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On January 09 2021 00:22 JimmiC wrote: I could live with that. It would not be as satisfying but if he ends up poor and in jail and the country does not burn that might be the best of a bunch of not great options.
Y'all do realize Trump's base is going to be furious no matter why he's in prison, right? Whether it's because of his actions as President or his actions as a businessman, the reaction will be about the same. They revere the man as a god and think he can do no wrong. They'll believe that whatever charges brought against him are all fabricated in an attempt to oppress them and their leader. They'll be fed dangerous propaganda from OANN, Newsmax, Fox News, etc, and we'll have more events like the storming of the Capitol.
There's no point in charging Trump with state crimes, letting his failed coup attempt slide, and hoping his base accepts his fate because they aren't going to be okay with it and we will have just told all future aspiring fascist dictators in this country that weaponizing our own countrymen against us and staging a coup is completely acceptable.
On January 09 2021 01:39 Oukka wrote: So is the reason Dems are moving slowly with impeachment to make it easier for Republican senators to swallow? Like holding the senate trials and votes a day or two before Trump's term ends gives them a chance to stand on the side of law, and could be sold to the electorate (excluding the hardest Trumpists obviously) as a necessary move. Basically let the hottest feelings cool down a bit but then go through the removal vote to take at least a cosmetic stance. Also would solve their Trump 2024 problem, having him legally barred from running may make their next years easier if they are truly willing to move past Trump.
I mean I hope there is some sort of negotiations going between the party whips on how to move on. I don't think dems want to impeach again without removal from office, and I'd like to hope that sufficient amount of R senators see this is as an impeachable offence. I think the fact that the MAGA crowd are turning on the establishment Republicans (even Pence being targeted is a pretty strong indicator that the loyalty of the MAGA+QAnon crowds are to Trump, not to the wider party) may make it easier for McConnell to support impeachment as well. Surely the conservatives won't consider keeping Trump around after this.
It also gives time to build evidence. If they end up finding something indicating trump personally hampered efforts to retake the capitol, that is probably GG. This gives them time to shake the trees and see what falls. If someone testifies saying trump made some order for something, that could tilt the senate. I get the feeling McConnell will allow a vote.
My understanding is that if a president is removed from office, they may not run for president in the future. If that is true, that gives Rubio, Romney, Paul and likely a few others a very selfish incentive to convict Trump. Eliminating Trump as a viable presidential candidate in 2024 likely saves republicans a lot of headache. Clearing the way for Pence to battle it out with other normal candidates would help them long term.
Ted Cruz, when asked "if you had to do it all over again, would you?" after the insurrection he helped incite at the US Capitol said that apparently he would!
"Yes. Absolutely. I would object and urge that we should follow the law and follow the Constitution."
Ted Cruz is a remorseless scumbag and his being allowed to remain in the Senate is an endorsement of what happened at the Capitol. He will never stop pushing conspiracy theories and he legitimizes their power in the political sphere to the point where it causes fucking insurrection.
On January 09 2021 01:39 Oukka wrote: So is the reason Dems are moving slowly with impeachment to make it easier for Republican senators to swallow? Like holding the senate trials and votes a day or two before Trump's term ends gives them a chance to stand on the side of law, and could be sold to the electorate (excluding the hardest Trumpists obviously) as a necessary move. Basically let the hottest feelings cool down a bit but then go through the removal vote to take at least a cosmetic stance. Also would solve their Trump 2024 problem, having him legally barred from running may make their next years easier if they are truly willing to move past Trump.
I mean I hope there is some sort of negotiations going between the party whips on how to move on. I don't think dems want to impeach again without removal from office, and I'd like to hope that sufficient amount of R senators see this is as an impeachable offence. I think the fact that the MAGA crowd are turning on the establishment Republicans (even Pence being targeted is a pretty strong indicator that the loyalty of the MAGA+QAnon crowds are to Trump, not to the wider party) may make it easier for McConnell to support impeachment as well. Surely the conservatives won't consider keeping Trump around after this.
They were looking to find Pence so that they could hang him. It's the Republicans they were angriest at : not the Democrats. I've heard McConnell was also a target, but it's not as clear.
There's video of them chanting it, multiple eye witnesses, and a noose they had made. That so many of them had zipties suggests that they were planning to take hostages.
The cops didn't fire back until their backs were against the wall and they realized they were actually in danger.
Also, the cop who was reported dead yesterday has now actually died (it was reported he died a few hours before he actually did), and something like 60 of them are wounded. 538 now has an article where they note that right wing gatherings are half as likely to be violently attacked by the police, and that it's now being studied to get actual stats.
Trump openly ignored all warnings of right wing terrorism, and there have been reports of this for years. He refused to let them be called domestic terrorists, even. Here's an article about DHS being unable to get him to take any warnings about them from back in august: https://www.politico.com/news/2020/08/26/trump-domestic-extemism-homeland-security-401926
So unlike 9/11, where there was intelligence but it got ignored due to incompetence/negligence, I suspect we will find solid proof this was known of and approved. FFS, they were openly talking about doing it on parler and thedonald for months if they lost.
I'll call this the US's greatest military defeat since 1814, maybe?
If I had the time I would do a GotY-style ranking of all the post-Wednesday (what are we calling this event exactly?) “let’s come together” messages from politicians (and everybody in public life, really). So far I think my favorite (since this is a video game website) is from the beginning of Giant Bomb’s podcast The Giant Beastcast. Not that what they actually said was especially eloquent or incisive, but because it was the only one I’ve seen/heard that felt like a genuine expression of the rage and confusion and loss of words I also felt as an American watching this unfold.
Like, I was just sitting on my lunch break reading the news almost in tears trying to figure out what the fuck was happening. Were the MoCs safe? After all the hard-fought election campaigns was the make-up of the House and Senate going to be determined by who survived the Q mob? How the fuck did Republicans go on baiting this shit without thinking it was inevitably going to windup here? Or was that the goal all along?
I’m still not really sure what’s going to come out of this. Most of them haven’t dropped the rhetoric that got us here, and as the event becomes more distant it’s surely going to get less and less likely they do (assuming that was even the last violence we’ll see?). Rubio’s “let’s come together” video actually *still pushes* some rigged election bullshit (while equating this to BLM protests), and he identifies as “center right.” If that’s the centrist wing, what the fuck is the far right wing going to sound like in 2022 or 2024?
But honestly it’s still too soon for me to think about “what is the best message for 2022” kinda shit. Right now I’m just trying to wrap my head around how anybody who claims any deep-held commitment to patriotism or conservatism or democratic elections or the Founding Fathers or “rule of law” or (somehow its opposite) “law and order” can self-identify as a Republican.
On January 09 2021 02:09 Nevuk wrote: The cops didn't fire back until their backs were against the wall and they realized they were actually in danger.
No, the cops didn't fire, the secret service did. Because they don't fuck around and they will put you down if you are a threat to their protectee.
Pelosi has stated that she's asked the Chairman of the JCS to prevent Trump from launching any nukes in his final weeks in a letter that she sent to the house dems.
Preventing an Unhinged President From Using the Nuclear Codes: This morning, I spoke to the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Mark Milley to discuss available precautions for preventing an unstable president from initiating military hostilities or accessing the launch codes and ordering a nuclear strike. The situation of this unhinged President could not be more dangerous, and we must do everything that we can to protect the American people from his unbalanced assault on our country and our democracy.
On January 09 2021 02:14 ChristianS wrote: If I had the time I would do a GotY-style ranking of all the post-Wednesday (what are we calling this event exactly?) “let’s come together” messages from politicians (and everybody in public life, really). So far I think my favorite (since this is a video game website) is from the beginning of Giant Bomb’s podcast The Giant Beastcast. Not that what they actually said was especially eloquent or incisive, but because it was the only one I’ve seen/heard that felt like a genuine expression of the rage and confusion and loss of words I also felt as an American watching this unfold.
Like, I was just sitting on my lunch break reading the news almost in tears trying to figure out what the fuck was happening. Were the MoCs safe? After all the hard-fought election campaigns was the make-up of the House and Senate going to be determined by who survived the Q mob? How the fuck did Republicans go on baiting this shit without thinking it was inevitably going to windup here? Or was that the goal all along?
I’m still not really sure what’s going to come out of this. Most of them haven’t dropped the rhetoric that got us here, and as the event becomes more distant it’s surely going to get less and less likely they do (assuming that was even the last violence we’ll see?). Rubio’s “let’s come together” video actually *still pushes* some rigged election bullshit (while equating this to BLM protests), and he identifies as “center right.” If that’s the centrist wing, what the fuck is the far right wing going to sound like in 2022 or 2024?
But honestly it’s still too soon for me to think about “what is the best message for 2022” kinda shit. Right now I’m just trying to wrap my head around how anybody who claims any deep-held commitment to patriotism or conservatism or democratic elections or the Founding Fathers or “rule of law” or (somehow its opposite) “law and order” can self-identify as a Republican.
Those people seem to be remarkably tolerant to cognitive dissonances. That's the only explanation.
Kinda wish we brought public humiliation back as a form of punishment. Like just get the ringleaders, drop their pants, and hit them like a sailor with a 9tails. Would be hard for the stupidest trumpist to follow him after he cries like a baby.
Right now I’m just trying to wrap my head around how anybody who claims any deep-held commitment to patriotism or conservatism or democratic elections or the Founding Fathers or “rule of law” or (somehow its opposite) “law and order” can self-identify as a Republican.
That is easy enough, there are more than enough Republicans who came out neutral or well of this: Mitt Romney, as he voted to remove Trump after the first impeachment. Brad Raffensberger who stayed firm and bravely rebuked Trump before and during the Georgia call. --- Mitch McConnell who went for too long, but firmly put down the foot on Trump when his limit was reached (and he had secured his judge.) Mike Pence, who also went along for too long, but was actually a true hero of the Capitol Hill siege, possibly breaking the chain of command to bring in the national guard.
And many others. The GOP will be back after licking its wounds, the collective memory of both voters and media is very short nowdays.
I thought the woman that died was shot down while climbing the capitol by the police?
The police could have likely done more, was understaffed and is likely generally in favor of right wingers and possibly in part cooperating, but it's not like all of them were just watching. Multiple of them got hurt in fights with protesters.
On January 09 2021 02:25 Archeon wrote: I thought the woman that died was shot down while climbing the capitol by the police?
The police could have likely done more, was understaffed and is likely generally in favor of right wingers and possibly in part cooperating, but it's not like all of them were just watching. Multiple of them got hurt in fights with protesters.
Afaik she got shot by the sergeant at arms while trying to break into the room. No tears should be shed over her. She thought it was the day of reckoning against the ennemies of drump. Fuck her.
On January 09 2021 02:25 Archeon wrote: I thought the woman that died was shot down while climbing the capitol by the police?
The police could have likely done more, was understaffed and is likely generally in favor of right wingers and possibly in part cooperating, but it's not like all of them were just watching. Multiple of them got hurt in fights with protesters.
Afaik she got shot by the sergeant at arms while trying to break into the room. No tears should be shed over her. She thought it was the day of reckoning against the ennemies of drump. Fuck her.
Yeah apparently she was a hardcore Qanon believer.
I find very hard to shed tears for this kind of people too.
On January 09 2021 02:25 Archeon wrote: I thought the woman that died was shot down while climbing the capitol by the police?
The police could have likely done more, was understaffed and is likely generally in favor of right wingers and possibly in part cooperating, but it's not like all of them were just watching. Multiple of them got hurt in fights with protesters.
They didn't start fighting back until they enemy had already breached the capitol. That's more what I'm referring to. There's videos of them fighting at that point, but before that they just let them walk by (at best. At worst, they took selfies, gave directions, or removed barricades).
On January 09 2021 02:14 ChristianS wrote: If I had the time I would do a GotY-style ranking of all the post-Wednesday (what are we calling this event exactly?) “let’s come together” messages from politicians (and everybody in public life, really). So far I think my favorite (since this is a video game website) is from the beginning of Giant Bomb’s podcast The Giant Beastcast. Not that what they actually said was especially eloquent or incisive, but because it was the only one I’ve seen/heard that felt like a genuine expression of the rage and confusion and loss of words I also felt as an American watching this unfold.
Like, I was just sitting on my lunch break reading the news almost in tears trying to figure out what the fuck was happening. Were the MoCs safe? After all the hard-fought election campaigns was the make-up of the House and Senate going to be determined by who survived the Q mob? How the fuck did Republicans go on baiting this shit without thinking it was inevitably going to windup here? Or was that the goal all along?
I’m still not really sure what’s going to come out of this. Most of them haven’t dropped the rhetoric that got us here, and as the event becomes more distant it’s surely going to get less and less likely they do (assuming that was even the last violence we’ll see?). Rubio’s “let’s come together” video actually *still pushes* some rigged election bullshit (while equating this to BLM protests), and he identifies as “center right.” If that’s the centrist wing, what the fuck is the far right wing going to sound like in 2022 or 2024?
But honestly it’s still too soon for me to think about “what is the best message for 2022” kinda shit. Right now I’m just trying to wrap my head around how anybody who claims any deep-held commitment to patriotism or conservatism or democratic elections or the Founding Fathers or “rule of law” or (somehow its opposite) “law and order” can self-identify as a Republican.
I think LegalEagle on Youtube expressed the anger and rage many people, myself included, are feeling post-capitol storming (I'd love to call it the Coup of '22 since it rhymes so well, but alas, we're 1 year off).
On January 09 2021 02:25 Archeon wrote: I thought the woman that died was shot down while climbing the capitol by the police?
The police could have likely done more, was understaffed and is likely generally in favor of right wingers and possibly in part cooperating, but it's not like all of them were just watching. Multiple of them got hurt in fights with protesters.
Afaik she got shot by the sergeant at arms while trying to break into the room. No tears should be shed over her. She thought it was the day of reckoning against the ennemies of drump. Fuck her.
It was videotaped too so there's no question what happened. Of course conservatives are putting all sorts of disinformation out there though. Here's the video of what happened, NSFW obviously:
By the way, as people have lauded the efficiency of Germanies dealing with the Nazis and changeing the society, there are three things to consider.
First. Especially Western Germany is famous for reintegrating Nazis into society and turning a blind eye to them wherever possible. The head of the party, where they got them, were punished, but the rest was in very high numbers just accepted back into society. The Russians did a much better job at keeping old functionaries and war criminals out of society. Western germany, not so much.
Second. Western Germany kept those people hidden by simply ignoring them. They remained in the society, they never mentioned what they did before and the fewest people bothered with more. People were educated in the rise of the third reich in the atrocities of the third reich but when it came to asking how the surviving men reintegrated into society, that education became a lot less focused. So, new generations just accepted that what their grandparents or parents collectively did was very wrong and can never happen again, but they also accepted that noone is actually personally responsible, especially not dear grandpa or the old strange man across the street.
Third. It is not allowed in germany to dispute the fact that the holocaust happened or to spread hate against people defined by religion, sexual orientation or descend. If someone does, it's jail time.
All three effects together mean, literal Nazis stayed in Germany and kept recruiting people to their ideology. They kept to themrselves and society for very long turned a blind eye unless they would public scream their hatred out into the world. And now they come out in droves, because they feel like they have regrown enough and are bold.
The point i am making is, jailing some people means nothing. Forbidding some intelectual property, like, lies about the outcome of an election, means nothing. You need to shame people AND always keep discussing the events as something that will happen again. Only then you have a chance to grow out of a lost generation.
Joe FUCKING Manchin already says "absolutely not" to a round of 2,000 dollar stimulus checks.
Democrats dont have the fucking Senate, Democrats are going to continue to be powerless and now they're going to get to hide behind Joe fucking Manchin the whole time. This officially puts my Democrat hopes into the gutter. In a time where we need real actual leadership that is willing to make the changes the US needs to see to combat fascism we have JOE MANCHIN. Even fucking BIDEN who I revile promised 2,000 dollar checks if we had the Senate.
He can delay all he wants. But I'm pretty sure he'll hop on board. He's posturing at best. Manchin has no chance to keep his seat if he refuses this and he is aware. He's using the vaccine and unemployment as roadblocks to the stimulus checks coming down. If the rest buckle, the amount will just be lower but there will be another few rounds of checks. Just have to get the right SoT in.
EPT
