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I think it's the news that create the populists, not the other way round. Nearly all media outlets nowadays manipulate their headlines in a way to get the largest possible outcry and then they often cite each other and blow the already sketchy text up a bit more to get more attention.
Media trust as a result is at an all-time low (https://www.forbes.com/sites/patriciagbarnes/2020/10/02/add-this-to-the-list-of-criseslack-of-trust-in-us-media/), so media is mostly bought for entertainment and excitement. This gives media more reason to generate outcry and feed a political base.
Trump is the natural result, a man so controversial that he permanently holds the media's attention.
@Holding people accountable for the nonsense they spout: The mainstream media somewhat tried that when they tried to label social media "fake news" and occasionally sued. They lost that fight horribly and then jumped on the quick and shitty newstrain without fact-check. You are free to spout what bs you want, that is what free speech means.
On a side note I doubt Trump intended this level of escalation and even if making him a martyr is going to strengthen the separation and zeal of his base. His base like every extreme base feeds on the image of their "suppressive" political enemies and the harder you separate and strike against them the more radical and stronger they become. That is the large problem of extremism, extreme deeds incite extreme responses which increasingly convinces the less radical ones that the other half is evil and extreme measures need to be taken. It's a spiral into civil war.
On January 08 2021 20:10 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2021 20:01 Archeon wrote:
So you think they should lock up the conspiracy happy part of US populace? Jail realistically 20%+ of the population?
Because that sounds like dictatorship to me, just from the other side. Do you think the Nazi party would have stopped tying to take control of the country if Hitler had been pardoned after the Beer Hall Putsch? I think they would have simply kept trying. Appeasing them by making Hitler chancellor didn't help either. Appeasing them by letting them annex Austria and the Sudetenland didn't help either.
The Nazi party might have stopped taking control if Hitler didn't get the visibility he had. The Putsch was essential for establishing Hitler as a well-known political figure and gave him the platform he needed.
I also see a difference between the capitol incident and the Beer Hall Putsch, namely that in one case the one that caused it told them to go home. The insurrection at the capitol deserves punishment, but there is no consecutive proof that Trump intended more than demonstrations.
And yes I'm playing the devil's advocate here and I can see why people want to punish him for incitement of insurrection. But it's unlikely to hold in front of a court and a failed court case for incitement of insurrection will just be fuel for the fires of the people that claim that the political upper class wants to suppress their media messiah.
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On January 08 2021 21:36 Archeon wrote:
On a side note I doubt Trump intended this level of escalation and even if making him a martyr is going to strengthen the separation and zeal of his base. His base like every extreme base feeds on the image of their "suppressive" political enemies and the harder you separate and strike against them the more radical and stronger they become. That is the large problem of extremism, extreme deeds incite extreme responses which increasingly convinces the less radical ones that the other half is evil and extreme measures need to be taken. It's a spiral into civil war.
If you think holding someone accountable for a coup attempt is extremist then you're fucking lost mate.
Having a proper set of no-nonsense for trials is, IMO, pretty much necessary to establish any sort of reasonable future in which political leaders do not feel they can freely attempt authoritarian moves like what just happened. It's also an excellent opportunity to put a spotlight on the actual harms caused and damage done by the Trump administration in the last few years. In the rapidly evolving news cycle, the long term trends, the pattern of violent messaging from Trump and his major supporters as well as the sheer bulk of norm-shattering offences gets somewhat obscured.
In trial however, and the reporting of, a somewhat more longterm cohesive account of the events leading up to yesterday can be given. I think it's pretty important for people to hear that.
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For starters, I am really looking forward to seeing those internet trolls squirm in court facing serious charges. A lot of them won't be as tough when reality strikes their personal freedom with a sledgehammer.
Those phone videos will look a lot worse in courtrooms than in their echo chamber chat rooms.
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On January 08 2021 21:45 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2021 21:36 Archeon wrote:
On a side note I doubt Trump intended this level of escalation and even if making him a martyr is going to strengthen the separation and zeal of his base. His base like every extreme base feeds on the image of their "suppressive" political enemies and the harder you separate and strike against them the more radical and stronger they become. That is the large problem of extremism, extreme deeds incite extreme responses which increasingly convinces the less radical ones that the other half is evil and extreme measures need to be taken. It's a spiral into civil war. If you think holding someone accountable for a coup attempt is extremist then you're fucking lost mate. Having a proper set of no-nonsense for trials is, IMO, pretty much necessary to establish any sort of reasonable future in which political leaders do not feel they can freely attempt authoritarian moves like what just happened. It's also an excellent opportunity to put a spotlight on the actual harms caused and damage done by the Trump administration in the last few years. In the rapidly evolving news cycle, the long term trends, the pattern of violent messaging from Trump and his major supporters as well as the sheer bulk of norm-shattering offences gets somewhat obscured. In trial however, and the reporting of, a somewhat more longterm cohesive account of the events leading up to yesterday can be given. I think it's pretty important for people to hear that.
Not saying that you shouldn't have trials, but what happens if you (read the nation) lose the trial? What are the consequences of it?
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On January 08 2021 21:45 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2021 21:36 Archeon wrote:
On a side note I doubt Trump intended this level of escalation and even if making him a martyr is going to strengthen the separation and zeal of his base. His base like every extreme base feeds on the image of their "suppressive" political enemies and the harder you separate and strike against them the more radical and stronger they become. That is the large problem of extremism, extreme deeds incite extreme responses which increasingly convinces the less radical ones that the other half is evil and extreme measures need to be taken. It's a spiral into civil war. If you think holding someone accountable for a coup attempt is extremist then you're fucking lost mate. Having a proper set of no-nonsense for trials is, IMO, pretty much necessary to establish any sort of reasonable future in which political leaders do not feel they can freely attempt authoritarian moves like what just happened. It's also an excellent opportunity to put a spotlight on the actual harms caused and damage done by the Trump administration in the last few years. In the rapidly evolving news cycle, the long term trends, the pattern of violent messaging from Trump and his major supporters as well as the sheer bulk of norm-shattering offences gets somewhat obscured. In trial however, and the reporting of, a somewhat more longterm cohesive account of the events leading up to yesterday can be given. I think it's pretty important for people to hear that.
I don't think he'd get sued for incitement of insurrection, let alone coup attempt. He'll plead that he wanted peaceful protesting and arguably stopped the coup attempt by telling these people to go home and (belatedly) calling the national guard.
I'm not saying he wasn't tempted, but it's different to Hitler clearly stating that he wants to take over the government. And that ignores that the US law courts are known for being so terrible that most cases never get a verdict and that it's very easy to delay any judgement for years if you are sufficiently rich.
And even if the courts would sue Trump for incitement of insurrection and even if they made a comprehensive list of offenses and you got everything you wanted the people who needed to hear that never would because they are only in their echo chamber and would only get the 15 times twisted version that tells them about another way their "president was vengefully pursued by the corrupt institutions their hero so valiantly fought against". What's more likely is that it's going to fall flat and used as another example of the left "trying to blame Trump for the deeds of a few single radicals" or "trying to shut him up".
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meanwhile the U.S. reports more than 4,000 covid-19 deaths in deadliest day of pandemic
Biden really has his work cut out for him among the pandemic and the economy. once again after Bush junior Republicans leave a country in absolute disarray to a Democratic president.
rather tragicomical that there's close to no hope that people actually learn of course and there's a decent chance Rs will even get rewarded in 2022's elections "because things are so bad".
"One must imagine Sisyphus happy" lol.
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Trump addressed and incited the armed mob. He told them ""We will never give up, we will never concede" and shortly after the mob set towards the suspiciously understaffed Capitol building. When the building was broken into, he continued tweeting that the election was stolen.
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On January 08 2021 22:11 Doublemint wrote:meanwhile the U.S. reports more than 4,000 covid-19 deaths in deadliest day of pandemicBiden really has his work cut out for him among the pandemic and the economy. once again after Bush junior Republicans leave a country in absolute disarray to a Democratic president. rather tragicomical that there's close to no hope that people actually learn of course and there's a decent chance Rs will even get rewarded in 2022's elections "because things are so bad". "One must imagine Sisyphus happy" lol. Its almost as if the Republicans purposefully stopped the people from getting help so they country would be in as worse of a state as they could when Biden takes over for this very reason...
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Nazism in Germany was defeated not only by the death of Hitler and the fall of the reich, but through a unified understanding of history going forward. I'd argue a reform of the education system to give a uniform basic education to be the most important part in mending the split realities of the US.
That won't help the next 20 years of course. What would help today, would be something akin to the Nuremberg trials of those participants in the terrorism on the 6th, as well as their figureheads. Sure, a lot of their supporters won't be happy, but a strong response and reaction to the events will keep most pacified until the real change in the coming generation can come into effect.
The alternative of leaving it without prosecuting the guilty and without reforming the national understanding of events, will just continue the path the US is already on. The end there won't be good for the US, and it won't be good for the world.
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On January 08 2021 22:19 plated.rawr wrote:
Nazism in Germany was defeated not only by the death of Hitler and the fall of the reich, but through a unified understanding of history going forward. I'd argue a reform of the education system to give a uniform basic education to be the most important part in mending the split realities of the US.
That won't help the next 20 years of course. What would help today, would be something akin to the Nuremberg trials of those participants in the terrorism on the 6th, as well as their figureheads. Sure, a lot of their supporters won't be happy, but a strong response and reaction to the events will keep most pacified until the real change in the coming generation can come into effect.
The alternative of leaving it without prosecuting the guilty and without reforming the national understanding of events, will just continue the path the US is already on. The end there won't be good for the US, and it won't be good for the world.
Does your Nuremberg trial of participants include President Trump, Senators, and Congressmen?
I have no problems with education teaching why Trump’s post election behavior constituted impeachable offenses or the violent riot pushing into the Capitol is bad for peaceful transfer of power. I don’t have problems with trials of “participants,” although Nuremberg spectacle could detract (but certainly national media will make it very visible regardless).
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No, what Danglars does have a problem with is anyone remotely insinuating that apologism like his played any role in recent events whatsoever, now that's a bridge too far!
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On January 08 2021 22:56 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2021 22:19 plated.rawr wrote:
Nazism in Germany was defeated not only by the death of Hitler and the fall of the reich, but through a unified understanding of history going forward. I'd argue a reform of the education system to give a uniform basic education to be the most important part in mending the split realities of the US.
That won't help the next 20 years of course. What would help today, would be something akin to the Nuremberg trials of those participants in the terrorism on the 6th, as well as their figureheads. Sure, a lot of their supporters won't be happy, but a strong response and reaction to the events will keep most pacified until the real change in the coming generation can come into effect.
The alternative of leaving it without prosecuting the guilty and without reforming the national understanding of events, will just continue the path the US is already on. The end there won't be good for the US, and it won't be good for the world. Does your Nuremberg trial of participants include President Trump, Senators, and Congressmen?I have no problems with education teaching why Trump’s post election behavior constituted impeachable offenses or the violent riot pushing into the Capitol is bad for peaceful transfer of power. I don’t have problems with trials of “participants,” although Nuremberg spectacle could detract (but certainly national media will make it very visible regardless).
That is a great question, and essentially what we have been debating back and forth for the last few pages. It is obviously not fair to compare what leading republicans have done to what the Nazi leaders got convicted for.
Do you have a good solution for how to make Trump, Cruz and others accountable for undermining democratic institutions through misinformation?
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On January 08 2021 22:15 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2021 22:11 Doublemint wrote:meanwhile the U.S. reports more than 4,000 covid-19 deaths in deadliest day of pandemicBiden really has his work cut out for him among the pandemic and the economy. once again after Bush junior Republicans leave a country in absolute disarray to a Democratic president. rather tragicomical that there's close to no hope that people actually learn of course and there's a decent chance Rs will even get rewarded in 2022's elections "because things are so bad". "One must imagine Sisyphus happy" lol. Its almost as if the Republicans purposefully stopped the people from getting help so they country would be in as worse of a state as they could when Biden takes over for this very reason...
Sadly, the regressive part of the country doesn't seem to be able to recognize this. To them, it is "stuff looks good during republican presidency, stuff looks bad during democrat presidency". They don't realize that stuff sometimes takes time to take effect, and that most of the effects of one presidency are seen during the next. And the republicans know that a lot of people fail to recognize this, so they play party over country games and make the country worse when they hand it over so it looks worse during a democrat term.
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Everyone talks about how the last time congress was occupied was in 1814 but moreso than how long ago, it's who was doing the occupying that was important. In both cases, then and Wednesday the flags of foreign nations hostile to the United States were flown in the Capitol.
18 USC Ch. 115: TREASON, SEDITION, AND SUBVERSIVE ACTIVITIES
Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.
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This was a disturbing read:
Multiple European security officials told Insider that President Donald Trump appeared to have tacit support among US federal agencies responsible for securing the Capitol complex in Wednesday's coup attempt.
Insider is reporting this information because it illustrates the serious repercussions of Wednesday's events: Even if they are mistaken, some among America's international military allies are now willing to give credence to the idea that Trump deliberately tried to violently overturn an election and had help from some federal law-enforcement agents.
"We train alongside the US federal law enforcement to handle these very matters, and it's obvious that large parts of any successful plan were just ignored," one source told us.
I see more and more speculations that Trump himself facilitated the coup attempt, and certainly did not do anything to stop it. If this is the case, and that he deliberately attempted a violent coup, I don't see a way around prosecution for some extremely serious crimes.
At the very least, I hope a very thorough investigation will get to the bottom of this.
https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-attempted-coup-federal-law-enforcement-capitol-police-2021-1?fbclid=IwAR3tvQv6CQCuh47t83y4jURdqbaIPkBOyHXmsxeJs1jCWmfDUjoD8CXBvuw
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House will be voting on impeachment next week. Slower than I like, but it's at least something.
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On January 09 2021 00:12 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2021 22:57 farvacola wrote:
No, what Danglars does have a problem with is anyone remotely insinuating that apologism like his played any role in recent events whatsoever, now that's a bridge too far! Yes he demands that no responsibility goto him, because while he enabled him by voting for him and constantly defending him (and party) no matter how horrible the act, he never explicitly said he supported him, forget his actions. Question for you, is there a way that Biden could do something like pardon/let him off the hook for this but still leave him open for all the crimes he should be prosecuted for in New York? It would maybe keep his crazies at bay and we could get him like capone. I'm not to fussed on why he goes to jail as long as he ends up there.
As a bare legal matter, presidential pardons do not generally affect state prosecutions, so there's actually very little Biden can do to stop states with a professed interest in bringing charges against Trump once he leaves office.
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On January 09 2021 00:12 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2021 22:57 farvacola wrote:
No, what Danglars does have a problem with is anyone remotely insinuating that apologism like his played any role in recent events whatsoever, now that's a bridge too far! Yes he demands that no responsibility goto him, because while he enabled him by voting for him and constantly defending him (and party) no matter how horrible the act, he never explicitly said he supported him, forget his actions. Question for you, is there a way that Biden could do something like pardon/let him off the hook for this but still leave him open for all the crimes he should be prosecuted for in New York? It would maybe keep his crazies at bay and we could get him like capone. I'm not to fussed on why he goes to jail as long as he ends up there.
I think that's what's gonna happen. He'll get pardoned for his crimes in office but they will go absolutely medieval on his ass for his activities as a businessman and basically everything else.
At least that's what I would do.
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EPT
