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On March 23 2021 19:57 Doublemint wrote:
AZ garbage guys. LL last authority on this, forget FDA, forget EMA and all the other studies showing the opposite. the UK basically going all in on garbage! ^_^
for a change, I kinda like what our government in Austria is trying to do - regional lockdowns based on how infection/incidence rates etc. you cross a threshold, you go into lockdown. basic precautions like ffp2 masks in shops remain across the board, but in Vorarlberg for example coffee shops and restaurants can open and some do, and some vaccinated people enjoy sitting alone in there lol
the problem is that the national government has achieved the impossible, their terrible messaging and then crumbling under the pressure of reality and/or special interest groups (tourism!) split public opinion into 3 parts. one third wishes for stricter lockdowns, one wants to open fully, and another is kinda in the middle lol.
then you have average people mixed in with idiots/right wingers and conspiracy nuts using their new found time at home to poison their minds on social media and going to anti mask and anti lockdown protests fuelled by idiocy and fear of a dictatorship. tu felix Austria indeed!
I'm glad you said it so I don't have to
pretty sure the AZ ones the winner atm on account of the fridge as the only requirement for storage
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yeah as usual people not caring for the rules/idiots are the problem with such policies. so... fingers crossed I guess...
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On March 23 2021 20:15 Zealos wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2021 19:57 Doublemint wrote:
AZ garbage guys. LL last authority on this, forget FDA, forget EMA and all the other studies showing the opposite. the UK basically going all in on garbage! ^_^
for a change, I kinda like what our government in Austria is trying to do - regional lockdowns based on how infection/incidence rates etc. you cross a threshold, you go into lockdown. basic precautions like ffp2 masks in shops remain across the board, but in Vorarlberg for example coffee shops and restaurants can open and some do, and some vaccinated people enjoy sitting alone in there lol
the problem is that the national government has achieved the impossible, their terrible messaging and then crumbling under the pressure of reality and/or special interest groups (tourism!) split public opinion into 3 parts. one third wishes for stricter lockdowns, one wants to open fully, and another is kinda in the middle lol.
then you have average people mixed in with idiots/right wingers and conspiracy nuts using their new found time at home to poison their minds on social media and going to anti mask and anti lockdown protests fuelled by idiocy and fear of a dictatorship. tu felix Austria indeed! I'm glad you said it so I don't have to pretty sure the AZ ones the winner atm on account of the fridge as the only requirement for storage
yeah the fridge/logistics issue is huge. not so much in richer countries, but even then there can be problems. the AZ vaccine is a very well rounded vaccine. J&J with just one shot necessary could be pretty good alternative as well.
what people als have to keep in mind... we are literally discussing first world problems here on a for the most part "first world" internet forum.
as much as it sucks for the EU that others ordered vaccines at a higher pricepoint and earlier - which kinda amounts to what some would like to criticize the EU for - export stops. make no mistake that's what's happening in the US for example...their doses have to come from somewhere, right? but no one for some reason gives them shit for it...
no matter, my point is that we are getting the best vaccines - first. even as it seems we are "falling behind". that's myopia at its finest.
developing nations or below have to be happy with donations, actually sub par ( in comparison to Pfizer etc...) Chinese vaccines or nothing at all. which is going to be an interesting discussion in the making as people surely would like to make holidays abroad in more exotic places at some later point in time.
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Every month of longer restrictions is more detrimental for the economy than a couple more billions for vaccines.
Though this gamble might still become a win for the EU due to the disruption in supply rendering any advantage one might have gained through pre-ordering the vaccines void.
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On March 23 2021 20:08 Silvanel wrote:
Poland tried regional restrcitions/lockdowns but it didnt work out. However our COVID related policies are mess, so maybe it will work out for other countries.
Were people allowed to travel from region to region? That would defeat the purpose of region-locking certain regulations, similar to how different states in the USA having more/less strict rules, but it doesn't mean much if Americans are driving between states for work, to visit families/friends, etc. without quarantining.
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The main point with the article collection was that when forbidding very basic rights like to work and run businesses, closing schools and even forbidding walks outside, "it might necessary" should not be an acceptable argument. It had never been done before, and will hopefully never be done again. We were all part of a giant experiment for clueless politicians and healthcare experts to look responsable, and we largely still are.
Both the media and a large part of the population plays along, as fear is an incredibly powerful force, but makes us forget about thinking rationally.
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You guys have to remember that LL is a libertarian that fundamentally doesn't put any authority into authorities of any sort. Trying to appeal to him about a social contract that he doesn't agree with or believe he's bound to or academics that he doesn't believe should dictate to him how he should live is pointless.
I think we should all take the win that he's supporting the vaccine effort enough to get one relatively early. Nettles seems like hes a vaccine denyer and that's what we should be hammering on at this point.
And If you really want someone to say that they love lockdowns I'll volunteer. I love the government not making mass graves and having more of my family and/or me alive.
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On March 24 2021 00:00 Sermokala wrote:
You guys have to remember that LL is a libertarian that fundamentally doesn't put any authority into authorities of any sort. Trying to appeal to him about a social contract that he doesn't agree with or believe he's bound to or academics that he doesn't believe should dictate to him how he should live is pointless.
I think we should all take the win that he's supporting the vaccine effort enough to get one relatively early. Nettles seems like hes a vaccine denyer and that's what we should be hammering on at this point.
And If you really want someone to say that they love lockdowns I'll volunteer. I love the government not making mass graves and having more of my family and/or me alive.
But i doubt that you would support a lockdown if there were no pandemic, which is what "loves lockdowns" implies to me. If you love something, you see it as an ends in itself, not as a means to some other end.
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On March 23 2021 23:57 Slydie wrote:
The main point with the article collection was that when forbidding very basic rights like to work and run businesses, closing schools and even forbidding walks outside, "it might necessary" should not be an acceptable argument. It had never been done before, and will hopefully never be done again. We were all part of a giant experiment for clueless politicians and healthcare experts to look responsable, and we largely still are.
Both the media and a large part of the population plays along, as fear is an incredibly powerful force, but makes us forget about thinking rationally. The thing is tho that most places that have gone that far first tried lesser methods and those failed to reduce the reproduction rate to below 1.
Just social distancing and wearing masks wasn't enough
Asking everyone who could to work from home was not enough
Closing bars was not enough.
Closing schools was not enough.
Even a curfew on top of all that was not enough in places.
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On March 23 2021 21:46 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2021 20:08 Silvanel wrote:
Poland tried regional restrcitions/lockdowns but it didnt work out. However our COVID related policies are mess, so maybe it will work out for other countries. Were people allowed to travel from region to region? That would defeat the purpose of region-locking certain regulations, similar to how different states in the USA having more/less strict rules, but it doesn't mean much if Americans are driving between states for work, to visit families/friends, etc. without quarantining.
They were.
Also in Poland we are extremly dissastisfied with how our government is handling the pandemy so a lot of people disobey the rules anyway.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
On March 23 2021 20:15 Zealos wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2021 19:57 Doublemint wrote:
AZ garbage guys. LL last authority on this, forget FDA, forget EMA and all the other studies showing the opposite. the UK basically going all in on garbage! ^_^
for a change, I kinda like what our government in Austria is trying to do - regional lockdowns based on how infection/incidence rates etc. you cross a threshold, you go into lockdown. basic precautions like ffp2 masks in shops remain across the board, but in Vorarlberg for example coffee shops and restaurants can open and some do, and some vaccinated people enjoy sitting alone in there lol
the problem is that the national government has achieved the impossible, their terrible messaging and then crumbling under the pressure of reality and/or special interest groups (tourism!) split public opinion into 3 parts. one third wishes for stricter lockdowns, one wants to open fully, and another is kinda in the middle lol.
then you have average people mixed in with idiots/right wingers and conspiracy nuts using their new found time at home to poison their minds on social media and going to anti mask and anti lockdown protests fuelled by idiocy and fear of a dictatorship. tu felix Austria indeed! I'm glad you said it so I don't have to pretty sure the AZ ones the winner atm on account of the fridge as the only requirement for storage
Even among adenovirus vaccines (AZ, Sputnik, J&J) it's not really that great. Useless against the South Africa strain as well, which is worrisome and seems to be unique to AstraZeneca. Honestly based on that last factor I'd probably favor J&J since the efficacy is otherwise pretty similar between the two and there is merit to a single-dose answer.
The main advantage it seems to have is that it's cheap and mass produced, which is certainly important, but folks in the US can consider themselves fortunate that the mainline vaccines are better. If the only vaccine you can get is AZ, you may indeed be forced into a situation where you're vaccinated but getting infected and spreading the disease are still a serious threat. When the vaccine you use has a 90%+ efficacy against symptomatic disease, that becomes far more rare of a scenario.
Not that any of this is my unique view, mind you - AstraZeneca seems to be on par with the Chinese vaccines in terms of well-earned skepticism due to spotty real world results. Just in the past day: sold off in South Africa due to low efficacy, US results questioned - and new controversies weekly at this point.
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On March 23 2021 23:57 Slydie wrote:
The main point with the article collection was that when forbidding very basic rights like to work and run businesses, closing schools and even forbidding walks outside, "it might necessary" should not be an acceptable argument. It had never been done before, and will hopefully never be done again. We were all part of a giant experiment for clueless politicians and healthcare experts to look responsable, and we largely still are.
Both the media and a large part of the population plays along, as fear is an incredibly powerful force, but makes us forget about thinking rationally.
My exact thoughts
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On March 24 2021 01:01 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2021 00:29 LegalLord wrote:On March 23 2021 20:15 Zealos wrote:On March 23 2021 19:57 Doublemint wrote:
AZ garbage guys. LL last authority on this, forget FDA, forget EMA and all the other studies showing the opposite. the UK basically going all in on garbage! ^_^
for a change, I kinda like what our government in Austria is trying to do - regional lockdowns based on how infection/incidence rates etc. you cross a threshold, you go into lockdown. basic precautions like ffp2 masks in shops remain across the board, but in Vorarlberg for example coffee shops and restaurants can open and some do, and some vaccinated people enjoy sitting alone in there lol
the problem is that the national government has achieved the impossible, their terrible messaging and then crumbling under the pressure of reality and/or special interest groups (tourism!) split public opinion into 3 parts. one third wishes for stricter lockdowns, one wants to open fully, and another is kinda in the middle lol.
then you have average people mixed in with idiots/right wingers and conspiracy nuts using their new found time at home to poison their minds on social media and going to anti mask and anti lockdown protests fuelled by idiocy and fear of a dictatorship. tu felix Austria indeed! I'm glad you said it so I don't have to pretty sure the AZ ones the winner atm on account of the fridge as the only requirement for storage Even among adenovirus vaccines (AZ, Sputnik, J&J) it's not really that great. Useless against the South Africa strain as well, which is worrisome and seems to be unique to AstraZeneca. Honestly based on that last factor I'd probably favor J&J since the efficacy is otherwise pretty similar between the two and there is merit to a single-dose answer. The main advantage it seems to have is that it's cheap and mass produced, which is certainly important, but folks in the US can consider themselves fortunate that the mainline vaccines are better. If the only vaccine you can get is AZ, you may indeed be forced into a situation where you're vaccinated but getting infected and spreading the disease are still a serious threat. When the vaccine you use has a 90%+ efficacy against symptomatic disease, that becomes far more rare of a scenario. Not that any of this is my unique view, mind you - AstraZeneca seems to be on par with the Chinese vaccines in terms of well-earned skepticism due to spotty real world results. Can you source any of that? Didn't AZ just produce 80% efficacy on symptoms and 100% for hospitalization and death? Was that not similar to moderna and pfizer in their trials and then it was better in real world? This along with your take on masks makes it hard to take anything you write serious, it appears to be just made up.
I think it's mostly in reference to AZ efficacy on SA strain, where it moves you something like 10% down the sliding scale of severity. Death is very unlikely, hospitalization is unlikely, but beyond that it's still catching covid. Study/deployment was stopped because it barely showed any effects. It's better than nothing, but definitely better to grab something else if at all possible.
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For me the takeaway regarding lockdowns is that the starting timing and extent of limitations matter more than length. Doing something like China where you basically put a region into martial law, not even going out shopping for food seems to work.
Contact tracing and limit movement into the region also seems to work once you get it down to a very low level.
Problem to me seems to be going the middle road. Not doing full close downs and then stopping travel. Instead doing half lockdowns to keep up with hospital capacity, meaning it ends up taking a year to slowly climb towards herd immunity.
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On March 24 2021 02:35 Amui wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2021 01:01 JimmiC wrote:On March 24 2021 00:29 LegalLord wrote:On March 23 2021 20:15 Zealos wrote:On March 23 2021 19:57 Doublemint wrote:
AZ garbage guys. LL last authority on this, forget FDA, forget EMA and all the other studies showing the opposite. the UK basically going all in on garbage! ^_^
for a change, I kinda like what our government in Austria is trying to do - regional lockdowns based on how infection/incidence rates etc. you cross a threshold, you go into lockdown. basic precautions like ffp2 masks in shops remain across the board, but in Vorarlberg for example coffee shops and restaurants can open and some do, and some vaccinated people enjoy sitting alone in there lol
the problem is that the national government has achieved the impossible, their terrible messaging and then crumbling under the pressure of reality and/or special interest groups (tourism!) split public opinion into 3 parts. one third wishes for stricter lockdowns, one wants to open fully, and another is kinda in the middle lol.
then you have average people mixed in with idiots/right wingers and conspiracy nuts using their new found time at home to poison their minds on social media and going to anti mask and anti lockdown protests fuelled by idiocy and fear of a dictatorship. tu felix Austria indeed! I'm glad you said it so I don't have to pretty sure the AZ ones the winner atm on account of the fridge as the only requirement for storage Even among adenovirus vaccines (AZ, Sputnik, J&J) it's not really that great. Useless against the South Africa strain as well, which is worrisome and seems to be unique to AstraZeneca. Honestly based on that last factor I'd probably favor J&J since the efficacy is otherwise pretty similar between the two and there is merit to a single-dose answer. The main advantage it seems to have is that it's cheap and mass produced, which is certainly important, but folks in the US can consider themselves fortunate that the mainline vaccines are better. If the only vaccine you can get is AZ, you may indeed be forced into a situation where you're vaccinated but getting infected and spreading the disease are still a serious threat. When the vaccine you use has a 90%+ efficacy against symptomatic disease, that becomes far more rare of a scenario. Not that any of this is my unique view, mind you - AstraZeneca seems to be on par with the Chinese vaccines in terms of well-earned skepticism due to spotty real world results. Can you source any of that? Didn't AZ just produce 80% efficacy on symptoms and 100% for hospitalization and death? Was that not similar to moderna and pfizer in their trials and then it was better in real world? This along with your take on masks makes it hard to take anything you write serious, it appears to be just made up. I think it's mostly in reference to AZ efficacy on SA strain, where it moves you something like 10% down the sliding scale of severity. Death is very unlikely, hospitalization is unlikely, but beyond that it's still catching covid. Study/deployment was stopped because it barely showed any effects. It's better than nothing, but definitely better to grab something else if at all possible.
iirc, both Pfizer and Moderna demonstrated that vaccinated people who still caught coronavirus demonstrated much less severe symptoms. Assuming that AZ is similarly effective in that respect, catching coronavirus after being vaccinated with AZ (which would still be rare in the first place) might not be as big a deal as an unvaccinated person catching it.
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Yes NZ and Australia did a good job but don't underestimate the impact of geographical situations.
Neither situation is comparable to the US or EU imo.
Communities are to interwoven to be able to isolate and contain in quite the same fashion over here.
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EPT
