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Agreed with Zambrah here.
Literally just after a failed coup attempt is the literal best opportunity the not-totally-insane parts of the US will have to make major political reforms.
After months of delayed stimulus, during an actual pandemic, is the best possible time to start bringing your healthcare and social safety net to somewhere only marginally behind the rest of the developed world.
For all this to happen at a time when the less insane party controls everything is quite possibly the single best opportunity that will appear in a 50 year window either direction for any meaningful change to begin.
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On January 09 2021 04:42 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2021 04:38 StasisField wrote:On January 09 2021 04:24 JimmiC wrote:On January 09 2021 04:21 Gorsameth wrote:On January 09 2021 04:15 JimmiC wrote:On January 09 2021 01:45 StasisField wrote:On January 09 2021 00:22 JimmiC wrote:
I could live with that. It would not be as satisfying but if he ends up poor and in jail and the country does not burn that might be the best of a bunch of not great options. Y'all do realize Trump's base is going to be furious no matter why he's in prison, right? Whether it's because of his actions as President or his actions as a businessman, the reaction will be about the same. They revere the man as a god and think he can do no wrong. They'll believe that whatever charges brought against him are all fabricated in an attempt to oppress them and their leader. They'll be fed dangerous propaganda from OANN, Newsmax, Fox News, etc, and we'll have more events like the storming of the Capitol. There's no point in charging Trump with state crimes, letting his failed coup attempt slide, and hoping his base accepts his fate because they aren't going to be okay with it and we will have just told all future aspiring fascist dictators in this country that weaponizing our own countrymen against us and staging a coup is completely acceptable. I don't think you are at all wrong with the Trump acolytes. I was more meaning the republican voters that are not fully engrained in the cult yet. But you could also just be right with all of them. 74 million Americans saw what Trump did during 4 years and said to themselves "I'm ok with this". The excuse of "we don't know how it will turn out" from 2016 was gone, and he got MORE votes then before. I think that says something about how deep the Republican party is in Trumps pocket. I'm not apologizing for them. I'm saying you have to live with them, so what is the best way to move forward. So how you have to punish Trump and bring back to reality as many people as possible. And not punishing the President for his crimes as the President further perpetuates this fantasy land that so many people are currently living in. If we want to bring people back to reality, we need to hit them with a hard dose of reality. Acting like Trump's attempted coup was legal and justified will do nothing but reaffirm the beliefs of and embolden those who follow him. Where did I state we should act like it was either legal or justified?
You didn't but that's the message we will send if we don't attempt to prosecute Trump for his actions.
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On January 09 2021 04:58 StasisField wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2021 04:31 Gorsameth wrote:On January 09 2021 04:24 JimmiC wrote:On January 09 2021 04:21 Gorsameth wrote:On January 09 2021 04:15 JimmiC wrote:On January 09 2021 01:45 StasisField wrote:On January 09 2021 00:22 JimmiC wrote:
I could live with that. It would not be as satisfying but if he ends up poor and in jail and the country does not burn that might be the best of a bunch of not great options. Y'all do realize Trump's base is going to be furious no matter why he's in prison, right? Whether it's because of his actions as President or his actions as a businessman, the reaction will be about the same. They revere the man as a god and think he can do no wrong. They'll believe that whatever charges brought against him are all fabricated in an attempt to oppress them and their leader. They'll be fed dangerous propaganda from OANN, Newsmax, Fox News, etc, and we'll have more events like the storming of the Capitol. There's no point in charging Trump with state crimes, letting his failed coup attempt slide, and hoping his base accepts his fate because they aren't going to be okay with it and we will have just told all future aspiring fascist dictators in this country that weaponizing our own countrymen against us and staging a coup is completely acceptable. I don't think you are at all wrong with the Trump acolytes. I was more meaning the republican voters that are not fully engrained in the cult yet. But you could also just be right with all of them. 74 million Americans saw what Trump did during 4 years and said to themselves "I'm ok with this". The excuse of "we don't know how it will turn out" from 2016 was gone, and he got MORE votes then before. I think that says something about how deep the Republican party is in Trumps pocket. I'm not apologizing for them. I'm saying you have to live with them, so what is the best way to move forward. So how you have to punish Trump and bring back to reality as many people as possible. I don't think you can bring them back, those who saw 4 years of Trump and now the attack on the capitol and still support him? They are a lost cause. You can only hope to stop them from indoctrinating the next generation but that means removing Fox News and its ilk and then you get the slippery slope of how much are you willing to limit and censor free speech in order to preserve democratic ideals? I don't believe people are lost causes. You can always bring someone back from indoctrination. I consume a lot of media on Youtube and I watch a few channels that often talk about political events on there. One channel in particular that I watch did a channel survey where they asked their audience what they considered themselves politically in 2016 vs what they considered themselves in 2020. There was a massive shift from a large amount of people being in the center or on the right to a clear majority being leftwing. This same Youtuber gets messages all the time thanking them for pulling them out of the alt-right rabbit hole many people have fallen into. I know this isn't a scientific study, it's just a dumb little Youtuber poll and some anecdotes, but I think it shows that people can leave indoctrination. Another example is Daryl Davis, a black man who actively meets and befriends Klan members. He has gotten so many racists to give up their robes and to give up their hateful beliefs. And these aren't just regular members he's swayed either. Roger Kelly, the Imperial Wizard of the Klan in Maryland, eventually gave his robe to Daryl Davis and left the Klan for good. I think people are far too quick to abandon those they see as abhorrent.
I agree, imagine the kind of shifts we could see in the Trump voter if we did as farv suggested and focused on rural renewal plans. On economic relief and prosperity for the downtrodden classes of America. Democrats would have their die hard base and they'd have a portion of the enthusiastic Trump base in the rural communities.
Ive also been watching YouTube and I saw a video about how Democratic politics are so often about scolding. That Trump ran and won and did so well despite losing reelection because Americans are fundamentally racist and awful.
What if they're not all ultra-racists, what if they're actually extremely disenfranchised people who are clawing for a way to see some change in their lives? Theres a lot of power to be gained from appealing to these people who feel like politics has utterly abandoned them, who reflect a portion of the US populace that is so ignored and belittled and it will accept a Donald Trump if they feel it gives them a voice.
If Democrats have any real interest in a better America then it will fight the rank and file republicans tooth and nail and work to win the hearts and minds of the disenfranchised rural working class, imo.
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On January 09 2021 04:30 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2021 03:29 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On January 09 2021 01:39 Oukka wrote:
So is the reason Dems are moving slowly with impeachment to make it easier for Republican senators to swallow? Like holding the senate trials and votes a day or two before Trump's term ends gives them a chance to stand on the side of law, and could be sold to the electorate (excluding the hardest Trumpists obviously) as a necessary move. Basically let the hottest feelings cool down a bit but then go through the removal vote to take at least a cosmetic stance. Also would solve their Trump 2024 problem, having him legally barred from running may make their next years easier if they are truly willing to move past Trump.
I mean I hope there is some sort of negotiations going between the party whips on how to move on. I don't think dems want to impeach again without removal from office, and I'd like to hope that sufficient amount of R senators see this is as an impeachable offence. I think the fact that the MAGA crowd are turning on the establishment Republicans (even Pence being targeted is a pretty strong indicator that the loyalty of the MAGA+QAnon crowds are to Trump, not to the wider party) may make it easier for McConnell to support impeachment as well. Surely the conservatives won't consider keeping Trump around after this. I'm not convinced that Republican establishment has had control since the tea party at least. Trump is just the first con man to take the reigns of the misinformation fed to these people every day. There is a reason half the Republican house voted against democracy after a failed coup and the country is electing QANON nut jobs. I know Danglars posted about Republicans recovering down the line, but I'd be very interested in hearing how that happens. Almost every notable Republican in the past two decades has been denounced as a RINO as the party shifts further and further right. Ted Cruz has already jumped further down the MAGA road and I expect any Republican who wants a future in politics to do the same because Trumpism is Republican at this point. Trump has only won one election and then the Republicans lost all branches of government in only 4 years. The republican party also outperformed Trump this election. Trumpism looks like a losing strategy. We'll see but if they keep losing elections I don't see them staying in Trump's grip forever.
I could see a new leader showing up and them all pretending Trump was always a loser and they never liked him anyway as well, but you've got a hundred Republican representatives saying the election shouldn't be certified. You're going to have to explain to me how that is Trumpism losing.
The tea party was able to shutdown the government with a lot fewer people than that.
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On January 09 2021 05:08 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2021 04:58 StasisField wrote:On January 09 2021 04:31 Gorsameth wrote:On January 09 2021 04:24 JimmiC wrote:On January 09 2021 04:21 Gorsameth wrote:On January 09 2021 04:15 JimmiC wrote:On January 09 2021 01:45 StasisField wrote:On January 09 2021 00:22 JimmiC wrote:
I could live with that. It would not be as satisfying but if he ends up poor and in jail and the country does not burn that might be the best of a bunch of not great options. Y'all do realize Trump's base is going to be furious no matter why he's in prison, right? Whether it's because of his actions as President or his actions as a businessman, the reaction will be about the same. They revere the man as a god and think he can do no wrong. They'll believe that whatever charges brought against him are all fabricated in an attempt to oppress them and their leader. They'll be fed dangerous propaganda from OANN, Newsmax, Fox News, etc, and we'll have more events like the storming of the Capitol. There's no point in charging Trump with state crimes, letting his failed coup attempt slide, and hoping his base accepts his fate because they aren't going to be okay with it and we will have just told all future aspiring fascist dictators in this country that weaponizing our own countrymen against us and staging a coup is completely acceptable. I don't think you are at all wrong with the Trump acolytes. I was more meaning the republican voters that are not fully engrained in the cult yet. But you could also just be right with all of them. 74 million Americans saw what Trump did during 4 years and said to themselves "I'm ok with this". The excuse of "we don't know how it will turn out" from 2016 was gone, and he got MORE votes then before. I think that says something about how deep the Republican party is in Trumps pocket. I'm not apologizing for them. I'm saying you have to live with them, so what is the best way to move forward. So how you have to punish Trump and bring back to reality as many people as possible. I don't think you can bring them back, those who saw 4 years of Trump and now the attack on the capitol and still support him? They are a lost cause. You can only hope to stop them from indoctrinating the next generation but that means removing Fox News and its ilk and then you get the slippery slope of how much are you willing to limit and censor free speech in order to preserve democratic ideals? I don't believe people are lost causes. You can always bring someone back from indoctrination. I consume a lot of media on Youtube and I watch a few channels that often talk about political events on there. One channel in particular that I watch did a channel survey where they asked their audience what they considered themselves politically in 2016 vs what they considered themselves in 2020. There was a massive shift from a large amount of people being in the center or on the right to a clear majority being leftwing. This same Youtuber gets messages all the time thanking them for pulling them out of the alt-right rabbit hole many people have fallen into. I know this isn't a scientific study, it's just a dumb little Youtuber poll and some anecdotes, but I think it shows that people can leave indoctrination. Another example is Daryl Davis, a black man who actively meets and befriends Klan members. He has gotten so many racists to give up their robes and to give up their hateful beliefs. And these aren't just regular members he's swayed either. Roger Kelly, the Imperial Wizard of the Klan in Maryland, eventually gave his robe to Daryl Davis and left the Klan for good. I think people are far too quick to abandon those they see as abhorrent. I agree, imagine the kind of shifts we could see in the Trump voter if we did as farv suggested and focused on rural renewal plans. On economic relief and prosperity for the downtrodden classes of America. Democrats would have their die hard base and they'd have a portion of the enthusiastic Trump base in the rural communities. Ive also been watching YouTube and I saw a video about how Democratic politics are so often about scolding. That Trump ran and won and did so well despite losing reelection because Americans are fundamentally racist and awful. What if they're not all ultra-racists, what if they're actually extremely disenfranchised people who are clawing for a way to see some change in their lives? Theres a lot of power to be gained from appealing to these people who feel like politics has utterly abandoned them, who reflect a portion of the US populace that is so ignored and belittled and it will accept a Donald Trump if they feel it gives them a voice. If Democrats have any real interest in a better America then it will fight the rank and file republicans tooth and nail and work to win the hearts and minds of the disenfranchised rural working class, imo. Didn't Hillary run on a bunch of that? People didn't give a shit and Trump won.
They don't want to hear about your plans for rural renewal and economic relief. They want the guy who lies to them and says he will bring coal back, when even the coal companies don't want to.
They want the time when 1 guy working a factory line could support a family of 6.
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On January 09 2021 05:16 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2021 05:08 Zambrah wrote:On January 09 2021 04:58 StasisField wrote:On January 09 2021 04:31 Gorsameth wrote:On January 09 2021 04:24 JimmiC wrote:On January 09 2021 04:21 Gorsameth wrote:On January 09 2021 04:15 JimmiC wrote:On January 09 2021 01:45 StasisField wrote:On January 09 2021 00:22 JimmiC wrote:
I could live with that. It would not be as satisfying but if he ends up poor and in jail and the country does not burn that might be the best of a bunch of not great options. Y'all do realize Trump's base is going to be furious no matter why he's in prison, right? Whether it's because of his actions as President or his actions as a businessman, the reaction will be about the same. They revere the man as a god and think he can do no wrong. They'll believe that whatever charges brought against him are all fabricated in an attempt to oppress them and their leader. They'll be fed dangerous propaganda from OANN, Newsmax, Fox News, etc, and we'll have more events like the storming of the Capitol. There's no point in charging Trump with state crimes, letting his failed coup attempt slide, and hoping his base accepts his fate because they aren't going to be okay with it and we will have just told all future aspiring fascist dictators in this country that weaponizing our own countrymen against us and staging a coup is completely acceptable. I don't think you are at all wrong with the Trump acolytes. I was more meaning the republican voters that are not fully engrained in the cult yet. But you could also just be right with all of them. 74 million Americans saw what Trump did during 4 years and said to themselves "I'm ok with this". The excuse of "we don't know how it will turn out" from 2016 was gone, and he got MORE votes then before. I think that says something about how deep the Republican party is in Trumps pocket. I'm not apologizing for them. I'm saying you have to live with them, so what is the best way to move forward. So how you have to punish Trump and bring back to reality as many people as possible. I don't think you can bring them back, those who saw 4 years of Trump and now the attack on the capitol and still support him? They are a lost cause. You can only hope to stop them from indoctrinating the next generation but that means removing Fox News and its ilk and then you get the slippery slope of how much are you willing to limit and censor free speech in order to preserve democratic ideals? I don't believe people are lost causes. You can always bring someone back from indoctrination. I consume a lot of media on Youtube and I watch a few channels that often talk about political events on there. One channel in particular that I watch did a channel survey where they asked their audience what they considered themselves politically in 2016 vs what they considered themselves in 2020. There was a massive shift from a large amount of people being in the center or on the right to a clear majority being leftwing. This same Youtuber gets messages all the time thanking them for pulling them out of the alt-right rabbit hole many people have fallen into. I know this isn't a scientific study, it's just a dumb little Youtuber poll and some anecdotes, but I think it shows that people can leave indoctrination. Another example is Daryl Davis, a black man who actively meets and befriends Klan members. He has gotten so many racists to give up their robes and to give up their hateful beliefs. And these aren't just regular members he's swayed either. Roger Kelly, the Imperial Wizard of the Klan in Maryland, eventually gave his robe to Daryl Davis and left the Klan for good. I think people are far too quick to abandon those they see as abhorrent. I agree, imagine the kind of shifts we could see in the Trump voter if we did as farv suggested and focused on rural renewal plans. On economic relief and prosperity for the downtrodden classes of America. Democrats would have their die hard base and they'd have a portion of the enthusiastic Trump base in the rural communities. Ive also been watching YouTube and I saw a video about how Democratic politics are so often about scolding. That Trump ran and won and did so well despite losing reelection because Americans are fundamentally racist and awful. What if they're not all ultra-racists, what if they're actually extremely disenfranchised people who are clawing for a way to see some change in their lives? Theres a lot of power to be gained from appealing to these people who feel like politics has utterly abandoned them, who reflect a portion of the US populace that is so ignored and belittled and it will accept a Donald Trump if they feel it gives them a voice. If Democrats have any real interest in a better America then it will fight the rank and file republicans tooth and nail and work to win the hearts and minds of the disenfranchised rural working class, imo. Didn't Hillary run on a bunch of that? People didn't give a shit and Trump won. They don't want to hear about your plans for rural renewal and economic relief. They want the guy who lies to them and says he will bring coal back, when even the coal companies don't want to. They want the time when 1 guy working a factory line could support a family of 6.
I think its a complex series of factors including poor messaging (like contrast Trumps fourth grade vocabulary to Clintons, the fourth grade vocabulary is the level we should be using when appealing to voters imo) and how utterly reviled Hillary Clinton was kind of in general, not to mention how untrustworthy mainstream establishment Democrats are.
She had a lot of factors working against her when it came to appealing to the working class. We need someone who can at least appear to be a political outsider who isnt married to the Democratic party.
On January 09 2021 05:20 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2021 05:04 StasisField wrote:On January 09 2021 04:42 JimmiC wrote:On January 09 2021 04:38 StasisField wrote:On January 09 2021 04:24 JimmiC wrote:On January 09 2021 04:21 Gorsameth wrote:On January 09 2021 04:15 JimmiC wrote:On January 09 2021 01:45 StasisField wrote:On January 09 2021 00:22 JimmiC wrote:
I could live with that. It would not be as satisfying but if he ends up poor and in jail and the country does not burn that might be the best of a bunch of not great options. Y'all do realize Trump's base is going to be furious no matter why he's in prison, right? Whether it's because of his actions as President or his actions as a businessman, the reaction will be about the same. They revere the man as a god and think he can do no wrong. They'll believe that whatever charges brought against him are all fabricated in an attempt to oppress them and their leader. They'll be fed dangerous propaganda from OANN, Newsmax, Fox News, etc, and we'll have more events like the storming of the Capitol. There's no point in charging Trump with state crimes, letting his failed coup attempt slide, and hoping his base accepts his fate because they aren't going to be okay with it and we will have just told all future aspiring fascist dictators in this country that weaponizing our own countrymen against us and staging a coup is completely acceptable. I don't think you are at all wrong with the Trump acolytes. I was more meaning the republican voters that are not fully engrained in the cult yet. But you could also just be right with all of them. 74 million Americans saw what Trump did during 4 years and said to themselves "I'm ok with this". The excuse of "we don't know how it will turn out" from 2016 was gone, and he got MORE votes then before. I think that says something about how deep the Republican party is in Trumps pocket. I'm not apologizing for them. I'm saying you have to live with them, so what is the best way to move forward. So how you have to punish Trump and bring back to reality as many people as possible. And not punishing the President for his crimes as the President further perpetuates this fantasy land that so many people are currently living in. If we want to bring people back to reality, we need to hit them with a hard dose of reality. Acting like Trump's attempted coup was legal and justified will do nothing but reaffirm the beliefs of and embolden those who follow him. Where did I state we should act like it was either legal or justified? You didn't but that's the message we will send if we don't attempt to prosecute Trump for his actions. I don't agree with that. No one thinks what nixon did was Legal or justified, and he didn't end up going to jail for state crimes like Trump would in my scenario.
But if you let Trump off, the next Trump sees, "wow, he incited an armed insurrection and completely desecrated the US Capitol and noone did a thing to him for it. I wonder what I can get away with? A full time occupation maybe?"
If the threat of impeachment and removal of office for actions as heinous as inciting armed insurrection against the US Government yields no consequences whats stopping anyone else from doing it, but doing it more and with more competence?
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On January 09 2021 05:16 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2021 05:08 Zambrah wrote:On January 09 2021 04:58 StasisField wrote:On January 09 2021 04:31 Gorsameth wrote:On January 09 2021 04:24 JimmiC wrote:On January 09 2021 04:21 Gorsameth wrote:On January 09 2021 04:15 JimmiC wrote:On January 09 2021 01:45 StasisField wrote:On January 09 2021 00:22 JimmiC wrote:
I could live with that. It would not be as satisfying but if he ends up poor and in jail and the country does not burn that might be the best of a bunch of not great options. Y'all do realize Trump's base is going to be furious no matter why he's in prison, right? Whether it's because of his actions as President or his actions as a businessman, the reaction will be about the same. They revere the man as a god and think he can do no wrong. They'll believe that whatever charges brought against him are all fabricated in an attempt to oppress them and their leader. They'll be fed dangerous propaganda from OANN, Newsmax, Fox News, etc, and we'll have more events like the storming of the Capitol. There's no point in charging Trump with state crimes, letting his failed coup attempt slide, and hoping his base accepts his fate because they aren't going to be okay with it and we will have just told all future aspiring fascist dictators in this country that weaponizing our own countrymen against us and staging a coup is completely acceptable. I don't think you are at all wrong with the Trump acolytes. I was more meaning the republican voters that are not fully engrained in the cult yet. But you could also just be right with all of them. 74 million Americans saw what Trump did during 4 years and said to themselves "I'm ok with this". The excuse of "we don't know how it will turn out" from 2016 was gone, and he got MORE votes then before. I think that says something about how deep the Republican party is in Trumps pocket. I'm not apologizing for them. I'm saying you have to live with them, so what is the best way to move forward. So how you have to punish Trump and bring back to reality as many people as possible. I don't think you can bring them back, those who saw 4 years of Trump and now the attack on the capitol and still support him? They are a lost cause. You can only hope to stop them from indoctrinating the next generation but that means removing Fox News and its ilk and then you get the slippery slope of how much are you willing to limit and censor free speech in order to preserve democratic ideals? I don't believe people are lost causes. You can always bring someone back from indoctrination. I consume a lot of media on Youtube and I watch a few channels that often talk about political events on there. One channel in particular that I watch did a channel survey where they asked their audience what they considered themselves politically in 2016 vs what they considered themselves in 2020. There was a massive shift from a large amount of people being in the center or on the right to a clear majority being leftwing. This same Youtuber gets messages all the time thanking them for pulling them out of the alt-right rabbit hole many people have fallen into. I know this isn't a scientific study, it's just a dumb little Youtuber poll and some anecdotes, but I think it shows that people can leave indoctrination. Another example is Daryl Davis, a black man who actively meets and befriends Klan members. He has gotten so many racists to give up their robes and to give up their hateful beliefs. And these aren't just regular members he's swayed either. Roger Kelly, the Imperial Wizard of the Klan in Maryland, eventually gave his robe to Daryl Davis and left the Klan for good. I think people are far too quick to abandon those they see as abhorrent. I agree, imagine the kind of shifts we could see in the Trump voter if we did as farv suggested and focused on rural renewal plans. On economic relief and prosperity for the downtrodden classes of America. Democrats would have their die hard base and they'd have a portion of the enthusiastic Trump base in the rural communities. Ive also been watching YouTube and I saw a video about how Democratic politics are so often about scolding. That Trump ran and won and did so well despite losing reelection because Americans are fundamentally racist and awful. What if they're not all ultra-racists, what if they're actually extremely disenfranchised people who are clawing for a way to see some change in their lives? Theres a lot of power to be gained from appealing to these people who feel like politics has utterly abandoned them, who reflect a portion of the US populace that is so ignored and belittled and it will accept a Donald Trump if they feel it gives them a voice. If Democrats have any real interest in a better America then it will fight the rank and file republicans tooth and nail and work to win the hearts and minds of the disenfranchised rural working class, imo. Didn't Hillary run on a bunch of that? People didn't give a shit and Trump won. They don't want to hear about your plans for rural renewal and economic relief. They want the guy who lies to them and says he will bring coal back, when even the coal companies don't want to. They want the time when 1 guy working a factory line could support a family of 6.
And put me on the record for saying those people, as shitty as it sounds, need to be left behind. The good of the country, as has been shown these past 4 years, cannot be hogtied by the minority any longer. You have to do what's best for the country as a whole, even if you disregard 10%. That's the only way to move forward. And you drag them kicking and screaming into the future.
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On January 09 2021 05:16 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2021 05:08 Zambrah wrote:On January 09 2021 04:58 StasisField wrote:On January 09 2021 04:31 Gorsameth wrote:On January 09 2021 04:24 JimmiC wrote:On January 09 2021 04:21 Gorsameth wrote:On January 09 2021 04:15 JimmiC wrote:On January 09 2021 01:45 StasisField wrote:On January 09 2021 00:22 JimmiC wrote:
I could live with that. It would not be as satisfying but if he ends up poor and in jail and the country does not burn that might be the best of a bunch of not great options. Y'all do realize Trump's base is going to be furious no matter why he's in prison, right? Whether it's because of his actions as President or his actions as a businessman, the reaction will be about the same. They revere the man as a god and think he can do no wrong. They'll believe that whatever charges brought against him are all fabricated in an attempt to oppress them and their leader. They'll be fed dangerous propaganda from OANN, Newsmax, Fox News, etc, and we'll have more events like the storming of the Capitol. There's no point in charging Trump with state crimes, letting his failed coup attempt slide, and hoping his base accepts his fate because they aren't going to be okay with it and we will have just told all future aspiring fascist dictators in this country that weaponizing our own countrymen against us and staging a coup is completely acceptable. I don't think you are at all wrong with the Trump acolytes. I was more meaning the republican voters that are not fully engrained in the cult yet. But you could also just be right with all of them. 74 million Americans saw what Trump did during 4 years and said to themselves "I'm ok with this". The excuse of "we don't know how it will turn out" from 2016 was gone, and he got MORE votes then before. I think that says something about how deep the Republican party is in Trumps pocket. I'm not apologizing for them. I'm saying you have to live with them, so what is the best way to move forward. So how you have to punish Trump and bring back to reality as many people as possible. I don't think you can bring them back, those who saw 4 years of Trump and now the attack on the capitol and still support him? They are a lost cause. You can only hope to stop them from indoctrinating the next generation but that means removing Fox News and its ilk and then you get the slippery slope of how much are you willing to limit and censor free speech in order to preserve democratic ideals? I don't believe people are lost causes. You can always bring someone back from indoctrination. I consume a lot of media on Youtube and I watch a few channels that often talk about political events on there. One channel in particular that I watch did a channel survey where they asked their audience what they considered themselves politically in 2016 vs what they considered themselves in 2020. There was a massive shift from a large amount of people being in the center or on the right to a clear majority being leftwing. This same Youtuber gets messages all the time thanking them for pulling them out of the alt-right rabbit hole many people have fallen into. I know this isn't a scientific study, it's just a dumb little Youtuber poll and some anecdotes, but I think it shows that people can leave indoctrination. Another example is Daryl Davis, a black man who actively meets and befriends Klan members. He has gotten so many racists to give up their robes and to give up their hateful beliefs. And these aren't just regular members he's swayed either. Roger Kelly, the Imperial Wizard of the Klan in Maryland, eventually gave his robe to Daryl Davis and left the Klan for good. I think people are far too quick to abandon those they see as abhorrent. I agree, imagine the kind of shifts we could see in the Trump voter if we did as farv suggested and focused on rural renewal plans. On economic relief and prosperity for the downtrodden classes of America. Democrats would have their die hard base and they'd have a portion of the enthusiastic Trump base in the rural communities. Ive also been watching YouTube and I saw a video about how Democratic politics are so often about scolding. That Trump ran and won and did so well despite losing reelection because Americans are fundamentally racist and awful. What if they're not all ultra-racists, what if they're actually extremely disenfranchised people who are clawing for a way to see some change in their lives? Theres a lot of power to be gained from appealing to these people who feel like politics has utterly abandoned them, who reflect a portion of the US populace that is so ignored and belittled and it will accept a Donald Trump if they feel it gives them a voice. If Democrats have any real interest in a better America then it will fight the rank and file republicans tooth and nail and work to win the hearts and minds of the disenfranchised rural working class, imo. Didn't Hillary run on a bunch of that? People didn't give a shit and Trump won. They don't want to hear about your plans for rural renewal and economic relief. They want the guy who lies to them and says he will bring coal back, when even the coal companies don't want to. They want the time when 1 guy working a factory line could support a family of 6.
Hillary ran on a bunch of ever-changing ideas on her platform because she simply molded her platform after what the polls showed every week. No disenfranchised voter trusted her because she represented what had rejected them for years: an opportunistic politician who will say whatever to remain in power. Yes, Trump was lying to them too, but these people desperate for a voice in their own country's politics saw a man who didn't mince his words when he attacked the politicians who had failed them and a man who promised to represent them. There's a reason why a populist movement was born in both rightwing and leftwing politics in America at the same time and it's not because most people feel like most of the people in charge actually care about them.
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United States42887 Posts
On January 09 2021 05:20 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2021 05:04 StasisField wrote:On January 09 2021 04:42 JimmiC wrote:On January 09 2021 04:38 StasisField wrote:On January 09 2021 04:24 JimmiC wrote:On January 09 2021 04:21 Gorsameth wrote:On January 09 2021 04:15 JimmiC wrote:On January 09 2021 01:45 StasisField wrote:On January 09 2021 00:22 JimmiC wrote:
I could live with that. It would not be as satisfying but if he ends up poor and in jail and the country does not burn that might be the best of a bunch of not great options. Y'all do realize Trump's base is going to be furious no matter why he's in prison, right? Whether it's because of his actions as President or his actions as a businessman, the reaction will be about the same. They revere the man as a god and think he can do no wrong. They'll believe that whatever charges brought against him are all fabricated in an attempt to oppress them and their leader. They'll be fed dangerous propaganda from OANN, Newsmax, Fox News, etc, and we'll have more events like the storming of the Capitol. There's no point in charging Trump with state crimes, letting his failed coup attempt slide, and hoping his base accepts his fate because they aren't going to be okay with it and we will have just told all future aspiring fascist dictators in this country that weaponizing our own countrymen against us and staging a coup is completely acceptable. I don't think you are at all wrong with the Trump acolytes. I was more meaning the republican voters that are not fully engrained in the cult yet. But you could also just be right with all of them. 74 million Americans saw what Trump did during 4 years and said to themselves "I'm ok with this". The excuse of "we don't know how it will turn out" from 2016 was gone, and he got MORE votes then before. I think that says something about how deep the Republican party is in Trumps pocket. I'm not apologizing for them. I'm saying you have to live with them, so what is the best way to move forward. So how you have to punish Trump and bring back to reality as many people as possible. And not punishing the President for his crimes as the President further perpetuates this fantasy land that so many people are currently living in. If we want to bring people back to reality, we need to hit them with a hard dose of reality. Acting like Trump's attempted coup was legal and justified will do nothing but reaffirm the beliefs of and embolden those who follow him. Where did I state we should act like it was either legal or justified? You didn't but that's the message we will send if we don't attempt to prosecute Trump for his actions. I don't agree with that. No one thinks what nixon did was Legal or justified, and he didn't end up going to jail for state crimes like Trump would in my scenario.
Half the country thought what Nixon was doing was justified. The only reason he was even forced to resign was due to the lack of state media telling supporters that it was fine. Fox News was explicitly created with the purpose of not allowing a future Nixon to get railroaded by the media. To support Republicans, no matter how in the wrong, so that they could insist that there were always two sides to every issue.
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On January 09 2021 05:20 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2021 05:04 StasisField wrote:On January 09 2021 04:42 JimmiC wrote:On January 09 2021 04:38 StasisField wrote:On January 09 2021 04:24 JimmiC wrote:On January 09 2021 04:21 Gorsameth wrote:On January 09 2021 04:15 JimmiC wrote:On January 09 2021 01:45 StasisField wrote:On January 09 2021 00:22 JimmiC wrote:
I could live with that. It would not be as satisfying but if he ends up poor and in jail and the country does not burn that might be the best of a bunch of not great options. Y'all do realize Trump's base is going to be furious no matter why he's in prison, right? Whether it's because of his actions as President or his actions as a businessman, the reaction will be about the same. They revere the man as a god and think he can do no wrong. They'll believe that whatever charges brought against him are all fabricated in an attempt to oppress them and their leader. They'll be fed dangerous propaganda from OANN, Newsmax, Fox News, etc, and we'll have more events like the storming of the Capitol. There's no point in charging Trump with state crimes, letting his failed coup attempt slide, and hoping his base accepts his fate because they aren't going to be okay with it and we will have just told all future aspiring fascist dictators in this country that weaponizing our own countrymen against us and staging a coup is completely acceptable. I don't think you are at all wrong with the Trump acolytes. I was more meaning the republican voters that are not fully engrained in the cult yet. But you could also just be right with all of them. 74 million Americans saw what Trump did during 4 years and said to themselves "I'm ok with this". The excuse of "we don't know how it will turn out" from 2016 was gone, and he got MORE votes then before. I think that says something about how deep the Republican party is in Trumps pocket. I'm not apologizing for them. I'm saying you have to live with them, so what is the best way to move forward. So how you have to punish Trump and bring back to reality as many people as possible. And not punishing the President for his crimes as the President further perpetuates this fantasy land that so many people are currently living in. If we want to bring people back to reality, we need to hit them with a hard dose of reality. Acting like Trump's attempted coup was legal and justified will do nothing but reaffirm the beliefs of and embolden those who follow him. Where did I state we should act like it was either legal or justified? You didn't but that's the message we will send if we don't attempt to prosecute Trump for his actions. I don't agree with that. No one thinks what nixon did was Legal or justified, and he didn't end up going to jail for state crimes like Trump would in my scenario.
The context of now and then are very different. There weren't massive news conglomerates and swaths of politicians that people listen to excusing Nixon's actions.
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On January 09 2021 05:28 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2021 05:20 JimmiC wrote:On January 09 2021 05:04 StasisField wrote:On January 09 2021 04:42 JimmiC wrote:On January 09 2021 04:38 StasisField wrote:On January 09 2021 04:24 JimmiC wrote:On January 09 2021 04:21 Gorsameth wrote:On January 09 2021 04:15 JimmiC wrote:On January 09 2021 01:45 StasisField wrote:On January 09 2021 00:22 JimmiC wrote:
I could live with that. It would not be as satisfying but if he ends up poor and in jail and the country does not burn that might be the best of a bunch of not great options. Y'all do realize Trump's base is going to be furious no matter why he's in prison, right? Whether it's because of his actions as President or his actions as a businessman, the reaction will be about the same. They revere the man as a god and think he can do no wrong. They'll believe that whatever charges brought against him are all fabricated in an attempt to oppress them and their leader. They'll be fed dangerous propaganda from OANN, Newsmax, Fox News, etc, and we'll have more events like the storming of the Capitol. There's no point in charging Trump with state crimes, letting his failed coup attempt slide, and hoping his base accepts his fate because they aren't going to be okay with it and we will have just told all future aspiring fascist dictators in this country that weaponizing our own countrymen against us and staging a coup is completely acceptable. I don't think you are at all wrong with the Trump acolytes. I was more meaning the republican voters that are not fully engrained in the cult yet. But you could also just be right with all of them. 74 million Americans saw what Trump did during 4 years and said to themselves "I'm ok with this". The excuse of "we don't know how it will turn out" from 2016 was gone, and he got MORE votes then before. I think that says something about how deep the Republican party is in Trumps pocket. I'm not apologizing for them. I'm saying you have to live with them, so what is the best way to move forward. So how you have to punish Trump and bring back to reality as many people as possible. And not punishing the President for his crimes as the President further perpetuates this fantasy land that so many people are currently living in. If we want to bring people back to reality, we need to hit them with a hard dose of reality. Acting like Trump's attempted coup was legal and justified will do nothing but reaffirm the beliefs of and embolden those who follow him. Where did I state we should act like it was either legal or justified? You didn't but that's the message we will send if we don't attempt to prosecute Trump for his actions. I don't agree with that. No one thinks what nixon did was Legal or justified, and he didn't end up going to jail for state crimes like Trump would in my scenario. Half the country thought what Nixon was doing was justified. The only reason he was even forced to resign was due to the lack of state media telling supporters that it was fine. Fox News was explicitly created with the purpose of not allowing a future Nixon to get railroaded by the media. To support Republicans, no matter how in the wrong, so that they could insist that there were always two sides to every issue.
yeah wasn't it mentioned quite some time ago in here that Nixon had 40 something approval rating AFTER watergate? we are fundamentally flawed beings. always were and always will be.
// I mean think about all those people on the steps of the capitol rushing in, live streaming and making happy smiling pics and posting them online. those people will be losing their jobs. will pay hefty fines and/or go to prison. some even died. and for what.
Donald Trump.
let that sink in.
I mean the gods are cruel as fuck and have a sense of humour to top it off.
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Isn't taking a pardon an admission of guilt in the US ?
So you could think that the pardon was ok while still thinking he was guilty of it?
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Does anyone infinitely more educated about these things know if reintroducing/reworking the Fairness Doctrine would be a potentially positive step forward in curbing the onslaught of the media's intellectual malfeasance?
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It's been two days since Trump's violent insurrection. A lot of leaders have been calling for impeachment/conviction and/or the removal of Trump through the 25th amendment, and yet I don't see any progress whatsoever. It would be nice if Representatives/Senators and/or Pence/Cabinet actually took some action, instead of just saying that Trump and his rioters messed up and need to be punished. Punish them!
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The guy who was lounging in Pelosi's office has been arrested. More to come I'm sure.
The Justice Department says Richard Barnett, identified as the man who sat at a desk in House Speaker Nancy Pelosi's office during the siege of the U.S. Capitol by pro-Trump extremists, has been arrested.
Barnett was taken into custody in his home state of Arkansas. His identity and place of residence became a hot topic of discussion online, sparked by the striking photo of him with his feet up on the desk.
Other figures who made headlines at the riot are also now facing charges — including West Virginia state Del. Derrick Evans, a Republican who took office one month ago. Evans streamed video from the Capitol that was widely seen on his Facebook page, showing him on the grounds and just outside the building.
A signed complaint charges Evans with entering a restricted area, Justice Department officials said.
Barnett is being held at the Washington County Sheriff's Office in Fayetteville, Ark., according to Charlie Robbins of the U.S. Attorney's Office for the Western District of Arkansas.
Outrage over the photo and the insurrection in the seat of U.S. democracy triggered a harsh backlash against Barnett's hometown of Gravette, according to Mayor Kurt Maddox, who said on Friday, "Barnett is now in custody of the Federal Bureau of Investigation for a list of pending charges."
Officials have been monitoring the situation closely, the mayor said.
Source
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On January 09 2021 05:41 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
It's been two days since Trump's violent insurrection. A lot of leaders have been calling for impeachment/conviction and/or the removal of Trump through the 25th amendment, and yet I don't see any progress whatsoever. It would be nice if Representatives/Senators and/or Pence/Cabinet actually took some action, instead of just saying that Trump and his rioters messed up and need to be punished. Punish them!
Pence has chickened out of calling the 25th according to rumors. And Pelosi has shoved impeachment forward to next week.
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On January 09 2021 05:44 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:The guy who was lounging in Pelosi's office has been arrested. More to come I'm sure. Show nested quote +The Justice Department says Richard Barnett, identified as the man who sat at a desk in House Speaker Nancy Pelosi's office during the siege of the U.S. Capitol by pro-Trump extremists, has been arrested.
Barnett was taken into custody in his home state of Arkansas. His identity and place of residence became a hot topic of discussion online, sparked by the striking photo of him with his feet up on the desk.
Other figures who made headlines at the riot are also now facing charges — including West Virginia state Del. Derrick Evans, a Republican who took office one month ago. Evans streamed video from the Capitol that was widely seen on his Facebook page, showing him on the grounds and just outside the building.
A signed complaint charges Evans with entering a restricted area, Justice Department officials said.
Barnett is being held at the Washington County Sheriff's Office in Fayetteville, Ark., according to Charlie Robbins of the U.S. Attorney's Office for the Western District of Arkansas.
Outrage over the photo and the insurrection in the seat of U.S. democracy triggered a harsh backlash against Barnett's hometown of Gravette, according to Mayor Kurt Maddox, who said on Friday, "Barnett is now in custody of the Federal Bureau of Investigation for a list of pending charges."
Officials have been monitoring the situation closely, the mayor said. Source
If Trump hands this guy a pardon, I expect riots.
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EPT
