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On January 08 2021 15:46 Salazarz wrote: I'm curious what's the general consensus here, since there's a lot of teeth gnashing and fist waving: do you genuinely believe that Trump and / or any of his cronies will be put on trial?
The way I see it, if he and his 'team' are allowed to walk away from this (and I think they will be) it's the last bit of evidence needed to prove that American democracy is utterly toothless and that people have lost whatever control they might have once had over their government. It will prove that those in power are untouchable, that it's not just the international law but also your very own federal law has no sway over your rulers and that for all intents and purposes, democracy is truly dead in the USA.
Biden walking in there on January 20th is proof that the people have NOT lost whatever control they might have once had over their government. He was elected to a 4 year term. And you think legal troubles upon exit is a proof Democracy is toothless. Bro, it's the shitty democracies that put political prosecutions on the opposite party once they get it. Here, he has to be investigated and they better be able to demonstrate something's wrong with the company he runs or the foundation, and it's only because a prosecutor can prove he violated the law and a jury agrees.
Luckily, it was never about "allowing" the team to walk away from it. We'll "allow" investigators to try their best to prove something bad, for all I know it'll be extensive illegal financial crimes or barely anything above a fine. Democracy was always about putting the onus of "allow" on "what we ALLOW the state to do to an elected representative once he's just a free citizen of the United States."
Go have a real point about Democracy is dead mawkish tones if the first guys violently pushing through police lines see no charges or jail time. That one's legit. Only people that have no idea what Democracy is beyond some majority vote actually want to put political opponents in jail in order to prove Democracy is legit. That's banana republic stuff, through and through. New regime jails the old.
Maybe I should also add, if he were given the same treatment as Hillary Clinton when she left her job and came in runner-up, if that would be close enough to the legal trouble you seek. I don't want to assume things and maybe this was all sort of a rhetorical device rather than the literal way in which I read your post.
On January 08 2021 16:27 Danglars wrote: Only people that have no idea what Democracy is beyond some majority vote actually want to put political opponents in jail in order to prove Democracy is legit. That's banana republic stuff, through and through. New regime jails the old.
Kwark you idiot. Its just a joke, you're not meant to take that seriously. Its just political theatre. Its not our fault that some people take it seriously, they're just a small minority.
On January 08 2021 16:36 StalkerTL wrote: Kwark you idiot. Its just a joke, you're not meant to take that seriously. Its just political theatre. Its not our fault that some people take it seriously, they're just a small minority.
Oh, well in that case I see no reason not to vote for Trump in 2016, despite his joking pledge to use executive power to set the organs of the state on his political opponents. It's probably unlikely to be relevant anyway.
Its like that anecdote from the Democrat house member who mentioned yesterday that this was the first time Republicans and Democrats ate lunch together in years. He mentioned how a good number of Republicans told him that they are just saying that they're only opposing the election results to feed red meat to the base and that they don't actually believe in what they're saying.
Well, the dog has caught up to the car now you chucklefucks. What do Republicans do when the Trump base literally does not live in reality and have the biggest hard on for authoritarian governments and refuse to accept any reasoning because anyone who tries to reason is a liberal cuck?
On January 08 2021 12:20 brian wrote: it would seem evident on its face that a group of non doctors is ill fit to declare clinical insanity, suggesting that is not the intention as written. the amendment does not ask for a doctor to co-sign.
this is presuming the words of the constitution don’t speak clearly enough for themselves. which many argue they do.
Well, sure it speaks clearly: the above sections and title of the 25th provide context- vacancy, disability, and inability. Inability, not unwillingness. Section 1 there is literally no president because of removal, death or resignation. Section 2 is follow up to said vacancy to make sure there is a new VP Section 3 is when the president recognizes his inability (even if temporarily) and therefore cedes power. Section 4 is when the president cannot recognize his inability, so the VP and Cabinet do it for him. If the president has the capability of contesting this assessment, but the VP and Cabinet double down, then it goes to Congress to decide.
So the question is, in what context is it most likely that VP and Cabinet says he has the inability (not unwillingness) to perform duties, but the president still has the wherewithal to contend he is able, but the VP and Cabinet would say, no he definitely lacks the ability? Insanity is the most likely scenario. You're right it is open ended and does not require doctors. But I think a lot of people are equating unwillingness with inability, and I don't think that's how 'inability' in the 25th reads.
But of course because Section 4 has never been tried, we don't exactly know. But what I started out saying is it isn't so clear that anyone is 'letting' him finish as though the 25th was a tried and true method of removing a president unwilling to perform their duties.
Like you said, judgement rests with VP, cabinet and congress. Ultimately their decision probably has less to do with why you are unable and more to do with the expected severity/length of your incapacity. Unable because you are an incompetent narcissist man-child who cannot perceive reality because you are 'unwilling' is the same as unable because you are comatose and cannot perceive reality because you are unconcious. Well, except that people wake up from comas all the time whereas 45s condition is demonstrably fatal.
On January 08 2021 16:27 Danglars wrote: Only people that have no idea what Democracy is beyond some majority vote actually want to put political opponents in jail in order to prove Democracy is legit. That's banana republic stuff, through and through. New regime jails the old.
The lack of self-reflection of Danglars is really unique. I don't think I've ever met anyone that bad at questioning himself or his side. It's quite mysterious.
I want to ask you guys: I read a lot here about how the police had let the protester in the Capitol and insinuation that they were sympathetic of that operetta coup.
Looks like one policeman died in the confrontation, a woman was killed in the capitol and three more outside. How does that reconciles with the narrative that the police did nothing?
On January 08 2021 15:46 Salazarz wrote: I'm curious what's the general consensus here, since there's a lot of teeth gnashing and fist waving: do you genuinely believe that Trump and / or any of his cronies will be put on trial?
The way I see it, if he and his 'team' are allowed to walk away from this (and I think they will be) it's the last bit of evidence needed to prove that American democracy is utterly toothless and that people have lost whatever control they might have once had over their government. It will prove that those in power are untouchable, that it's not just the international law but also your very own federal law has no sway over your rulers and that for all intents and purposes, democracy is truly dead in the USA.
Generally speaking it's almost always better yo pardon the previous guys wrongdoings for a new administration.
You avoid making a martyr. You look like the great guy. You don't let the trials of your predecessor be the story of your presidency.
I don't think Biden wants TRUMP TRIAL and TRUMP IN JAIL OR NOT and TRUMP'S BASE PROTEST HIS SENTENCE and so on be the exclusive news cycles of the next two years. He has stuff to do, support to gather and legislation to fight for.
It's a no brainer usually, but this one is difficult. There is zero reason to pardon Trump, and every reason in the world to do so at the same time. I don't envy Biden.
On January 08 2021 13:20 Zambrah wrote: Doesn't have to be the 25th Amendment, can still be through impeachment and removal from office, but the message it sends to let Donald Trump remain in office is unacceptable beyond words.
EDIT: Heres something unrelated, Bernie calling for aggressive change a la FDR. I basically agree, we need to act on having the Senate, House, and President for two years and do as much as humanly possible, if Democrats even manage to make it look like they're actively working for people and helping them we might even get to keep Congress through the midterms with some luck.
The only problem is that Biden exists and all of these things that Bernie calls for are things Biden is not. Biden is very much going to have to be hardshifted into real concrete action if we're going to have any hope of accomplishing anything and potentially not having to deal with the next wave of Republican electoral victories. I highly doubt that anyone will remember this insurrection/coup attempt by the time the midterms roll around, Democrats should focus on building a positive message of change and not rely on "Republicans are the badness."
You have to realize that politicians can only do as much as their political support allows. Biden has as narrow a majority in the senate as it gets, and a coalition of voters that goes from centre right to far left.
He can push for an aggressive legislative agenda but he also needs to create some kind of consensus among his own ranks, and that's gonna be very hard. After the relatively disappointing results in the senate in december, a third of the party was yelling at him to stop the talks about socialism and another third was chanting that "look how much success that brought us." And that's logical. Democratic Senators in redder states represents voters that have very different opinions that the folks who elect the squad or Bernie.
Biden is uniquely well placed to unite the party around compromises and negotiations, but it's not gonna be easy, and the scope of the possible is not at FDR levels.
On January 08 2021 17:53 Biff The Understudy wrote: I want to ask you guys: I read a lot here about how the police had let the protester in the Capitol and insinuation that they were sympathetic of that operetta coup.
Looks like one policeman died in the confrontation, a woman was killed in the capitol and three more outside. How does that reconciles with the narrative that the police did nothing?
On January 08 2021 15:46 Salazarz wrote: I'm curious what's the general consensus here, since there's a lot of teeth gnashing and fist waving: do you genuinely believe that Trump and / or any of his cronies will be put on trial?
The way I see it, if he and his 'team' are allowed to walk away from this (and I think they will be) it's the last bit of evidence needed to prove that American democracy is utterly toothless and that people have lost whatever control they might have once had over their government. It will prove that those in power are untouchable, that it's not just the international law but also your very own federal law has no sway over your rulers and that for all intents and purposes, democracy is truly dead in the USA.
Generally speaking it's almost always better yo pardon the previous guys wrongdoings for a new administration.
You avoid making a martyr. You look like the great guy. You don't let the trials of your predecessor be the story of your presidency.
I don't think Biden wants TRUMP TRIAL and TRUMP IN JAIL OR NOT and TRUMP'S BASE PROTEST HIS SENTENCE and so on be the exclusive news cycles of the next two years. He has stuff to do, support to gather and legislation to fight for.
It's a no brainer usually, but this one is difficult. There is zero reason to pardon Trump, and every reason in the world to do so at the same time. I don't envy Biden.
On January 08 2021 13:20 Zambrah wrote: Doesn't have to be the 25th Amendment, can still be through impeachment and removal from office, but the message it sends to let Donald Trump remain in office is unacceptable beyond words.
EDIT: Heres something unrelated, Bernie calling for aggressive change a la FDR. I basically agree, we need to act on having the Senate, House, and President for two years and do as much as humanly possible, if Democrats even manage to make it look like they're actively working for people and helping them we might even get to keep Congress through the midterms with some luck.
The only problem is that Biden exists and all of these things that Bernie calls for are things Biden is not. Biden is very much going to have to be hardshifted into real concrete action if we're going to have any hope of accomplishing anything and potentially not having to deal with the next wave of Republican electoral victories. I highly doubt that anyone will remember this insurrection/coup attempt by the time the midterms roll around, Democrats should focus on building a positive message of change and not rely on "Republicans are the badness."
You have to realize that politicians can only do as much as their political support allows. Biden has as narrow a majority in the senate as it gets, and a coalition of voters that goes from centre right to far left.
He can push for an aggressive legislative agenda but he also needs to create some kind of consensus among his own ranks, and that's gonna be very hard. After the relatively disappointing results in the senate in december, a third of the party was yelling at him to stop the talks about socialism and another third was chanting that "look how much success that brought us." And that's logical. Democratic Senators in redder states represents voters that have very different opinions that the folks who elect the squad or Bernie.
Biden is uniquely well placed to unite the party around compromises and negotiations, but it's not gonna be easy, and the scope of the possible is not at FDR levels.
Trump already belongs in prison for the many business crimes he did before presidency but now it is obvious he belongs in prison. I agree that there are big pros and cons to imprisoning him. It sends a message that US democracy is not something to be toyed with and it is the just thing to do but we need to prepare for the ensuing chaos caused by Trump supporters. At this point, morally speaking, I put him on par with a murderer..
On January 08 2021 15:46 Salazarz wrote: I'm curious what's the general consensus here, since there's a lot of teeth gnashing and fist waving: do you genuinely believe that Trump and / or any of his cronies will be put on trial?
The way I see it, if he and his 'team' are allowed to walk away from this (and I think they will be) it's the last bit of evidence needed to prove that American democracy is utterly toothless and that people have lost whatever control they might have once had over their government. It will prove that those in power are untouchable, that it's not just the international law but also your very own federal law has no sway over your rulers and that for all intents and purposes, democracy is truly dead in the USA.
Biden walking in there on January 20th is proof that the people have NOT lost whatever control they might have once had over their government. He was elected to a 4 year term. And you think legal troubles upon exit is a proof Democracy is toothless. Bro, it's the shitty democracies that put political prosecutions on the opposite party once they get it. Here, he has to be investigated and they better be able to demonstrate something's wrong with the company he runs or the foundation, and it's only because a prosecutor can prove he violated the law and a jury agrees.
Luckily, it was never about "allowing" the team to walk away from it. We'll "allow" investigators to try their best to prove something bad, for all I know it'll be extensive illegal financial crimes or barely anything above a fine. Democracy was always about putting the onus of "allow" on "what we ALLOW the state to do to an elected representative once he's just a free citizen of the United States."
Go have a real point about Democracy is dead mawkish tones if the first guys violently pushing through police lines see no charges or jail time. That one's legit. Only people that have no idea what Democracy is beyond some majority vote actually want to put political opponents in jail in order to prove Democracy is legit. That's banana republic stuff, through and through. New regime jails the old.
As usual, quality commentary from you. Biden walking in there on 20th January isn't proof of anything. Trump has literally incited domestic terrorism; he has declared his support for people who are breaking the laws of this country -- him being in jail would have nothing to do with 'putting political opponents behind bars'; it would simply be following the rule of law. Maybe I'm just not American enough to understand real democracy, but South Korea jailed their last president for much less than what Trump has done -- and everyone except a tiny fraction of old ultra-conservative nationalists are happy about it (and the old ultra-conservatives that aren't happy about it are mostly acting that way isn't even because of their love for the ex-president herself but rather the fact that her daddy was the dictator who ruled the country during the 'miracle on the Han' years).
The US has already shown that your population has no desire or ability to put literal war criminals on trial (see Bush & Cheney), now it's well on course to show that domestic crimes perpetrated by your government officials are also quite okay. Putting the guys pushing through police lines in jail doesn't prove anything -- those guys aren't the government so them serving jail time or not isn't relevant at all to what I'm saying. I just find it absolutely amazing that you actually think it's acceptable for a president to incite and support the sort of actions that went down at the capitol and not be held accountable for it. I mean, the mere shouting about 'stolen elections' and 'fraud' and so on without any proof the way he's been doing would have been unacceptable in the vast majority of developed democracies, but whatever. You were saying yourself that Trump's involvement in capitol riots is 'treason level stuff' a few pages ago in this very thread -- so what, jailing a president who committed treason is banana republic stuff and grown up democracies don't operate that way?
No one in his right mind argues he belongs in prison. The question is whether it is in Biden interest to pardon him or not.
I agree that that's the big question now, but I think Biden isn't going to follow through with actually putting him on trial, for all sorts of reasons but it'll come down to some bs talk about 'national unity' and 'letting us heal together', I think. Which is a real shame, because if there was ever a chance to make an example of how abuse of power can and needs to be punished, this is absolutely it.
On January 08 2021 17:53 Biff The Understudy wrote: I want to ask you guys: I read a lot here about how the police had let the protester in the Capitol and insinuation that they were sympathetic of that operetta coup.
Looks like one policeman died in the confrontation, a woman was killed in the capitol and three more outside. How does that reconciles with the narrative that the police did nothing?
I'm not sure how that contradicts the perspective that the police force, as a whole, didn't do their job, and that many were complicit in the insurrection, unless you literally mean "nothing". To me, it strengthens it. There were thousands of violent rioters there, and the police did very little to stop them compared to the hellfire they prepare for peaceful protesters and innocent people. There was a serious double standard with the extreme lack of force used by cops to actually quell this aggression. We know that if the mob was black, they would have been mowed down in a second. Cops were taking selfies with the people planning the coup, and were even trying to give them helpful directions inside the capitol, to navigate the building. The police simply weren't doing their job objectively, and it reeked of white privilege. I'm never hoping that thousands of people get arrested or injured or killed out of the blue, but it absolutely would have been justified by the cops this time, to prevent what happened. These rioters planted bombs, took over the nation's capitol, and were looking to assassinate elected officials. And the cops' response was disproportionately low/weak, especially compared to their responses to other groups. By them not handling the situation appropriately, I see that as them being both incompetent and even complicit.
I'd think that type of pardons are more relevant as a part of a regime shift after much more severe and prolonged civil conflict. Biden shouldn't need to pardon anyone here for the country to move on. Trump is not gonna be the president on 20th, the country moves on in an ordinary constitutional order and ordinary legal processes such as the state prosecutions will take place. The system has to be strong enough to deal with this, pardon would send a message that its too toxic and divisive to deal with and feel like cowardice and portray lack of trust in the institutions of the country to work as necessary.
If anyone the pardons should possibly be given at police officers and commanders who'll be investigated and who probably are going to be the ones getting hit the hardest. There's not much the officers on the ground or their superiors could do if they didn't have the manpower and backup that they needed. Their heads are still gonna roll because they are most expendable and there is least name recognition. Whoever made the decision to not prepare for rioting is the first level where I'd assign criminal responsibility. If that decision was above someone's pay grade, there is very little gained by taking them to courts.
On January 08 2021 19:20 Oukka wrote: I'd think that type of pardons are more relevant as a part of a regime shift after much more severe and prolonged civil conflict. Biden shouldn't need to pardon anyone here for the country to move on. Trump is not gonna be the president on 20th, the country moves on in an ordinary constitutional order and ordinary legal processes such as the state prosecutions will take place. The system has to be strong enough to deal with this, pardon would send a message that its too toxic and divisive to deal with and feel like cowardice and portray lack of trust in the institutions of the country to work as necessary.
If anyone the pardons should possibly be given at police officers and commanders who'll be investigated and who probably are going to be the ones getting hit the hardest. There's not much the officers on the ground or their superiors could do if they didn't have the manpower and backup that they needed. Their heads are still gonna roll because they are most expendable and there is least name recognition. Whoever made the decision to not prepare for rioting is the first level where I'd assign criminal responsibility. If that decision was above someone's pay grade, there is very little gained by taking them to courts.
I'm being the devil's advocate here, but Trump lives and exists - and poisons everything - through publicity and media attention. Positive, negative, doesn't matter, he feeds on all of it. Going after him is giving him year of unlimited supply of publicity for the half decade to come.
I'm not saying they shouldn't. Morally and long term, I think that would be the best thing to do. But pardoning him is also a way to make him insignificant and to rob him of his precious spotlights. It must be very tempting.
The resons not to prosecute are equally valid as the reasons to do so. First of all, almost a 4th of the US population supported the storming of capitol hill, which is shocking. If Biden claims he wants to be a president of "all Americans" and unity, emprisoning Trump, who has an almost divine status for many of his supporters, makes that mission completely impossible.
On January 08 2021 16:41 StalkerTL wrote: Its like that anecdote from the Democrat house member who mentioned yesterday that this was the first time Republicans and Democrats ate lunch together in years. He mentioned how a good number of Republicans told him that they are just saying that they're only opposing the election results to feed red meat to the base and that they don't actually believe in what they're saying.
Well, the dog has caught up to the car now you chucklefucks. What do Republicans do when the Trump base literally does not live in reality and have the biggest hard on for authoritarian governments and refuse to accept any reasoning because anyone who tries to reason is a liberal cuck?
Double down and pretend its all ok. Because they still voted to contest the election.
There is no what ifs. We have their votes on record. Every single of the 138 house members and 7 senators who voted to contest the election knowing 100% with direct evidence in their very face that they had incited an insurrection. Every single one of them is a traitor to democracy, the constitution and their oath of office.
While I personally believe that the pardoning right of the president is a shitty remnant of monarchies (Trump literally used it to pardon his cronies and family) that erodes the criminal justice system, I do think that it's in Biden's best interest to pardon Trump.
It's very clear that a significant portion (39% is a number I heard thrown around) of the US populace believes the election was fraudulent and no matter how ridiculous that looks after even a little bit of research it's become abundantly clear that the US cannot long term exist without restoring the trust of it's people. Biden has mostly the trust of his party, so he needs to make an effort to reach out to the other side of the spectrum if he wants to be a president for more than 51% of his people.
As someone who has read quite a bit about the Weimar republic it's very clear that the USA is going to become a dictatorship within the next 20-30 years if it can't heal the rift between it's political parties and people. For that reforms are needed, but also reconciliation.
Also Trump certainly isn't the sole corrupt narcissistic millionaire in the USA, the system practically breeds them. He might be especially loud and happened to get elected somehow, but I'm fairly sure that you're going to find dozens like him in the USA's top 0.5%.
@republican senators: What choice exactly do they have? Confirm the election and loose their voter base who majorly doesn't agree and who doesn't trust them anyways? They were elected by these people to represent them. We see a strong disenfranchisement between Trump supporters and conservative politicians, but the US 2 party system literally doesn't allow for a separation of these.
On January 08 2021 19:44 Archeon wrote: While I personally believe that the pardoning right of the president is a shitty remnant of monarchies (Trump literally used it to pardon his cronies and family) that erodes the criminal justice system, I do think that it's in Biden's best interest to pardon Trump.
It's very clear that a significant portion (39% is a number I heard thrown around) of the US populace believes the election was fraudulent and no matter how ridiculous that looks after even a little bit of research it's become abundantly clear that the US cannot long term exist without restoring the trust of it's people. Biden has mostly the trust of his party, so he needs to make an effort to reach out to the other side of the spectrum if he wants to be a president for more than 51% of his people.
As someone who has read quite a bit about the Weimar republic it's very clear that the USA is going to become a dictatorship within the next 20-30 years if it can't heal the rift between it's political parties and people. For that reforms are needed, but also reconciliation.
Also Trump certainly isn't the sole corrupt narcissistic millionaire in the USA, the system practically breeds them. He might be especially loud and happened to get elected somehow, but I'm fairly sure that you're going to find dozens like him in the USA's top 0.5%.
And what what makes you believe the rift can be healed? What stops this from happening again in 4 years?? and again and again until one day they succeed?
Last I heard the Pennsylvania Republicans are still denying a rightfully elected and certified Democratic senator access to his position.
Fascists aren't suddenly going to see the light because you pretend they did not try to overthrow the government. They're just going to keep trying. And you certainly aren't going to make headway when they are being brainwashed 24/7 by the likes of Fox, the Trump News Network and whatever other far right publications exist.
EPT
