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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets. Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread | ||
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StalkerTL
212 Posts
Police weren't incompetent. Lots of reports coming out of police directing terrorists around Capitol Hill as well as off-duty police being among the terrorists and showed Capitol Hill police their ID so they could pass unimpeded. There has to be an investigation of the police department. If these idiots were actually organised by a proper organisation, a good chunk of Congress would be held hostage right now. | ||
Falling
Canada11607 Posts
On January 08 2021 11:27 Starlightsun wrote: Falling, farvacola quoted you the relevant text of the 25th and I never saw you respond to it. What was your issue with that section? And I quoted back what the senator who introduced the amendment thought the purpose of the amendment was for. (Clinical insanity.) Given that it has never been used and people are suddenly latching on to it to remove Trump, I'm not so sure it can be used in that way. says ‘unable to discharge the duties.’ He failed at discharging more than one of his duties as president yesterday. Yes, but unable to discharge duties is not the same thing as able, but unwilling. Failing to discharge duties is not unable to either. Now failing to do so means a great many things, all of them negative, but not a matter of 'inability'. Impeachment route seems more relevant as it is effectively the route of firing the president. I just don't see that the 25th is a second method of firing the president, but a matter of physical/ mental incapacity. | ||
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StasisField
United States1086 Posts
On January 08 2021 12:03 StalkerTL wrote: https://twitter.com/AshleyRParker/status/1347365487961923585 Police weren't incompetent. Lots of reports coming out of police directing terrorists around Capitol Hill as well as off-duty police being among the terrorists and showed Capitol Hill police their ID so they could pass unimpeded. There has to be an investigation of the police department. This Police Department, like so many across the country, needs to entirely dissolved and rebuilt from scratch with all new hires. They do not care about the rule of law. | ||
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StasisField
United States1086 Posts
On January 08 2021 12:08 Falling wrote: And I quoted back what the senator who introduced the amendment thought the purpose of the amendment was for. (Clinical insanity.) Given that it has never been used and people are suddenly latching on to it to remove Trump, I'm not so sure it can be used in that way. And people told you that they left it open-ended so that it could be used in cases they did not consider. | ||
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Falling
Canada11607 Posts
Or open-ended in that there might be other ways a president might incapacitated that they hadn't thought of? | ||
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brian
United States9644 Posts
this is presuming the words of the constitution don’t speak clearly enough for themselves. which many argue they do. | ||
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Sermokala
United States14220 Posts
On January 08 2021 12:03 StalkerTL wrote: https://twitter.com/AshleyRParker/status/1347365487961923585 Police weren't incompetent. Lots of reports coming out of police directing terrorists around Capitol Hill as well as off-duty police being among the terrorists and showed Capitol Hill police their ID so they could pass unimpeded. There has to be an investigation of the police department. If these idiots were actually organised by a proper organisation, a good chunk of Congress would be held hostage right now. They can be racist complicit and incompetent. Its what Trump has been flailing about with for years. If you look at that video where their perimeter collapsed you can see that it had no depth and didn't collapse because the crowd rushed forward it just didn't have any depth at all. They just walked up the stairs and were so confused about what was going on they just took pictures of themselves. | ||
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
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Falling
Canada11607 Posts
On January 08 2021 12:20 brian wrote: it would seem evident on its face that a group of non doctors is ill fit to declare clinical insanity, suggesting that is not the intention as written. the amendment does not ask for a doctor to co-sign. this is presuming the words of the constitution don’t speak clearly enough for themselves. which many argue they do. Well, sure it speaks clearly: the above sections and title of the 25th provide context- vacancy, disability, and inability. Inability, not unwillingness. Section 1 there is literally no president because of removal, death or resignation. Section 2 is follow up to said vacancy to make sure there is a new VP Section 3 is when the president recognizes his inability (even if temporarily) and therefore cedes power. Section 4 is when the president cannot recognize his inability, so the VP and Cabinet do it for him. If the president has the capability of contesting this assessment, but the VP and Cabinet double down, then it goes to Congress to decide. So the question is, in what context is it most likely that VP and Cabinet says he has the inability (not unwillingness) to perform duties, but the president still has the wherewithal to contend he is able, but the VP and Cabinet would say, no he definitely lacks the ability? Insanity is the most likely scenario. You're right it is open ended and does not require doctors. But I think a lot of people are equating unwillingness with inability, and I don't think that's how 'inability' in the 25th reads. But of course because Section 4 has never been tried, we don't exactly know. But what I started out saying is it isn't so clear that anyone is 'letting' him finish as though the 25th was a tried and true method of removing a president unwilling to perform their duties. | ||
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Zambrah
United States7393 Posts
EDIT: Heres something unrelated, Bernie calling for aggressive change a la FDR. I basically agree, we need to act on having the Senate, House, and President for two years and do as much as humanly possible, if Democrats even manage to make it look like they're actively working for people and helping them we might even get to keep Congress through the midterms with some luck. The only problem is that Biden exists and all of these things that Bernie calls for are things Biden is not. Biden is very much going to have to be hardshifted into real concrete action if we're going to have any hope of accomplishing anything and potentially not having to deal with the next wave of Republican electoral victories. I highly doubt that anyone will remember this insurrection/coup attempt by the time the midterms roll around, Democrats should focus on building a positive message of change and not rely on "Republicans are the badness." https://twitter.com/People4Bernie/status/1347355973782970370?s=20 | ||
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FueledUpAndReadyToGo
Netherlands30548 Posts
I doubt resigning now has much actual face-saving value when they stayed at their post during the whole 'Rigged Election' spiel that has been the cause of yesterdays events. | ||
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Husyelt
United States839 Posts
On January 08 2021 13:32 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: Are these cabinet members resigning so they don't have to make a 25th amendment decision? I doubt resigning now has much actual face-saving value when they stayed at their post during the whole 'Rigged Election' spiel that has been the cause of yesterdays events. I’m fairly sure a lot of members stayed so long to keep things in some form of order. “If I resign who the hell will replace me?” | ||
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NewSunshine
United States5938 Posts
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
On January 08 2021 13:20 Zambrah wrote: Doesn't have to be the 25th Amendment, can still be through impeachment and removal from office, but the message it sends to let Donald Trump remain in office is unacceptable beyond words. Pelosi did not call an emergency session, therefore Congress is in recess until the 20th. She just left making threats and demanding 25th amendment. It was Pelosi's call, and for whatever political calculation she decided on not doing impeachment. | ||
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Zambrah
United States7393 Posts
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RenSC2
United States1102 Posts
On January 08 2021 13:20 Zambrah wrote: Doesn't have to be the 25th Amendment, can still be through impeachment and removal from office, but the message it sends to let Donald Trump remain in office is unacceptable beyond words. I'd prefer impeachment or the 25th amendment. Would have preferred it the last time they tried it too. However, I'm willing to accept leaving him in office if he's completely neutered until the 20th. Don't incite even more problems until that point. Keep him in a fucking straightjacket. Then on the 21st, arrest him on what they've already got and start doing real investigations and then hit him with even more charges along with all of his enablers. I want some very public charges against him and his cronies. This shit can't stand unpunished. | ||
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Zambrah
United States7393 Posts
On January 08 2021 14:19 RenSC2 wrote: I'd prefer impeachment or the 25th amendment. Would have preferred it the last time they tried it too. However, I'm willing to accept leaving him in office if he's completely neutered until the 20th. Don't incite even more problems until that point. Keep him in a fucking straightjacket. Then on the 21st, arrest him on what they've already got and start doing real investigations and then hit him with even more charges along with all of his enablers. I want some very public charges against him and his cronies. This shit can't stand unpunished. Yeah, I'd rather see him impeached and removed from office, and atm thats looking to be the only option we have. | ||
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Jek
Denmark2771 Posts
On January 08 2021 14:19 RenSC2 wrote: I'd prefer impeachment or the 25th amendment. Would have preferred it the last time they tried it too. However, I'm willing to accept leaving him in office if he's completely neutered until the 20th. Don't incite even more problems until that point. Keep him in a fucking straightjacket. Then on the 21st, arrest him on what they've already got and start doing real investigations and then hit him with even more charges along with all of his enablers. I want some very public charges against him and his cronies. This shit can't stand unpunished. I cant wait to see him try and pull off an insanity defense if he's put to trial. Psychiatrists have already over the years tried multiple times to warn everyone about his dangerous mental state. | ||
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Salazarz
Korea (South)2591 Posts
The way I see it, if he and his 'team' are allowed to walk away from this (and I think they will be) it's the last bit of evidence needed to prove that American democracy is utterly toothless and that people have lost whatever control they might have once had over their government. It will prove that those in power are untouchable, that it's not just the international law but also your very own federal law has no sway over your rulers and that for all intents and purposes, democracy is truly dead in the USA. | ||
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Starlightsun
United States1405 Posts
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