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TvP Upgrades

Forum Index > Brood War Strategy
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ajfirecracker
Profile Joined May 2010
United States62 Posts
Last Edited: 2025-11-27 17:40:10
October 24 2025 12:25 GMT
#1
I've noticed a trend lately in which Pros more often go 1/1 on their mech and stop there.
What sort of breakpoint are you hitting with Vehicle Weapons?

I'm not sure if "breakpoint" is a common starcraft term.
I know it from Diablo 2.
In Diablo if you stack increased attack speed your character attacks faster.
Eventually it comes down to precise frame counts.
+30% IAS might give you zero boost over +25% because you take the same number of frames to make an attack, but +31% might give you a 10% boost over +30 because you attack 1 frame sooner.
This is a breakpoint - your upgrade doesn't pay off in the % it looks like because you have to hit some threshold to get the benefit.
We see this really obviously when Zealots are 1 attack ahead of Zergling armor - instead of dealing 10% more damage, they kill in 2 hits instead of 3 and effectively deal 50% more.
The same thing can happen in reverse.
If Zergs are ahead on carapace this might help hydra or whatever.
But zerglings vs zealots will still die in 3 hits so the Zerg gets ZERO benefit there vs being even on upgrades.

As I said, pros are often neglecting +2 Vehicle Weapons these days.
Vehicle Weapons has some funny breakpoints.
Unless I'm doing my math wrong, it always takes 3 direct siege tank shots to kill a zealot, goon or reaver.
I think +1 makes Dragoons die in 2.5 shots (so 50% splash can count as the third shot).
I admit I'm skeptical whether +1 is even really good.

My guess is that pro Terrans are figuring out (or losing, which is a slow way to figure out) that +2 weapons doesn't really hit great breakpoints in terms of actually killing Protoss. If so, +2 can actually make your army worse by increasing the splash your own units take (although it does also buff vultures and goliath ground attack).
I checked and (assuming I did my math right) +1 should let Goliaths 5-shot interceptors (which +2 also does) unless the interceptors get +1 air armor or +2 shields

On the other hand
Vehicle armor has no splash downside and as far as I can tell always shifts breakpoints favorably vs zealot, goon & interceptor attacks.

So perhaps TvP you stack armor rather than attack, and only get +attack if there are specific useful breakpoints ?

Edited to add:
Siege'd Tanks vs Dragoons will kill in 2.5 shots with +1 (which matters because of splash doing 25% or 50%)
So there's some clear argument there in favor of +1
But +2 (famously) lets Siege Tanks 2-shot other Siege Tanks, so it's especially bad to splash yourself with +2 tanks.
Maybe +1 Weapons -> 1, 2, 3 Armor is best?
zelevin
Profile Joined January 2012
United States321 Posts
October 24 2025 13:20 GMT
#2
here's an essential game from broodwar history where the protoss gets unbelievably ahead but neglects upgrades and the terran wins because of upgrades. (game 1 in this vid)
"You're the idiot, idiot. That's why your fuckin' name is Idiot." - Artosis to CSG
ajfirecracker
Profile Joined May 2010
United States62 Posts
Last Edited: 2025-10-24 13:59:24
October 24 2025 13:45 GMT
#3
On October 24 2025 22:20 zelevin wrote:
here's an essential game from broodwar history where the protoss gets unbelievably ahead but neglects upgrades and the terran wins because of upgrades. (game 1 in this vid)


I can link many VODs to show what I'm talking about in which Terrans win on +1/+1.
If this is some argument from authority I don't find it persuasive.

Moreover 240p is so blurry I can't make out what the upgrades are.
Assuming Terran is ahead on armor upgrades (which I can't tell) this could be a video I show in support of my point.

Moreover, that Protoss neglected upgrades and lost does not logically imply that Terran upgrades were the cause of victory.
Keep in mind that Protoss upgrades and Terran upgrades don't offset each other cleanly.
3/3 Terran vs 3/3 Protoss can be quite different from 0/0 Terran vs 0/0 Protoss, unlike some other matchups.
(Yes, I do realize this is because of +Vehicle Weapons)
It may be the Protoss upgrades are useful and he was lacking them, while the Terran upgrades were cosmetic.
It may be the Terran armor was crucial.
Or yes, it may be the +attack was critical.
The VOD by itself cannot tell us which.

I'm not saying that +attack does literally nothing, I'm saying players should pay attention to what it does and doesn't do.
So far as I can tell, it does very little in terms of killing units in fewer hits, which is the the most important aspect of +attack upgrades.
Maybe there are important breakpoints I've missed.
I would be curious to learn if so.

Returning to the analogy I opened with:
Is TvP +Vehicle Weapons like getting a +1 lead of Zealots over Zerglings where you 2-shot instead of 3 and it makes a big difference, but the Protoss can "catch up" ?
Is it like Tanks TvT where you hit a certain threshold (+2) and can suddenly (and permanently!) 2-shot tanks and the opponent can't ever upgrade to stop it ?
Or maybe it's like getting a +2 lead of Zealots over Zerglings or +3 tank vs tank where you still 2-shot and the last upgrade is kind of wasted?

I think given the high damage output of tanks it's a lot more like the TvT example (which is also tanks) where you hit certain breakpoints for good damage and other upgrade levels don't really matter.

It's worth keeping in mind that if +2 vehicle weapons sucks +3 might still be great.
My point is *if* +2 sucks (which is my guess but maybe there are some important breakpoints I didn't think of) you shouldn't mistakenly think it's great, even if +1 and +3 are great (due to whatever breakpoints they hit).

Edited to add:
Also, my post is in a way promoting upgrades.
If you think 1/1 is good but +2 attack is not good, you should probably still make +2 armor!
So replying with a VOD to show how important upgrades are is kind of missing the point.
I'm not saying +attack is bad don't make upgrades, I'm saying armor is obviously great while +attack requires more careful analysis and here's the sorts of things to think about.
WGT-Baal
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
France3510 Posts
Last Edited: 2025-10-24 17:51:38
October 24 2025 17:51 GMT
#4
The difference is skipping starport/science facility for as long as possible not because of +2 being bad either way. It s resources optimization. You can get more factories faster and push for the cost of even getting things done to start +2
Horang2 fan
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