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On March 24 2021 02:41 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2021 02:35 Amui wrote:On March 24 2021 01:01 JimmiC wrote:On March 24 2021 00:29 LegalLord wrote:On March 23 2021 20:15 Zealos wrote:On March 23 2021 19:57 Doublemint wrote:
AZ garbage guys. LL last authority on this, forget FDA, forget EMA and all the other studies showing the opposite. the UK basically going all in on garbage! ^_^
for a change, I kinda like what our government in Austria is trying to do - regional lockdowns based on how infection/incidence rates etc. you cross a threshold, you go into lockdown. basic precautions like ffp2 masks in shops remain across the board, but in Vorarlberg for example coffee shops and restaurants can open and some do, and some vaccinated people enjoy sitting alone in there lol
the problem is that the national government has achieved the impossible, their terrible messaging and then crumbling under the pressure of reality and/or special interest groups (tourism!) split public opinion into 3 parts. one third wishes for stricter lockdowns, one wants to open fully, and another is kinda in the middle lol.
then you have average people mixed in with idiots/right wingers and conspiracy nuts using their new found time at home to poison their minds on social media and going to anti mask and anti lockdown protests fuelled by idiocy and fear of a dictatorship. tu felix Austria indeed! I'm glad you said it so I don't have to pretty sure the AZ ones the winner atm on account of the fridge as the only requirement for storage Even among adenovirus vaccines (AZ, Sputnik, J&J) it's not really that great. Useless against the South Africa strain as well, which is worrisome and seems to be unique to AstraZeneca. Honestly based on that last factor I'd probably favor J&J since the efficacy is otherwise pretty similar between the two and there is merit to a single-dose answer. The main advantage it seems to have is that it's cheap and mass produced, which is certainly important, but folks in the US can consider themselves fortunate that the mainline vaccines are better. If the only vaccine you can get is AZ, you may indeed be forced into a situation where you're vaccinated but getting infected and spreading the disease are still a serious threat. When the vaccine you use has a 90%+ efficacy against symptomatic disease, that becomes far more rare of a scenario. Not that any of this is my unique view, mind you - AstraZeneca seems to be on par with the Chinese vaccines in terms of well-earned skepticism due to spotty real world results. Can you source any of that? Didn't AZ just produce 80% efficacy on symptoms and 100% for hospitalization and death? Was that not similar to moderna and pfizer in their trials and then it was better in real world? This along with your take on masks makes it hard to take anything you write serious, it appears to be just made up. I think it's mostly in reference to AZ efficacy on SA strain, where it moves you something like 10% down the sliding scale of severity. Death is very unlikely, hospitalization is unlikely, but beyond that it's still catching covid. Study/deployment was stopped because it barely showed any effects. It's better than nothing, but definitely better to grab something else if at all possible. iirc, both Pfizer and Moderna demonstrated that vaccinated people who still caught coronavirus demonstrated much less severe symptoms. Assuming that AZ is similarly effective in that respect, catching coronavirus after being vaccinated with AZ (which would still be rare in the first place) might not be as big a deal as an unvaccinated person catching it.
For AZ, weirdly enough the answer was not enough data. Mild-to-moderate cases was similar with AZ to unvaccinated. Guess we'll not get a clean answer since South Africa rightly dropped AZ like a hot potato the moment it was clear that it wasn't getting the job done. Not really sure there's any reason to assume that it is good against severe disease barring meaningful evidence supporting that fact for SA variant.
Seems like a uniquely AZ problem though. Every other popular vaccine has shown meaningful SA variant effectiveness, albeit at a reduced level. Whether that's due to shoddy vaccine design or vector immunity, I suppose we don't know and most likely won't find out.
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On March 23 2021 19:57 Doublemint wrote:
AZ garbage guys. LL last authority on this, forget FDA, forget EMA and all the other studies showing the opposite. the UK basically going all in on garbage! ^_^
for a change, I kinda like what our government in Austria is trying to do - regional lockdowns based on how infection/incidence rates etc. you cross a threshold, you go into lockdown. basic precautions like ffp2 masks in shops remain across the board, but in Vorarlberg for example coffee shops and restaurants can open and some do, and some vaccinated people enjoy sitting alone in there lol
the problem is that the national government has achieved the impossible, their terrible messaging and then crumbling under the pressure of reality and/or special interest groups (tourism!) split public opinion into 3 parts. one third wishes for stricter lockdowns, one wants to open fully, and another is kinda in the middle lol.
then you have average people mixed in with idiots/right wingers and conspiracy nuts using their new found time at home to poison their minds on social media and going to anti mask and anti lockdown protests fuelled by idiocy and fear of a dictatorship. tu felix Austria indeed!
I think there's an obvious reason why people's opinions are so split. In Austria the timeline for government mandates went something like this:
- Wear masks (any mask, even scarfs) indoors at all times. Recommended to wear them outside, too. Socially distance as much as possible. -- This was when there was still a notion of potential mask shortages.
- Add restrictions on number of people allowed in shops. Restaurants limited to takeaway.
- First lockdown over: all mask mandates lifted (roughly around April I believe). Almost no restrictions. Note: at this point there'd been well enough time for politicians to have learned that FFP2 masks should be the only ones being recommended/mandated. It was also known what measures Taiwan had taken to curb the spread (without any lockdowns, only using selective closures and quarantines).
- Masks required indoors. -- New recommendations on mask type, surgical masks and cloth masks considered ok (would be used as standard until January 2021). Shops must close between 7 pm and 6 am.
- Hard lockdown (roughly November/December): many shops must close. Only essential business allowed to stay open. Takeaway not allowed.
- Lockdown lifted, FFP2 masks required everywhere. Takeaway again allowed.
It's very obvious that the government failed the people. I knew 10 months before the government that FFP2 masks were the correct type, and I'm just a layperson who does simple research. They could've and should've known this long before our biggest wave in November. They also lifted all mask mandates after the first wave, which makes them seem either dumb/incompetent or not truthful to people. Either masks work or they don't, it's that simple. So some people would start to get very suspicious of the government if their reasoning for mask mandates is that the numbers are going up, but then they would not lift the mask mandates when the numbers have gone down. It's just logical: either the government failed us after the first wave or it failed us now.
It was a mistake of our government (or any other) to bet everything on vaccines and lockdowns, especially with such consistently inconsistent messages. Because of this simplistic, unintelligent approach we lost many more lives than necessary and much of our economy, too.
To this day still nothing was learned from Taiwan. I must ask why? South Korea clearly learned from them and they don't speak the same language and they don't have the same culture. So why couldn't we?
I'm writing this not because I think one side is more right than the other. My point is that mistakes were made on all sides and people lost trust, each for their own individual reasons. It's very important that we talk about the mistakes and learn from them. That debate is quite clearly not happening, because politicians want to cover their a**es.
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On March 24 2021 01:01 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2021 00:29 LegalLord wrote:On March 23 2021 20:15 Zealos wrote:On March 23 2021 19:57 Doublemint wrote:
AZ garbage guys. LL last authority on this, forget FDA, forget EMA and all the other studies showing the opposite. the UK basically going all in on garbage! ^_^
for a change, I kinda like what our government in Austria is trying to do - regional lockdowns based on how infection/incidence rates etc. you cross a threshold, you go into lockdown. basic precautions like ffp2 masks in shops remain across the board, but in Vorarlberg for example coffee shops and restaurants can open and some do, and some vaccinated people enjoy sitting alone in there lol
the problem is that the national government has achieved the impossible, their terrible messaging and then crumbling under the pressure of reality and/or special interest groups (tourism!) split public opinion into 3 parts. one third wishes for stricter lockdowns, one wants to open fully, and another is kinda in the middle lol.
then you have average people mixed in with idiots/right wingers and conspiracy nuts using their new found time at home to poison their minds on social media and going to anti mask and anti lockdown protests fuelled by idiocy and fear of a dictatorship. tu felix Austria indeed! I'm glad you said it so I don't have to pretty sure the AZ ones the winner atm on account of the fridge as the only requirement for storage Even among adenovirus vaccines (AZ, Sputnik, J&J) it's not really that great. Useless against the South Africa strain as well, which is worrisome and seems to be unique to AstraZeneca. Honestly based on that last factor I'd probably favor J&J since the efficacy is otherwise pretty similar between the two and there is merit to a single-dose answer. The main advantage it seems to have is that it's cheap and mass produced, which is certainly important, but folks in the US can consider themselves fortunate that the mainline vaccines are better. If the only vaccine you can get is AZ, you may indeed be forced into a situation where you're vaccinated but getting infected and spreading the disease are still a serious threat. When the vaccine you use has a 90%+ efficacy against symptomatic disease, that becomes far more rare of a scenario. Not that any of this is my unique view, mind you - AstraZeneca seems to be on par with the Chinese vaccines in terms of well-earned skepticism due to spotty real world results. Can you source any of that? Didn't AZ just produce 80% efficacy on symptoms and 100% for hospitalization and death? Was that not similar to moderna and pfizer in their trials and then it was better in real world? This along with your take on masks makes it hard to take anything you write serious, it appears to be just made up.
As a heads-up, AZ used outdated information by promoting that 79% number-it came from an interim analysis that was previously reported, it wasn't based on new data. The current numbers based on what the Data Safety and Monitoring Board has actually seen-meaning AZ also knows them-are more like 69-74%.
Basically, they seem to be doing their best to ride the line of "technically correct" at the cost of making everyone in the scientific community and the FDA question their truthfulness.
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On March 24 2021 06:13 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2021 06:05 Magic Powers wrote:On March 23 2021 19:57 Doublemint wrote:
AZ garbage guys. LL last authority on this, forget FDA, forget EMA and all the other studies showing the opposite. the UK basically going all in on garbage! ^_^
for a change, I kinda like what our government in Austria is trying to do - regional lockdowns based on how infection/incidence rates etc. you cross a threshold, you go into lockdown. basic precautions like ffp2 masks in shops remain across the board, but in Vorarlberg for example coffee shops and restaurants can open and some do, and some vaccinated people enjoy sitting alone in there lol
the problem is that the national government has achieved the impossible, their terrible messaging and then crumbling under the pressure of reality and/or special interest groups (tourism!) split public opinion into 3 parts. one third wishes for stricter lockdowns, one wants to open fully, and another is kinda in the middle lol.
then you have average people mixed in with idiots/right wingers and conspiracy nuts using their new found time at home to poison their minds on social media and going to anti mask and anti lockdown protests fuelled by idiocy and fear of a dictatorship. tu felix Austria indeed! I think there's an obvious reason why people's opinions are so split. In Austria the timeline for government mandates went something like this: - Wear masks (any mask, even scarfs) indoors at all times. Recommended to wear them outside, too. Socially distance as much as possible. -- This was when there was still a notion of potential mask shortages. - Add restrictions on number of people allowed in shops. Restaurants limited to takeaway. - First lockdown over: all mask mandates lifted (roughly around April I believe). Almost no restrictions. Note: at this point there'd been well enough time for politicians to have learned that FFP2 masks should be the only ones being recommended/mandated. It was also known what measures Taiwan had taken to curb the spread (without any lockdowns, only using selective closures and quarantines). - Masks required indoors. -- New recommendations on mask type, surgical masks and cloth masks considered ok (would be used as standard until January 2021). Shops must close between 7 pm and 6 am. - Hard lockdown (roughly November/December): many shops must close. Only essential business allowed to stay open. Takeaway not allowed. - Lockdown lifted, FFP2 masks required everywhere. Takeaway again allowed. It's very obvious that the government failed the people. I knew 10 months before the government that FFP2 masks were the correct type, and I'm just a layperson who does simple research. They could've and should've known this long before our biggest wave in November. They also lifted all mask mandates after the first wave, which makes them seem either dumb/incompetent or not truthful to people. Either masks work or they don't, it's that simple. So some people would start to get very suspicious of the government if their reasoning for mask mandates is that the numbers are going up, but then they would not lift the mask mandates when the numbers have gone down. It's just logical: either the government failed us after the first wave or it failed us now. It was a mistake of our government (or any other) to bet everything on vaccines and lockdowns, especially with such consistently inconsistent messages. Because of this simplistic, unintelligent approach we lost many more lives than necessary and much of our economy, too. To this day still nothing was learned from Taiwan. I must ask why? South Korea clearly learned from them and they don't speak the same language and they don't have the same culture. So why couldn't we? I'm writing this not because I think one side is more right than the other. My point is that mistakes were made on all sides and people lost trust, each for their own individual reasons. It's very important that we talk about the mistakes and learn from them. That debate is quite clearly not happening, because politicians want to cover their a**es. Why are there sides? And who are the sides?
I don't know how to answer your question. Opinions tend to differ from one person to the next. I don't know what the sides are. Some are for a complete and immediate removal of all restrictions. Some are in favor of all or most restrictions. Some are somewhere in the middle. There's a wild mix of opinions, for many different reasons. The only wider consensus that I see is that generally speaking many or possibly even most people agree that our government has failed us.
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Like I said, I knew 10 months before the government that FFP2 masks were the correct ones. They only enforced them after our biggest wave. I don't want to argue about this, to me it's absolutely clear they messed up since the start. And in my opinion they still haven't changed their approach to science, they still lag behind at every step because they refuse to put in any effort outside of their petty, unintelligent politics.
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Northern Ireland27207 Posts
I’m not sure the science really matters vs the perception and the change of behaviours it invokes, in a scenario such as this anyway. People pick and choose what science they like anyway.
Culture dependent of course, in the UK anyway my feeling is a major benefit of lockdown was that the escalation made people take it seriously and start social distancing, which many were cavalier about in the extreme. Even when lockdown was rolled back, adherence to distancing has been rather good in my experience.
Not all cultures require going to defcon 1 to poke the populace into doing the basic things that could have been voluntarily adopted for societal benefit, but such is the UK.
Likewise seeing masks on faces everywhere you go is a pretty visible reminder and a primer that there’s a pandemic going on and to behave yourself.
A bit grim really but I don’t think you get compliance solely from goodwill at this point, the fear factor has to be rammed home.
There are of course many negatives to this, first and foremost being people walking around with a false sense of security in masks that are ineffective to utterly useless.
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On March 24 2021 08:38 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2021 08:31 Magic Powers wrote:
Like I said, I knew 10 months before the government that FFP2 masks were the correct ones. They only enforced them after our biggest wave. I don't want to argue about this, to me it's absolutely clear they messed up since the start. And in my opinion they still haven't changed their approach to science, they still lag behind at every step because they refuse to put in any effort outside of their petty, unintelligent politics. First you're making huge generalizations about "government" based on your particular one. And then secondly I did not say anyone was perfect or did not make mistakes. In general they should have listened to doctors more and been firmer and more consistent. But the reality is the people they represent did not want this, and still do not want this.
I specifically referred to the Austrian government, I don't know why you'd infer that I was referring to a bunch of them.
I also did not say the government "isn't perfect", I'm saying they messed up. Messed up.
I'm not a scientist, I didn't even go to university, and I knew better than they did how the science works. That, to me, is inexcusable. It's their job to protect us, we depend on them. Otherwise they're just people with too much power.
The people mostly followed their mandates. They did put on the masks, and they made the switch to FFP2 immediately. The people are not at fault, they're not the ones leading the country, they do not make policy. It's the politicians' fault and I stand by this.
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On March 24 2021 08:51 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2021 08:38 JimmiC wrote:On March 24 2021 08:31 Magic Powers wrote:
Like I said, I knew 10 months before the government that FFP2 masks were the correct ones. They only enforced them after our biggest wave. I don't want to argue about this, to me it's absolutely clear they messed up since the start. And in my opinion they still haven't changed their approach to science, they still lag behind at every step because they refuse to put in any effort outside of their petty, unintelligent politics. First you're making huge generalizations about "government" based on your particular one. And then secondly I did not say anyone was perfect or did not make mistakes. In general they should have listened to doctors more and been firmer and more consistent. But the reality is the people they represent did not want this, and still do not want this. I specifically referred to the Austrian government, I don't know why you'd infer that I was referring to a bunch of them. I also did not say the government "isn't perfect", I'm saying they messed up. Messed up.I'm not a scientist, I didn't even go to university, and I knew better than they did how the science works. That, to me, is inexcusable. It's their job to protect us, we depend on them. Otherwise they're just people with too much power. The people mostly followed their mandates. They did put on the masks, and they made the switch to FFP2 immediately. The people are not at fault, they're not the ones leading the country, they do not make policy. It's the politicians' fault and I stand by this.
You can add the German government to the list of "governments that failed"
People would have cried for immediate re-elections at this point and I think the only reasons they didn't is A, we have a pandemic going around and B, elections are in 6 month anyway.
+ Show Spoiler +half of CDU is a bunch of criminals and should be put into jail. The populations suffers and meanwhile they try to put money into their own pockets...tax fraud, give overpriced contracts to related persons,...
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Absolute agreed. The one positive thing about this pandemic is that it shows just how corrupt the CDU/CSU are. I hope people won't forget until the election in autumn.
That in itself would be bad enough, but there is also the utter incompetence in dealing with the pandemic after the first few months. Somehow, the initial reactions in spring 2020 worked out pretty well. But everything after that was just completely absurd incompetence leading to ever rising numbers and a nearly out-of control second wave during winter 2020, crowned by the utterly inexplicable decision to open up amidst numbers rising again due to the british mutation a few weeks ago, just after we barely got the second wave slightly under control. As expected, numbers didn't stop rising, and now they are talking about how very unexpected that is (it is not), and that we need to pull the emergency break.
I have literally no explanation for the decisions our government took with regards to the corona pandemic since at least september 2020. It is not that they made bad decisions for reasonable reasons, but that they made obviously bad decisions, which was obvious to everyone even slightly looking at what was going on, and which also very clearly had no upsides for anyone involved.
In May and June 2020 i was proud of how Germany handled the pandemic. This has now turned into confused disappointment.
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LOOOOOL
30mio doses of AZ found in an Italian warehouse. AZ tried to hide them from the EU
Source follows shortly
German Source
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On March 24 2021 20:16 Simberto wrote:
In May and June 2020 i was proud of how Germany handled the pandemic. This has now turned into confused disappointment.
That is put very mildy. I am angry. Very angry
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governments failing is quite the statement. could they have done - MUCH - better. absolutely. if states like Germany failed, what about the whole Americas with North and South?
as already said the turning point was summer/slightly before summer last year, we had the spread stopped and very well under control and basically on the way to an "asian like success story" with hard lockdowns and subsequent successes due to high discipline. then politicians heard the siren song of the tourism industry/general economic interests and opened up most industries and well - everything went to shit. after that discipline crumbled, cases surged and governments communication got more erratic. which started a vicious cycle.
and to not fully lose ppl they wanted them to at least have some semblance of normalcy among the lockdown bleakness by allowing them to come together on christmas for example. the very predictable outcome was the deadly covid winter.
there are eery similarities to the refugee crisis with politicians seeing the problem emerge from afar and not reacting, then being overwhelmed and acting hard and kinda efficiently. then you had a similar breaking point and things turn to shit. to the pitty of governments - you cannot direct your own failures onto a scapegoat this time and play tough guy with a virus. bad leaders are exposed as the idiots they are.
and vote the corrupt fucks out. they will be corrupt no matter what, and they thrive in crisis as they also tend to be the ones with the biggest mouths or simply slickest words. if you don't draw the line you normalise such behaviour. I feel your pain, Austria and Germany are perpetually Conservative countries. a shakeup every once in a while would help
ad AZ, Pfizer et al being asswipes.
https://www.faz.net/aktuell/wirtschaft/astrazeneca-lagert-riesige-mengen-corona-impfstoff-in-italien-17260825.html
... yeah told ya. they fuck us over because we like to bargain when we buy our medications. sanctions - now. for breach of contract, audit the fuck out of them. throw the fucking kitchensink at them. asswipes.
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english source for the "AZ hoarding ~30 mio. doses in italy."
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-56509521
Meanwhile, millions of AZ doses have reportedly been found in Italy.
La Stampa website says some 29 million vaccine doses due to be shipped to the UK were being stored at the Catalent plant in Anagni near Rome but were discovered by Italian inspectors as part of an investigation by the European Commission.
When asked by the BBC about the report, the foreign ministry in Rome and the Italian prime minister's office refused to comment. The plant has a contract with AstraZeneca to "fill and finish" its vaccines and is set to do the same for the Johnson & Johnson vaccine, also approved for use in the EU.
to put that into context - those doses represent about TWICE of what AZ already delivered into the EU. they are way behind on agreed upon doses - but mainly to the EU member states driving a hard bargain. funny how that works out.
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Norway28866 Posts
Norway has had its own political scandal. Our Prime Minister Erna Solberg, whose handling of the pandemic was a source of respect across the politial spectrum, fucked up hard.
Firstly a lot of people are starting to get tired of some groups being insufficiently taken care of, and think that the right wing politics is entirely misplaced for this period of time. (Contrast with the first months, where she/the conservative party got props for adopting more social democratic policies, specifically because they are considered more suitable for a crisis situation where a lot of people's livelihoods were thrown into jeopardy and where their regular source of income disappeared.)
Secondly, she's been part of the team that communicates what rules apply for Norwegians on a weekly basis. But while one absolute rule was 'no more than 10 people in any social gathering', she had 14 people (all family members) present for her own 60th birthday in February. Knowing that a whole lot of people have not celebrated birthdays (Norwegians have overall really impressed me with their willingness to adhere to rules and guidelines), having her claim 'I didn't understand that this was defined as an arrangement' while saying 'I am sorry and I understand that people are upset' has rubbed a whole lot of people the wrong way - and, indeed, seems to have somewhat changed the mood, in a 'If she's not fucking willing to do it, then I'm not gonna, either' type of way.
I've never been fond of her politics, but I've always respected her as a competent person free of personal scandals - and I also gave her credit at the start of the pandemic for seemingly disregarding some of her ideological biases for what was a more suitable political choice for that particular time. (Generally a big fan of Keynesian politics). And frankly I'm somewhat shocked to see that she did something this stupid.
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Merkel reversed her policy for a hard lockdown over Easter in Germany.
https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/world/angela-merkel-reverses-plans-for-easter-covid-lockdown-in-germany/ar-BB1eUJhA?ocid=uxbndlbing
Angela Merkel has performed a U-turn on plans to put Germany under a hard lockdown over Easter following a critical backlash, describing the decision to close churches and shops over a five-day period as a “mistake”.
Addressing the public at a press conference on Wednesday morning, the German chancellor said the plan for an Easter lockdown had been her personal mistake, “and mistakes should to be called out as such”.
Merkel said she regretted that her proposal had caused further uncertainty and asked for forgiveness from the German public, whose growing frustration with the government’s cumbersome decision-making and glacial vaccine rollout is threatening to damager her party ahead of national elections in September.
Following an acrimonious summit between the German chancellor and the heads of the country’s 16 federal states on Monday, Merkel had announced an extension of the partial lockdown until 18 April, as well as a tightening of restrictions from 1-5 April designed to “break the exponential growth of the third wave”.
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So, i still have no clue what our current strategy is. Seems to mostly be "Maybe the problem will solve itself?". As a teacher, i feel completely fucked over right now. I am supposed to regularly interact with 12-15 children in the same room, with the hope that regularly opening the windows will stop the spread of the disease. Apparently testing of the students is supposed to begin after the easter holidays, but literally no one has any idea how that is supposed to work. And of course, teachers are still not a priority for vaccinations, so i don't get one yet, either.
The mistake was not to have a lockdown over easter. The mistake is to not do anything right now, and just kind of coast onwards. The mistake was opening up when numbers were already rising a few weeks ago and the british mutation was spreading like wildfire. The mistake was not doing anything in september and october of last year when we still had the situation under control, and not doing enough in november when it was clear that we are losing control.
I guess they hope that vaccines and "more testing" will save us, but they don't seem to make any steps towards more vaccines or more testing.
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The mistake was that a "lockdown over easter" does exactly nothing! "we are closing for two days, everything will be alright!"? That was pure bullshit!
But you are wrong with rising numbers _before_ we opened things (espacially schools...) up! Everything was going down!
I'm currently reading a lot about that Portugal is doing so great and "why is Germany not doing the same?". And I'm confused, because with very slight differences in dusk-to-dawn curfews, Germany _did_ the same as Portugal... until the end of February! So I take from that, that it was "just" much to early to open!
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EPT
