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On January 09 2021 04:11 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2021 04:04 Zambrah wrote:On January 09 2021 04:02 farvacola wrote:
The path to getting rid of Dems like Manchin goes through rehabilitating coal country. Unless and until we see some kind of rural renewal program akin to those implemented during the Dust Bowl, those who think themselves countryfolk will continue to cut off their nose to spite their face. But how do we get that when Democrats wont do it and Republicans wont do it? Show nested quote +On January 09 2021 04:07 Gorsameth wrote:On January 09 2021 03:58 Zambrah wrote:On January 09 2021 03:33 StasisField wrote:On January 09 2021 03:12 Zambrah wrote:On January 09 2021 03:08 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
He can delay all he wants. But I'm pretty sure he'll hop on board. He's posturing at best. Manchin has no chance to keep his seat if he refuses this and he is aware. He's using the vaccine and unemployment as roadblocks to the stimulus checks coming down. If the rest buckle, the amount will just be lower but there will be another few rounds of checks. Just have to get the right SoT in. Posturing to lower the stimulus check still makes him a COLOSSAL piece of shit, and the fact that we're seeing Democrats work to make life harder for working Americans tells me we're going to see Obama but actually less impactful for the working class. Christ, and here I was thinking, "weve had a year of severe economic and health crisis's capped off with a literal insurrection, maybe Democrats will capitalize on this unique moment in history and actually aggressive push to help people." I need to work on keeping myself aggressively pessimistic. This is the same party who rallied around Joe Biden to defeat Bernie Sanders. They are neither willing nor capable of bringing about the change this country needs. Its mind boggling to me. Like, WV is ranked 50/50 when it comes to income, the vast majority of WV would qualify for stimulus checks. He's actively working to make the lives of his constituents worse. Seems normal for America. I remember back when the ACA fight was going on you had the people who actually benefited from the bill protesting against it. The power of bad education and Fox News at work. What do we even do to fix it? We get tiny bursts where Democrats are in real actual power and so often they squander it by doing fuck all. I mean, would reinstating the Fairness Doctrine that Reagan fucked up help? Would Democrats dare to try and pass something that Reagan didnt want? Like if we just saw an insurrection in the capitol and thats not enough to get every Democrat on board to make big changes, what kind of action does America have that can spur politicians to DO something? I'm the wrong person to ask since I'm a pessimist that considered a lot of Americans a lost cause (I still support Hillary's 'deplorable' statement). You know, to just be grossly generalistic, you could put half of Trump's supporters into what I call the basket of deplorables. Right? The racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamaphobic -- you name it. And unfortunately there are people like that. And he has lifted them up. He has given voice to their websites that used to only have 11,000 people -- now 11 million. He tweets and retweets their offensive hateful mean-spirited rhetoric. Now, some of those folks -- they are irredeemable, but thankfully they are not America." Sadly the 2020 election proved that the deplorable basket might be a little bigger then half his 2016 support.
The single biggest moment for me was the Sandy Hook elementary school shooting.
20 6-7 year old children shot dead in their classrooms. The world looked in horror at what happened and America shrugged its shoulders and went on with life.
If classrooms full of dead children don't get people moving, then what the fuck is going to work?
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On January 09 2021 04:15 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2021 01:45 StasisField wrote:On January 09 2021 00:22 JimmiC wrote:
I could live with that. It would not be as satisfying but if he ends up poor and in jail and the country does not burn that might be the best of a bunch of not great options. Y'all do realize Trump's base is going to be furious no matter why he's in prison, right? Whether it's because of his actions as President or his actions as a businessman, the reaction will be about the same. They revere the man as a god and think he can do no wrong. They'll believe that whatever charges brought against him are all fabricated in an attempt to oppress them and their leader. They'll be fed dangerous propaganda from OANN, Newsmax, Fox News, etc, and we'll have more events like the storming of the Capitol. There's no point in charging Trump with state crimes, letting his failed coup attempt slide, and hoping his base accepts his fate because they aren't going to be okay with it and we will have just told all future aspiring fascist dictators in this country that weaponizing our own countrymen against us and staging a coup is completely acceptable. I don't think you are at all wrong with the Trump acolytes. I was more meaning the republican voters that are not fully engrained in the cult yet. But you could also just be right with all of them. 74 million Americans saw what Trump did during 4 years and said to themselves "I'm ok with this".
The excuse of "we don't know how it will turn out" from 2016 was gone, and he got MORE votes then before.
I think that says something about how deep the Republican party is in Trumps pocket.
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The big reason I'm not so concerned with the bitchass attempts at moving on from folks like Graham is that the MAGAts are not done yet. Some kind of Waco-like event is coming and it is going to be bad.
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On January 09 2021 04:25 farvacola wrote:
The big reason I'm not so concerned with the bitchass attempts at moving on from folks like Graham is that the MAGAts are not done yet. Some kind of Waco-like event is coming and it is going to be bad.
The resurrection of Branch Davidians and the Bundy boys will make a good show of it. I hope Harris tells Biden to shove his "unity" talk and mounts a full scale assault and obliterates them. That would be glorious.
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On January 09 2021 03:29 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2021 01:39 Oukka wrote:
So is the reason Dems are moving slowly with impeachment to make it easier for Republican senators to swallow? Like holding the senate trials and votes a day or two before Trump's term ends gives them a chance to stand on the side of law, and could be sold to the electorate (excluding the hardest Trumpists obviously) as a necessary move. Basically let the hottest feelings cool down a bit but then go through the removal vote to take at least a cosmetic stance. Also would solve their Trump 2024 problem, having him legally barred from running may make their next years easier if they are truly willing to move past Trump.
I mean I hope there is some sort of negotiations going between the party whips on how to move on. I don't think dems want to impeach again without removal from office, and I'd like to hope that sufficient amount of R senators see this is as an impeachable offence. I think the fact that the MAGA crowd are turning on the establishment Republicans (even Pence being targeted is a pretty strong indicator that the loyalty of the MAGA+QAnon crowds are to Trump, not to the wider party) may make it easier for McConnell to support impeachment as well. Surely the conservatives won't consider keeping Trump around after this. I'm not convinced that Republican establishment has had control since the tea party at least. Trump is just the first con man to take the reigns of the misinformation fed to these people every day. There is a reason half the Republican house voted against democracy after a failed coup and the country is electing QANON nut jobs. I know Danglars posted about Republicans recovering down the line, but I'd be very interested in hearing how that happens. Almost every notable Republican in the past two decades has been denounced as a RINO as the party shifts further and further right. Ted Cruz has already jumped further down the MAGA road and I expect any Republican who wants a future in politics to do the same because Trumpism is Republican at this point.
Trump has only won one election and then the Republicans lost all branches of government in only 4 years. The republican party also outperformed Trump this election. Trumpism looks like a losing strategy. We'll see but if they keep losing elections I don't see them staying in Trump's grip forever.
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On January 09 2021 04:24 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2021 04:21 Gorsameth wrote:On January 09 2021 04:15 JimmiC wrote:On January 09 2021 01:45 StasisField wrote:On January 09 2021 00:22 JimmiC wrote:
I could live with that. It would not be as satisfying but if he ends up poor and in jail and the country does not burn that might be the best of a bunch of not great options. Y'all do realize Trump's base is going to be furious no matter why he's in prison, right? Whether it's because of his actions as President or his actions as a businessman, the reaction will be about the same. They revere the man as a god and think he can do no wrong. They'll believe that whatever charges brought against him are all fabricated in an attempt to oppress them and their leader. They'll be fed dangerous propaganda from OANN, Newsmax, Fox News, etc, and we'll have more events like the storming of the Capitol. There's no point in charging Trump with state crimes, letting his failed coup attempt slide, and hoping his base accepts his fate because they aren't going to be okay with it and we will have just told all future aspiring fascist dictators in this country that weaponizing our own countrymen against us and staging a coup is completely acceptable. I don't think you are at all wrong with the Trump acolytes. I was more meaning the republican voters that are not fully engrained in the cult yet. But you could also just be right with all of them. 74 million Americans saw what Trump did during 4 years and said to themselves "I'm ok with this". The excuse of "we don't know how it will turn out" from 2016 was gone, and he got MORE votes then before. I think that says something about how deep the Republican party is in Trumps pocket. I'm not apologizing for them. I'm saying you have to live with them, so what is the best way to move forward. So how you have to punish Trump and bring back to reality as many people as possible. I don't think you can bring them back, those who saw 4 years of Trump and now the attack on the capitol and still support him? They are a lost cause.
You can only hope to stop them from indoctrinating the next generation but that means removing Fox News and its ilk and then you get the slippery slope of how much are you willing to limit and censor free speech in order to preserve democratic ideals?
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On January 09 2021 04:25 farvacola wrote:
The big reason I'm not so concerned with the bitchass attempts at moving on from folks like Graham is that the MAGAts are not done yet. Some kind of Waco-like event is coming and it is going to be bad.
So what?
If we get a Waco event what changes? We literally just saw an ARMED INSURRECTION at the US CAPITOL that flew the NAZI AND CONFEDERATE FLAGS.
I'm sorry but if this isn't the bar that screams to America to do better then there IS NO BAR. NOTHING will change in this country EVER. No amount of fire bombing, or mass murder-riots, lynchings, or killing of children will matter.
The Republicans will find a way to weasel out of it and the Democrats will act as their accomplices while they do it.
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On January 09 2021 04:32 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2021 04:25 farvacola wrote:
The big reason I'm not so concerned with the bitchass attempts at moving on from folks like Graham is that the MAGAts are not done yet. Some kind of Waco-like event is coming and it is going to be bad. So what? If we get a Waco event what changes? We literally just saw an ARMED INSURRECTION at the US CAPITOL that flew the NAZI AND CONFEDERATE FLAGS. I'm sorry but if this isn't the bar that screams to America to do better then there IS NO BAR. NOTHING will change in this country EVER. No amount of fire bombing, or mass murder-riots, lynchings, or killing of children will matter. The Republicans will find a way to weasel out of it and the Democrats will act as their accomplices while they do it.
If you're married to your despair, I shan't disabuse you of that, but I firmly believe that despair is the worst sin for a very good reason. For all of my problems with his policies and approach to politics, Obama had it right when he defined hope as an inherently audacious, bold notion that is a prerequisite for any kind of real progress.
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On January 09 2021 04:24 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2021 04:21 Gorsameth wrote:On January 09 2021 04:15 JimmiC wrote:On January 09 2021 01:45 StasisField wrote:On January 09 2021 00:22 JimmiC wrote:
I could live with that. It would not be as satisfying but if he ends up poor and in jail and the country does not burn that might be the best of a bunch of not great options. Y'all do realize Trump's base is going to be furious no matter why he's in prison, right? Whether it's because of his actions as President or his actions as a businessman, the reaction will be about the same. They revere the man as a god and think he can do no wrong. They'll believe that whatever charges brought against him are all fabricated in an attempt to oppress them and their leader. They'll be fed dangerous propaganda from OANN, Newsmax, Fox News, etc, and we'll have more events like the storming of the Capitol. There's no point in charging Trump with state crimes, letting his failed coup attempt slide, and hoping his base accepts his fate because they aren't going to be okay with it and we will have just told all future aspiring fascist dictators in this country that weaponizing our own countrymen against us and staging a coup is completely acceptable. I don't think you are at all wrong with the Trump acolytes. I was more meaning the republican voters that are not fully engrained in the cult yet. But you could also just be right with all of them. 74 million Americans saw what Trump did during 4 years and said to themselves "I'm ok with this". The excuse of "we don't know how it will turn out" from 2016 was gone, and he got MORE votes then before. I think that says something about how deep the Republican party is in Trumps pocket. I'm not apologizing for them. I'm saying you have to live with them, so what is the best way to move forward. So how you have to punish Trump and bring back to reality as many people as possible.
And not punishing the President for his crimes as the President further perpetuates this fantasy land that so many people are currently living in. If we want to bring people back to reality, we need to hit them with a hard dose of reality. Acting like Trump's attempted coup was legal and justified will do nothing but reaffirm the beliefs of and embolden those who follow him.
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On January 09 2021 04:36 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2021 04:32 Zambrah wrote:On January 09 2021 04:25 farvacola wrote:
The big reason I'm not so concerned with the bitchass attempts at moving on from folks like Graham is that the MAGAts are not done yet. Some kind of Waco-like event is coming and it is going to be bad. So what? If we get a Waco event what changes? We literally just saw an ARMED INSURRECTION at the US CAPITOL that flew the NAZI AND CONFEDERATE FLAGS. I'm sorry but if this isn't the bar that screams to America to do better then there IS NO BAR. NOTHING will change in this country EVER. No amount of fire bombing, or mass murder-riots, lynchings, or killing of children will matter. The Republicans will find a way to weasel out of it and the Democrats will act as their accomplices while they do it. If you're married to your despair, I shan't disabuse you of that, but I firmly believe that despair is the worst sin for a very good reason. For all of my problems with his policies and approach to politics, Obama had it right when he defined hope as an inherently audacious, bold notion that is a prerequisite for any kind of real progress.
I am desperately aching for a glimmer of hope, but every single piece of news I stumble across is some form of "Lets forgive Trump!" or "Lets make things harder for the working class!"
What hope is there to be seen? Realistically?
In the wake of this awful situation I really thought, "okay, this is it, this is the truly heinous disgusting action that can bring America back to a path of decency," and now it seems like every actor its doing their damnedest to stop that from happening.
Every time I get a glimmer of hope in US politics conservative figures from the Democrats and Republicans routinely dash my hopes as soon as they get a change to take hold.
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Wanting immediate results for things that will take time is not realistic. You're talking about rebuilding the core of American democracy and you want it now. That's not how it is going to be done. I'm not saying it needs to happen over a hundred years, but it takes time. This is what GH failed to understand. He got his revolution from the right and look how it faired. This isn't the time to demand immediate action on civil issues that will take months and years to implement. You have to work it and make sure you get it right. Otherwise, you're going to find yourself back here again in short order.
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@Nuremburg processes: A lot of the crimes was well-documented or apparent too, especially from the liberation of the death camps. When the allies showed video footage of the death camps during the proceedings a lot of the Nazi higher ups ironically had trouble bearing watching what they and their fellow psychos caused because of how terrible it was.
@Woman that got shot/police: Apparently I heard wrong/missunderstood. The police watching her climb over the barricades is worrying too. Still some policemen got hurt while fighting the rebels.
@Neo-Nazis from eastern Germany: A lot of the people that wanted a liberal society also moved to western Germany when the wall broke down, so most of the people that remained were the ones that either found the authoritarian communist regime somewhat agreeable or were unable or too old to move. Eastern Germany is older and on average significantly less rich than western Germany, which makes it a breeding ground for reactionism and the tale that the gov has forgotten about them.
The follow-up border parties of the communists were stronger in the east for the longest time, so it's not too surprising that the authoritarian reactive fascists are more successful there.
@Denazification in Germany: A large part is that the Shoah got rightfully established by the victors as a national shame. As a result the things that lead to this, nationalism, militarism and patriotism in almost all forms (with the exception of sports) were regarded as dangerous for a long time, with these things softening up a bit during the last 2 decades.
So the road is committing something terrible on the scale of a large genocide, loose 2 wars and roughly half your territory, establish that the expansionist patriotic mindset led to the large scale crime and you'll have 6 decades of Nazis not really daring to show their ugly faces.
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I didn't see it in the thread so
Dominion is suing Sydney Powell for 1.4billions dollars. They will not settle. Apparently they had to pay 500k dollars in personal protection for their employees since the election, with some of them receiving threats through phone messages.
www.nbcnews.com
Some of the most "vocal" trump supporters are happy because it will allow Sydney to show her troves of evidences.
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On January 09 2021 04:41 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2021 04:36 farvacola wrote:On January 09 2021 04:32 Zambrah wrote:On January 09 2021 04:25 farvacola wrote:
The big reason I'm not so concerned with the bitchass attempts at moving on from folks like Graham is that the MAGAts are not done yet. Some kind of Waco-like event is coming and it is going to be bad. So what? If we get a Waco event what changes? We literally just saw an ARMED INSURRECTION at the US CAPITOL that flew the NAZI AND CONFEDERATE FLAGS. I'm sorry but if this isn't the bar that screams to America to do better then there IS NO BAR. NOTHING will change in this country EVER. No amount of fire bombing, or mass murder-riots, lynchings, or killing of children will matter. The Republicans will find a way to weasel out of it and the Democrats will act as their accomplices while they do it. If you're married to your despair, I shan't disabuse you of that, but I firmly believe that despair is the worst sin for a very good reason. For all of my problems with his policies and approach to politics, Obama had it right when he defined hope as an inherently audacious, bold notion that is a prerequisite for any kind of real progress. I am desperately aching for a glimmer of hope, but every single piece of news I stumble across is some form of "Lets forgive Trump!" or "Lets make things harder for the working class!" What hope is there to be seen? Realistically? In the wake of this awful situation I really thought, "okay, this is it, this is the truly heinous disgusting action that can bring America back to a path of decency," and now it seems like every actor its doing their damnedest to stop that from happening. Every time I get a glimmer of hope in US politics conservative figures from the Democrats and Republicans routinely dash my hopes as soon as they get a change to take hold.
Speaking personally, I take solace in my belief that life is meaningless and that much of what happens in the world is utterly and totally senseless. Only from there can I begin to build a perspective that provides me the motivation to wake up each day and try to be a bit of a better person. US progressives would do well to adhere to similar notions; it's not as though the crowning achievements of prior politicians like LBJ or FDR seemed realistic before they were pushed for. Questions of what is and is not realistic are deadends imo
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On January 09 2021 04:45 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
Wanting immediate results for things that will take time is not realistic. You're talking about rebuilding the core of American democracy and you want it now. That's not how it is going to be done. I'm not saying it needs to happen over a hundred years, but it takes time. This is what GH failed to understand. He got his revolution from the right and look how it faired. This isn't the time to demand immediate action on civil issues that will take months and years to implement. You have to work it and make sure you get it right. Otherwise, you're going to find yourself back here again in short order.
Firstly,
the boldest is disgusting. Pretending that GH was ever for far right fascist revolution is disingenuous at best and absolutely heinous at worst. Thats a very, very shitty thing to say about something, and GH isnt even here to defend himself from it. Pretending that he would advocate for the flying of the Nazi flag or the Confederate flag in an armed insurrection at the US Capitol is bullshit.
Secondly,
This mindset of "no change now, change later" is always what it comes down to. When is later? In two years? When Democrats have no power because they lost the House and the Senate? In six years when we have a Republican president?
This is LITERALLY the moment to push as much change through as possible. This is the time to demand immediate action. We just had an ARMED INSURRECTION, there is literally no more pressing time in modern American history to demand immediate action.
We have TWO YEARS of confirmed power. TWO YEARS. This "we cant change anything fast so lets change something really slowly, but oops Republicans are in power now, so I guess we'll change nothing," is the vicious American political cycle that keeps Democrats losing and Republicans in power.
We need change, and we need it now. It has to be bold, it has to be oriented towards working class Americans, and it we cannot afford to put it off.
On January 09 2021 04:49 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2021 04:41 Zambrah wrote:On January 09 2021 04:36 farvacola wrote:On January 09 2021 04:32 Zambrah wrote:On January 09 2021 04:25 farvacola wrote:
The big reason I'm not so concerned with the bitchass attempts at moving on from folks like Graham is that the MAGAts are not done yet. Some kind of Waco-like event is coming and it is going to be bad. So what? If we get a Waco event what changes? We literally just saw an ARMED INSURRECTION at the US CAPITOL that flew the NAZI AND CONFEDERATE FLAGS. I'm sorry but if this isn't the bar that screams to America to do better then there IS NO BAR. NOTHING will change in this country EVER. No amount of fire bombing, or mass murder-riots, lynchings, or killing of children will matter. The Republicans will find a way to weasel out of it and the Democrats will act as their accomplices while they do it. If you're married to your despair, I shan't disabuse you of that, but I firmly believe that despair is the worst sin for a very good reason. For all of my problems with his policies and approach to politics, Obama had it right when he defined hope as an inherently audacious, bold notion that is a prerequisite for any kind of real progress. I am desperately aching for a glimmer of hope, but every single piece of news I stumble across is some form of "Lets forgive Trump!" or "Lets make things harder for the working class!" What hope is there to be seen? Realistically? In the wake of this awful situation I really thought, "okay, this is it, this is the truly heinous disgusting action that can bring America back to a path of decency," and now it seems like every actor its doing their damnedest to stop that from happening. Every time I get a glimmer of hope in US politics conservative figures from the Democrats and Republicans routinely dash my hopes as soon as they get a change to take hold. Speaking personally, I take solace in my belief that life is meaningless and that much of what happens in the world is utterly and totally senseless. Only from there can I begin to build a perspective that provides me the motivation to wake up each day and try to be a bit of a better person. US progressives would do well to adhere to similar notions; it's not as though the crowning achievements of prior politicians like LBJ or FDR seemed realistic before they were pushed for. Questions of what is and is not realistic are deadends imo
Unfortunately I have a basically opposite world view. I think so many aspects of life are meaningful and seeing them ignored or abused just hurts me. Seeing this torrent of pain caused by either active malice or indifferent mediocrity frustrates me beyond words. The people who will be evicted, the people who cant afford food, the people whose bills pile up and up as they can't find work. The people whose loved ones are dead, or dying of corona virus, or even those whose loved ones live and are saddled with life ruined medical debt. These peoples pain just appears to be so easily ignored. So easily discarded as some acceptable cost to life in the United States. People like Elon Musk can accrue 160 billion dollars of wealth in one year, but the notion that any number of vile systematic pains inflicted upon the American citizenry should be fixed in a similar time frame is dismissed as silly or unrealistic.
I wish we had an LBJ. I wish we had an FDR. I wish I could look to my politicians and think, "yes, they're fighting for me, and while they might not win, they're trying and theres a chance." Instead I see Bernie Sanders fighting, calling for the kind of serious change we need, and the majority of other politicians silent or actively calling for forgiveness for the inciter of an armed insurrection at the US Capitol. In what should be a moment that we see our leaders rise to the occasion to become an LBJ, to become an FDR, we instead are seeing the same old Joe Manchins.
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On January 09 2021 04:31 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2021 04:24 JimmiC wrote:On January 09 2021 04:21 Gorsameth wrote:On January 09 2021 04:15 JimmiC wrote:On January 09 2021 01:45 StasisField wrote:On January 09 2021 00:22 JimmiC wrote:
I could live with that. It would not be as satisfying but if he ends up poor and in jail and the country does not burn that might be the best of a bunch of not great options. Y'all do realize Trump's base is going to be furious no matter why he's in prison, right? Whether it's because of his actions as President or his actions as a businessman, the reaction will be about the same. They revere the man as a god and think he can do no wrong. They'll believe that whatever charges brought against him are all fabricated in an attempt to oppress them and their leader. They'll be fed dangerous propaganda from OANN, Newsmax, Fox News, etc, and we'll have more events like the storming of the Capitol. There's no point in charging Trump with state crimes, letting his failed coup attempt slide, and hoping his base accepts his fate because they aren't going to be okay with it and we will have just told all future aspiring fascist dictators in this country that weaponizing our own countrymen against us and staging a coup is completely acceptable. I don't think you are at all wrong with the Trump acolytes. I was more meaning the republican voters that are not fully engrained in the cult yet. But you could also just be right with all of them. 74 million Americans saw what Trump did during 4 years and said to themselves "I'm ok with this". The excuse of "we don't know how it will turn out" from 2016 was gone, and he got MORE votes then before. I think that says something about how deep the Republican party is in Trumps pocket. I'm not apologizing for them. I'm saying you have to live with them, so what is the best way to move forward. So how you have to punish Trump and bring back to reality as many people as possible. I don't think you can bring them back, those who saw 4 years of Trump and now the attack on the capitol and still support him? They are a lost cause. You can only hope to stop them from indoctrinating the next generation but that means removing Fox News and its ilk and then you get the slippery slope of how much are you willing to limit and censor free speech in order to preserve democratic ideals?
I don't believe people are lost causes. You can always bring someone back from indoctrination. I consume a lot of media on Youtube and I watch a few channels that often talk about political events on there. One channel in particular that I watch did a channel survey where they asked their audience what they considered themselves politically in 2016 vs what they considered themselves in 2020. There was a massive shift from a large amount of people being in the center or on the right to a clear majority being leftwing. This same Youtuber gets messages all the time thanking them for pulling them out of the alt-right rabbit hole many people have fallen into. I know this isn't a scientific study, it's just a dumb little Youtuber poll and some anecdotes, but I think it shows that people can leave indoctrination.
Another example is Daryl Davis, a black man who actively meets and befriends Klan members. He has gotten so many racists to give up their robes and to give up their hateful beliefs. And these aren't just regular members he's swayed either. Roger Kelly, the Imperial Wizard of the Klan in Maryland, eventually gave his robe to Daryl Davis and left the Klan for good.
I think people are far too quick to abandon those they see as abhorrent.
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On January 09 2021 04:53 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2021 04:45 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
Wanting immediate results for things that will take time is not realistic. You're talking about rebuilding the core of American democracy and you want it now. That's not how it is going to be done. I'm not saying it needs to happen over a hundred years, but it takes time. This is what GH failed to understand. He got his revolution from the right and look how it faired. This isn't the time to demand immediate action on civil issues that will take months and years to implement. You have to work it and make sure you get it right. Otherwise, you're going to find yourself back here again in short order. Firstly, the boldest is disgusting. Pretending that GH was ever for far right fascist revolution is disingenuous at best and absolutely heinous at worst. Thats a very, very shitty thing to say about something, and GH isnt even here to defend himself from it. Pretending that he would advocate for the flying of the Nazi flag or the Confederate flag in an armed insurrection at the US Capitol is bullshit. Secondly, This mindset of "no change now, change later" is always what it comes down to. When is later? In two years? When Democrats have no power because they lost the House and the Senate? In six years when we have a Republican president? This is LITERALLY the moment to push as much change through as possible. This is the time to demand immediate action. We just had an ARMED INSURRECTION, there is literally no more pressing time in modern American history to demand immediate action. We have TWO YEARS of confirmed power. TWO YEARS. This "we cant change anything fast so lets change something really slowly, but oops Republicans are in power now, so I guess we'll change nothing," is the vicious American political cycle that keeps Democrats losing and Republicans in power. We need change, and we need it now. It has to be bold, it has to be oriented towards working class Americans, and it we cannot afford to put it off.
In regards to GH, I don't care if he is here to defend himself. He did it enough while he was here. I can infer his response. Change the flag and the name. If this was his far left ideals being brought forth, he'd be cheering them on. All we've done is change the actors. Same results (but his would have been a helluva lot worse off in terms of damage and body count).
I didn't say don't change now. But you cannot realistically hope senate and house convene and push through a million pieces of progressive legislation before Biden is in office, has his cabinet confirmed, and can get a good sense of what needs to be done. There's a reason it's FDR's 100 days and not 100 minutes. This will take time. It can still happen. Let them get the pieces in place to do so.
And please stop the all caps on words. It's reminiscent of trump throwing a tantrum and that's how you're coming across, at least to me. We get it. A lot of feel the same way. But screaming into the void is just not a good way to hold this conversation.
The time will happen. How long did 2020 feel to you? That was 1 year. There is a lot that can be done in 2 years and I think the appetite for what AOC and people like her will start to introduce will gain more traction and things will change. But it isn't happening before January 20th and certainly not by June 20th. You have to get the people in the right places and the political will built up to sacrifice that will once you get things rolling. If the Democrats can get some meaningful legislation done in 2 years and it really does benefit everyone in the working class, then they'll be fine.
TL;DR - It is going to take time to get things drafted and secured. You have to be patient.
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