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On January 07 2021 06:09 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2021 06:02 Gorsameth wrote:On January 07 2021 05:19 Danglars wrote:On January 07 2021 05:12 Liquid`Drone wrote:On January 07 2021 04:55 Danglars wrote:On January 07 2021 04:51 TheTenthDoc wrote:On January 07 2021 04:46 Danglars wrote:On January 07 2021 04:40 TheTenthDoc wrote:
Danglars, you probably don't want to lecture people about inaccurately appraising the harms of Trump or "worse-than-Trump" while armed Trump supporters have broken into the Capital Building more or less on his behest. I mean if you think the worst that can happen with break-the-system-to-fix-the-system is violent riots in the US capitol to end the presidency of someone who can't admit he lost fair and square, you've got another thing coming. These aren't riots to end the presidency of that man. They're the opposite. You think they have a prayer of succeeding? Man, I can't imagine the fragility of such a constitutional republic. Gimme your honest odds that this mob of however many thousand successfully keep Trump in office beyond January 20th. No they're not going to succeed. But this is still way beyond the pale of what is remotely acceptable to support. Following the post-election events, do you still think Trump was a better choice than Biden? It should be fairly easy by now, regardless of your political affiliation. Alright, on to more of the main questions that should be asked. The post-election events make Biden the better choice retrospectively, all the usual hypothetical assumptions attendant. Go ahead and impeach and remove Trump now for the less hypothetical stuff, he deserves to be removed from office for squatting on Georgia's elected officials and the ceremonies of certifying an election that is finished. Thank you for that, and thank you for admitting that all the people who predicted and feared this for the last few months were right. Trump's speech would inspire this kind of riot at the capitol, or Trump was the end of Democracy? You must be forgetting the kinds of claims that were bandied about earlier. Don't retcon your previous predictions to fit with current reality, bro. Both?
WTF do you think this is. Insurgents stormed the capitol building while the court for the President-elect was going on.
Today the Republican Party did what Al'Qaeda and ISIS could no, drive a heart into American Freedom and Democracy.
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On January 07 2021 07:00 Dan HH wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2021 06:46 Broetchenholer wrote:
Classic. Now that the support of the President ended exactly how the snowflakes feared it would, GOP senators, congressman and forum representatives start telling that doing what the man they supported through all that shit is wrong and claim law and order while dodging any responsibiliy for this. Yeah I expect they'll just throw Trump under the bus and go back to pretending they have values, as if he could have done any of this without the spineless sycophancy of non true believers.
Trump and his administration have been spineless pussies throughout his term. He should have known that they would steal the election and should fought them tooth an nail every single step of the way BEFORE the election. Its too late now to grow a spine, they let down the entire country and let the election get stolen.
Kicking out party members will only split the Republican party, they all know that a splinter party will emerge and it will swallow the GOP whole. A lot more people voted for Trump rather than the Republican party.
In any case the Republican Party as a whole shit the bed on this one
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Reminder: This all started right after Trump addressed thousands of supporters in Washington DC and said 'We will never give up, we will never concede''.
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Finally police moving in. Was annoying seeing them just standing still.
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On January 07 2021 07:10 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Why aren't these people being arrested?
I think that that is pretty obvious. Compare the reaction to a left-wing protest, or even worse one that involves black people.
If you are the kind of protestor that the authorities generally agree with, like a good hard-right fascist, you get far less trouble than if you are some troublesome black guy possibly paying with a fake twenty dollar bill. Or a protest of evil antifa terrorists.
The law isn't the same for everyone.
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ABC is reporting that there's been vandalism and looting of the capitol by the terrorist group.
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Massive infiltration by white supremacists both in the local and in deliberate placement and appointed into the high leadership postions. Notable in the small numbers of police present and preventing the national guard in both deployment and in being activated.
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Alright y'all, strap in since it's going to be a long night. These fascist terrorists most likely aren't going away
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The only real solution, imo, would be the 25th amendment : impeachment and removal would take too long (and require use of the chambers being terrorized).
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On January 07 2021 07:08 Nevuk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2021 06:59 Zambrah wrote:On January 07 2021 06:53 Nevuk wrote:On January 07 2021 06:41 farvacola wrote:Prey sure it depends on the home state. Yes. Most states have the governor replace them, there are only a few oddballs that launch a special election instead and I think a few have rules that the appointed person has to be of the same party. There's a big difference between a republican willing to be a fascist and one who isn't, imo. Expulsion from the body was the reaction the last time this happened (with the confederacy's senators). What stops future Republicans from sliding back down this rabbit hole though? Theres clearly enormous political energy for these proto-fascists and Republicans can hardly be trusted to vote them down. Democrats can't be trusted to create an environment where proto-fascists can't win against an incredibly unpopular candidate. I seriously just don't know how we have a Republican party thats behaved as it has continue to exist in the US as we know it without letting a significantly more competent proto-Fascist in the door. Self preservation. The GOP congresspeople who've been on CNN and other sites clearly never expected to actually be in any danger and seem really panicky. You can be guaranteed that the current members aren't going to tolerate the sort of shit they were before - and the saner ones are still the vast majority of the republican party in both houses. Also, the GOP's long term prospects only look anything but atrocious because the democrats are a pretty mediocre party. Not sure how a party expects to survive in another decade when it only won the <30 vote in 5 states...
Thats the other half of the problem, the Democrats look mediocre and I don't really see them looking much stronger any time soon, a good example of why is calling back to that "who looks exciting for the next Presidential race?" that field did not inspire great confidence in me. Democrats REALLY REALLY REALLY need to make something substantial happen, but I don't see how that happens when Joe Manchin, Diane Feinstein and the like exist and Joe Biden is president. This does not feel like the Democrat lineup necessary to meet this moment.
Im also not sure how much it matters what Republicans tolerate, they seem significantly less adept at tamping out their populists compared to the Democrats. Whats REALLY stopping a wave of Neo Trumps from really taking over the Republicans, because I'm not sure the protestations of establishment Romney-type Republicans are really going to do when a large part of this predilection for proto-fascists is a hatred towards those very establishment-esque figures.
On January 07 2021 07:10 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Why aren't these people being arrested?
Because they're not black or brown.
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On January 07 2021 06:47 ChristianS wrote:Idk why everybody is raging at Danglars when Introvert was the onevboth sides-ing political violence and + Show Spoiler +Hmm, need to choose different verbs than “sniping at” or “taking shots at” today criticizing “weak” Dem politicians for insufficiently condemning riots this summer. Honestly Danglars I don’t know how you rile everyone up so much. I think xDaunt might have been a literal white nationalist and I still see people on here saying “xDaunt was fine, Danglars is the really bad one.” Don’t get me wrong, I’ve gotten pretty frustrated arguing with you before but I don’t know what it is about your posts that bothers people so much.
I think they've pretty much already told you at this point. I compose a post, and by the time I hit the button, there's already like 8 more posts addressed to me to read.
I just want to hold up a mirror, and ask people if their message for 2022 is "You voted for Trump, which means you're insufficiently intolerant of fascism, and you own today's violence." It sounds a lot different than "Okay, we're going to convince you that redistributing the money from taxes on the rich is a better way of handling the plight of the poor, and we'll pay more attention to the trade policies. We really want to fight against the opium epidemic that is killing off your small towns." It's just a little too much time spent on Democracy=Majority Vote, and too little on Democratic society living with people of different political ideologies (Insert BUT THEIR IDEOLOGY IS REALLY FASCISM shitposter here). I don't really believe there's so many people that dig the shared responsibility anger for the worst act of their politicians, but I try to practice the policy that posters are sincerely relaying their general thoughts (of course, not the ones that tell me they'd likely fight me in a bar or throw an egg at me in the streets, those people I really do think are just playing it up for the internet)
You don't have to act like 64 million people in 2016 and 74 million people in 2020 signed on to political violence in the event of a lost election. I'm reading anger and frustration at the political ideas I represent as the person voicing them. It's much easier to let off steam at anonymous strangers on the internet, rather than that Trump supporter in your family (and I do encourage the most vicious posters here to temper their comments to what they would say to a family member in the flesh that voted differently).
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On January 07 2021 07:06 Jockmcplop wrote:
tbf danglars has not attempted to support Trump's complaints about the election, which are at the root of this incident.
Blaming danglars and Trump supporters in general for this isn't really fair, as long as they have respected the election result. This is about fascism and democracy, not the other issues that people hate about Trump.
I'm probably going right back to disagreeing with you about basically everything, but thank you for this bit.
I may be a proxy since this forum does not have a single individual that thinks Trump really did win the election, but it was stolen from him.
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On January 07 2021 07:12 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2021 07:00 Dan HH wrote:On January 07 2021 06:46 Broetchenholer wrote:
Classic. Now that the support of the President ended exactly how the snowflakes feared it would, GOP senators, congressman and forum representatives start telling that doing what the man they supported through all that shit is wrong and claim law and order while dodging any responsibiliy for this. Yeah I expect they'll just throw Trump under the bus and go back to pretending they have values, as if he could have done any of this without the spineless sycophancy of non true believers. Trump and his administration have been spineless pussies throughout his term. He should have known that they would steal the election and should fought them tooth an nail every single step of the way BEFORE the election. Its too late now to grow a spine, they let down the entire country and let the election get stolen. Kicking out party members will only split the Republican party, they all know that a splinter party will emerge and it will swallow the GOP whole. A lot more people voted for Trump rather than the Republican party. In any case the Republican Party as a whole shit the bed on this one
I don't know what you're on about or why you quoted me. What I'm saying is that without the conservatives that know full well that the election wasn't stolen but chose for self-serving reasons to either encourage that idea or at least excuse it, it wouldn't have been possible to convince millions of people of the proverbial "dragon in my garage" that is this whole deep state election rigging business. And now those people will wash their hands of it and blame it all on Trump, but it's just as much on them.
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On January 07 2021 07:25 Danglars wrote:74 million people in 2020 signed on to political violence in the event of a lost election. Trump never hid his thoughts on the matter. His character was on display before the world for 4 years.
Sorry but no one is buying the "I didn't believe that the fascist was actually a fascist" defence anymore.
This is what the world sees when they look at America.
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Local news journalists are being attacked by people being dispersed.
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Ya the way the police are treating these white protesters is telling. This armed mob that stormed the capital was basically allowed to disperse on there own while the BLM postesters they could not load the tear gas and rubber bullets fast enough
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Whoa nelly, not exactly what I expected to see when checking TL on my lunch break. Going to need some popcorn.
On January 07 2021 05:47 Nyxisto wrote:https://twitter.com/MacaesBruno/status/1346915393349316610?s=20Us adversaries don't even need propaganda any more, they can just turn cnn on. Absolutely crazy, how do these nutjobs even get within a mile of the capitol. What's that Marx quote from The Eigteenth Brumaire, history repeats itself twice, once as tradegy then as farce? is that what the new civil war is supposed to look like
Looking forward to see what the Russian state news makes of this one. Given the date it looks like a perfect Christmas present.
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Trump and his administration have been spineless pussies throughout his term. He should have known that they would steal the election and should fought them tooth an nail every single step of the way BEFORE the election. Its too late now to grow a spine, they let down the entire country and let the election get stolen.
Do you seriously believe the elecion was "stolen" from Trump? The US has a very generous system of possibilities of trying allegations like that in courts, and we all know how it turned out. What convinces his internet cult does not fly in courtrooms, and a lot of it was not even presented.
What we knew was that Trump would not accept defeat and would blame "rigging" if he lost. If he runs in 2024, he should file the lawsuits already.
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On January 07 2021 07:25 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2021 06:47 ChristianS wrote:Idk why everybody is raging at Danglars when Introvert was the onevboth sides-ing political violence and + Show Spoiler +Hmm, need to choose different verbs than “sniping at” or “taking shots at” today criticizing “weak” Dem politicians for insufficiently condemning riots this summer. Honestly Danglars I don’t know how you rile everyone up so much. I think xDaunt might have been a literal white nationalist and I still see people on here saying “xDaunt was fine, Danglars is the really bad one.” Don’t get me wrong, I’ve gotten pretty frustrated arguing with you before but I don’t know what it is about your posts that bothers people so much. I think they've pretty much already told you at this point. I compose a post, and by the time I hit the button, there's already like 8 more posts addressed to me to read. I just want to hold up a mirror, and ask people if their message for 2022 is "You voted for Trump, which means you're insufficiently intolerant of fascism, and you own today's violence." It sounds a lot different than "Okay, we're going to convince you that redistributing the money from taxes on the rich is a better way of handling the plight of the poor, and we'll pay more attention to the trade policies. We really want to fight against the opium epidemic that is killing off your small towns." It's just a little too much time spent on Democracy=Majority Vote, and too little on Democratic society living with people of different political ideologies (Insert BUT THEIR IDEOLOGY IS REALLY FASCISM shitposter here). I don't really believe there's so many people that dig the shared responsibility anger for the worst act of their politicians, but I try to practice the policy that posters are sincerely relaying their general thoughts (of course, not the ones that tell me they'd likely fight me in a bar or throw an egg at me in the streets, those people I really do think are just playing it up for the internet) You don't have to act like 64 million people in 2016 and 74 million people in 2020 signed on to political violence in the event of a lost election. I'm reading anger and frustration at the political ideas I represent as the person voicing them. It's much easier to let off steam at anonymous strangers on the internet, rather than that Trump supporter in your family (and I do encourage the most vicious posters here to temper their comments to what they would say to a family member in the flesh that voted differently).
People that vote knowingly for fascists are fascists. People that claim they vote for facscists despite them being fascists and then backpedal when the fascists actually do somthing fascists are fascists. If you accept a fascist for personal political gain over a non fascist, you are a fascist. The only excuse is ignorance. I get that some Americans can claim ignorance. You cannot. You have been debated about the fascism of the Trump movement for 5 years by this forum. You pulled your support too late. And you can't even stop deflecting and blaming the other side when the person you voted for president for has instigated a coup d'etat. Just once, take the blame. You enabled an antidemocratic madmen and it has destabilized your country. You knew what you did, you did not care.
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On January 07 2021 07:10 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2021 06:37 hiro protagonist wrote:
Ill throw you a bone Danglars. You at least engage in debate with people who disagree with you, on a forum that is not biased in your favor, which almost no Trump supporters would do. I know a lot of people here harp on you that Trumps fascism was always obvious, and indeed to me obvious, and you were a fool to think otherwise. However, I throw no stones your way, as I voted to Joe even though I believe he sexually assaulted that women.
Im just looking forward to a day that when politics are debated, peoples lives are not endangered. I sincerely hope that people's lives are not endangered because we debate these topics. I'm not okay with people's lives being endangered that aren't engaging in criminal activities like violent riots. Show nested quote +On January 07 2021 06:38 Nouar wrote:On January 07 2021 06:34 Danglars wrote:On January 07 2021 06:21 plasmidghost wrote:
Trump vid dropped
He sees the violence and still opens with "we had an election that was stolen from us" is just beyond words. Impeach and remove. "Very nice people on both sides". You were still saying the judges or the little sisters were worth this a few weeks ago. It's too late. Nothing else to say. Liquid'Drone had the right perspective asking about 2020. You're acting like the 2016 election had voters lining up to endorse claiming the 2020 was stolen. Trump stood for issues matter to regular Americans, and Hillary spoke on different topics and didn't even think it was worth it to visit Wisconsin in her campaign. The actions of their choice after losing in 2020 doesn't change the transformation of the debate in this country from 2016-2019. Those years are still yet to be judged by historians in light of the terrible end. I post on this subject because I've debated it over and over within myself about what I believe and how that relates to political candidates and what others believe. The binary choice every 4 years is an absolutely horrible way to judge political positions. A vote for Hillary is not necessarily because you want hundreds or thousands (more?) dead in Libya. A vote for Trump is not love for the actions of a minority of his supporters, egged on by Trump for two months now. A vote for Truman was not because you liked to see millions of Japanese dead from an atomic bomb. A vote for FDR didn't mean you want to see the internment of Japanese Americans. You just can't make that leap of logic, and I will die on that hill. It's a cheapening of the debate and a dehumanizing of actual American citizens with all their ideas, hopes, and dreams. I say, leave it on the playground of children. Inside that Senate stands a man that nearly died by the hands of a Bernie Bro that opened fire at a baseball stadium. He had been to all the forums raging vociferously against the evil Republicans and wrote down the names of congressmen from my party. He stood in a time when top Democrats were calling Republicans evil and Sanders himself had accused Republicans of encouraging violence, right-wing reactionaries, intimidation etc. I'm going to hold every Sanders supporter responsible only for their reasons for voting, and only despise them if they approve of what one of his more impassioned supporters did. This logic does not change if the body count was 20, or the protest was 100, or the actors were 50 more members of "Eliminate the Republicans" Facebook Group. Hold the politician accountable (YES judge Trump for his part in this, and impeach and remove), respect the calculus of a binary choice. Trump's impact on the future of America is not just his final two months of the presidency, nor do the "this was always gonna happen, and you voted for it" worthwhile to the continued maintenance of Democracy. Neither is the final tally on "Was it worth it" already written.
It is late here so my answer, as usual, will be shorter and less articulated. (edit : proceeds to make a longer post. still badly articulated though :-D)
You are both right and wrong.
Right because this is a show, Trump and his cronies are too stupid to successfully enact a coup. There will be nothing serious happening, it's just jackasses.
Wrong because this was indeed, expected, and was always going to happen at some point. Should I remind you that white supremacists were designated the gravest threat to the US ? That bombs were made and sent to congress members and other officials a while ago ? That plots to abduct a governor were thwarted ? etc etc etc. This was expected because this is who Trump is. A corrupt crook that always incites his cronies to do illegal stuff that would benefit him.
You were saying a bit earlier that it was not acceptable how he tried to coax georgia elected officials ? But he kept doing the exact same thing during his presidency to foreign leaders. He was indirectly doing it through "fixers" like Cohen, more recently Giuliani, he has done that his whole life through massive, abusive NDAs and lawyers. Himself with Ukraine and its "perfect call".
You willfully ignored all the warning signs, and there were plenty. His whole life is filled with it. You chose to vote and elect a guy who was known for evading taxes, lying to newspapers to make himself seem rich, didn't pay his workers, hired illegal immigrants because that gives him leverage, etc. This is the trade-off you chose.
His initial rallies were about inciting violence and locking people up.
Trump's main impact is not his final two months, it's his whole presidency throwing oil on the fire, inside the US and across the world.
That you would find, NOW, that he should be impeached and removed, because what happened today and a few days ago, was unacceptable and borderline treason, is laughable in my eyes. Nearly his whole presidency has been treasonous. The US has mainly lost its standing in the world, has become a laughing stock everywhere, and climbing back will be hard.
What happened today is not even the worse thing he's done to the US of A.
A vote for Hillary is not necessarily because you want hundreds or thousands (more?) dead in Libya. A vote for Trump is not love for the actions of a minority of his supporters, egged on by Trump for two months now. A vote for Truman was not because you liked to see millions of Japanese dead from an atomic bomb. A vote for FDR didn't mean you want to see the internment of Japanese Americans. You just can't make that leap of logic, and I will die on that hill. It's a cheapening of the debate and a dehumanizing of actual American citizens with all their ideas, hopes, and dreams. I say, leave it on the playground of children.
These people at least respected the institutions, and one would not have known the worst that could happen when they voted for.
Trump had everything on display since day 1, and has had it for 30years. He has made a show of his life, his wives, and he made a show of the presidency, the institutions, everything. Even his policies were a show for his supporters, nothing was done truly for the benefit of the country. He did it to get the maximum reward, personally, every time he did something. That ended with throwing the republican party under the bus, because he holds zero loyalty for the cause, as known since... forever (pretty funny to have a look at r/conservatives today).
He was even riling up his supporters during the 2016 election about it being rigged.
The binary choice is horrid, but is maintained in part due to the republican party, the conservatives, holding the constitution as the end all, be all, a holy document that can't be touched ! (even its amendments, lol)
So, yeah. You realising only now that things have gone too far and warrant a removal, but that we were all fools for expecting things to turn out this way? No. We are lucky they are children and not smart. What happened today should not be the straw that broke the camel's back. It should just be the icing on the cake, so I can't get behind you when you only now, realise things are wrong and Trump, this time only, incited violence or tried to coax another official.
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EPT
