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On January 08 2021 19:44 Archeon wrote:
While I personally believe that the pardoning right of the president is a shitty remnant of monarchies (Trump literally used it to pardon his cronies and family) that erodes the criminal justice system, I do think that it's in Biden's best interest to pardon Trump.
It's very clear that a significant portion (39% is a number I heard thrown around) of the US populace believes the election was fraudulent and no matter how ridiculous that looks after even a little bit of research it's become abundantly clear that the US cannot long term exist without restoring the trust of it's people. Biden has mostly the trust of his party, so he needs to make an effort to reach out to the other side of the spectrum if he wants to be a president for more than 51% of his people.
This happens every time though. Obama tried being bipartisan, and Biden is going to try too. The problem is that the other side doesn't want to be bipartisan. Ever. Even with the best intentions of playing fair and allowing other perspectives, the Democrats get screwed over for it. When the Republicans are in control, there's no bipartisanship at all. It doesn't work if both parties aren't in agreement to govern together.
Now that the Dems will have both Congressional houses and the executive branch, they absolutely need to push through the legislative agenda that is best for our country, regardless of Republicans whining about it. And keep in mind that Trump literally orchestrated a violent insurrection and attempted coup of our country. No pardon, no way. Even Nixon would be shocked.
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Are we seriously discussing pardoning the insurrectionist?
What the actual fuck people.
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Why in the BLUE hell would he pardon Trump? That is the most ridiculous b.s. I have ever heard clawson. The right thing to do is put laws in place to stop stupid conspiracies and make/hold people accountable. Seriously these people should be exiled and punished to the fullest extent of the law otherwise you are basically asking for more shit like this to happen.
Stupid outlets and social media outlets etc. need to stop the spread of stupid shit that sheep are going to believe.
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And what's the realistic alternative? Lock 20-30% of the populace up? Because historically it's constant civil unrest, street fights, followed by increasingly loss of power and corruption of government institution and then dictatorship.
People radicalize when they don't feel represented or heard. Hitler fed on that, Trump feeds on that. Hell if you count Obama's grassroot campaign Biden is the first more mainstream candidate to win the election in the last 12 years. (not that I compare Obama to Hitler or Trump, just saying that he was majorly elected by people unhappy with the system).
There is an undeniable radicalization within the last years and many of the screaming idiots were once normal people. Hell it's not like we didn't have violent BLM and antifa protests, the radicalization happens on both sides.
You have to convert them back, because the alternative is the end of the democracy.
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On January 08 2021 19:44 Archeon wrote:
While I personally believe that the pardoning right of the president is a shitty remnant of monarchies (Trump literally used it to pardon his cronies and family) that erodes the criminal justice system, I do think that it's in Biden's best interest to pardon Trump.
It's very clear that a significant portion (39% is a number I heard thrown around) of the US populace believes the election was fraudulent and no matter how ridiculous that looks after even a little bit of research it's become abundantly clear that the US cannot long term exist without restoring the trust of it's people. Biden has mostly the trust of his party, so he needs to make an effort to reach out to the other side of the spectrum if he wants to be a president for more than 51% of his people.
As someone who has read quite a bit about the Weimar republic it's very clear that the USA is going to become a dictatorship within the next 20-30 years if it can't heal the rift between it's political parties and people. For that reforms are needed, but also reconciliation.
Also Trump certainly isn't the sole corrupt narcissistic millionaire in the USA, the system practically breeds them. He might be especially loud and happened to get elected somehow, but I'm fairly sure that you're going to find dozens like him in the USA's top 0.5%.
@republican senators:
What choice exactly do they have? Confirm the election and loose their voter base who majorly doesn't agree and who doesn't trust them anyways?
Yes. Exactly that is what they should do if they had any spine whatsoever. The duties of a politician in a democracy are always to upholding the democratic standards first, and to their party and base second.
I actually think we got really, really lucky with Trump. Imagine if instead of Trump, we would have had a competent guy with those tendencies. The US would be a dictatorship now. The only thing that stopped that from happening is Trumps general incompetence.
This should be a major warning shot for the US. You need to get your shit fixed, or the next, more competent Trump WILL turn the US in a dictatorship. I have no idea how to deal with the problem that about half your population are fine with a fascist takeover and also live in a world completely divorced from reality. This status sounds completely absurd to me, but you need to figure out how to fix it. I have no clue how one would do that. Just being nice to the crazypeople and acting if they didn't just try to coup a legitimate transfer of power to install their insanocracy isn't the way, though.
I don't know if letting the wannabe coupists go free is the best course of action, though. It sends the message that if you want to coup, just go for it. Either you win, or you will be let go. And eventually, one of those coups will succeed.
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To be clear: I would imprison the militant protestants trying to get into the capitol, I wouldn't persecute Trump, because that will feed his media presence and increase the rift.
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On January 08 2021 19:55 Archeon wrote:
And what's the realistic alternative? Lock 20-30% of the populace up? Because historically it's constant civil unrest, street fights, followed by increasingly loss of power and corruption of government institution and then dictatorship.
People radicalize when they don't feel represented or heard. Hitler fed on that, Trump feeds on that. Hell if you count Obama Biden is the first more mainstream candidate to win the election in the last 12 years.
There is an undeniable radicalization within the last years and many of the screaming idiots were once normal people. Hell it's not like we didn't have violent BLM and antifa protests, the radicalization happens on both sides.
You have to convert them back, because the alternative is the end of the democracy.
they already started another civil war. if dumb inbreds need to go on the way side again. Let them go. There is no place for stupid shit in Amerca. That is why you muzzle the dog and have consequences for all these stupid hillbillies who are trying to spread lies and stupid conspiracies.
This is how you stop stupid shit. There is way too much spread of stupid shit and it needs to be shutdown with consequences.
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So you think they should lock up the conspiracy happy part of US populace? Jail realistically 20%+ of the population?
Because that sounds like dictatorship to me, just from the other side.
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Jailing them isn't enough. If you accept what they did you are allowing more people to jump and do it.
It needs to be stopped with great prejudice. Some of these people shouldn't even be allowed to stay in the U.S.
You are basically inviting more people to do as they did.
Not like the U.S. has been through this before. It's like we are back in 1812. Propaganda and extreme conspiracy theories and outlets need to be accountable.
I already told you how you stop people like this. For every lie you need to submit lawsuits on libel, defamation. This is how you stop outlets, conspiracy theorists and idiots like Trump. Hold them accountable. That gains you visibility.
The problem here is you have no real consequences.
It's no different than my work in sales and seeing unethical shit happening. You want to stop people from doing unethnical things? You have consequences. Treason and creating a mob of idiots, working behind your own people's backs with dictatorships is the worst kind of evil.
Why do you think a lot dictatorships end with assassinations or uprises? One way or another there is going to be a rebellion. You have to nip it in the bud.
Leader's are meant to unify your people not create separation. The whole American system needs to be reworked.
A lot of people died when they didn't have to if there was a unified response.
One of the biggest threats to our society right now is the spread of misinformation and without enforcing such things you are allowing these platforms to exist. There needs to be accountability for such things.
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On January 08 2021 20:01 Archeon wrote:
So you think they should lock up the conspiracy happy part of US populace? Jail realistically 20%+ of the population?
Because that sounds like dictatorship to me, just from the other side. Do you think the Nazi party would have stopped tying to take control of the country if Hitler had been pardoned after the Beer Hall Putsch?
I think they would have simply kept trying.
Appeasing them by making Hitler chancellor didn't help either.
Appeasing them by letting them annex Austria and the Sudetenland didn't help either.
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On January 08 2021 20:10 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2021 20:01 Archeon wrote:
So you think they should lock up the conspiracy happy part of US populace? Jail realistically 20%+ of the population?
Because that sounds like dictatorship to me, just from the other side. Do you think the Nazi party would have stopped tying to take control of the country if Hitler had been pardoned after the Beer Hall Putsch? I think they would have simply kept trying. Appeasing them by making Hitler chancellor didn't help either. Appeasing them by letting them annex Austria and the Sudetenland didn't help either.
Letting him use the Beerhall trials as a platform to rise to national fame and spread his message also didn't help.
There is no easy way out of this, but maybe studying what Germany did AFTER 1945 could give some answers. Without knowing enough details, that was an amazing ideoligical recovery.
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no one said jail the stupid people lol.
but if you fall for the right wing hysteria and lies and are unable to distinguish between right and wrong - I can't stretch that enough, people brought pipe bombs to "stop the steal" - you are not welcome in the process that is democracy.
and Trump needs to be held accountable. dancing on the edge like a madman and chipping away at norms and undermining the trust in institutions and democracy itself is orders of magnitude too much. besides, he is a corrupt to the core and if his POTUS protections expire he should face the music - not because it good for Democrats or lets sane Republicans have more of a say - but because he broke the law numerous times. the signal it sends that the rich and mighty time and time again get away is about as corrosive to the fabric of rule of law and the fabric of society as can be.
just think about the great financial crisis, the lack of accountability and subsequent economic hurt it put on normal people and which sort of political reaction it brought about in the following years.
On January 08 2021 20:19 Slydie wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2021 20:10 Gorsameth wrote:On January 08 2021 20:01 Archeon wrote:
So you think they should lock up the conspiracy happy part of US populace? Jail realistically 20%+ of the population?
Because that sounds like dictatorship to me, just from the other side. Do you think the Nazi party would have stopped tying to take control of the country if Hitler had been pardoned after the Beer Hall Putsch? I think they would have simply kept trying. Appeasing them by making Hitler chancellor didn't help either. Appeasing them by letting them annex Austria and the Sudetenland didn't help either. Letting him use the Beerhall trials as a platform to rise to national fame and spread his message also didn't help. There is no easy way out of this, but maybe studying what Germany did AFTER 1945 could give some answers. Without knowing enough details, that was an amazing ideoligical recovery.
so we only need to find formidable democratic countries (and a communist one?) to invade the US, show them the error of their ways and force them to learn democratic norms and why those are good. should only take 5-10 years lol.
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Yeah, dont stomp antidemocratic sentiments while they are growing, let them grow until they can take over. Great strategy.
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so we only need to find formidable democratic countries (and a communist one?) to invade the US, show them the error of their ways and force them to learn democratic norms and why those are good. should only take 5-10 years lol.
No matter the circumstances, I think something could be learned by how effectively Germany was cleansed of Nazism, by long and thorough trials etc. It still wasn't enough to make people like Rudolph Hess nazi symbols today for standing by his faith, but Nazism was essentially dead for decades.
The US failed to do something similar after the civil war and is paying the price to this day.
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On January 08 2021 20:19 Slydie wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2021 20:10 Gorsameth wrote:On January 08 2021 20:01 Archeon wrote:
So you think they should lock up the conspiracy happy part of US populace? Jail realistically 20%+ of the population?
Because that sounds like dictatorship to me, just from the other side. Do you think the Nazi party would have stopped tying to take control of the country if Hitler had been pardoned after the Beer Hall Putsch? I think they would have simply kept trying. Appeasing them by making Hitler chancellor didn't help either. Appeasing them by letting them annex Austria and the Sudetenland didn't help either. Letting him use the Beerhall trials as a platform to rise to national fame and spread his message also didn't help. There is no easy way out of this, but maybe studying what Germany did AFTER 1945 could give some answers. Without knowing enough details, that was an amazing ideoligical recovery. Ignoring the whole 'losing a war and god knows how many dead' that probably massively contributed to the ideological shift there was also the Nuremberg trials where the top members were judged, (24 in total, 12 got death sentences, 7 prison from 10 to life, 3 acquitted and 2 not charged).
On January 08 2021 20:55 Slydie wrote:Show nested quote +
so we only need to find formidable democratic countries (and a communist one?) to invade the US, show them the error of their ways and force them to learn democratic norms and why those are good. should only take 5-10 years lol.
No matter the circumstances, I think something could be learned by how effectively Germany was cleansed of Nazism, by long and thorough trials etc. It still wasn't enough to make people like Rudolph Hess nazi symbols today for standing by his faith, but Nazism was essentially dead for decades. The US failed to do something similar after the civil war and is paying the price to this day. Agreed. America never conclusively dealt with the Civil War and this is just another eventual result of that decision.
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The german population was forced to understand what the Nazi regime really did. The issue with the US is that as long as newsmax/oann/fox news still peddle conspiracy theories, you won't be able to convince their base. Hell, when fox news called arizona, their watchers turned on them.
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On January 08 2021 20:48 Silvanel wrote:
Yeah, dont stomp antidemocratic sentiments while they are growing, let them grow until they can take over. Great strategy.
especially when trump has hinted that he plans on starting his own media network to spread more falsehoods. lol
we don't need shit worse than Fox. Seriously we have enough shitty anchors in this country feeding bullshit.
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On January 08 2021 21:02 Erasme wrote:
The german population was forced to understand what the Nazi regime really did. The issue with the US is that as long as newsmax/oann/fox news still peddle conspiracy theories, you won't be able to convince their base. Hell, when fox news called arizona, their watchers turned on them.
We need to stop it being a viable political strategy to be a conspiracy theorist. If politicians stop it will go back to being on the news less too.
Which is why we have to expel Cruz, Hawley and the like from Congress and ban them from holding all public office and preferably find some way to denote them as a stain on US history with like, a reverse Medal of Honor.
But the fact that people want to even let Trump of is mind boggling. They're fascist enablers. At the end of the day that's what it is, if anyone doesn't want to see Trump face consequences for this proto fascist uprising then they're fascist enablers and if US politicians do what the fascist enablers want were fucked.
Competent Trump will come around and no one will stop him and the US will become properly fascist.
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On January 08 2021 20:48 Silvanel wrote:
Yeah, dont stomp antidemocratic sentiments while they are growing, let them grow until they can take over. Great strategy.
History has proven it's very hard to stomp sentiments, that's the point.
And you CERTAINLY don't do that by force. Unless you want to be something like China and start building concentration camps everywhere, and even then I am not sure it will work for them.
There is no easy fix to that far right proto fascist wave, and the solution is probably a looooooooooot of convincing, done at the bottom of the ladder.
Yeah, it's worrying and frustrating. And we might lose. But try yo fix the problem with violence and you are certain to lose.
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On January 08 2021 21:05 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2021 20:48 Silvanel wrote:
Yeah, dont stomp antidemocratic sentiments while they are growing, let them grow until they can take over. Great strategy. especially when trump has hinted that he plans on starting his own media network to spread more falsehoods. lol we don't need shit worse than Fox. Seriously we have enough shitty anchors in this country feeding bullshit.
There's a good argument that Trump starting his own network won't really do anything.
In the 1990s and early 2000s, there was practically a couple of sources. You had Fox News, a pretty homogeneous talk back radio landscape ruled by Rush Limbaugh, and smaller outfits like Drudge Report. They had a pretty good grip of the situation and never really let it go out of control because they were the only trustworthy conservative source available run by people who had a good grip of reality.
The biggest problem now is that the conservative news landscape has splintered thanks to the proliferation of social media and the conservative's base willingness to accept radicalization into their hearts. People would love to excuse the Trump cult as fools being abused by sinister forces but that completely excuses the role of the perpetrators. I'm not even sure if the perpetrators are upset at the results, Like Ted Cruz might say that he wants to punish the terrorists who invaded Capitol Hill but in the very same statement he is trying to wipe his hands clean of his involvement in the matter and has the shamelessness to use the situation to fundraise to fight against the injustice that is the stolen election.
Radicalization is a staircase. Social media has encouraged a large chunk of the conservative base who once got extremely upset at Obama wanting dijon mustard and wearing a tan suit...to become a group who thought Obama was a secret muslim who was not born in America...to become a group who believed Hillary Clinton ran a pedophile ring under the pizza store and the entire Whitehouse was filled with lizard people trying to stop their God Emperor Donald Trump from draining the swamp. Now these people are the same people who believe that undercover Antifa superagents are setting up Donald Trump by staging this insurrection attempt.
At this point, Sean Hannity and Tucker Carlson are just following the downward staircase built by Facebook groups affiliated with the whole QAnon bullshit. They just phrase it so it doesn't quite sound so nutty. No one has any control of the conspiracy anymore, the staircase leads so deep that its already reached the mantle.
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EPT
