said he's doing a summary of what happened, probably insisting on the highlights a little more for dramatic effect. It didn't rub me the wrong way, I especially resonated with the part about who he would trust or not trust when faced with fascism. It's hard to judge from just a few minutes of video but he sounds like someone who agrees with 90-100% of my moral assessments.
I'm having trouble accessing your video but if I understand you correctly it's a Palestinian guy being antisemitic? I mean, okay.
The guy in the reel is the guy in your YouTube video, in my understanding.
There are many horror stories, including shooting kids who were "throwing stones", doing raids in the middle of the night, killing people in "self-defense", I guess for me, because that whole thing is literally "who and where would I rather be" it's a matter of do I want to be woken up in the middle of the night by paramilitary religious fanatics and randomly shoot or do I have to be a part of a systematically oppressed religious / ethnic group.
There are plenty of Palestinians and Uyghurs who live relatively normal lives. I wager that as an average Uyghur you have a higher chance of having a nicer and more stable life than an average Palestinian in the West Bank. This, of course, might be a part of my bias / informational bubble, but that's my opinion at the moment based on what I know about both situations.
You're wrong. Uyghurs live in a police state. There are no Uyghur who live a nice and stable life except some of the elite that cooperate with the CCP. See for instance part of the article below. It's long but describes it well.
In Hotan there is a new police station every 300 metres or so. They are called “convenience police stations”, as if they were shops—and in fact they do offer some consumer services, such as bottled water and phone recharging. The windowless stations, gunmetal grey, with forbidding grilles on their doors, are part of a “grid-management system” like that which Mr Chen pioneered when he was party boss in Tibet from 2011 to 2016. The authorities divide each city into squares, with about 500 people. Every square has a police station that keeps tabs on the inhabitants. So, in rural areas, does every village.
At a large checkpoint on the edge of Hotan a policeman orders everyone off a bus. The passengers (all Uighur) take turns in a booth. Their identity cards are scanned, photographs and fingerprints of them are taken, newly installed iris-recognition technology peers into their eyes. Women must take off their headscarves. Three young Uighurs are told to turn on their smartphones and punch in the passwords. They give the phones to a policeman who puts the devices into a cradle that downloads their contents for later analysis. One woman shouts at a policeman that he is Uighur, why is he looking at her phone?
There can be four or five checkpoints every kilometre. Uighurs go through them many times a day. Shops and restaurants in Hotan have panic buttons with which to summon the police. The response time is one minute. Apparently because of the Kunming knife attack, knives and scissors are as hard to buy as a gun in Japan. In butchers and restaurants all over Xinjiang you will see kitchen knives chained to the wall, lest they be snatched up and used as weapons. In Aksu QR codes containing the owner’s identity-card information have to be engraved on every blade.
Remarkably, all shops and restaurants in Hotan must have a part-time policeman on duty. Thousands of shop assistants and waiters have been enrolled in the police to this end. Each is issued with a helmet, flak jacket and three-foot baton. They train in the afternoon. In the textile market these police officers sit in every booth and stall, selling things; their helmets and flak jackets, which are uncomfortable, are often doffed. A squad of full-time police walks through the market making sure security cameras are working and ordering shop assistants to put their helmets back on. Asked why they wear them, the assistants reply tersely “security”.
At the city’s railway station, travellers go through three rounds of bag checks before buying a ticket. On board, police walk up and down ordering Uighurs to open their luggage again. As the train pulls into Kashgar, it passes metal goods wagons. A toddler points at them shouting excitedly “Armoured car! Armoured car!” Paramilitary vehicles are more familiar to him than rolling stock.
Uniformed shop assistants, knife controls and “convenience police stations” are only the most visible elements of the police state. The province has an equally extensive if less visible regime that uses yet more manpower and a great deal of technology to create total surveillance.
Under a system called fanghuiju, teams of half a dozen—composed of policemen or local officials and always including one Uighur speaker, which almost always means a Uighur—go from house to house compiling dossiers of personal information. Fanghuiju is short for “researching people’s conditions, improving people’s lives, winning people’s hearts”. But the party refers to the work as “eradicating tumours”. The teams—over 10,000 in rural areas in 2017—report on “extremist” behaviour such as not drinking alcohol, fasting during Ramadan and sporting long beards. They report back on the presence of “undesirable” items, such as Korans, or attitudes—such as an “ideological situation” that is not in wholehearted support of the party.
Since the spring of 2017, the information has been used to rank citizens’ “trustworthiness” using various criteria. People are deemed trustworthy, average or untrustworthy depending on how they fit into the following categories: 15 to 55 years old (ie, of military age); Uighur (the catalogue is explicitly racist: people are suspected merely on account of their ethnicity); unemployed; have religious knowledge; pray five times a day (freedom of worship is guaranteed by China’s constitution); have a passport; have visited one of 26 countries; have ever overstayed a visa; have family members in a foreign country (there are at least 10,000 Uighurs in Turkey); and home school their children. Being labelled “untrustworthy” can lead to a camp.
To complete the panorama of human surveillance, the government has a programme called “becoming kin” in which local families (mostly Uighur) “adopt” officials (mostly Han). The official visits his or her adoptive family regularly, lives with it for short periods, gives the children presents and teaches the household Mandarin. He also verifies information collected by fanghuiju teams. The programme appears to be immense. According to an official report in 2018, 1.1m officials have been paired with 1.6m families. That means roughly half of Uighur households have had a Han-Chinese spy/indoctrinator assigned to them.
Such efforts map the province’s ideological territory family by family; technology maps the population’s activities street by street and phone by phone. In Hotan and Kashgar there are poles bearing perhaps eight or ten video cameras at intervals of 100-200 metres along every street; a far finer-grained surveillance net than in most Chinese cities. As well as watching pedestrians the cameras can read car number plates and correlate them with the face of the person driving. Only registered owners may drive cars; anyone else will be arrested, according to a public security official who accompanied this correspondent in Hotan. The cameras are equipped to work at night as well as by day.
Because the government sees what it calls “web cleansing” as necessary to prevent access to terrorist information, everyone in Xinjiang is supposed to have a spyware app on their mobile phone. Failing to install the app, which can identify people called, track online activity and record social-media use, is an offence. “Wi-Fi sniffers” in public places keep an eye, or nose, on all networked devices in range.
Next, the records associated with identity cards can contain biometric data including fingerprints, blood type and DNA information as well as the subject’s detention record and “reliability status”. The government collects a lot of this biometric material by stealth, under the guise of a public-health programme called “Physicals for All”, which requires people to give blood samples.
On October 24 2025 17:30 RvB wrote: For the West Bank your proposition is preposterous. The PA has administrative control over area's A and B where most of the Palestinians live. There are no internment camps, there's no forced labour, no religious restrictions, etc. Jews aren't even allowed to come there. Xinjiang is many times worse than the West Bank.
For life in the West Bank I always like to come back to this depiction, which I find quite powerful. Are we taking this into account in our equation and still coming up with this answer? Or are we saying that he's lying?
On October 24 2025 17:30 RvB wrote: For the West Bank your proposition is preposterous. The PA has administrative control over area's A and B where most of the Palestinians live. There are no internment camps, there's no forced labour, no religious restrictions, etc. Jews aren't even allowed to come there. Xinjiang is many times worse than the West Bank.
For life in the West Bank I always like to come back to this depiction, which I find quite powerful. Are we taking this into account in our equation and still coming up with this answer? Or are we saying that he's lying?
Not to take away from your point, which I'm guessing is about the checkpoints being fucking awful - and they are.
This guy rubbed me the wrong way to the absolute max. Supposedly in a matter of what sounds like 30 minutes, he goes from full on yeshiva boy in a settlement, to sneaking into Ramallah (which btw is not as easy as he describes it but okay) on a whim (!) because he met a nice Palestinian guy who didn't immediately murder him, and on the bus it immediately strikes him that Israel is a settler-colonial genocide machine (the terms must've been divined upon him) and starts immediately fearing for his life from the very people he was among minutes ago... because he took his Kippah off.
You can also tell that there's a part of the story missing because he's attending the class in the first place, which he wouldn't do if his journey out of the far right hadn't started already. But like he said he's doing a summary of what happened, probably insisting on the highlights a little more for dramatic effect. It didn't rub me the wrong way, I especially resonated with the part about who he would trust or not trust when faced with fascism. It's hard to judge from just a few minutes of video but he sounds like someone who agrees with 90-100% of my moral assessments.
I'm having trouble accessing your video but if I understand you correctly it's a Palestinian guy being antisemitic? I mean, okay.
The guy in the reel is the guy in your YouTube video, in my understanding.
I see, my bad. Thanks for bringing this to my attention.
On October 24 2025 17:30 RvB wrote: For the West Bank your proposition is preposterous. The PA has administrative control over area's A and B where most of the Palestinians live. There are no internment camps, there's no forced labour, no religious restrictions, etc. Jews aren't even allowed to come there. Xinjiang is many times worse than the West Bank.
For life in the West Bank I always like to come back to this depiction, which I find quite powerful. Are we taking this into account in our equation and still coming up with this answer? Or are we saying that he's lying?
Not to take away from your point, which I'm guessing is about the checkpoints being fucking awful - and they are.
This guy rubbed me the wrong way to the absolute max. Supposedly in a matter of what sounds like 30 minutes, he goes from full on yeshiva boy in a settlement, to sneaking into Ramallah (which btw is not as easy as he describes it but okay) on a whim (!) because he met a nice Palestinian guy who didn't immediately murder him, and on the bus it immediately strikes him that Israel is a settler-colonial genocide machine (the terms must've been divined upon him) and starts immediately fearing for his life from the very people he was among minutes ago... because he took his Kippah off.
I didn't bother looking beyond that. I don't think I need to see more.
apartheid, ethnic cleansing, genocide used in quick succession(westerners talking points) was a red flag but when he started spewing things about his deep, righteous, ancestral voice ... ok bro.
yep. anti zionism functions as a respectable screen for antisemitism, more and more. pretty obvious when hasan started calling civilians legitimate military targets and anna kasparian went full on antisemitic trope replete with cackling. Israels abuse of palestine matters (quite a bit, human life matters) but when it soaks up the entire political space for two years and is framed as the worst genocide in history--- something else is motivating (quite a lot of, not all) the people in this than pure humanism. Not to mention all the conspiracies that have overtaken many progressive circles -- israel is controlling the united states, charlie kirk was assassinated by israel etc-- which are frankly indistinguishable from neo nazis zog machine conspiracies. The sad part about the mainstreaming of antisemitism is that it will inspire a) more jews to flee to israel and b) a stronger israeli line because of legitimated fear.
On October 27 2025 06:36 Ze'ev wrote: yep. anti zionism functions as a respectable screen for antisemitism, more and more. pretty obvious when hasan started calling civilians legitimate military targets and anna kasparian went full on antisemitic trope replete with cackling. Israels abuse of palestine matters (quite a bit, human life matters) but when it soaks up the entire political space for two years and is framed as the worst genocide in history--- something else is motivating (quite a lot of, not all) the people in this than pure humanism. Not to mention all the conspiracies that have overtaken many progressive circles -- israel is controlling the united states, charlie kirk was assassinated by israel etc-- which are frankly indistinguishable from neo nazis zog machine conspiracies. The sad part about the mainstreaming of antisemitism is that it will inspire a) more jews to flee to israel and b) a stronger israeli line because of legitimated fear.
humans are really a sick fucking animal.
It’s more of a mixed bag than you’re making out. And if there’s a human who’s framed it as the worst genocide in history I’ve yet to meet them.
I’m observing an increase in anti-Semitism, running in parallel with a reflexive defence of Israel in certain quarters.
Both can be true simultaneously. I’d argue the latter also feeds the former. See the recent embarrassing UK government interjections on the upcoming Aston Villa Macaibi Tel Aviv match. Which I can elaborate on if one is unfamiliar.
Versus other atrocities it is probably given disproportionate focus, but it’s not always for the same reasons. In the US, there’s the angle that the US actively funds and assists in what the state of Israel does. In Ireland, one of the most pro-Palestinian nations in Europe, a good chunk of that sentiment comes from anti-colonialism and viewing it as something of an analogue for British occupation.
I’ve actively called out anti-Semitic conspiracy nonsense in many places, sadly even here with the ‘Israel assassinated Charlie Kirk’ angle, and tbh think said user repeatedly making the charge should have been actioned. Me posts are there to find, I think anti-Semitism is repugnant.
Equally I don’t think that many try to conflate criticism of Israel with anti-Semitism is remotely off base either
Basically we don't have to do much. The most important thing that needs to happen is that the West stops letting Israel get away with everything, and the way to achieve that from our point of view as powerless people is pressure on western politicians. It's well on the way in Europe, and given that they're going to invent new numbers to describe how unpopular Israel is with Democrats I'd say that if the US is still a democracy in 2029 then it's on the way there too.
I don't see Trump ending peacefully so I expect the bad future, but if I'm wrong, on this topic we're on the right path.
On October 25 2025 02:10 RvB wrote: You're wrong. Uyghurs live in a police state. There are no Uyghur who live a nice and stable life except some of the elite that cooperate with the CCP. See for instance part of the article below. It's long but describes it well..
There is not much there that has anything more then what West bank Palestinians don't have, just a different flavor of repression, and from everything I've read, less violent.
Also, another thing that crossed my mind when reading this, China, in general is a police state for most of it's citizens, obviously not to the extent of what is being done to Uyughurs but way more then what Israel does to non-West bank Palestinian citizens.
You also, haven't really provided any evidence for what you wrote, yes, this city has all this, there is 12 million Uygurhs, going around and providing one article and extrapolating it to "no Uyghur who live a nice and stable life" is quite a leap, especially when you put it after an arrogant "you're wrong".
In general you are trying to project some sort of "factually you are wrong" stance when you are obviously quite ignorant on this outside of "how can this guy say something I disagree with".
Xinjiang spans over 1.6 million square kilometers, Uyghur dominated areas are about a quarter of that, still bigger then any European country.
Average GDP for a Palestinian in 2024 according to IMF is $2,440. Average for Xinjiang is around $10,500.
There is plenty of programs that aren't just incredibly repressive to Uyghurs, such as affirmative action that actually help them, there are plenty of Uyghurs who have a much better chance of a good life then Palestinians.
And then there is the random and state sponsored violence and living under a military occupation.
This is why I'd much rather be a Uyghur. Maybe I don't have a problem with saying fuck my religion or national identity, so it's easier for me to imagine having a better life, but it's very wrong to say "You're wrong" on saying that on average there are both who live normal lives and I'd like my chances in China more.
Again, fuck the CCP for doing this shit, it's a slow roll Ethnic Cleansing and Cultural Genocide, too bad that people like you who attack me for saying it's not as bad as West Bank can't say the same about policies that Israel implements there.
On October 27 2025 06:36 Ze'ev wrote: yep. anti zionism functions as a respectable screen for antisemitism, more and more. pretty obvious when hasan started calling civilians legitimate military targets and anna kasparian went full on antisemitic trope replete with cackling. Israels abuse of palestine matters (quite a bit, human life matters) but when it soaks up the entire political space for two years and is framed as the worst genocide in history--- something else is motivating (quite a lot of, not all) the people in this than pure humanism. Not to mention all the conspiracies that have overtaken many progressive circles -- israel is controlling the united states, charlie kirk was assassinated by israel etc-- which are frankly indistinguishable from neo nazis zog machine conspiracies. The sad part about the mainstreaming of antisemitism is that it will inspire a) more jews to flee to israel and b) a stronger israeli line because of legitimated fear.
humans are really a sick fucking animal.
It’s more of a mixed bag than you’re making out. And if there’s a human who’s framed it as the worst genocide in history I’ve yet to meet them.
I’m observing an increase in anti-Semitism, running in parallel with a reflexive defence of Israel in certain quarters.
Both can be true simultaneously. I’d argue the latter also feeds the former. See the recent embarrassing UK government interjections on the upcoming Aston Villa Macaibi Tel Aviv match. Which I can elaborate on if one is unfamiliar.
Versus other atrocities it is probably given disproportionate focus, but it’s not always for the same reasons. In the US, there’s the angle that the US actively funds and assists in what the state of Israel does. In Ireland, one of the most pro-Palestinian nations in Europe, a good chunk of that sentiment comes from anti-colonialism and viewing it as something of an analogue for British occupation.
I’ve actively called out anti-Semitic conspiracy nonsense in many places, sadly even here with the ‘Israel assassinated Charlie Kirk’ angle, and tbh think said user repeatedly making the charge should have been actioned. Me posts are there to find, I think anti-Semitism is repugnant.
Equally I don’t think that many try to conflate criticism of Israel with anti-Semitism is remotely off base either
Well, no. You misunderstood me: I wasn't saying if someone critisizes israel or even takes an anti zionist position that they're being antisemitic. I meant its being used as a screen to allow for antisemitism. Its effective camouflage. As to not hearing people calling it the worst genocide ever -- I see you are [very admirably] not super glued into online communities. You will see Israelis called demons, this the worst genocide ever and similar extremist hyperbole all over the internet if your online long enough. I'm also dating a jewish girl and as a consequence im aware of A) all the people who are saying antisemitic things as it spreads through the community b) all the instances of intimidation, dog whistles, and threats (for example posters being spread around toronto calling for the 'unmasking' of zionists and saying 'all zionists must be afraid') c) all the actual cases of violence. So yeah: there has been a huge mainstreaming of antisemitism on the left since october 7th and many well known figures have outed themselves either as antisemites or opportunists (and ofc the far right is doing this as well, im just focusing on the left because they claim to be anti racists so it hurts more).
I do think the obsession is rooted in antisemitism -- ok the u.s government or europe has complicity in it, but thats true of virtually every genocide on the globe. Name me a Government that fucks people up that the West isnt either directly giving arms to, funding, or engaging in economic relations with? Theres a few -- like north korea -- but only a few. We are implicated everywhere. I have lived through far more extensive genocides that implicated the u.s and the west and never seen so many people dedicate themselves with such hateful passion, never seen the mainstreaming of genocidal rhetoric (hasan: all Zionists should be treated as rabid neo-Nazis … you shouldn’t even let them be the local dog catcher." and similar such statements. Hasan is extremely popular and has been on CNN, hes treated as a respectable figure. Hes made a habit of supporting terrorism, suggesting that genocidal violence against jews is acceptable, using dog whistles and antisemitic slurs (inbred pig dogs etc) all with no real pushback by the establishment.) as with this conflict. Though that goes on both sides with the right happy to cheer on the deaths of palestinians or use the conflict to justify a crackdown on free speech.
As to Ireland or even Europe generally; antisemitism is a historically metastasizing ideology, it shapes itself to time and place. I'm sure the irish people have sincere humanistic concerns about Gaza, but lets not ignore well over a thousand years of antisemitism pushed by the catholic church which has deeply embedded itself into Irish society. Similarly; look beneath the surface of anti colonial and anti genocidal rhetoric and you will find unabashed antisemitism running rampant through the irish left and irish society more generally.
edit: and to be frank the dismissal of the mainstreaming of antisemitism so many people are quick to make smacks of condescension and white privilege: part of the issue with minorities is that: the average person doesn't know the history or the dog whistles or how any one group is associated with the larger history and framing as much as that minority group is. And minorities concerns can easily be drowned out because they are a minority, its very easy to do crazy making. If black people point out a dog whistle, you can dismiss that as trauma or weaponising racism against white people. Thats easy to do from a position of economic and racial privilege; your lifes not on the line, you don't need to understand, and so your empathy only goes so far. And thats precisely what has happened over the last two years; the jewish community points out well known tropes, bad faith actors and distortions, and are drowned out by a torrent of 'your exaggerating'. Happened to black people and trans people too, and now we have trump. I think if your reflex is to underplay the fear of an oppressed minority you should take a step back and think 'to what extent could my privilege and ignorance be blinding me to real concerns? Are my politics incentivizing me to ignore whats happening?'
Ofc this anti racist shit is never applied by the left to itself -- introspection is too hard and painful, and self righteous posturing too alluring an elixir to give up.
We are implicated everywhere, the difference is that when I criticize the US for its connexion with Saudi Arabia, we don't get 200 pages to decide whether I'm being islamophobic, and as a result the conversation dies down quickly. That may be the unique thing that you're missing that causes this topic to generate more traffic: there was pushback, for a whole-ass year, by a bunch of people, when we were saying the things that we were saying.
You're aware of the topic because you're dating a Jewish girl now? Last time it was because your wife had a masters degree of history on the topic...
On October 28 2025 06:20 Nebuchad wrote: We are implicated everywhere, the difference is that when I criticize the US for its connexion with Saudi Arabia, we don't get 200 pages to decide whether I'm being islamophobic, and as a result the conversation dies down quickly. That may be the unique thing that you're missing that causes this topic to generate more traffic: there was pushback, for a whole-ass year, by a bunch of people, when we were saying the things that we were saying.
You're aware of the topic because you're dating a Jewish girl now? Last time it was because your wife had a masters degree of history on the topic...
Accusations of islamophobia follow in the wake of every discussion about muslims and deservedly so.
~~~~ My fiance is jewish and has a masters degree; what in the fuck are you doing collecting personal anecdotes about strangers on the internet for in order to debate away antisemitism? the last time i brought up my personal life on teamliquid was close to six months ago. Weird fucking behaviour to say the least, especially in the context of jumping into a conversation between me and wombat to scream 'but im not an antisemite!! D:<!!" when I wasn't speaking to you and implied nothing about you, dont even know who the fuck you are.
Its telling that instead of engaging with the argument, you went hunting through half-year-old posts to recycle a personal anecdote as a gotcha. That fixation (and the quiet, angry resentment it implies toward a stranger) turning someone’s Jewish relationships into an accusation is exactly the sort of behaviour I’m describing: a need to delegitimize concern about antisemitism rather than engage with it.
On October 27 2025 06:36 Ze'ev wrote: yep. anti zionism functions as a respectable screen for antisemitism, more and more. pretty obvious when hasan started calling civilians legitimate military targets and anna kasparian went full on antisemitic trope replete with cackling. Israels abuse of palestine matters (quite a bit, human life matters) but when it soaks up the entire political space for two years and is framed as the worst genocide in history--- something else is motivating (quite a lot of, not all) the people in this than pure humanism. Not to mention all the conspiracies that have overtaken many progressive circles -- israel is controlling the united states, charlie kirk was assassinated by israel etc-- which are frankly indistinguishable from neo nazis zog machine conspiracies. The sad part about the mainstreaming of antisemitism is that it will inspire a) more jews to flee to israel and b) a stronger israeli line because of legitimated fear.
humans are really a sick fucking animal.
It’s more of a mixed bag than you’re making out. And if there’s a human who’s framed it as the worst genocide in history I’ve yet to meet them.
I’m observing an increase in anti-Semitism, running in parallel with a reflexive defence of Israel in certain quarters.
Both can be true simultaneously. I’d argue the latter also feeds the former. See the recent embarrassing UK government interjections on the upcoming Aston Villa Macaibi Tel Aviv match. Which I can elaborate on if one is unfamiliar.
Versus other atrocities it is probably given disproportionate focus, but it’s not always for the same reasons. In the US, there’s the angle that the US actively funds and assists in what the state of Israel does. In Ireland, one of the most pro-Palestinian nations in Europe, a good chunk of that sentiment comes from anti-colonialism and viewing it as something of an analogue for British occupation.
I’ve actively called out anti-Semitic conspiracy nonsense in many places, sadly even here with the ‘Israel assassinated Charlie Kirk’ angle, and tbh think said user repeatedly making the charge should have been actioned. Me posts are there to find, I think anti-Semitism is repugnant.
Equally I don’t think that many try to conflate criticism of Israel with anti-Semitism is remotely off base either
Well, no. You misunderstood me: I wasn't saying if someone critisizes israel or even takes an anti zionist position that they're being antisemitic. I meant its being used as a screen to allow for antisemitism. Its effective camouflage. As to not hearing people calling it the worst genocide ever -- I see you are [very admirably] not super glued into online communities. You will see Israelis called demons, this the worst genocide ever and similar extremist hyperbole all over the internet if your online long enough. I'm also dating a jewish girl and as a consequence im aware of A) all the people who are saying antisemitic things as it spreads through the community b) all the instances of intimidation, dog whistles, and threats (for example posters being spread around toronto calling for the 'unmasking' of zionists and saying 'all zionists must be afraid') c) all the actual cases of violence. So yeah: there has been a huge mainstreaming of antisemitism on the left since october 7th and many well known figures have outed themselves either as antisemites or opportunists (and ofc the far right is doing this as well, im just focusing on the left because they claim to be anti racists so it hurts more).
I do think the obsession is rooted in antisemitism -- ok the u.s government or europe has complicity in it, but thats true of virtually every genocide on the globe. Name me a Government that fucks people up that the West isnt either directly giving arms to, funding, or engaging in economic relations with? Theres a few -- like north korea -- but only a few. We are implicated everywhere. I have lived through far more extensive genocides that implicated the u.s and the west and never seen so many people dedicate themselves with such hateful passion, never seen the mainstreaming of genocidal rhetoric (hasan: all Zionists should be treated as rabid neo-Nazis … you shouldn’t even let them be the local dog catcher." and similar such statements. Hasan is extremely popular and has been on CNN, hes treated as a respectable figure. Hes made a habit of supporting terrorism, suggesting that genocidal violence against jews is acceptable, using dog whistles and antisemitic slurs (inbred pig dogs etc) all with no real pushback by the establishment.) as with this conflict. Though that goes on both sides with the right happy to cheer on the deaths of palestinians or use the conflict to justify a crackdown on free speech.
As to Ireland or even Europe generally; antisemitism is a historically metastasizing ideology, it shapes itself to time and place. I'm sure the irish people have sincere humanistic concerns about Gaza, but lets not ignore well over a thousand years of antisemitism pushed by the catholic church which has deeply embedded itself into Irish society. Similarly; look beneath the surface of anti colonial and anti genocidal rhetoric and you will find unabashed antisemitism running rampant through the irish left and irish society more generally.
edit: and to be frank the dismissal of the mainstreaming of antisemitism so many people are quick to make smacks of condescension and white privilege: part of the issue with minorities is that: the average person doesn't know the history or the dog whistles or how any one group is associated with the larger history and framing as much as that minority group is. And minorities concerns can easily be drowned out because they are a minority, its very easy to do crazy making. If black people point out a dog whistle, you can dismiss that as trauma or weaponising racism against white people. Thats easy to do from a position of economic and racial privilege; your lifes not on the line, you don't need to understand, and so your empathy only goes so far. And thats precisely what has happened over the last two years; the jewish community points out well known tropes, bad faith actors and distortions, and are drowned out by a torrent of 'your exaggerating'. Happened to black people and trans people too, and now we have trump. I think if your reflex is to underplay the fear of an oppressed minority you should take a step back and think 'to what extent could my privilege and ignorance be blinding me to real concerns? Are my politics incentivizing me to ignore whats happening?'
Ofc this anti racist shit is never applied by the left to itself -- introspection is too hard and painful, and self righteous posturing too alluring an elixir to give up.
I don’t think you will in the Irish example. You may find it elsewhere.
The idea that anti-Semitism is running rampant in Irish society is off-base, in my opinion. Which may be wrong. But I do live there. And have gone to many demonstrations where it hasn’t factored.
For me it’s a matter of having a sensible collective conversation on such things, ideally with some tangible shifts. I think anti-Semtisim is on the rise, as I said prior.
An IDF drone operating Tuesday over Gaza City recorded Hamas terrorists removing the body of a slain Israeli captive from an apartment in the Daraj-Tuffah neighborhood, placing it in a pit dug by a tractor, and covering it with soil. Moments later, the terrorists reportedly called representatives of the Red Cross.
What's even the purpose of this? Are they just buying time under the guise of searches & excavations?
Some other things happening: - Partial remains of deceased hostage returned by Hamas appear to be of one already buried in Israel - Lapid calling the government to act with restraint in the face of Hamas' overdue (and ongoing) returning of deceased hostages
On October 25 2025 02:10 RvB wrote: You're wrong. Uyghurs live in a police state. There are no Uyghur who live a nice and stable life except some of the elite that cooperate with the CCP. See for instance part of the article below. It's long but describes it well..
There is not much there that has anything more then what West bank Palestinians don't have, just a different flavor of repression, and from everything I've read, less violent.
Also, another thing that crossed my mind when reading this, China, in general is a police state for most of it's citizens, obviously not to the extent of what is being done to Uyughurs but way more then what Israel does to non-West bank Palestinian citizens.
You also, haven't really provided any evidence for what you wrote, yes, this city has all this, there is 12 million Uygurhs, going around and providing one article and extrapolating it to "no Uyghur who live a nice and stable life" is quite a leap, especially when you put it after an arrogant "you're wrong".
In general you are trying to project some sort of "factually you are wrong" stance when you are obviously quite ignorant on this outside of "how can this guy say something I disagree with".
Xinjiang spans over 1.6 million square kilometers, Uyghur dominated areas are about a quarter of that, still bigger then any European country.
Average GDP for a Palestinian in 2024 according to IMF is $2,440. Average for Xinjiang is around $10,500.
There is plenty of programs that aren't just incredibly repressive to Uyghurs, such as affirmative action that actually help them, there are plenty of Uyghurs who have a much better chance of a good life then Palestinians.
And then there is the random and state sponsored violence and living under a military occupation.
This is why I'd much rather be a Uyghur. Maybe I don't have a problem with saying fuck my religion or national identity, so it's easier for me to imagine having a better life, but it's very wrong to say "You're wrong" on saying that on average there are both who live normal lives and I'd like my chances in China more.
Again, fuck the CCP for doing this shit, it's a slow roll Ethnic Cleansing and Cultural Genocide, too bad that people like you who attack me for saying it's not as bad as West Bank can't say the same about policies that Israel implements there.
I do not think people are attacking you, they are disagreeing with you and struggling to see the purpose of this line of discussion.
If someone was to be posting long posts about how the Gazans don't have it that bad compared to how the Tutsi in Rwanda, what would you think that persons intentions were? What value would it bring and what would it accomplish?
This is a line of discussion transplanted from the Russia / Ukraine thread borne out of an off hand comment saying I'd much rather be oppressed by Chinese then Israeli and rather be a Uyghur then a Palestinian.
You can go to the other thread and see that there were 3-4 posters going after that up to a point where it was suggested to move it elsewhere.
Then RvB came here and started with a very strong "you are wrong" which is a pretty attacky angle, so, please, if you are going to try to agitate at least go back and get your facts straight before trying to be provocative because this is a pretty week attempt and has even less to do with this thread then the previous exchange.
On October 28 2025 06:20 Nebuchad wrote: We are implicated everywhere, the difference is that when I criticize the US for its connexion with Saudi Arabia, we don't get 200 pages to decide whether I'm being islamophobic, and as a result the conversation dies down quickly. That may be the unique thing that you're missing that causes this topic to generate more traffic: there was pushback, for a whole-ass year, by a bunch of people, when we were saying the things that we were saying.
You're aware of the topic because you're dating a Jewish girl now? Last time it was because your wife had a masters degree of history on the topic...
Accusations of islamophobia follow in the wake of every discussion about muslims and deservedly so.
~~~~ My fiance is jewish and has a masters degree; what in the fuck are you doing collecting personal anecdotes about strangers on the internet for in order to debate away antisemitism? the last time i brought up my personal life on teamliquid was close to six months ago. Weird fucking behaviour to say the least, especially in the context of jumping into a conversation between me and wombat to scream 'but im not an antisemite!! D:<!!" when I wasn't speaking to you and implied nothing about you, dont even know who the fuck you are.
Its telling that instead of engaging with the argument, you went hunting through half-year-old posts to recycle a personal anecdote as a gotcha. That fixation (and the quiet, angry resentment it implies toward a stranger) turning someone’s Jewish relationships into an accusation is exactly the sort of behaviour I’m describing: a need to delegitimize concern about antisemitism rather than engage with it.
You're wrong, nobody has ever called me an islamophobe when I discussed Saudi Arabia.
I didn't hunt for anything and it wasn't six months ago it was in september, it's your last post on this topic before this row of posts. This girl was your wife in the post one month ago, then you're dating her in the next post and now she's your fiance. It's a weird way of describing things.
I engaged with the argument, I explained why, in my opinion, the thing that you describe happens. You not being satisfied with my explanation (for a bad reason) is not the same thing as me not engaging.
On October 28 2025 06:20 Nebuchad wrote: We are implicated everywhere, the difference is that when I criticize the US for its connexion with Saudi Arabia, we don't get 200 pages to decide whether I'm being islamophobic, and as a result the conversation dies down quickly. That may be the unique thing that you're missing that causes this topic to generate more traffic: there was pushback, for a whole-ass year, by a bunch of people, when we were saying the things that we were saying.
You're aware of the topic because you're dating a Jewish girl now? Last time it was because your wife had a masters degree of history on the topic...
Accusations of islamophobia follow in the wake of every discussion about muslims and deservedly so.
~~~~ My fiance is jewish and has a masters degree; what in the fuck are you doing collecting personal anecdotes about strangers on the internet for in order to debate away antisemitism? the last time i brought up my personal life on teamliquid was close to six months ago. Weird fucking behaviour to say the least, especially in the context of jumping into a conversation between me and wombat to scream 'but im not an antisemite!! D:<!!" when I wasn't speaking to you and implied nothing about you, dont even know who the fuck you are.
Its telling that instead of engaging with the argument, you went hunting through half-year-old posts to recycle a personal anecdote as a gotcha. That fixation (and the quiet, angry resentment it implies toward a stranger) turning someone’s Jewish relationships into an accusation is exactly the sort of behaviour I’m describing: a need to delegitimize concern about antisemitism rather than engage with it.
You're wrong, nobody has ever called me an islamophobe when I discussed Saudi Arabia.
I didn't hunt for anything and it wasn't six months ago it was in september, it's your last post on this topic before this row of posts. This girl was your wife in the post one month ago, then you're dating her in the next post and now she's your fiance. It's a weird way of describing things.
I engaged with the argument, I explained why, in my opinion, the thing that you describe happens. You not being satisfied with my explanation (for a bad reason) is not the same thing as me not engaging.
For me they’re almost polar opposites.
I’ve yet to be called Islamaphobic for criticising a Muslim-majority or explicitly theocratic Muslim state. I’ve been called anti-Semitic plenty of times for criticising Israel.
If we move away from the realm of states, and citizens in my native land, there’s shitloads of anti-Muslim rhetoric in all sorts of domains, not much anti-Semitism. If one is curious and has Reddit, just casually browse a few UK subs, which yes aren’t going to be 100% an accurate gauge either.
If you were judging it based on the rhetoric of some medium and politicians, you’d think it was the opposite way round. Same in the States.
As I said, I do also see more anti-Semitism, which is also a problem, but it needs contextualised to reality.
All the talk about antisemitism has started to look to me like a pointless distraction that is being intentionally pushed to avoid any action against Israel. It seems like all arguments and statements need to fit a very strict purity test, while very little is actually done. Especially, I would expect sanctions to be put in place just because of how the West Bank is treated by Israel.
At the same time, while policing every statement from nobodies, the IDF has killed tens of thousands of civilians in their bombings. Those killings get struck off many times because the dead are viewed as just human shields used by Hamas, and Hamas is blamed for the deaths. I doubt that the same kind of disregard would be viewed as acceptable towards random jews getting hit by stray implications of a statement made by a nobody.
In general, I think that in many issues, people are demanding that others make tangents that muddy and weaken the original statements. For example, criticising the USA often leads to demands to criticise Russia, China, Iran, and so on and including those would make the text less coherent. Regarding Israel, the demand is to make a clear distinction from any form of antisemitism or to denounce Hamas. Also, it usually does not matter how clearly someone states their agreement on the tangent if the tangent is not at least as long as the other parts of the statement.
EPT
