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On January 07 2021 23:14 farvacola wrote:That's not a distinction that makes any sense to me. Economics and social values are inextricably tied, the fact that we deign to separate the two is just more evidence of neoliberalism working its influence on how politics are discussed. And as mentioned by posters like Broetchenholer, what constitutes the political character of an act or idea must incorporate the nature of the support for those acts or ideas. This lies at the heart of the apparent contradiction in concepts like national socialism and why swastika-tattooed skinheads would support someone like Trump.
I'm just explaining in what context he used the label "leftist". Words can have more than one meaning. To say that he made a counterfactual claim regarding Trump's position on social issues would be a fallacy of equivocation. He effectively said that economically Trump is far from a libertarian.
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Democracy is a mode of government. You can also argue it is a mindset that can form a mode of government. But in this case as a mode of government it will cease to exist when it is unable to defend itself against authoritartian forces. What we just saw was political violence and senators adhering and encouraging to the views that encourage such violence against the results of a democratic election.
If senatorial majority was to take actions to destroy democracy, should that democratic govenment allow itself to be destroyed? You think yes, I would say no.
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On January 08 2021 00:15 IyMoon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2021 00:12 Neneu wrote:On January 08 2021 00:10 Zambrah wrote:On January 08 2021 00:08 Neneu wrote:
I hate to be that guy, but you do realize the irony of removing senators who voted what many of their constituents believe, that the election was a fraud, in the name of democracy?
Take a breather. Democracy will prevail as long as you don't throw it under a bus while trying to preserve it. Voting for treasonous people does not give them license to be treasonous. This is SO FAR from the moment to be taking a breather. So... it is a democratic voting with certain guidelines on what you are allowed to vote on? Representatives are supposed to use their better judgement, and in some cases, go against the will of the constituents incase that will is harmful. Otherwise, theres no point in having representatives. You could just post everything to a national/state/local vote
What if their representatives are stupid or strong ideologues who actually believes it as well? Then they have exerted their better judgement.
The point is, removing senators after something like what happened yesterday because of what they have voted, is something only banana republics are doing. I never thought of US as one, however some think of it as one after yesterday's attack on democracy. If you remove the senators you would be proving them right however.
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On January 07 2021 20:52 Gorsameth wrote:
wtf, i thought it was a dozen. 121 out of 204 in the House. And that was after the capitol was attacked?
You don't solve that by expelling a few people. Way to many for something like that, this goes way to deep.
Biden might have won the election, but America is doomed.
The dozen or so were senators. The house GOP is filled with lunatic morons, and has been since at least 2010. It is a consequence of gerrymandering, imo. Theyre from districts where a republican can only lose to a more conservative republican so it becomes a death spiral into insanity.
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On January 08 2021 00:20 Neneu wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2021 00:15 IyMoon wrote:On January 08 2021 00:12 Neneu wrote:On January 08 2021 00:10 Zambrah wrote:On January 08 2021 00:08 Neneu wrote:
I hate to be that guy, but you do realize the irony of removing senators who voted what many of their constituents believe, that the election was a fraud, in the name of democracy?
Take a breather. Democracy will prevail as long as you don't throw it under a bus while trying to preserve it. Voting for treasonous people does not give them license to be treasonous. This is SO FAR from the moment to be taking a breather. So... it is a democratic voting with certain guidelines on what you are allowed to vote on? Representatives are supposed to use their better judgement, and in some cases, go against the will of the constituents incase that will is harmful. Otherwise, theres no point in having representatives. You could just post everything to a national/state/local vote What if their representatives are stupid or strong ideologues who actually believes it as well? Then they have exerted their better judgement. The point is, removing senators after something like what happened yesterday because of what they have voted, is something only banana republics are doing. I never thought of US as one, however some think of it as one after yesterday's attack on democracy. If you remove the senators you would be proving them right however.
?
If you do not defend democracy against fascists trying to overturn an election, you shouldn't be surprised when the democracy is overthrown. This isn't the time for "Unity".
Those senators should be removed for taking a dump on their oath.
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On January 08 2021 00:20 Neneu wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2021 00:15 IyMoon wrote:On January 08 2021 00:12 Neneu wrote:On January 08 2021 00:10 Zambrah wrote:On January 08 2021 00:08 Neneu wrote:
I hate to be that guy, but you do realize the irony of removing senators who voted what many of their constituents believe, that the election was a fraud, in the name of democracy?
Take a breather. Democracy will prevail as long as you don't throw it under a bus while trying to preserve it. Voting for treasonous people does not give them license to be treasonous. This is SO FAR from the moment to be taking a breather. So... it is a democratic voting with certain guidelines on what you are allowed to vote on? Representatives are supposed to use their better judgement, and in some cases, go against the will of the constituents incase that will is harmful. Otherwise, theres no point in having representatives. You could just post everything to a national/state/local vote What if their representatives are stupid or strong ideologues who actually believes it as well? Then they have exerted their better judgement. The point is, removing senators after something like what happened yesterday because of what they have voted, is something only banana republics are doing. I never thought of US as one, however some think of it as one after yesterday's attack on democracy. If you remove the senators you would be proving them right however.
Its because of what they voted and their general pushing of the conspiracy theories that lead to an insurgency. The vote just makes it very, very, very clear who was going to keep rolling on that conspiracy theory train to insurgency town.
They have to go. Ted Cruz has to go, Matt Gaetz has to go, Josh Hawley has to go, they have to be removed from office.
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It's not about proving those fascists who act against democratic elections right or wrong. It's about how a democracy should defend itself against those who seek to directly undermine democracy whether by ostensibly democratic means or with violence. Remember a democracy is more than just the will of the majority, it has a whole host of other rights and protections along with it. If those rights and protections cannot be defended against, democracy too would falter.
Is there an easy answer when democratic modes of government are under threat from authoritarians? No there isn't. But as currently is in this situation, the best course of action to make sure democracy isn't being further undermined is to strengthen the ability for a democracy to retain being a democracy, not to further weaken it's ability to retain its own existence.
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What i would do personally is not expell everyone who voted against the election result, just people who fueled the flame (on twitter, facebook and rallies) and actively encouraged this type of behavior. Do a proper invaestigation, get rid of those who contributed the most to violence.
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Apparently Trump has joined parler, in response to Facebook and Twitter locking his accounts.
Censure is the absolute minimum, imo, for the congress members. They should be expelled though.
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On January 08 2021 00:16 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2021 00:12 Neneu wrote:On January 08 2021 00:10 Zambrah wrote:On January 08 2021 00:08 Neneu wrote:
I hate to be that guy, but you do realize the irony of removing senators who voted what many of their constituents believe, that the election was a fraud, in the name of democracy?
Take a breather. Democracy will prevail as long as you don't throw it under a bus while trying to preserve it. Voting for treasonous people does not give them license to be treasonous. This is SO FAR from the moment to be taking a breather. So... it is a democratic voting with certain guidelines on what you are allowed to vote on? "He said he would murder people if we voted him in office!" Person proceeds to murder people. "We can't remove him from office, the people voted him in so he could murder people!" This is not a situation where we go, "oh their rampant election fraud conspiracy theories just incited a proto-fascist insurrection at the Capitol of the United States, we should continue to let them peddle election fraud conspiracy theories while in one of the most powerful positions in the US in order to continue to incite proto-fascist action." Letting these people off the hook for this is dooming America to a real actual fascist future.
The problem is that this is dangerously close to how democracies fall. Removing a large part of elected officials of one party in a two party system, because they thought the majority party had a fraudulent election is not very advantageous if you want to reinforce your population's belief in democracy. Rather it is a recipe for civil war in the future.
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On January 07 2021 23:10 Doublemint wrote:the more pictures I see the more I feel ashamed and certain that I owe GH an apology. I still think defund the police is a stupid slogan to get things done, but that contrast was too stark yesterday in how they handled the insurrectionists and the BLM people. unfathomable but undeniably true. they found pipe bombs for fuck's sake. those fucks rummaged through people's offices and broke and looted shit. and most of them walked out like nothing happened. and lol at Berserk. made my day. Show nested quote +I don't think my nation suffered damage yesterday. I honestly don't care about global opinion on the US, especially china's opinion lol. The US, despite its flaws, is still the gold standard in my eyes.
I agree that Police and what else there is of Security agencies is involved handled things very different between BLM and Trump supporters. You can look at the skin difference as the main reason for this. I will argue that one of the main differences between the handling is that the President support one course and is the course of it, and condemn the other.
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On January 08 2021 00:27 Neneu wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2021 00:16 Zambrah wrote:On January 08 2021 00:12 Neneu wrote:On January 08 2021 00:10 Zambrah wrote:On January 08 2021 00:08 Neneu wrote:
I hate to be that guy, but you do realize the irony of removing senators who voted what many of their constituents believe, that the election was a fraud, in the name of democracy?
Take a breather. Democracy will prevail as long as you don't throw it under a bus while trying to preserve it. Voting for treasonous people does not give them license to be treasonous. This is SO FAR from the moment to be taking a breather. So... it is a democratic voting with certain guidelines on what you are allowed to vote on? "He said he would murder people if we voted him in office!" Person proceeds to murder people. "We can't remove him from office, the people voted him in so he could murder people!" This is not a situation where we go, "oh their rampant election fraud conspiracy theories just incited a proto-fascist insurrection at the Capitol of the United States, we should continue to let them peddle election fraud conspiracy theories while in one of the most powerful positions in the US in order to continue to incite proto-fascist action." Letting these people off the hook for this is dooming America to a real actual fascist future. The problem is that this is dangerously close to how democracies fall. Removing a large part of elected officials of one party in a two party system, because they thought the majority party had a fraudulent election is not very advantageous if you want to reinforce your population's belief in democracy. Rather it is a recipe for civil war in the future.
So, you would let them peddle their conspiracy theories ad infinitum ? That would never be a recipe for civil war...
It's funny but I thought that the guy thats been saying he won the election (despite not winning it) for 2months would be the one inciting civil war?
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Better a civil war where democracy wins than a civil war where democracy falls.
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On January 08 2021 00:28 Erasme wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2021 00:27 Neneu wrote:On January 08 2021 00:16 Zambrah wrote:On January 08 2021 00:12 Neneu wrote:On January 08 2021 00:10 Zambrah wrote:On January 08 2021 00:08 Neneu wrote:
I hate to be that guy, but you do realize the irony of removing senators who voted what many of their constituents believe, that the election was a fraud, in the name of democracy?
Take a breather. Democracy will prevail as long as you don't throw it under a bus while trying to preserve it. Voting for treasonous people does not give them license to be treasonous. This is SO FAR from the moment to be taking a breather. So... it is a democratic voting with certain guidelines on what you are allowed to vote on? "He said he would murder people if we voted him in office!" Person proceeds to murder people. "We can't remove him from office, the people voted him in so he could murder people!" This is not a situation where we go, "oh their rampant election fraud conspiracy theories just incited a proto-fascist insurrection at the Capitol of the United States, we should continue to let them peddle election fraud conspiracy theories while in one of the most powerful positions in the US in order to continue to incite proto-fascist action." Letting these people off the hook for this is dooming America to a real actual fascist future. The problem is that this is dangerously close to how democracies fall. Removing a large part of elected officials of one party in a two party system, because they thought the majority party had a fraudulent election is not very advantageous if you want to reinforce your population's belief in democracy. Rather it is a recipe for civil war in the future. So, you would let them peddle their conspiracy theories ad infinitum ? That would never be a recipe for civil war...
Well there have been more democracies that have fallen to party members of the opposition being removed from parliament by the ruling party after an election or attack on the nation, than there have been by conspiracy theories ad infinitum. So yes I would take my chances.
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On January 08 2021 00:31 Neneu wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2021 00:28 Erasme wrote:On January 08 2021 00:27 Neneu wrote:On January 08 2021 00:16 Zambrah wrote:On January 08 2021 00:12 Neneu wrote:On January 08 2021 00:10 Zambrah wrote:On January 08 2021 00:08 Neneu wrote:
I hate to be that guy, but you do realize the irony of removing senators who voted what many of their constituents believe, that the election was a fraud, in the name of democracy?
Take a breather. Democracy will prevail as long as you don't throw it under a bus while trying to preserve it. Voting for treasonous people does not give them license to be treasonous. This is SO FAR from the moment to be taking a breather. So... it is a democratic voting with certain guidelines on what you are allowed to vote on? "He said he would murder people if we voted him in office!" Person proceeds to murder people. "We can't remove him from office, the people voted him in so he could murder people!" This is not a situation where we go, "oh their rampant election fraud conspiracy theories just incited a proto-fascist insurrection at the Capitol of the United States, we should continue to let them peddle election fraud conspiracy theories while in one of the most powerful positions in the US in order to continue to incite proto-fascist action." Letting these people off the hook for this is dooming America to a real actual fascist future. The problem is that this is dangerously close to how democracies fall. Removing a large part of elected officials of one party in a two party system, because they thought the majority party had a fraudulent election is not very advantageous if you want to reinforce your population's belief in democracy. Rather it is a recipe for civil war in the future. So, you would let them peddle their conspiracy theories ad infinitum ? That would never be a recipe for civil war... Well there have been more democracies that have fallen to party members of the opposition being removed from parliament by the ruling party after an election or attack on the nation, than there have been by conspiracy theories ad infinitum. So yes I would take my chances.
Just to be clear, you're only opposed against removing them from their office ? Or are you opposing any kind of punishment ? I assume you want Trump to walk free too ?
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On January 08 2021 00:26 Silvanel wrote:
What i would do personally is not expell everyone who voted against the election result, just people who fueled the flame (on twitter, facebook and rallies) and actively encouraged this type of behavior. Do a proper invaestigation, get rid of those who contributed the most to violence. You think voting in favour of overturning the election isn't actively encouraging the people who assaulted the capitol?
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On January 08 2021 00:33 Erasme wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2021 00:31 Neneu wrote:On January 08 2021 00:28 Erasme wrote:On January 08 2021 00:27 Neneu wrote:On January 08 2021 00:16 Zambrah wrote:On January 08 2021 00:12 Neneu wrote:On January 08 2021 00:10 Zambrah wrote:On January 08 2021 00:08 Neneu wrote:
I hate to be that guy, but you do realize the irony of removing senators who voted what many of their constituents believe, that the election was a fraud, in the name of democracy?
Take a breather. Democracy will prevail as long as you don't throw it under a bus while trying to preserve it. Voting for treasonous people does not give them license to be treasonous. This is SO FAR from the moment to be taking a breather. So... it is a democratic voting with certain guidelines on what you are allowed to vote on? "He said he would murder people if we voted him in office!" Person proceeds to murder people. "We can't remove him from office, the people voted him in so he could murder people!" This is not a situation where we go, "oh their rampant election fraud conspiracy theories just incited a proto-fascist insurrection at the Capitol of the United States, we should continue to let them peddle election fraud conspiracy theories while in one of the most powerful positions in the US in order to continue to incite proto-fascist action." Letting these people off the hook for this is dooming America to a real actual fascist future. The problem is that this is dangerously close to how democracies fall. Removing a large part of elected officials of one party in a two party system, because they thought the majority party had a fraudulent election is not very advantageous if you want to reinforce your population's belief in democracy. Rather it is a recipe for civil war in the future. So, you would let them peddle their conspiracy theories ad infinitum ? That would never be a recipe for civil war... Well there have been more democracies that have fallen to party members of the opposition being removed from parliament by the ruling party after an election or attack on the nation, than there have been by conspiracy theories ad infinitum. So yes I would take my chances. Just to be clear, you're only opposed against removing them from their office ? Or are you opposing any kind of punishment ? I assume you want Trump to walk free too ?
I am against removing elected senators for what they have voted, due to what their constituents wants. That does not scream democracy to me nor a bright future for your country.
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On January 08 2021 00:34 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2021 00:26 Silvanel wrote:
What i would do personally is not expell everyone who voted against the election result, just people who fueled the flame (on twitter, facebook and rallies) and actively encouraged this type of behavior. Do a proper invaestigation, get rid of those who contributed the most to violence. You think voting in favour of overturning the election isn't actively encouraging the people who assaulted the capitol?
No. It is however passively.
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On January 08 2021 00:35 Neneu wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2021 00:33 Erasme wrote:On January 08 2021 00:31 Neneu wrote:On January 08 2021 00:28 Erasme wrote:On January 08 2021 00:27 Neneu wrote:On January 08 2021 00:16 Zambrah wrote:On January 08 2021 00:12 Neneu wrote:On January 08 2021 00:10 Zambrah wrote:On January 08 2021 00:08 Neneu wrote:
I hate to be that guy, but you do realize the irony of removing senators who voted what many of their constituents believe, that the election was a fraud, in the name of democracy?
Take a breather. Democracy will prevail as long as you don't throw it under a bus while trying to preserve it. Voting for treasonous people does not give them license to be treasonous. This is SO FAR from the moment to be taking a breather. So... it is a democratic voting with certain guidelines on what you are allowed to vote on? "He said he would murder people if we voted him in office!" Person proceeds to murder people. "We can't remove him from office, the people voted him in so he could murder people!" This is not a situation where we go, "oh their rampant election fraud conspiracy theories just incited a proto-fascist insurrection at the Capitol of the United States, we should continue to let them peddle election fraud conspiracy theories while in one of the most powerful positions in the US in order to continue to incite proto-fascist action." Letting these people off the hook for this is dooming America to a real actual fascist future. The problem is that this is dangerously close to how democracies fall. Removing a large part of elected officials of one party in a two party system, because they thought the majority party had a fraudulent election is not very advantageous if you want to reinforce your population's belief in democracy. Rather it is a recipe for civil war in the future. So, you would let them peddle their conspiracy theories ad infinitum ? That would never be a recipe for civil war... Well there have been more democracies that have fallen to party members of the opposition being removed from parliament by the ruling party after an election or attack on the nation, than there have been by conspiracy theories ad infinitum. So yes I would take my chances. Just to be clear, you're only opposed against removing them from their office ? Or are you opposing any kind of punishment ? I assume you want Trump to walk free too ? I am against removing elected senators for what they have voted, due to what their constituents wants. That does not scream democracy to me nor a bright future for your country.
But there's a very clear precedent. 4 senators were expelled for supporting the confederate rebellion. Those guys supported the trump rebellion. Also their constituents only want this because they are being fed 24/7 trump news by those very same senators. You're willing to let democracy fall because you would be too scared for the consequences. But doing nothing now just makes the issue worse down the line.
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This is not a history lesson. This is not theater. We are watching it in real time in real life. Is the solution to a large segment of the population no longer beleiving in democracy and construction of the senate being that that minority can hold senatorial power and also no longer beleiving in democracy and actively working to destroy democracy, is to simply let that occur? Your way leads to the certain end result of the destruction of democracy in USA.
The other options available for a democracy to defend itself gives democracy a chance to continue.
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EPT
