|
Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread |
United States41983 Posts
On January 09 2021 05:50 StasisField wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2021 05:44 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:The guy who was lounging in Pelosi's office has been arrested. More to come I'm sure. The Justice Department says Richard Barnett, identified as the man who sat at a desk in House Speaker Nancy Pelosi's office during the siege of the U.S. Capitol by pro-Trump extremists, has been arrested.
Barnett was taken into custody in his home state of Arkansas. His identity and place of residence became a hot topic of discussion online, sparked by the striking photo of him with his feet up on the desk.
Other figures who made headlines at the riot are also now facing charges — including West Virginia state Del. Derrick Evans, a Republican who took office one month ago. Evans streamed video from the Capitol that was widely seen on his Facebook page, showing him on the grounds and just outside the building.
A signed complaint charges Evans with entering a restricted area, Justice Department officials said.
Barnett is being held at the Washington County Sheriff's Office in Fayetteville, Ark., according to Charlie Robbins of the U.S. Attorney's Office for the Western District of Arkansas.
Outrage over the photo and the insurrection in the seat of U.S. democracy triggered a harsh backlash against Barnett's hometown of Gravette, according to Mayor Kurt Maddox, who said on Friday, "Barnett is now in custody of the Federal Bureau of Investigation for a list of pending charges."
Officials have been monitoring the situation closely, the mayor said. Source If Trump hands this guy a pardon, I expect riots.
Why would Trump show loyalty to anyone who doesn't have a video of him jerking off while spying on Ivanka?
|
On January 09 2021 05:49 JimmiC wrote:
What does impeachment do? He was already impeached and nothing changed.
It forces the Senate to revisit the idea of conviction/removal, and it lets the American people know that trying to have a coup in this country is a punishable offense. There are literally no consequences right now. It also holds Republican leaders accountable too, and forces them into doing something instead of just lying about how they don't support violent insurrections.
|
On January 09 2021 05:50 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2021 05:50 StasisField wrote:On January 09 2021 05:44 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:The guy who was lounging in Pelosi's office has been arrested. More to come I'm sure. The Justice Department says Richard Barnett, identified as the man who sat at a desk in House Speaker Nancy Pelosi's office during the siege of the U.S. Capitol by pro-Trump extremists, has been arrested.
Barnett was taken into custody in his home state of Arkansas. His identity and place of residence became a hot topic of discussion online, sparked by the striking photo of him with his feet up on the desk.
Other figures who made headlines at the riot are also now facing charges — including West Virginia state Del. Derrick Evans, a Republican who took office one month ago. Evans streamed video from the Capitol that was widely seen on his Facebook page, showing him on the grounds and just outside the building.
A signed complaint charges Evans with entering a restricted area, Justice Department officials said.
Barnett is being held at the Washington County Sheriff's Office in Fayetteville, Ark., according to Charlie Robbins of the U.S. Attorney's Office for the Western District of Arkansas.
Outrage over the photo and the insurrection in the seat of U.S. democracy triggered a harsh backlash against Barnett's hometown of Gravette, according to Mayor Kurt Maddox, who said on Friday, "Barnett is now in custody of the Federal Bureau of Investigation for a list of pending charges."
Officials have been monitoring the situation closely, the mayor said. Source If Trump hands this guy a pardon, I expect riots. Why would Trump show loyalty to anyone who doesn't have a video of him jerking off while spying on Ivanka?
To be fair, you're right; him pardoning this guy is very far-fetched. The thought just makes my blood boil and after what happened to the Capitol it feels like anything is possible.
|
|
|
On January 09 2021 05:31 Doublemint wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2021 05:28 KwarK wrote:On January 09 2021 05:20 JimmiC wrote:On January 09 2021 05:04 StasisField wrote:On January 09 2021 04:42 JimmiC wrote:On January 09 2021 04:38 StasisField wrote:On January 09 2021 04:24 JimmiC wrote:On January 09 2021 04:21 Gorsameth wrote:On January 09 2021 04:15 JimmiC wrote:On January 09 2021 01:45 StasisField wrote:
[quote]
Y'all do realize Trump's base is going to be furious no matter why he's in prison, right? Whether it's because of his actions as President or his actions as a businessman, the reaction will be about the same. They revere the man as a god and think he can do no wrong. They'll believe that whatever charges brought against him are all fabricated in an attempt to oppress them and their leader. They'll be fed dangerous propaganda from OANN, Newsmax, Fox News, etc, and we'll have more events like the storming of the Capitol.
There's no point in charging Trump with state crimes, letting his failed coup attempt slide, and hoping his base accepts his fate because they aren't going to be okay with it and we will have just told all future aspiring fascist dictators in this country that weaponizing our own countrymen against us and staging a coup is completely acceptable. I don't think you are at all wrong with the Trump acolytes. I was more meaning the republican voters that are not fully engrained in the cult yet. But you could also just be right with all of them. 74 million Americans saw what Trump did during 4 years and said to themselves "I'm ok with this". The excuse of "we don't know how it will turn out" from 2016 was gone, and he got MORE votes then before. I think that says something about how deep the Republican party is in Trumps pocket. I'm not apologizing for them. I'm saying you have to live with them, so what is the best way to move forward. So how you have to punish Trump and bring back to reality as many people as possible. And not punishing the President for his crimes as the President further perpetuates this fantasy land that so many people are currently living in. If we want to bring people back to reality, we need to hit them with a hard dose of reality. Acting like Trump's attempted coup was legal and justified will do nothing but reaffirm the beliefs of and embolden those who follow him. Where did I state we should act like it was either legal or justified? You didn't but that's the message we will send if we don't attempt to prosecute Trump for his actions. I don't agree with that. No one thinks what nixon did was Legal or justified, and he didn't end up going to jail for state crimes like Trump would in my scenario. Half the country thought what Nixon was doing was justified. The only reason he was even forced to resign was due to the lack of state media telling supporters that it was fine. Fox News was explicitly created with the purpose of not allowing a future Nixon to get railroaded by the media. To support Republicans, no matter how in the wrong, so that they could insist that there were always two sides to every issue. yeah wasn't it mentioned quite some time ago in here that Nixon had 40 something approval rating AFTER watergate? we are fundamentally flawed beings. always were and always will be. // I mean think about all those people on the steps of the capitol rushing in, live streaming and making happy smiling pics and posting them online. those people will be losing their jobs. will pay hefty fines and/or go to prison. some even died. and for what. Donald Trump. let that sink in. I mean the gods are cruel as fuck and have a sense of humour to top it off.
Yeah it would be hilarious if it wasn't so sad. Watching that woman bleeding out wearing her Trump flag is just beyond surreal. It's like religious fanaticism and all for a completely worthless turd like Donald Trump.
|
On January 09 2021 06:00 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2021 05:52 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On January 09 2021 05:49 JimmiC wrote:
What does impeachment do? He was already impeached and nothing changed. It forces the Senate to revisit the idea of conviction/removal, and it lets the American people know that trying to have a coup in this country is a punishable offense. There are literally no consequences right now. It also holds Republican leaders accountable too, and forces them into doing something instead of just lying about how they don't support violent insurrections. I agree with the bolded part but not the unbolded part. I think Impeaching him again and nothing happening again shows the American people there is no consequence and impeachment is all show no dough. The path to impeachment is another broken part that the dems need to get on fixing.
I think impeaching without conviction is still, in spirit, better than not even trying to impeach, but I think you also raise an interesting point about "fixing" the process. How does that happen? Wouldn't it always require Republicans to participate in the impeachment/conviction process? What could be fixed that makes the process better, if the Republicans aren't willing to be fair about it?
|
On January 09 2021 06:04 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2021 06:00 JimmiC wrote:On January 09 2021 05:52 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On January 09 2021 05:49 JimmiC wrote:
What does impeachment do? He was already impeached and nothing changed. It forces the Senate to revisit the idea of conviction/removal, and it lets the American people know that trying to have a coup in this country is a punishable offense. There are literally no consequences right now. It also holds Republican leaders accountable too, and forces them into doing something instead of just lying about how they don't support violent insurrections. I agree with the bolded part but not the unbolded part. I think Impeaching him again and nothing happening again shows the American people there is no consequence and impeachment is all show no dough. The path to impeachment is another broken part that the dems need to get on fixing. I think impeaching without conviction is still, in spirit, better than not even trying to impeach, but I think you also raise an interesting point about "fixing" the process. How does that happen? Wouldn't it always require Republicans to participate in the impeachment/conviction process? What could be fixed that makes the process better, if the Republicans aren't willing to be fair about it?
Am I wrong in thinking the trial should be thrown to the SC? The House still files Articles of Impeachment but we let actual judges make the decision.
EDIT: Of course, implementing this change is much easier said than done.
|
Impeachment is part of the constitution I believe so yeah, practically impossible to change.
|
Impeachment is all about forcing the hand of the GOP senators, and it has a reasonable chance of succeeding by getting the 2/3 majority. The GOP will have a chance for a clean break with Trump, and could jump on it.
I have said it before, divide and conquer is a very powerful strategy, widening the GOP is a smart tactical move.
And of course, Trump had done more than enough to deserve to be removed from office, as he should have been a long time ago, he is a security risk.
But there are good reasons not to push forward as well.
|
Could maybe reform the impeachment process as part of a package constitutional amendment deal, but there are lots of more pressing reforms needed and whether the amendment stars will align in our lifetime is not an easy bet to take.
|
On January 09 2021 05:50 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2021 05:50 StasisField wrote:On January 09 2021 05:44 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:The guy who was lounging in Pelosi's office has been arrested. More to come I'm sure. The Justice Department says Richard Barnett, identified as the man who sat at a desk in House Speaker Nancy Pelosi's office during the siege of the U.S. Capitol by pro-Trump extremists, has been arrested.
Barnett was taken into custody in his home state of Arkansas. His identity and place of residence became a hot topic of discussion online, sparked by the striking photo of him with his feet up on the desk.
Other figures who made headlines at the riot are also now facing charges — including West Virginia state Del. Derrick Evans, a Republican who took office one month ago. Evans streamed video from the Capitol that was widely seen on his Facebook page, showing him on the grounds and just outside the building.
A signed complaint charges Evans with entering a restricted area, Justice Department officials said.
Barnett is being held at the Washington County Sheriff's Office in Fayetteville, Ark., according to Charlie Robbins of the U.S. Attorney's Office for the Western District of Arkansas.
Outrage over the photo and the insurrection in the seat of U.S. democracy triggered a harsh backlash against Barnett's hometown of Gravette, according to Mayor Kurt Maddox, who said on Friday, "Barnett is now in custody of the Federal Bureau of Investigation for a list of pending charges."
Officials have been monitoring the situation closely, the mayor said. Source If Trump hands this guy a pardon, I expect riots. Why would Trump show loyalty to anyone who doesn't have a video of him jerking off while spying on Ivanka?
He pardoned Flynn and Rod Blagojevich (which is just, wtf, why?)
|
Trump has pardoned actual war criminals. He will pardon anyone if he thinks it will benefit him.
And pardoning the people who attacked the capitol will score him massive points with his base and probably encourage them to go further in trying to keep him in power.
|
On January 09 2021 03:17 Oukka wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2021 02:57 Broetchenholer wrote:
By the way, as people have lauded the efficiency of Germanies dealing with the Nazis and changeing the society, there are three things to consider.
First. Especially Western Germany is famous for reintegrating Nazis into society and turning a blind eye to them wherever possible. The head of the party, where they got them, were punished, but the rest was in very high numbers just accepted back into society. The Russians did a much better job at keeping old functionaries and war criminals out of society. Western germany, not so much.
Second. Western Germany kept those people hidden by simply ignoring them. They remained in the society, they never mentioned what they did before and the fewest people bothered with more. People were educated in the rise of the third reich in the atrocities of the third reich but when it came to asking how the surviving men reintegrated into society, that education became a lot less focused. So, new generations just accepted that what their grandparents or parents collectively did was very wrong and can never happen again, but they also accepted that noone is actually personally responsible, especially not dear grandpa or the old strange man across the street.
Third. It is not allowed in germany to dispute the fact that the holocaust happened or to spread hate against people defined by religion, sexual orientation or descend. If someone does, it's jail time.
All three effects together mean, literal Nazis stayed in Germany and kept recruiting people to their ideology. They kept to themrselves and society for very long turned a blind eye unless they would public scream their hatred out into the world. And now they come out in droves, because they feel like they have regrown enough and are bold.
The point i am making is, jailing some people means nothing. Forbidding some intelectual property, like, lies about the outcome of an election, means nothing.
You need to shame people AND always keep discussing the events as something that will happen again. Only then you have a chance to grow out of a lost generation. I guess the question is whether you consider either the Western or the Eastern German response a success? And was there reasonable alternatives available that could have lead to a better outcome? Very much what ifs but we don't really have much more to go by. Also am I wrong to think that significant portions of the far right support come from the former DDR rather than the West? One big difference with the Nazi trials and the current events is that in the Capitol invasion it's much easier to prosecute the folk on the ground, there is ample evidence and they've committed quite obvious crimes. I don't think there would've been much justice in prosecuting Germans for being part of the party or armed forces etc. The high ups in Nuremberg and later folk connected to camps have been charged with genocide and crimes against humanity -level stuff if I'm not mistaken. My gut feeling is that those were much easier to get through courts than charges such as 'inciting a rebellion' will be against Trump and co.
In contrast to Brötchenholder I would indeed blame the gdr for ignoring right wing youth for too long. It was dangerous being a foreigner even during the 70s and 80s in parts of the country. Much more dangerous than now.
Don't forget, the GDR was a dictatorship, and for some reason they actually ignored Nazis. And the best reason I've heard as of yet is that they simply could not exist in a communist country, avoiding to the party line. That weren't allowed to exist but that also meant nobody did anything against the young and misguided Nazi skins.
|
United States41983 Posts
On January 09 2021 06:18 Gorsameth wrote:
Trump has pardoned actual war criminals. He will pardon anyone if he thinks it will benefit him.
And pardoning the people who attacked the capitol will score him massive points with his base and probably encourage them to go further in trying to keep him in power.
In fairness the only evidence that that guy was a war criminal were the photos he took of his victims and the messages he wrote bragging about how he killed them. This kind of situation is exactly what the founders had in mind when they created the pardon.
|
The worst issues with the impeachment process for the Ukraine phone call weren't the constitutional ones. They were senate procedural ones. The sham trial they gave could definitely be easily be outlawed, and much of the populace decided that since no evidence was shown, none of it existed. He still would have gotten off, but it would have been much less of a formality and I suspect 3-4 more senators would have swapped if witnesses had been permitted to testify.
(IE, an impeachment must debated for at least X hours and up to X number of relevant witnesses must be allowed to testify, with relevance strictly defined to prevent a circus).
This is part of why the impeachment process may be different : it's a different set of senators. Also, they may want to convict him even after leaving office (which is when it would be Schumer and not McConnell in charge). It prevents him from running, ever again.
|
Impeachment vote next week, apparently:
|
|
|
|
|
Worth noting that most in favor of immediate removal were Democrats, but he does still receive widespread disapproval on both sides of the aisle for inciting the assault on the capitol.
His treasonous ass is about to get impeached a second time.
|
Northern Ireland23821 Posts
Hasn’t really been mentioned much, but what does letting Trump and his cronies off the hook do for the left of the country too?
Now while I feel the overall cause was justified, and escalation was quite attributable to police heavy-handedness, it wasn’t that long ago we had cities aflame amid mass protests.
Dancing around the sensibilities of MAGApedes to placate them won’t exist in a vacuum, it will absolutely enrage that segment of the country. It SHOULD enrage the ostensible centre as well.
Talk about unity and understanding our political opposites is good for healing divides if it’s around typical political issues and differences, the time for that attempt to bridge partisan divides was absolutely in ye olde times of Bush, of the Obama presidency etc.
Now though? It’s a complete fuck you to a big chunk of the country, and it’s a complete fuck you to people who believe in basic accountability and the rule of law, of civic norms.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
