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On January 08 2021 00:57 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2021 00:50 Neneu wrote:On January 08 2021 00:40 Erasme wrote:On January 08 2021 00:35 Neneu wrote:On January 08 2021 00:33 Erasme wrote:On January 08 2021 00:31 Neneu wrote:On January 08 2021 00:28 Erasme wrote:On January 08 2021 00:27 Neneu wrote:On January 08 2021 00:16 Zambrah wrote:On January 08 2021 00:12 Neneu wrote:
[quote]
So... it is a democratic voting with certain guidelines on what you are allowed to vote on? "He said he would murder people if we voted him in office!" Person proceeds to murder people. "We can't remove him from office, the people voted him in so he could murder people!" This is not a situation where we go, "oh their rampant election fraud conspiracy theories just incited a proto-fascist insurrection at the Capitol of the United States, we should continue to let them peddle election fraud conspiracy theories while in one of the most powerful positions in the US in order to continue to incite proto-fascist action." Letting these people off the hook for this is dooming America to a real actual fascist future. The problem is that this is dangerously close to how democracies fall. Removing a large part of elected officials of one party in a two party system, because they thought the majority party had a fraudulent election is not very advantageous if you want to reinforce your population's belief in democracy. Rather it is a recipe for civil war in the future. So, you would let them peddle their conspiracy theories ad infinitum ? That would never be a recipe for civil war... Well there have been more democracies that have fallen to party members of the opposition being removed from parliament by the ruling party after an election or attack on the nation, than there have been by conspiracy theories ad infinitum. So yes I would take my chances. Just to be clear, you're only opposed against removing them from their office ? Or are you opposing any kind of punishment ? I assume you want Trump to walk free too ? I am against removing elected senators for what they have voted, due to what their constituents wants. That does not scream democracy to me nor a bright future for your country. But there's a very clear precedent. 4 senators were expelled for supporting the confederate rebellion. Those guys supported the trump rebellion. Also their constituents only want this because they are being fed 24/7 trump news by those very same senators. You're willing to let democracy fall because you would be too scared for the consequences. But doing nothing now just makes the issue worse down the line. I would say there's a pretty major difference between the confederate rebellion and a mob attacking the capitol hill, due to conspiracy theories about a fraudulent election. What makes you think those constituents will stop being fed 24/7 trump news by those very same senators (in this scenario, ex-senators)? Are you going to censor media or internet? If anything, you have made them martyrs and shown them that they need to some real changes to the constitution if the "communists" can just evict their elected members for voting for what they want. Removing senators like this after yesterday's tragic event just shows that your democracy and its believes in it, is weak and no longer fit for survival. A strong democracy would prevail and keep it core values. Your version of a 'strong' democracy would stand by and no nothing as fascists try to overthrow it time and time again until one day they succeed and then there won't be a vote to put back democracy. America is not a strong democracy, if it was it wouldn't be where it is now. It is already failing.
Quite the opposite, I refuse to accept the worldview of terrorists and give more power to fascists. If you think the removal of the elected officials will reduce the support for the fascists, you are horribly mistaken. They might lose some power short-term, but you are fueling the fire and someone worse will come and replace them. The people who elected them won't go away. Long-term the fascists will gain a lot more traction and power. Their propaganda will portray you as the authoritarians and it will work, big time.
Fighting fascism is not always as easy at it seems, however having the ruling party throw out big part of the opposition is not the right way nor a way for the democratic system to survive long-term. You fight them in the courts and charge them for the laws they have broken.
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Probably I'm wrong. Afterall, I am hardly an expert in US government law. But once there is a substantial amount of people in power intent on dismantling a democratic government, what do you think is the best answer to that? Or when that point has been reached is it already too late?
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On January 08 2021 01:14 Neneu wrote:
Fighting fascism is not always as easy at it seems, however having the ruling party throw out big part of the opposition is not the right way nor a way for the democratic system to survive long-term.
No-one is suggesting to throw out the opposition, i.e. to replace them with a different party or to leave the seat empty, but to replace them with people who aren't actively using their position to try to overthrow a democratic election. To simply leave it as it is right now per your suggestion is set up for the American democratic system to cease to exist in the short term.
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On January 08 2021 01:18 Dangermousecatdog wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2021 01:14 Neneu wrote:
Fighting fascism is not always as easy at it seems, however having the ruling party throw out big part of the opposition is not the right way nor a way for the democratic system to survive long-term. No-one is suggesting to throw out the opposition, i.e. to replace them with a different party or to leave the seat empty, but to replace them with people who aren't actively using their position to try to overthrow a democratic election. To simply leave it as it is right now per your suggestion is set up for the American democratic system to cease to exist in the short term.
People are suggesting to throw out a large amount of the elected members of the opposition. What type of people do you think their constituents are going to elect after seeing the majority party throwing them out for voting on something they believe in?
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On January 08 2021 01:00 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2021 00:56 Erasme wrote:On January 08 2021 00:54 Neneu wrote:On January 08 2021 00:52 Erasme wrote:On January 08 2021 00:52 Neneu wrote:On January 08 2021 00:51 Erasme wrote:On January 08 2021 00:50 Neneu wrote:On January 08 2021 00:40 Erasme wrote:On January 08 2021 00:35 Neneu wrote:On January 08 2021 00:33 Erasme wrote:
[quote]
Just to be clear, you're only opposed against removing them from their office ? Or are you opposing any kind of punishment ? I assume you want Trump to walk free too ? I am against removing elected senators for what they have voted, due to what their constituents wants. That does not scream democracy to me nor a bright future for your country. But there's a very clear precedent. 4 senators were expelled for supporting the confederate rebellion. Those guys supported the trump rebellion. Also their constituents only want this because they are being fed 24/7 trump news by those very same senators. You're willing to let democracy fall because you would be too scared for the consequences. But doing nothing now just makes the issue worse down the line. I would say there's a pretty major difference between the confederate rebellion and a mob attacking the capitol hill, due to conspiracy theories about a fraudulent election. What makes you think those constituents will stop being fed 24/7 trump news by those very same senators (in this scenario, ex-senators)? Are you going to censor media or internet? If anything, you have made them martyrs and shown them that they need to some real changes to the constitution if the "communists" can just evict their elected members for voting for what they want. Removing senators like this after yesterday's tragic event just shows that your democracy and its believes in it, is weak and no longer fit for survival. A strong democracy would prevail and keep it core values. It's hard to peddle conspiracy theories after you've been judged and sentenced to prison. Is it? How many do you expect to sentence and for how long? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treason_laws_in_the_United_StatesUp to 20years. But how many? Considering we are talking about ending trump news 24/7 and the conspiracy theories. On January 08 2021 00:52 maybenexttime wrote:On January 08 2021 00:20 Neneu wrote:On January 08 2021 00:15 IyMoon wrote:On January 08 2021 00:12 Neneu wrote:On January 08 2021 00:10 Zambrah wrote:On January 08 2021 00:08 Neneu wrote:
I hate to be that guy, but you do realize the irony of removing senators who voted what many of their constituents believe, that the election was a fraud, in the name of democracy?
Take a breather. Democracy will prevail as long as you don't throw it under a bus while trying to preserve it. Voting for treasonous people does not give them license to be treasonous. This is SO FAR from the moment to be taking a breather. So... it is a democratic voting with certain guidelines on what you are allowed to vote on? Representatives are supposed to use their better judgement, and in some cases, go against the will of the constituents incase that will is harmful. Otherwise, theres no point in having representatives. You could just post everything to a national/state/local vote What if their representatives are stupid or strong ideologues who actually believes it as well? Then they have exerted their better judgement. The point is, removing senators after something like what happened yesterday because of what they have voted, is something only banana republics are doing. I never thought of US as one, however some think of it as one after yesterday's attack on democracy. If you remove the senators you would be proving them right however. I disagree. Those people tried to give political legitimacy to an attempted coup. They should go, although ideally it should be the GOP holding them accountable. I 100% agree, they should either resign or GOP should force them to be accountable. However, the ruling party are not the ones who should evict the members of the opposition. Ideally all of them, but I could go with the most vocal of them. Lawsuits for OANN/Newsmax and the rest of those fringe alternative reality medias. We absolutely HAVE to get them to do this as soon as humanly possible.
I agree with this. If You dont act now, nothing is going to happen. They will be free to do it over and over again.
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On January 08 2021 01:14 Neneu wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2021 00:57 Gorsameth wrote:On January 08 2021 00:50 Neneu wrote:On January 08 2021 00:40 Erasme wrote:On January 08 2021 00:35 Neneu wrote:On January 08 2021 00:33 Erasme wrote:On January 08 2021 00:31 Neneu wrote:On January 08 2021 00:28 Erasme wrote:On January 08 2021 00:27 Neneu wrote:On January 08 2021 00:16 Zambrah wrote:
[quote]
"He said he would murder people if we voted him in office!"
Person proceeds to murder people.
"We can't remove him from office, the people voted him in so he could murder people!"
This is not a situation where we go, "oh their rampant election fraud conspiracy theories just incited a proto-fascist insurrection at the Capitol of the United States, we should continue to let them peddle election fraud conspiracy theories while in one of the most powerful positions in the US in order to continue to incite proto-fascist action."
Letting these people off the hook for this is dooming America to a real actual fascist future. The problem is that this is dangerously close to how democracies fall. Removing a large part of elected officials of one party in a two party system, because they thought the majority party had a fraudulent election is not very advantageous if you want to reinforce your population's belief in democracy. Rather it is a recipe for civil war in the future. So, you would let them peddle their conspiracy theories ad infinitum ? That would never be a recipe for civil war... Well there have been more democracies that have fallen to party members of the opposition being removed from parliament by the ruling party after an election or attack on the nation, than there have been by conspiracy theories ad infinitum. So yes I would take my chances. Just to be clear, you're only opposed against removing them from their office ? Or are you opposing any kind of punishment ? I assume you want Trump to walk free too ? I am against removing elected senators for what they have voted, due to what their constituents wants. That does not scream democracy to me nor a bright future for your country. But there's a very clear precedent. 4 senators were expelled for supporting the confederate rebellion. Those guys supported the trump rebellion. Also their constituents only want this because they are being fed 24/7 trump news by those very same senators. You're willing to let democracy fall because you would be too scared for the consequences. But doing nothing now just makes the issue worse down the line. I would say there's a pretty major difference between the confederate rebellion and a mob attacking the capitol hill, due to conspiracy theories about a fraudulent election. What makes you think those constituents will stop being fed 24/7 trump news by those very same senators (in this scenario, ex-senators)? Are you going to censor media or internet? If anything, you have made them martyrs and shown them that they need to some real changes to the constitution if the "communists" can just evict their elected members for voting for what they want. Removing senators like this after yesterday's tragic event just shows that your democracy and its believes in it, is weak and no longer fit for survival. A strong democracy would prevail and keep it core values. Your version of a 'strong' democracy would stand by and no nothing as fascists try to overthrow it time and time again until one day they succeed and then there won't be a vote to put back democracy. America is not a strong democracy, if it was it wouldn't be where it is now. It is already failing. Quite the opposite, I refuse to accept the worldview of terrorists and give more power to fascists. If you think the removal of the elected officials will reduce the support for the fascists, you are horribly mistaken. They might lose some power short-term, but you are fueling the fire and someone worse will come and replace them. The people who elected them won't go away. Long-term the fascists will gain a lot more traction and power. Their propaganda will portray you as the authoritarians and it will work, big time. Fighting fascism is not always as easy at it seems, however having the ruling party throw out big part of the opposition is not the right way nor a way for the democratic system to survive long-term. You fight them in the courts and charge them for the laws they have broken. and indulging them gets better results how?
They will still not go away (hence why I think America is doomed) and they will keep being brazen. Someone worse is still going to replace them eventually (a smarter person then Trump tapping into the same demographic is basically a given at this point, only question is when) and their propaganda already doesn't care about reality so none of that matters anyway.
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On January 08 2021 01:22 Neneu wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2021 01:18 Dangermousecatdog wrote:On January 08 2021 01:14 Neneu wrote:
Fighting fascism is not always as easy at it seems, however having the ruling party throw out big part of the opposition is not the right way nor a way for the democratic system to survive long-term. No-one is suggesting to throw out the opposition, i.e. to replace them with a different party or to leave the seat empty, but to replace them with people who aren't actively using their position to try to overthrow a democratic election. To simply leave it as it is right now per your suggestion is set up for the American democratic system to cease to exist in the short term. People are suggesting to throw out a large amount of the elected members of the opposition. What type of people do you think their constituents are going to elect after seeing the majority party throwing them out for voting on something they believe in?
So do nothing?
If we dont punish these people then we're rewarding them. Being allowed to encourage INSURRECTION and then having THE CAPITOL BUILDING be invaded because of your encouragement and then CONTINUING to peddle your bullshit is how fascism takes root.
This is the moment right here. This is where we decided if fascism is going to take hold in America or if we're going to root it out as wholly unacceptable.
Refusing to materially impact these proto-fascist shitbirds is rewarding the development of fascism in the US.
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On January 08 2021 01:27 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2021 01:14 Neneu wrote:On January 08 2021 00:57 Gorsameth wrote:On January 08 2021 00:50 Neneu wrote:On January 08 2021 00:40 Erasme wrote:On January 08 2021 00:35 Neneu wrote:On January 08 2021 00:33 Erasme wrote:On January 08 2021 00:31 Neneu wrote:On January 08 2021 00:28 Erasme wrote:On January 08 2021 00:27 Neneu wrote:
[quote]
The problem is that this is dangerously close to how democracies fall. Removing a large part of elected officials of one party in a two party system, because they thought the majority party had a fraudulent election is not very advantageous if you want to reinforce your population's belief in democracy. Rather it is a recipe for civil war in the future. So, you would let them peddle their conspiracy theories ad infinitum ? That would never be a recipe for civil war... Well there have been more democracies that have fallen to party members of the opposition being removed from parliament by the ruling party after an election or attack on the nation, than there have been by conspiracy theories ad infinitum. So yes I would take my chances. Just to be clear, you're only opposed against removing them from their office ? Or are you opposing any kind of punishment ? I assume you want Trump to walk free too ? I am against removing elected senators for what they have voted, due to what their constituents wants. That does not scream democracy to me nor a bright future for your country. But there's a very clear precedent. 4 senators were expelled for supporting the confederate rebellion. Those guys supported the trump rebellion. Also their constituents only want this because they are being fed 24/7 trump news by those very same senators. You're willing to let democracy fall because you would be too scared for the consequences. But doing nothing now just makes the issue worse down the line. I would say there's a pretty major difference between the confederate rebellion and a mob attacking the capitol hill, due to conspiracy theories about a fraudulent election. What makes you think those constituents will stop being fed 24/7 trump news by those very same senators (in this scenario, ex-senators)? Are you going to censor media or internet? If anything, you have made them martyrs and shown them that they need to some real changes to the constitution if the "communists" can just evict their elected members for voting for what they want. Removing senators like this after yesterday's tragic event just shows that your democracy and its believes in it, is weak and no longer fit for survival. A strong democracy would prevail and keep it core values. Your version of a 'strong' democracy would stand by and no nothing as fascists try to overthrow it time and time again until one day they succeed and then there won't be a vote to put back democracy. America is not a strong democracy, if it was it wouldn't be where it is now. It is already failing. Quite the opposite, I refuse to accept the worldview of terrorists and give more power to fascists. If you think the removal of the elected officials will reduce the support for the fascists, you are horribly mistaken. They might lose some power short-term, but you are fueling the fire and someone worse will come and replace them. The people who elected them won't go away. Long-term the fascists will gain a lot more traction and power. Their propaganda will portray you as the authoritarians and it will work, big time. Fighting fascism is not always as easy at it seems, however having the ruling party throw out big part of the opposition is not the right way nor a way for the democratic system to survive long-term. You fight them in the courts and charge them for the laws they have broken. and indulging them gets better results how? They will still not go away (hence why I think America is doomed) and they will keep being brazen. Someone worse is still going to replace them eventually (a smarter person then Trump tapping into the same demographic is basically a given at this point, only question is when) and their propaganda already doesn't care about reality so none of that matters anyway.
How is not removing 120+ elected members indulging the fascists? Removing those elected officials just hastens the implosion of USA's democracy and the voters belief in it.
The best way to lie is to lie as close to truth as possible. Something like this just makes the lie better.
EDIT:
So do nothing?
If we dont punish these people then we're rewarding them. Being allowed to encourage INSURRECTION and then having THE CAPITOL BUILDING be invaded because of your encouragement and then CONTINUING to peddle your bullshit is how fascism takes root.
This is the moment right here. This is where we decided if fascism is going to take hold in America or if we're going to root it out as wholly unacceptable.
Refusing to materially impact these proto-fascist shitbirds is rewarding the development of fascism in the US.
Where have I said do nothing? Charge them for the laws they have broken. Use their hypocrisy to burn their rhetoric down and show the fascists for what they are really are. But do not trample on democracy while you do it, the very thing they wanted removed.
If you remove Cruz from office, do you think that will reduce or increase his chance for winning in 2024?
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On January 08 2021 01:33 Neneu wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2021 01:27 Gorsameth wrote:On January 08 2021 01:14 Neneu wrote:On January 08 2021 00:57 Gorsameth wrote:On January 08 2021 00:50 Neneu wrote:On January 08 2021 00:40 Erasme wrote:On January 08 2021 00:35 Neneu wrote:On January 08 2021 00:33 Erasme wrote:On January 08 2021 00:31 Neneu wrote:On January 08 2021 00:28 Erasme wrote:
[quote]
So, you would let them peddle their conspiracy theories ad infinitum ? That would never be a recipe for civil war... Well there have been more democracies that have fallen to party members of the opposition being removed from parliament by the ruling party after an election or attack on the nation, than there have been by conspiracy theories ad infinitum. So yes I would take my chances. Just to be clear, you're only opposed against removing them from their office ? Or are you opposing any kind of punishment ? I assume you want Trump to walk free too ? I am against removing elected senators for what they have voted, due to what their constituents wants. That does not scream democracy to me nor a bright future for your country. But there's a very clear precedent. 4 senators were expelled for supporting the confederate rebellion. Those guys supported the trump rebellion. Also their constituents only want this because they are being fed 24/7 trump news by those very same senators. You're willing to let democracy fall because you would be too scared for the consequences. But doing nothing now just makes the issue worse down the line. I would say there's a pretty major difference between the confederate rebellion and a mob attacking the capitol hill, due to conspiracy theories about a fraudulent election. What makes you think those constituents will stop being fed 24/7 trump news by those very same senators (in this scenario, ex-senators)? Are you going to censor media or internet? If anything, you have made them martyrs and shown them that they need to some real changes to the constitution if the "communists" can just evict their elected members for voting for what they want. Removing senators like this after yesterday's tragic event just shows that your democracy and its believes in it, is weak and no longer fit for survival. A strong democracy would prevail and keep it core values. Your version of a 'strong' democracy would stand by and no nothing as fascists try to overthrow it time and time again until one day they succeed and then there won't be a vote to put back democracy. America is not a strong democracy, if it was it wouldn't be where it is now. It is already failing. Quite the opposite, I refuse to accept the worldview of terrorists and give more power to fascists. If you think the removal of the elected officials will reduce the support for the fascists, you are horribly mistaken. They might lose some power short-term, but you are fueling the fire and someone worse will come and replace them. The people who elected them won't go away. Long-term the fascists will gain a lot more traction and power. Their propaganda will portray you as the authoritarians and it will work, big time. Fighting fascism is not always as easy at it seems, however having the ruling party throw out big part of the opposition is not the right way nor a way for the democratic system to survive long-term. You fight them in the courts and charge them for the laws they have broken. and indulging them gets better results how? They will still not go away (hence why I think America is doomed) and they will keep being brazen. Someone worse is still going to replace them eventually (a smarter person then Trump tapping into the same demographic is basically a given at this point, only question is when) and their propaganda already doesn't care about reality so none of that matters anyway. How is not removing 120+ elected members indulging the fascists? Removing those elected officials just hastens the implosion of USA's democracy and the voters belief in it. The best way to lie is to lie as close to truth as possible. Something like this just makes the lie better. letting fascists keep trying to overthrow until they eventually succeeds very sounds like indulging the fascists. Eventually they will succeed. And that is what doing nothing does.
And if you still think you need to lie close to the truth you have not been paying attention to Trump.
The lies are brazen as fuck.
This isn't Norway, where I assume people are (mostly) rational. We are talking about America.
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On January 08 2021 01:33 Neneu wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2021 01:27 Gorsameth wrote:On January 08 2021 01:14 Neneu wrote:On January 08 2021 00:57 Gorsameth wrote:On January 08 2021 00:50 Neneu wrote:On January 08 2021 00:40 Erasme wrote:On January 08 2021 00:35 Neneu wrote:On January 08 2021 00:33 Erasme wrote:On January 08 2021 00:31 Neneu wrote:On January 08 2021 00:28 Erasme wrote:
[quote]
So, you would let them peddle their conspiracy theories ad infinitum ? That would never be a recipe for civil war... Well there have been more democracies that have fallen to party members of the opposition being removed from parliament by the ruling party after an election or attack on the nation, than there have been by conspiracy theories ad infinitum. So yes I would take my chances. Just to be clear, you're only opposed against removing them from their office ? Or are you opposing any kind of punishment ? I assume you want Trump to walk free too ? I am against removing elected senators for what they have voted, due to what their constituents wants. That does not scream democracy to me nor a bright future for your country. But there's a very clear precedent. 4 senators were expelled for supporting the confederate rebellion. Those guys supported the trump rebellion. Also their constituents only want this because they are being fed 24/7 trump news by those very same senators. You're willing to let democracy fall because you would be too scared for the consequences. But doing nothing now just makes the issue worse down the line. I would say there's a pretty major difference between the confederate rebellion and a mob attacking the capitol hill, due to conspiracy theories about a fraudulent election. What makes you think those constituents will stop being fed 24/7 trump news by those very same senators (in this scenario, ex-senators)? Are you going to censor media or internet? If anything, you have made them martyrs and shown them that they need to some real changes to the constitution if the "communists" can just evict their elected members for voting for what they want. Removing senators like this after yesterday's tragic event just shows that your democracy and its believes in it, is weak and no longer fit for survival. A strong democracy would prevail and keep it core values. Your version of a 'strong' democracy would stand by and no nothing as fascists try to overthrow it time and time again until one day they succeed and then there won't be a vote to put back democracy. America is not a strong democracy, if it was it wouldn't be where it is now. It is already failing. Quite the opposite, I refuse to accept the worldview of terrorists and give more power to fascists. If you think the removal of the elected officials will reduce the support for the fascists, you are horribly mistaken. They might lose some power short-term, but you are fueling the fire and someone worse will come and replace them. The people who elected them won't go away. Long-term the fascists will gain a lot more traction and power. Their propaganda will portray you as the authoritarians and it will work, big time. Fighting fascism is not always as easy at it seems, however having the ruling party throw out big part of the opposition is not the right way nor a way for the democratic system to survive long-term. You fight them in the courts and charge them for the laws they have broken. and indulging them gets better results how? They will still not go away (hence why I think America is doomed) and they will keep being brazen. Someone worse is still going to replace them eventually (a smarter person then Trump tapping into the same demographic is basically a given at this point, only question is when) and their propaganda already doesn't care about reality so none of that matters anyway. How is not removing 120+ elected members indulging the fascists? Removing those elected officials just hastens the implosion of USA's democracy and the voters belief in it. The best way to lie is to lie as close to truth as possible. Something like this just makes the lie better.
We shouldn't let the lie be the framing.
The framing needs to be "These people engaged in sedition and encouraged an insurrection that breached the walls of the Capitol and made a mockery of the US in an effort to change the outcome of the Presidential election, this is conduct unbecoming of a congressperson's oath to support and defend the constitution, and for this conduct we are deciding to expel them from Congress."
Fascists only get to dictate the framing of a situation if we let them dictate it.
Where have I said do nothing? Charge them for the laws they have broken. Use their hypocrisy to burn their rhetoric down and show the fascists for what they are really are. But do not trample on democracy while you do it, the very thing they wanted removed.
If you remove Cruz from office, do you think that will reduce or increase his chance for winning in 2024?
Their hypocrisy has been brazenly on display for YEARS. This does not work against Republicans, this is not an option to keep them out of power, they can lie, they can cheat, they can do whatever they want and their constituents will literally never hold them accountable for anything as long as they peddle anti-choice and pro-gun shit.
And when we remove them from office we bar them from ever holding public office again.
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On January 08 2021 01:22 Neneu wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2021 01:18 Dangermousecatdog wrote:On January 08 2021 01:14 Neneu wrote:
Fighting fascism is not always as easy at it seems, however having the ruling party throw out big part of the opposition is not the right way nor a way for the democratic system to survive long-term. No-one is suggesting to throw out the opposition, i.e. to replace them with a different party or to leave the seat empty, but to replace them with people who aren't actively using their position to try to overthrow a democratic election. To simply leave it as it is right now per your suggestion is set up for the American democratic system to cease to exist in the short term. People are suggesting to throw out a large amount of the elected members of the opposition. What type of people do you think their constituents are going to elect after seeing the majority party throwing them out for voting on something they believe in?
They can elect the same type of people, maybe worse, maybe better. That doesn't matter. Right now USA is on course to become an authoritarian state. 6 senators voted and 121 of house representatives just voted to overturn democracy, with seemingly no repercussions whatsoever. With only that much support, an armed mob managed forcibly break into Capitol building after being addressed and incited upon by Trump who continued to incite them. All this happened less than 24 hours ago.
What do you think happens when it become 12 senators, and 242 representatives? What happens when the next figurehead is someone who looks respectable, doesn't boast of grabbing women by the pussy, and is intellectually and emotionally competent? You like to say that the idea of removing those who seak to use their democratically elected power to undermine that same democracy is not the best course of action. Then tell me, what do you think is the best course of action?
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On January 08 2021 01:33 Neneu wrote:Where have I said do nothing? Charge them for the laws they have broken. Use their hypocrisy to burn their rhetoric down and show the fascists for what they are really are. But do not trample on democracy while you do it, the very thing they wanted removed.
If you remove Cruz from office, do you think that will reduce or increase his chance for winning in 2024? Go back a few pages to the discussion that was just had with Bezerksword who thinks the left is the ones destroying the consitution because he can't have an ak74 and thinks Trump is better because he pretends to care.
You will not convince these people they are wrong.
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I don't think the Democrats should do anything unless asked to, but an internal purge in the GoP should happen, as well as investigating and charge people if crimes were committed.
I agree completely that politicians need to be held accountable for their lies again.
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On January 08 2021 01:38 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2021 01:33 Neneu wrote:On January 08 2021 01:27 Gorsameth wrote:On January 08 2021 01:14 Neneu wrote:On January 08 2021 00:57 Gorsameth wrote:On January 08 2021 00:50 Neneu wrote:On January 08 2021 00:40 Erasme wrote:On January 08 2021 00:35 Neneu wrote:On January 08 2021 00:33 Erasme wrote:On January 08 2021 00:31 Neneu wrote:
[quote]
Well there have been more democracies that have fallen to party members of the opposition being removed from parliament by the ruling party after an election or attack on the nation, than there have been by conspiracy theories ad infinitum. So yes I would take my chances.
Just to be clear, you're only opposed against removing them from their office ? Or are you opposing any kind of punishment ? I assume you want Trump to walk free too ? I am against removing elected senators for what they have voted, due to what their constituents wants. That does not scream democracy to me nor a bright future for your country. But there's a very clear precedent. 4 senators were expelled for supporting the confederate rebellion. Those guys supported the trump rebellion. Also their constituents only want this because they are being fed 24/7 trump news by those very same senators. You're willing to let democracy fall because you would be too scared for the consequences. But doing nothing now just makes the issue worse down the line. I would say there's a pretty major difference between the confederate rebellion and a mob attacking the capitol hill, due to conspiracy theories about a fraudulent election. What makes you think those constituents will stop being fed 24/7 trump news by those very same senators (in this scenario, ex-senators)? Are you going to censor media or internet? If anything, you have made them martyrs and shown them that they need to some real changes to the constitution if the "communists" can just evict their elected members for voting for what they want. Removing senators like this after yesterday's tragic event just shows that your democracy and its believes in it, is weak and no longer fit for survival. A strong democracy would prevail and keep it core values. Your version of a 'strong' democracy would stand by and no nothing as fascists try to overthrow it time and time again until one day they succeed and then there won't be a vote to put back democracy. America is not a strong democracy, if it was it wouldn't be where it is now. It is already failing. Quite the opposite, I refuse to accept the worldview of terrorists and give more power to fascists. If you think the removal of the elected officials will reduce the support for the fascists, you are horribly mistaken. They might lose some power short-term, but you are fueling the fire and someone worse will come and replace them. The people who elected them won't go away. Long-term the fascists will gain a lot more traction and power. Their propaganda will portray you as the authoritarians and it will work, big time. Fighting fascism is not always as easy at it seems, however having the ruling party throw out big part of the opposition is not the right way nor a way for the democratic system to survive long-term. You fight them in the courts and charge them for the laws they have broken. and indulging them gets better results how? They will still not go away (hence why I think America is doomed) and they will keep being brazen. Someone worse is still going to replace them eventually (a smarter person then Trump tapping into the same demographic is basically a given at this point, only question is when) and their propaganda already doesn't care about reality so none of that matters anyway. How is not removing 120+ elected members indulging the fascists? Removing those elected officials just hastens the implosion of USA's democracy and the voters belief in it. The best way to lie is to lie as close to truth as possible. Something like this just makes the lie better. letting fascists keep trying to overthrow until they eventually succeeds very sounds like indulging the fascists. Eventually they will succeed. And that is what doing nothing does.
And if you still think you need to lie close to the truth you have not been paying attention to Trump.
The lies are brazen as fuck.This isn't Norway, where I assume people are (mostly) rational. We are talking about America.
Exactly. What do you think happens when they become close to the truth? Will it reduce or increase the support of them?
Also nowhere have I said that you should let fascists keep trying to overthrow nor that what have happened shouldn't have repercussions. I have however been opposed to trampling on democracy as a response to the attack on democracy.
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On January 08 2021 01:40 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2021 01:33 Neneu wrote:Where have I said do nothing? Charge them for the laws they have broken. Use their hypocrisy to burn their rhetoric down and show the fascists for what they are really are. But do not trample on democracy while you do it, the very thing they wanted removed.
If you remove Cruz from office, do you think that will reduce or increase his chance for winning in 2024? Go back a few pages to the discussion that was just had with Bezerksword who thinks the left is the ones destroying the consitution because he can't have an ak74 and thinks Trump is better because he pretends to care. You will not convince these people they are wrong.
The thing though is that it isn't those people the lies will convince. They are already convinced. They were convinced by the brazen lies. These lies aren't targeted at them. These lies are targeted at much a larger "moderate" population who need more subtle and forceful lies to be convinced.
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Facebook and Instagram banning trump indefinitely is a good sign. Hopefully Twitter comes next
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Democracy isn't just the expression of the will of the majority. Democracy also involves adhering to democratic ideals itself. If democracy cannot defend against sedition against democratic state, then that government is doomed when that same democratic means allows itself be dismantled.
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On January 08 2021 01:41 Neneu wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2021 01:38 Gorsameth wrote:On January 08 2021 01:33 Neneu wrote:On January 08 2021 01:27 Gorsameth wrote:On January 08 2021 01:14 Neneu wrote:On January 08 2021 00:57 Gorsameth wrote:On January 08 2021 00:50 Neneu wrote:On January 08 2021 00:40 Erasme wrote:On January 08 2021 00:35 Neneu wrote:On January 08 2021 00:33 Erasme wrote:
[quote]
Just to be clear, you're only opposed against removing them from their office ? Or are you opposing any kind of punishment ? I assume you want Trump to walk free too ? I am against removing elected senators for what they have voted, due to what their constituents wants. That does not scream democracy to me nor a bright future for your country. But there's a very clear precedent. 4 senators were expelled for supporting the confederate rebellion. Those guys supported the trump rebellion. Also their constituents only want this because they are being fed 24/7 trump news by those very same senators. You're willing to let democracy fall because you would be too scared for the consequences. But doing nothing now just makes the issue worse down the line. I would say there's a pretty major difference between the confederate rebellion and a mob attacking the capitol hill, due to conspiracy theories about a fraudulent election. What makes you think those constituents will stop being fed 24/7 trump news by those very same senators (in this scenario, ex-senators)? Are you going to censor media or internet? If anything, you have made them martyrs and shown them that they need to some real changes to the constitution if the "communists" can just evict their elected members for voting for what they want. Removing senators like this after yesterday's tragic event just shows that your democracy and its believes in it, is weak and no longer fit for survival. A strong democracy would prevail and keep it core values. Your version of a 'strong' democracy would stand by and no nothing as fascists try to overthrow it time and time again until one day they succeed and then there won't be a vote to put back democracy. America is not a strong democracy, if it was it wouldn't be where it is now. It is already failing. Quite the opposite, I refuse to accept the worldview of terrorists and give more power to fascists. If you think the removal of the elected officials will reduce the support for the fascists, you are horribly mistaken. They might lose some power short-term, but you are fueling the fire and someone worse will come and replace them. The people who elected them won't go away. Long-term the fascists will gain a lot more traction and power. Their propaganda will portray you as the authoritarians and it will work, big time. Fighting fascism is not always as easy at it seems, however having the ruling party throw out big part of the opposition is not the right way nor a way for the democratic system to survive long-term. You fight them in the courts and charge them for the laws they have broken. and indulging them gets better results how? They will still not go away (hence why I think America is doomed) and they will keep being brazen. Someone worse is still going to replace them eventually (a smarter person then Trump tapping into the same demographic is basically a given at this point, only question is when) and their propaganda already doesn't care about reality so none of that matters anyway. How is not removing 120+ elected members indulging the fascists? Removing those elected officials just hastens the implosion of USA's democracy and the voters belief in it. The best way to lie is to lie as close to truth as possible. Something like this just makes the lie better. letting fascists keep trying to overthrow until they eventually succeeds very sounds like indulging the fascists. Eventually they will succeed. And that is what doing nothing does.
And if you still think you need to lie close to the truth you have not been paying attention to Trump.
The lies are brazen as fuck.This isn't Norway, where I assume people are (mostly) rational. We are talking about America. Exactly. What do you think happens when they become close to the truth? Will it reduce or increase the support of them? Also nowhere have I said that you should let fascists keep trying to overthrow nor that what have happened shouldn't have repercussions. I have however been opposed to trampling on democracy as a response to the attack on democracy.
It wont change the support of the lies because they're already widely believed to be true. Theres no way for them to become more perceived as true by these people, they already believe them to be true. They believe lies, there is no making them believe the lies even harder than they do no.
On January 08 2021 01:43 Neneu wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2021 01:40 Gorsameth wrote:On January 08 2021 01:33 Neneu wrote:Where have I said do nothing? Charge them for the laws they have broken. Use their hypocrisy to burn their rhetoric down and show the fascists for what they are really are. But do not trample on democracy while you do it, the very thing they wanted removed.
If you remove Cruz from office, do you think that will reduce or increase his chance for winning in 2024? Go back a few pages to the discussion that was just had with Bezerksword who thinks the left is the ones destroying the consitution because he can't have an ak74 and thinks Trump is better because he pretends to care. You will not convince these people they are wrong. The thing though is that it isn't those people the lies will convince. They are already convinced. They were convinced by the brazen lies. These lies aren't targeted at them. These lies are targeted at much a larger "moderate" population who need more subtle and forceful lies to be convinced.
If a supposed moderate can see what happens yesterday, understand that lots of congresspeople were pushing for something like it to happen, and then still think maybe they should start believing lies then they were never going to stop supporting these people to begin with, which means they probably were and are already happy to play along with the lies regardless of whether or not they believe them.
If they're sane then they'd say, "thats fair, take them out, they did a really really bad thing and we shouldn't let that happen."
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Removing people who oppose democracy isnt an attack on it, quite the opposite..
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EPT
