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To be precise, the time to act was when DJT started his alternative reality. Being conned isn't a good excuse to overthrow democracy.
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Aside from expelling the GOP, we should also take from yesterday that a great case has been made for DC statehood.
The fact that it took so long to call in the National Guard yesterday because of Trump is a disgrace, DC statehood would help that problem not occur again, not to mention all of the obvious stuff about them being taxed without representation and thus being kind of being an example of that thing we fought the Revolutionary War over.
Long list of things we need to be pushing Democrats to do in the aftermath of this.
.
Too bad CONGRESS IS OUT OF SESSION 'TIL THE INAUGURATION. Seriously, they need to get their asses back to work, there is no excuse for inaction at this time.
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On January 08 2021 00:34 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2021 00:26 Silvanel wrote:
What i would do personally is not expell everyone who voted against the election result, just people who fueled the flame (on twitter, facebook and rallies) and actively encouraged this type of behavior. Do a proper invaestigation, get rid of those who contributed the most to violence. You think voting in favour of overturning the election isn't actively encouraging the people who assaulted the capitol?
It is. However some are more guilty of this than others and I also think that expelling some people (<10) is much more feasible than expelling 120+ members. You need to not only about what is right but also what can be achieved and also what happens afterwards.
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On January 08 2021 00:31 Neneu wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2021 00:28 Erasme wrote:On January 08 2021 00:27 Neneu wrote:On January 08 2021 00:16 Zambrah wrote:On January 08 2021 00:12 Neneu wrote:On January 08 2021 00:10 Zambrah wrote:On January 08 2021 00:08 Neneu wrote:
I hate to be that guy, but you do realize the irony of removing senators who voted what many of their constituents believe, that the election was a fraud, in the name of democracy?
Take a breather. Democracy will prevail as long as you don't throw it under a bus while trying to preserve it. Voting for treasonous people does not give them license to be treasonous. This is SO FAR from the moment to be taking a breather. So... it is a democratic voting with certain guidelines on what you are allowed to vote on? "He said he would murder people if we voted him in office!" Person proceeds to murder people. "We can't remove him from office, the people voted him in so he could murder people!" This is not a situation where we go, "oh their rampant election fraud conspiracy theories just incited a proto-fascist insurrection at the Capitol of the United States, we should continue to let them peddle election fraud conspiracy theories while in one of the most powerful positions in the US in order to continue to incite proto-fascist action." Letting these people off the hook for this is dooming America to a real actual fascist future. The problem is that this is dangerously close to how democracies fall. Removing a large part of elected officials of one party in a two party system, because they thought the majority party had a fraudulent election is not very advantageous if you want to reinforce your population's belief in democracy. Rather it is a recipe for civil war in the future. So, you would let them peddle their conspiracy theories ad infinitum ? That would never be a recipe for civil war... Well there have been more democracies that have fallen to party members of the opposition being removed from parliament by the ruling party after an election or attack on the nation, than there have been by conspiracy theories ad infinitum. So yes I would take my chances.
There's a difference between removing people because you say they're part of conspiracy, and removing people because THEY say they're part of a conspiracy. Which is what they're saying.
Too bad CONGRESS IS OUT OF SESSION 'TIL THE INAUGURATION. Seriously, they need to get their asses back to work, there is no excuse for inaction at this time.
To be fair, that's because Trump is president right now. You really think he's gonna sign anything on his desk for the next two weeks?
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On January 08 2021 00:40 Erasme wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2021 00:35 Neneu wrote:On January 08 2021 00:33 Erasme wrote:On January 08 2021 00:31 Neneu wrote:On January 08 2021 00:28 Erasme wrote:On January 08 2021 00:27 Neneu wrote:On January 08 2021 00:16 Zambrah wrote:On January 08 2021 00:12 Neneu wrote:On January 08 2021 00:10 Zambrah wrote:On January 08 2021 00:08 Neneu wrote:
I hate to be that guy, but you do realize the irony of removing senators who voted what many of their constituents believe, that the election was a fraud, in the name of democracy?
Take a breather. Democracy will prevail as long as you don't throw it under a bus while trying to preserve it. Voting for treasonous people does not give them license to be treasonous. This is SO FAR from the moment to be taking a breather. So... it is a democratic voting with certain guidelines on what you are allowed to vote on? "He said he would murder people if we voted him in office!" Person proceeds to murder people. "We can't remove him from office, the people voted him in so he could murder people!" This is not a situation where we go, "oh their rampant election fraud conspiracy theories just incited a proto-fascist insurrection at the Capitol of the United States, we should continue to let them peddle election fraud conspiracy theories while in one of the most powerful positions in the US in order to continue to incite proto-fascist action." Letting these people off the hook for this is dooming America to a real actual fascist future. The problem is that this is dangerously close to how democracies fall. Removing a large part of elected officials of one party in a two party system, because they thought the majority party had a fraudulent election is not very advantageous if you want to reinforce your population's belief in democracy. Rather it is a recipe for civil war in the future. So, you would let them peddle their conspiracy theories ad infinitum ? That would never be a recipe for civil war... Well there have been more democracies that have fallen to party members of the opposition being removed from parliament by the ruling party after an election or attack on the nation, than there have been by conspiracy theories ad infinitum. So yes I would take my chances. Just to be clear, you're only opposed against removing them from their office ? Or are you opposing any kind of punishment ? I assume you want Trump to walk free too ? I am against removing elected senators for what they have voted, due to what their constituents wants. That does not scream democracy to me nor a bright future for your country. But there's a very clear precedent. 4 senators were expelled for supporting the confederate rebellion. Those guys supported the trump rebellion. Also their constituents only want this because they are being fed 24/7 trump news by those very same senators. You're willing to let democracy fall because you would be too scared for the consequences. But doing nothing now just makes the issue worse down the line.
I would say there's a pretty major difference between the confederate rebellion and a mob attacking the capitol hill, due to conspiracy theories about a fraudulent election.
What makes you think those constituents will stop being fed 24/7 trump news by those very same senators (in this scenario, ex-senators)? Are you going to censor media or internet? If anything, you have made them martyrs and shown them that they need to some real changes to the constitution if the "communists" can just evict their elected members for voting for what they want.
Removing senators like this after yesterday's tragic event just shows that your democracy and its believes in it, is weak and no longer fit for survival. A strong democracy would prevail and keep it core values.
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On January 08 2021 00:50 Neneu wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2021 00:40 Erasme wrote:On January 08 2021 00:35 Neneu wrote:On January 08 2021 00:33 Erasme wrote:On January 08 2021 00:31 Neneu wrote:On January 08 2021 00:28 Erasme wrote:On January 08 2021 00:27 Neneu wrote:On January 08 2021 00:16 Zambrah wrote:On January 08 2021 00:12 Neneu wrote:On January 08 2021 00:10 Zambrah wrote:
[quote]
Voting for treasonous people does not give them license to be treasonous.
This is SO FAR from the moment to be taking a breather. So... it is a democratic voting with certain guidelines on what you are allowed to vote on? "He said he would murder people if we voted him in office!" Person proceeds to murder people. "We can't remove him from office, the people voted him in so he could murder people!" This is not a situation where we go, "oh their rampant election fraud conspiracy theories just incited a proto-fascist insurrection at the Capitol of the United States, we should continue to let them peddle election fraud conspiracy theories while in one of the most powerful positions in the US in order to continue to incite proto-fascist action." Letting these people off the hook for this is dooming America to a real actual fascist future. The problem is that this is dangerously close to how democracies fall. Removing a large part of elected officials of one party in a two party system, because they thought the majority party had a fraudulent election is not very advantageous if you want to reinforce your population's belief in democracy. Rather it is a recipe for civil war in the future. So, you would let them peddle their conspiracy theories ad infinitum ? That would never be a recipe for civil war... Well there have been more democracies that have fallen to party members of the opposition being removed from parliament by the ruling party after an election or attack on the nation, than there have been by conspiracy theories ad infinitum. So yes I would take my chances. Just to be clear, you're only opposed against removing them from their office ? Or are you opposing any kind of punishment ? I assume you want Trump to walk free too ? I am against removing elected senators for what they have voted, due to what their constituents wants. That does not scream democracy to me nor a bright future for your country. But there's a very clear precedent. 4 senators were expelled for supporting the confederate rebellion. Those guys supported the trump rebellion. Also their constituents only want this because they are being fed 24/7 trump news by those very same senators. You're willing to let democracy fall because you would be too scared for the consequences. But doing nothing now just makes the issue worse down the line. I would say there's a pretty major difference between the confederate rebellion and a mob attacking the capitol hill, due to conspiracy theories about a fraudulent election. What makes you think those constituents will stop being fed 24/7 trump news by those very same senators (in this scenario, ex-senators)? Are you going to censor media or internet? If anything, you have made them martyrs and shown them that they need to some real changes to the constitution if the "communists" can just evict their elected members for voting for what they want. Removing senators like this after yesterday's tragic event just shows that your democracy and its believes in it, is weak and no longer fit for survival. A strong democracy would prevail and keep it core values.
It's hard to peddle conspiracy theories after you've been judged and sentenced to prison.
I would be fine with a lawsuit anytime they lie, but i'm currently waiting on the dominion lawsuit.
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On January 08 2021 00:51 Erasme wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2021 00:50 Neneu wrote:On January 08 2021 00:40 Erasme wrote:On January 08 2021 00:35 Neneu wrote:On January 08 2021 00:33 Erasme wrote:On January 08 2021 00:31 Neneu wrote:On January 08 2021 00:28 Erasme wrote:On January 08 2021 00:27 Neneu wrote:On January 08 2021 00:16 Zambrah wrote:On January 08 2021 00:12 Neneu wrote:
[quote]
So... it is a democratic voting with certain guidelines on what you are allowed to vote on? "He said he would murder people if we voted him in office!" Person proceeds to murder people. "We can't remove him from office, the people voted him in so he could murder people!" This is not a situation where we go, "oh their rampant election fraud conspiracy theories just incited a proto-fascist insurrection at the Capitol of the United States, we should continue to let them peddle election fraud conspiracy theories while in one of the most powerful positions in the US in order to continue to incite proto-fascist action." Letting these people off the hook for this is dooming America to a real actual fascist future. The problem is that this is dangerously close to how democracies fall. Removing a large part of elected officials of one party in a two party system, because they thought the majority party had a fraudulent election is not very advantageous if you want to reinforce your population's belief in democracy. Rather it is a recipe for civil war in the future. So, you would let them peddle their conspiracy theories ad infinitum ? That would never be a recipe for civil war... Well there have been more democracies that have fallen to party members of the opposition being removed from parliament by the ruling party after an election or attack on the nation, than there have been by conspiracy theories ad infinitum. So yes I would take my chances. Just to be clear, you're only opposed against removing them from their office ? Or are you opposing any kind of punishment ? I assume you want Trump to walk free too ? I am against removing elected senators for what they have voted, due to what their constituents wants. That does not scream democracy to me nor a bright future for your country. But there's a very clear precedent. 4 senators were expelled for supporting the confederate rebellion. Those guys supported the trump rebellion. Also their constituents only want this because they are being fed 24/7 trump news by those very same senators. You're willing to let democracy fall because you would be too scared for the consequences. But doing nothing now just makes the issue worse down the line. I would say there's a pretty major difference between the confederate rebellion and a mob attacking the capitol hill, due to conspiracy theories about a fraudulent election. What makes you think those constituents will stop being fed 24/7 trump news by those very same senators (in this scenario, ex-senators)? Are you going to censor media or internet? If anything, you have made them martyrs and shown them that they need to some real changes to the constitution if the "communists" can just evict their elected members for voting for what they want. Removing senators like this after yesterday's tragic event just shows that your democracy and its believes in it, is weak and no longer fit for survival. A strong democracy would prevail and keep it core values. It's hard to peddle conspiracy theories after you've been judged and sentenced to prison.
Is it? How many do you expect to sentence and for how long?
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On January 08 2021 00:20 Neneu wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2021 00:15 IyMoon wrote:On January 08 2021 00:12 Neneu wrote:On January 08 2021 00:10 Zambrah wrote:On January 08 2021 00:08 Neneu wrote:
I hate to be that guy, but you do realize the irony of removing senators who voted what many of their constituents believe, that the election was a fraud, in the name of democracy?
Take a breather. Democracy will prevail as long as you don't throw it under a bus while trying to preserve it. Voting for treasonous people does not give them license to be treasonous. This is SO FAR from the moment to be taking a breather. So... it is a democratic voting with certain guidelines on what you are allowed to vote on? Representatives are supposed to use their better judgement, and in some cases, go against the will of the constituents incase that will is harmful. Otherwise, theres no point in having representatives. You could just post everything to a national/state/local vote What if their representatives are stupid or strong ideologues who actually believes it as well? Then they have exerted their better judgement. The point is, removing senators after something like what happened yesterday because of what they have voted, is something only banana republics are doing. I never thought of US as one, however some think of it as one after yesterday's attack on democracy. If you remove the senators you would be proving them right however.
I disagree. Those people tried to give political legitimacy to an attempted coup. They should go, although ideally it should be the GOP holding them accountable.
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On January 08 2021 00:52 Neneu wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2021 00:51 Erasme wrote:On January 08 2021 00:50 Neneu wrote:On January 08 2021 00:40 Erasme wrote:On January 08 2021 00:35 Neneu wrote:On January 08 2021 00:33 Erasme wrote:On January 08 2021 00:31 Neneu wrote:On January 08 2021 00:28 Erasme wrote:On January 08 2021 00:27 Neneu wrote:On January 08 2021 00:16 Zambrah wrote:
[quote]
"He said he would murder people if we voted him in office!"
Person proceeds to murder people.
"We can't remove him from office, the people voted him in so he could murder people!"
This is not a situation where we go, "oh their rampant election fraud conspiracy theories just incited a proto-fascist insurrection at the Capitol of the United States, we should continue to let them peddle election fraud conspiracy theories while in one of the most powerful positions in the US in order to continue to incite proto-fascist action."
Letting these people off the hook for this is dooming America to a real actual fascist future. The problem is that this is dangerously close to how democracies fall. Removing a large part of elected officials of one party in a two party system, because they thought the majority party had a fraudulent election is not very advantageous if you want to reinforce your population's belief in democracy. Rather it is a recipe for civil war in the future. So, you would let them peddle their conspiracy theories ad infinitum ? That would never be a recipe for civil war... Well there have been more democracies that have fallen to party members of the opposition being removed from parliament by the ruling party after an election or attack on the nation, than there have been by conspiracy theories ad infinitum. So yes I would take my chances. Just to be clear, you're only opposed against removing them from their office ? Or are you opposing any kind of punishment ? I assume you want Trump to walk free too ? I am against removing elected senators for what they have voted, due to what their constituents wants. That does not scream democracy to me nor a bright future for your country. But there's a very clear precedent. 4 senators were expelled for supporting the confederate rebellion. Those guys supported the trump rebellion. Also their constituents only want this because they are being fed 24/7 trump news by those very same senators. You're willing to let democracy fall because you would be too scared for the consequences. But doing nothing now just makes the issue worse down the line. I would say there's a pretty major difference between the confederate rebellion and a mob attacking the capitol hill, due to conspiracy theories about a fraudulent election. What makes you think those constituents will stop being fed 24/7 trump news by those very same senators (in this scenario, ex-senators)? Are you going to censor media or internet? If anything, you have made them martyrs and shown them that they need to some real changes to the constitution if the "communists" can just evict their elected members for voting for what they want. Removing senators like this after yesterday's tragic event just shows that your democracy and its believes in it, is weak and no longer fit for survival. A strong democracy would prevail and keep it core values. It's hard to peddle conspiracy theories after you've been judged and sentenced to prison. Is it? How many do you expect to sentence and for how long?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treason_laws_in_the_United_States
Up to 20years.
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On January 08 2021 00:52 Erasme wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2021 00:52 Neneu wrote:On January 08 2021 00:51 Erasme wrote:On January 08 2021 00:50 Neneu wrote:On January 08 2021 00:40 Erasme wrote:On January 08 2021 00:35 Neneu wrote:On January 08 2021 00:33 Erasme wrote:On January 08 2021 00:31 Neneu wrote:On January 08 2021 00:28 Erasme wrote:On January 08 2021 00:27 Neneu wrote:
[quote]
The problem is that this is dangerously close to how democracies fall. Removing a large part of elected officials of one party in a two party system, because they thought the majority party had a fraudulent election is not very advantageous if you want to reinforce your population's belief in democracy. Rather it is a recipe for civil war in the future. So, you would let them peddle their conspiracy theories ad infinitum ? That would never be a recipe for civil war... Well there have been more democracies that have fallen to party members of the opposition being removed from parliament by the ruling party after an election or attack on the nation, than there have been by conspiracy theories ad infinitum. So yes I would take my chances. Just to be clear, you're only opposed against removing them from their office ? Or are you opposing any kind of punishment ? I assume you want Trump to walk free too ? I am against removing elected senators for what they have voted, due to what their constituents wants. That does not scream democracy to me nor a bright future for your country. But there's a very clear precedent. 4 senators were expelled for supporting the confederate rebellion. Those guys supported the trump rebellion. Also their constituents only want this because they are being fed 24/7 trump news by those very same senators. You're willing to let democracy fall because you would be too scared for the consequences. But doing nothing now just makes the issue worse down the line. I would say there's a pretty major difference between the confederate rebellion and a mob attacking the capitol hill, due to conspiracy theories about a fraudulent election. What makes you think those constituents will stop being fed 24/7 trump news by those very same senators (in this scenario, ex-senators)? Are you going to censor media or internet? If anything, you have made them martyrs and shown them that they need to some real changes to the constitution if the "communists" can just evict their elected members for voting for what they want. Removing senators like this after yesterday's tragic event just shows that your democracy and its believes in it, is weak and no longer fit for survival. A strong democracy would prevail and keep it core values. It's hard to peddle conspiracy theories after you've been judged and sentenced to prison. Is it? How many do you expect to sentence and for how long? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treason_laws_in_the_United_StatesUp to 20years.
But how many? Considering we are talking about ending trump news 24/7 and the conspiracy theories.
On January 08 2021 00:52 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2021 00:20 Neneu wrote:On January 08 2021 00:15 IyMoon wrote:On January 08 2021 00:12 Neneu wrote:On January 08 2021 00:10 Zambrah wrote:On January 08 2021 00:08 Neneu wrote:
I hate to be that guy, but you do realize the irony of removing senators who voted what many of their constituents believe, that the election was a fraud, in the name of democracy?
Take a breather. Democracy will prevail as long as you don't throw it under a bus while trying to preserve it. Voting for treasonous people does not give them license to be treasonous. This is SO FAR from the moment to be taking a breather. So... it is a democratic voting with certain guidelines on what you are allowed to vote on? Representatives are supposed to use their better judgement, and in some cases, go against the will of the constituents incase that will is harmful. Otherwise, theres no point in having representatives. You could just post everything to a national/state/local vote What if their representatives are stupid or strong ideologues who actually believes it as well? Then they have exerted their better judgement. The point is, removing senators after something like what happened yesterday because of what they have voted, is something only banana republics are doing. I never thought of US as one, however some think of it as one after yesterday's attack on democracy. If you remove the senators you would be proving them right however. I disagree. Those people tried to give political legitimacy to an attempted coup. They should go, although ideally it should be the GOP holding them accountable.
I 100% agree, they should either resign or GOP should force them to be accountable. However, the ruling party are not the ones who should evict the members of the opposition.
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You can't stop the constituents, but you can stop rewarding people actively pandering to conspiracy theories to undermine an election.
Letting them keep their positions indicates to them and everyone else that you can encourage conspiracy theories and encourage people into insurgency be allowed to keep doing it. Its rewarding them, its telling them, "Keep doing it! Keep feeding your constituents a steady diet of lies and bullshit! You got elected on it, you'll keep getting elected on it, and NOONE WILL STOP YOU!"
Focusing on the constituency is pointless, we need to stop making it so damn profitable to be a feckless conspiracy theory peddling scumbag politician.
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On January 08 2021 00:47 Silvanel wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2021 00:34 Gorsameth wrote:On January 08 2021 00:26 Silvanel wrote:
What i would do personally is not expell everyone who voted against the election result, just people who fueled the flame (on twitter, facebook and rallies) and actively encouraged this type of behavior. Do a proper invaestigation, get rid of those who contributed the most to violence. You think voting in favour of overturning the election isn't actively encouraging the people who assaulted the capitol? It is. However some are more guilty of this than others and I also think that expelling some people (<10) is much more feasible than expelling 120+ members. You need to not only about what is right but also what can be achieved and also what happens afterwards. Certainly expelling 120 people feels insane, and I was shocked to hear that so many still support this after the attack.
But that just reinforces my belief that America is basically doomed. This problem goes way to deep and your not going to solve it by expelling 10 people out of 120 who encourage it.
America is rotten to the core, and I don't know how you go about curing it.
But doing nothing is not a viable option.
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On January 08 2021 00:54 Neneu wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2021 00:52 Erasme wrote:On January 08 2021 00:52 Neneu wrote:On January 08 2021 00:51 Erasme wrote:On January 08 2021 00:50 Neneu wrote:On January 08 2021 00:40 Erasme wrote:On January 08 2021 00:35 Neneu wrote:On January 08 2021 00:33 Erasme wrote:On January 08 2021 00:31 Neneu wrote:On January 08 2021 00:28 Erasme wrote:
[quote]
So, you would let them peddle their conspiracy theories ad infinitum ? That would never be a recipe for civil war... Well there have been more democracies that have fallen to party members of the opposition being removed from parliament by the ruling party after an election or attack on the nation, than there have been by conspiracy theories ad infinitum. So yes I would take my chances. Just to be clear, you're only opposed against removing them from their office ? Or are you opposing any kind of punishment ? I assume you want Trump to walk free too ? I am against removing elected senators for what they have voted, due to what their constituents wants. That does not scream democracy to me nor a bright future for your country. But there's a very clear precedent. 4 senators were expelled for supporting the confederate rebellion. Those guys supported the trump rebellion. Also their constituents only want this because they are being fed 24/7 trump news by those very same senators. You're willing to let democracy fall because you would be too scared for the consequences. But doing nothing now just makes the issue worse down the line. I would say there's a pretty major difference between the confederate rebellion and a mob attacking the capitol hill, due to conspiracy theories about a fraudulent election. What makes you think those constituents will stop being fed 24/7 trump news by those very same senators (in this scenario, ex-senators)? Are you going to censor media or internet? If anything, you have made them martyrs and shown them that they need to some real changes to the constitution if the "communists" can just evict their elected members for voting for what they want. Removing senators like this after yesterday's tragic event just shows that your democracy and its believes in it, is weak and no longer fit for survival. A strong democracy would prevail and keep it core values. It's hard to peddle conspiracy theories after you've been judged and sentenced to prison. Is it? How many do you expect to sentence and for how long? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treason_laws_in_the_United_StatesUp to 20years. But how many? Considering we are talking about ending trump news 24/7 and the conspiracy theories. Show nested quote +On January 08 2021 00:52 maybenexttime wrote:On January 08 2021 00:20 Neneu wrote:On January 08 2021 00:15 IyMoon wrote:On January 08 2021 00:12 Neneu wrote:On January 08 2021 00:10 Zambrah wrote:On January 08 2021 00:08 Neneu wrote:
I hate to be that guy, but you do realize the irony of removing senators who voted what many of their constituents believe, that the election was a fraud, in the name of democracy?
Take a breather. Democracy will prevail as long as you don't throw it under a bus while trying to preserve it. Voting for treasonous people does not give them license to be treasonous. This is SO FAR from the moment to be taking a breather. So... it is a democratic voting with certain guidelines on what you are allowed to vote on? Representatives are supposed to use their better judgement, and in some cases, go against the will of the constituents incase that will is harmful. Otherwise, theres no point in having representatives. You could just post everything to a national/state/local vote What if their representatives are stupid or strong ideologues who actually believes it as well? Then they have exerted their better judgement. The point is, removing senators after something like what happened yesterday because of what they have voted, is something only banana republics are doing. I never thought of US as one, however some think of it as one after yesterday's attack on democracy. If you remove the senators you would be proving them right however. I disagree. Those people tried to give political legitimacy to an attempted coup. They should go, although ideally it should be the GOP holding them accountable. I 100% agree, they should either resign or GOP should force them to be accountable. However, the ruling party are not the ones who should evict the members of the opposition.
Ideally all of them, but I could go with the most vocal of them. Lawsuits for OANN/Newsmax and the rest of those fringe alternative reality medias.
Btw if you're issue is with the ruling party doing it, i'm more for doing it in a court of law.
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On January 08 2021 00:50 Neneu wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2021 00:40 Erasme wrote:On January 08 2021 00:35 Neneu wrote:On January 08 2021 00:33 Erasme wrote:On January 08 2021 00:31 Neneu wrote:On January 08 2021 00:28 Erasme wrote:On January 08 2021 00:27 Neneu wrote:On January 08 2021 00:16 Zambrah wrote:On January 08 2021 00:12 Neneu wrote:On January 08 2021 00:10 Zambrah wrote:
[quote]
Voting for treasonous people does not give them license to be treasonous.
This is SO FAR from the moment to be taking a breather. So... it is a democratic voting with certain guidelines on what you are allowed to vote on? "He said he would murder people if we voted him in office!" Person proceeds to murder people. "We can't remove him from office, the people voted him in so he could murder people!" This is not a situation where we go, "oh their rampant election fraud conspiracy theories just incited a proto-fascist insurrection at the Capitol of the United States, we should continue to let them peddle election fraud conspiracy theories while in one of the most powerful positions in the US in order to continue to incite proto-fascist action." Letting these people off the hook for this is dooming America to a real actual fascist future. The problem is that this is dangerously close to how democracies fall. Removing a large part of elected officials of one party in a two party system, because they thought the majority party had a fraudulent election is not very advantageous if you want to reinforce your population's belief in democracy. Rather it is a recipe for civil war in the future. So, you would let them peddle their conspiracy theories ad infinitum ? That would never be a recipe for civil war... Well there have been more democracies that have fallen to party members of the opposition being removed from parliament by the ruling party after an election or attack on the nation, than there have been by conspiracy theories ad infinitum. So yes I would take my chances. Just to be clear, you're only opposed against removing them from their office ? Or are you opposing any kind of punishment ? I assume you want Trump to walk free too ? I am against removing elected senators for what they have voted, due to what their constituents wants. That does not scream democracy to me nor a bright future for your country. But there's a very clear precedent. 4 senators were expelled for supporting the confederate rebellion. Those guys supported the trump rebellion. Also their constituents only want this because they are being fed 24/7 trump news by those very same senators. You're willing to let democracy fall because you would be too scared for the consequences. But doing nothing now just makes the issue worse down the line. I would say there's a pretty major difference between the confederate rebellion and a mob attacking the capitol hill, due to conspiracy theories about a fraudulent election. What makes you think those constituents will stop being fed 24/7 trump news by those very same senators (in this scenario, ex-senators)? Are you going to censor media or internet? If anything, you have made them martyrs and shown them that they need to some real changes to the constitution if the "communists" can just evict their elected members for voting for what they want. Removing senators like this after yesterday's tragic event just shows that your democracy and its believes in it, is weak and no longer fit for survival. A strong democracy would prevail and keep it core values. Your version of a 'strong' democracy would stand by and no nothing as fascists try to overthrow it time and time again until one day they succeed and then there won't be a vote to put back democracy.
America is not a strong democracy, if it was it wouldn't be where it is now.
It is already failing.
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On January 08 2021 00:50 Neneu wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2021 00:40 Erasme wrote:On January 08 2021 00:35 Neneu wrote:On January 08 2021 00:33 Erasme wrote:On January 08 2021 00:31 Neneu wrote:On January 08 2021 00:28 Erasme wrote:On January 08 2021 00:27 Neneu wrote:On January 08 2021 00:16 Zambrah wrote:On January 08 2021 00:12 Neneu wrote:On January 08 2021 00:10 Zambrah wrote:
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Voting for treasonous people does not give them license to be treasonous.
This is SO FAR from the moment to be taking a breather. So... it is a democratic voting with certain guidelines on what you are allowed to vote on? "He said he would murder people if we voted him in office!" Person proceeds to murder people. "We can't remove him from office, the people voted him in so he could murder people!" This is not a situation where we go, "oh their rampant election fraud conspiracy theories just incited a proto-fascist insurrection at the Capitol of the United States, we should continue to let them peddle election fraud conspiracy theories while in one of the most powerful positions in the US in order to continue to incite proto-fascist action." Letting these people off the hook for this is dooming America to a real actual fascist future. The problem is that this is dangerously close to how democracies fall. Removing a large part of elected officials of one party in a two party system, because they thought the majority party had a fraudulent election is not very advantageous if you want to reinforce your population's belief in democracy. Rather it is a recipe for civil war in the future. So, you would let them peddle their conspiracy theories ad infinitum ? That would never be a recipe for civil war... Well there have been more democracies that have fallen to party members of the opposition being removed from parliament by the ruling party after an election or attack on the nation, than there have been by conspiracy theories ad infinitum. So yes I would take my chances. Just to be clear, you're only opposed against removing them from their office ? Or are you opposing any kind of punishment ? I assume you want Trump to walk free too ? I am against removing elected senators for what they have voted, due to what their constituents wants. That does not scream democracy to me nor a bright future for your country. But there's a very clear precedent. 4 senators were expelled for supporting the confederate rebellion. Those guys supported the trump rebellion. Also their constituents only want this because they are being fed 24/7 trump news by those very same senators. You're willing to let democracy fall because you would be too scared for the consequences. But doing nothing now just makes the issue worse down the line. I would say there's a pretty major difference between the confederate rebellion and a mob attacking the capitol hill, due to conspiracy theories about a fraudulent election.What makes you think those constituents will stop being fed 24/7 trump news by those very same senators (in this scenario, ex-senators)? Are you going to censor media or internet? If anything, you have made them martyrs and shown them that they need to some real changes to the constitution if the "communists" can just evict their elected members for voting for what they want. Removing senators like this after yesterday's tragic event just shows that your democracy and its believes in it, is weak and no longer fit for survival. A strong democracy would prevail and keep it core values.
Not really. They're both attempts to overthrow the government. One just had more official backing from their states. This isn't about the people's will, per se. This is about them having disqualified themselves from being viable representatives for a democracy. They can be replaced by members of the same party, etc. That's fine.
To be clear, not ALL of them should be expelled. But the ones who say they are doing it entirely to keep Trump in office should be (which is probably none of the senators and only a few members of the house).
The middle-ground is censuring, but that's always been a waste of everyone's time.
The reality is that it could take almost as long to expel house members as it does for a new election term to be up, so it IS a little silly (as their terms are so short and expulsion could take months).
It's also something of a self-policing problem : these people are going to be unelectable in a year, as long as Trump's crimes are fully investigated.
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We are talking about the senators who voted against certifying the results of the democratic election right? They are not part of a conspiracy, they are actively and on public record of refuting the results of a democratically elected president-elect in favour of Trump.
Imagine Trump won marginally instead of a decisive victory for Biden. We just seen those senatorial seats being used to attempt to overthrow a democratic election. Those same senatorial seats can admend the constitution for a third term. And a fourth term. Of course by then democracy would had degraded into an authoritarian mode of government despite nominally looking like a democracy on the surface. We've seen it happen with Putin and Russia, when an authoritarian fascist government is put in place legally by its own terms.
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On January 08 2021 00:58 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
We are talking about the senators who voted against certifying the results of the democratic election right? They are not part of a conspiracy, they are actively and on public record of refuting the results of a democratically elected president-elect in favour of Trump.
Imagine Trump won marginally instead of a decisive victory for Biden. We just seen those senatorial seats being used to attempt to overthrow a democratic election. Those same senatorial seats can admend the constitution for a third term. And a fourth term. Of course by then democracy would had degraded into an authoritarian mode of government despite nominally looking like a democracy on the surface. We've seen it happen with Putin and Russia, when an authoritarian fascist government is put in place legally by its own terms.
No, technically not. That's done by state congresses, not the US congress. And takes a super majority.
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On January 08 2021 00:56 Erasme wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2021 00:54 Neneu wrote:On January 08 2021 00:52 Erasme wrote:On January 08 2021 00:52 Neneu wrote:On January 08 2021 00:51 Erasme wrote:On January 08 2021 00:50 Neneu wrote:On January 08 2021 00:40 Erasme wrote:On January 08 2021 00:35 Neneu wrote:On January 08 2021 00:33 Erasme wrote:On January 08 2021 00:31 Neneu wrote:
[quote]
Well there have been more democracies that have fallen to party members of the opposition being removed from parliament by the ruling party after an election or attack on the nation, than there have been by conspiracy theories ad infinitum. So yes I would take my chances.
Just to be clear, you're only opposed against removing them from their office ? Or are you opposing any kind of punishment ? I assume you want Trump to walk free too ? I am against removing elected senators for what they have voted, due to what their constituents wants. That does not scream democracy to me nor a bright future for your country. But there's a very clear precedent. 4 senators were expelled for supporting the confederate rebellion. Those guys supported the trump rebellion. Also their constituents only want this because they are being fed 24/7 trump news by those very same senators. You're willing to let democracy fall because you would be too scared for the consequences. But doing nothing now just makes the issue worse down the line. I would say there's a pretty major difference between the confederate rebellion and a mob attacking the capitol hill, due to conspiracy theories about a fraudulent election. What makes you think those constituents will stop being fed 24/7 trump news by those very same senators (in this scenario, ex-senators)? Are you going to censor media or internet? If anything, you have made them martyrs and shown them that they need to some real changes to the constitution if the "communists" can just evict their elected members for voting for what they want. Removing senators like this after yesterday's tragic event just shows that your democracy and its believes in it, is weak and no longer fit for survival. A strong democracy would prevail and keep it core values. It's hard to peddle conspiracy theories after you've been judged and sentenced to prison. Is it? How many do you expect to sentence and for how long? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treason_laws_in_the_United_StatesUp to 20years. But how many? Considering we are talking about ending trump news 24/7 and the conspiracy theories. On January 08 2021 00:52 maybenexttime wrote:On January 08 2021 00:20 Neneu wrote:On January 08 2021 00:15 IyMoon wrote:On January 08 2021 00:12 Neneu wrote:On January 08 2021 00:10 Zambrah wrote:On January 08 2021 00:08 Neneu wrote:
I hate to be that guy, but you do realize the irony of removing senators who voted what many of their constituents believe, that the election was a fraud, in the name of democracy?
Take a breather. Democracy will prevail as long as you don't throw it under a bus while trying to preserve it. Voting for treasonous people does not give them license to be treasonous. This is SO FAR from the moment to be taking a breather. So... it is a democratic voting with certain guidelines on what you are allowed to vote on? Representatives are supposed to use their better judgement, and in some cases, go against the will of the constituents incase that will is harmful. Otherwise, theres no point in having representatives. You could just post everything to a national/state/local vote What if their representatives are stupid or strong ideologues who actually believes it as well? Then they have exerted their better judgement. The point is, removing senators after something like what happened yesterday because of what they have voted, is something only banana republics are doing. I never thought of US as one, however some think of it as one after yesterday's attack on democracy. If you remove the senators you would be proving them right however. I disagree. Those people tried to give political legitimacy to an attempted coup. They should go, although ideally it should be the GOP holding them accountable. I 100% agree, they should either resign or GOP should force them to be accountable. However, the ruling party are not the ones who should evict the members of the opposition. Ideally all of them, but I could go with the most vocal of them. Lawsuits for OANN/Newsmax and the rest of those fringe alternative reality medias.
Bare minimum the figureheads of the movement.
The Josh Hawleys, the Matt Gaetz, the Ted Cruz, all of the very vocal ones who could be seen to be figureheads of the movement under Trump.
Get them the fuck out of Congress, from there consider where you want to draw the line but the biggest offenders have got to go ASAP.
I should mention since Congress won't be in session til the inauguration that they're basically abdicating an important responbility related to the urgency of doing this.
As soon as Biden is sworn in and Democrats control all houses of Congress and the Presidency expelling these people is going to be seen as a partisan purge instead of as purging seditious fuckwits. Congress needs to do this NOW. Waiting two weeks is basically saying, "eh, this can wait" and diminishes the ability to take this shit seriously going forward.
We absolutely HAVE to get them to do this as soon as humanly possible.
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Wikipedia (yes I know wikipedia not relaible) says that it can be done with just a state majority, just that it's not the norm. But we all know about Republican senators and their strict adherance to norms. Like I don't know, adhering to house majority or not essentially voting to overthrow democracy.
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On January 08 2021 01:01 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Wikipedia (yes I know wikipedia not relaible) says that it can be done with just a state majority, just that it's not the norm. But we all know about Republican senators and their strict adherance to norms. Like I don't know, adhering to house majority or not essentially voting to overthrow democracy.
No, it takes a 2/3 vote in either both houses of congress or the states to even propose an amendment to the constitution or to overturn one (which is where the 2 term limit comes from).
It THEN takes a majority approval from congresses of at least 3/4 of the states.
Amending the constitution is super hard.
I think you're thinking of just passing a law.
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EPT
