EPTUS Politics Mega-thread - Page 1751
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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets. Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Bagration
United States18282 Posts
Given the blatant incompetence, cover-ups, corruption, bigotry, etc. etc. that we're seeing from the US (and UK) ruling classes, does anyone else sometimes feel like screw this and hopes the US-Anglo led world order totally collapses? Our world order was created by the US, British, and Soviets, and after the Soviet Union collapsed, it has really been a US-Anglo world order. Sometimes I think the world needs a great rebalancing (less US & UK power & influence, more EU, more China, Russia, and India). Yes I'm aware that the issues like corruption, government brutality, bigotry, etc. aren't unique just to the US and UK, but the point has been that the West has flaunted its supposedly superior civic culture, government system, economic system, morality, etc. to justify more global control. China and Russia are authoritarian states, but at least there's less hypocrisy about it. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15476 Posts
On August 12 2019 03:29 Bagration wrote: Here's a question for everyone: Given the blatant incompetence, cover-ups, corruption, bigotry, etc. etc. that we're seeing from the US (and UK) ruling classes, does anyone else sometimes feel like screw this and hopes the US-Anglo led world order totally collapses? Our world order was created by the US, British, and Soviets, and after the Soviet Union collapsed, it has really been a US-Anglo world order. Sometimes I think the world needs a great rebalancing (less US & UK power & influence, more EU, more China, Russia, and India). Yes I'm aware that the issues like corruption, government brutality, bigotry, etc. aren't unique just to the US and UK, but the point has been that the West has flaunted its supposedly superior civic culture, government system, economic system, morality, etc. to justify more global control. China and Russia are authoritarian states, but at least there's less hypocrisy about it. This isn't really much other than a false equivalence. "These guys are a 10, but the other guys are a 5, so same thing, kinda, right?" The two situations are different in not only magnitude but character as well. They can barely even be compared beyond "rich people get away with a lot of stuff and generally fuck the world up significantly" But things like Clinton banging teens isn't what makes people riot or even vote differently. | ||
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Bagration
United States18282 Posts
On August 12 2019 03:36 Mohdoo wrote: This isn't really much other than a false equivalence. "These guys are a 10, but the other guys are a 5, so same thing, kinda, right?" The two situations are different in not only magnitude but character as well. They can barely even be compared beyond "rich people get away with a lot of stuff and generally fuck the world up significantly" But things like Clinton banging teens isn't what makes people riot or even vote differently. I agree it's not a logical reasoning, but I'm wondering if anyone else has gotten this feeling or seen others express this. Because if so, it could easily be a messaging theme for the revisionist powers (Russia & China). And while it might not be a single incident (e.g., Epstein), the general feeling is that people are tired of the corrupt elites and have been voting in a way that reflects that anger. Plus, there's definitely a lot of non-logical reasoning that's been happening across politics (e.g., middle America was tired of the coastal elites, so they elected a New York billionaire to represent them) | ||
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Muliphein
49 Posts
The only real hope for humanity is the EU. If the EU is ever destroyed, we are all super fucked. Luckily, the EU is very competent, as the UK negotiators are now slowly finding out. BTW, in Belgium there is this conspiracy theory claiming that 20 witnesses died in the Marc Dutroux case. In the UK, we have this whole thing with Jimmy Savile. People do in fact riot over this, and the conspiracy theory is that super-rich super-powerful white men set up a secret system where they abuse girls and have the power to cover anything up. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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FueledUpAndReadyToGo
Netherlands30548 Posts
On August 12 2019 03:29 Bagration wrote: Here's a question for everyone: Given the blatant incompetence, cover-ups, corruption, bigotry, etc. etc. that we're seeing from the US (and UK) ruling classes, does anyone else sometimes feel like screw this and hopes the US-Anglo led world order totally collapses? Our world order was created by the US, British, and Soviets, and after the Soviet Union collapsed, it has really been a US-Anglo world order. Sometimes I think the world needs a great rebalancing (less US & UK power & influence, more EU, more China, Russia, and India). Yes I'm aware that the issues like corruption, government brutality, bigotry, etc. aren't unique just to the US and UK, but the point has been that the West has flaunted its supposedly superior civic culture, government system, economic system, morality, etc. to justify more global control. China and Russia are authoritarian states, but at least there's less hypocrisy about it. I don't believe there is less hypocrisy at all. China wouldn't need to censor everything if this were true. They don't want people to get the 'wrong idea' about everything they are doing. It's all for the good of the people of course and totally not for the good of Xi and his companions. They are just helping those poor Tibetans and Uygurs and they will 'help' those poor Hong Kong people suffering from those scary protests soon enough Same with Russia, if they were not hypocritical about it they wouldn't need 24/7 propaganda or eliminating every worthwhile political opponent, they could just cancel elections. Putin and Medvedevs job dance was the most hypocritical thing ever to appear to uphold the term limit. They wouldn't need to lie to their own people about what they are doing in Ukraine. India's president Modi just basically did a military invasion of Kashmir shutting them off from the world completely for ethnic cleansing purposes but they are saying it's to 'develop the region and integrate it better with the rest of India' None of them want be seen as authoritarian 'officially' there's a huge amount of smoke and mirrors | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States22994 Posts
On August 12 2019 07:07 JimmiC wrote: Who knows what will make people in the states riot or march. I would have thought thinks like Sandy hook, Vegas, Pulse, the El Pasi and "Toledo" incidents would cause some sort of uproar, but barely a squeak. It is the 54th anniversary of the Watts Rebellion, so there's one thing that we'll reliably march, riot, and even fight a civil war over. White supremacy. Problem was, is, and will be, not enough white people in real opposition to it. | ||
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Wegandi
United States2455 Posts
On August 12 2019 05:20 Muliphein wrote: As much as I despite the US, China is much worse and way more scarier. Especially since ever since the Beijing Olympics, which was supposed to make China more to the west according to the west, the west has been learning and copying from the Chinese authoritarian state-run capitalist system. In the west, we have felt the downsides of unregulated capitalism. But capitalism 'with Asian values' is way worse as it strips ordinary citizens completely of their humanity. The only real hope for humanity is the EU. If the EU is ever destroyed, we are all super fucked. Luckily, the EU is very competent, as the UK negotiators are now slowly finding out. BTW, in Belgium there is this conspiracy theory claiming that 20 witnesses died in the Marc Dutroux case. In the UK, we have this whole thing with Jimmy Savile. People do in fact riot over this, and the conspiracy theory is that super-rich super-powerful white men set up a secret system where they abuse girls and have the power to cover anything up. The major thing that worries you (and makes it worse than the US) about China is capitalism...ok bud. Then you talk about the EU being the world's saving grace...you know the EU is a capitalist region, right? | ||
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CuddlyCuteKitten
Sweden2580 Posts
On August 12 2019 07:22 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: I don't believe there is less hypocrisy at all. China wouldn't need to censor everything if this were true. They don't want people to get the 'wrong idea' about everything they are doing. It's all for the good of the people of course and totally not for the good of Xi and his companions. They are just helping those poor Tibetans and Uygurs and they will 'help' those poor Hong Kong people suffering from those scary protests soon enough Same with Russia, if they were not hypocritical about it they wouldn't need 24/7 propaganda or eliminating every worthwhile political opponent, they could just cancel elections. Putin and Medvedevs job dance was the most hypocritical thing ever to appear to uphold the term limit. They wouldn't need to lie to their own people about what they are doing in Ukraine. India's president Modi just basically did a military invasion of Kashmir shutting them off from the world completely for ethnic cleansing purposes but they are saying it's to 'develop the region and integrate it better with the rest of India' None of them want be seen as authoritarian 'officially' there's a huge amount of smoke and mirrors China is a pretty special breed of authoritarian. Russia (and now India?) is classically authoritarian and staying in power is the number one priority which takes juggling basically every aspect of the state. When not doing shit to stay in power you can do stuff to strengthen the motherland, of course not giving a crap about what the rest of the world things. For example invade Ukraine. You then wait out the outrage before you strike again. China haven't had the stay in power dynamic for a long time. Their biggest fear have been having an economic downturn that causes the population to be disgruntled. This means priorities have been very different and their leaders have had a lot more time to implement policy. And they have spent a lot of effort on trying to create some kind of mono-block culture coupled with a surveillance and propaganda state. Like everything they do it's incredibly long turn. China doesn't vilify the Uygurs to use them as scape goats like a normal authoritarian regime would, they vilify them in order to change them into "Chinese". Obviously if they reach the point where you have a more homogenus mass of people dissidents will be the real scapegoats of society as we are already seeing with the social credit score etc. And like everything China does it's low-key, persistent and incredibly long sighted. Hong Kong doesn't stand a chance in the long run, they will outlast the protests until they can make some concessions and get half the law that they want. Then wait a few years, do it again. Eventually the city will be fully integrated. Because there doesn't seem to have been as much leadership challenge the Chinese administration seems to be fairly data driven and they actually do things for their people. You could say that they really care about things like the environment and corruption. But from a more cynical point of view it's more likely that cracking down on local corruption, air pollution and getting people out of poverty is an easier way to keep people happy when coupled with more authoritarian measures than just being heavy handed. The interesting thing is that with their new surveillance state and all the new tools for data analysis that we have today it's likely that the government of China will have a pretty good handle on what people are upset about. And it's a lot easier to keep people under control with propaganda and repression if you only have to use it on a smaller set of the population. So I could easily see a China where key issues that people care about is actually dealt with (and propaganda moving people towards these key issues of course!) as much as them sliding in to a true 1984 style society. | ||
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Ayaz2810
United States2763 Posts
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Ryzel
United States521 Posts
1) Guilt. Yeah right. 2) Fear of being imprisoned for life. More likely than guilt but he’s been in a similar situation before. He probably thinks he has outs. 3) Attempting to save reputation of himself/others close to him. From what I’ve read he doesn’t have anyone close to him, and everyone already knows he’s a pedophile. 4) Prison conditions are so miserable he’d do anything to escape them. Can’t really comment on that, but I think if they were that bad we’d be seeing even more suicides than we already do. He doesn’t seem to fit the psychological profile of someone who’s high-risk for suicide. If anything, he’s likely diagnosable as having narcissistic personality disorder, which a recent study has shown to coincide with LESS suicide attempts compared to baseline population (source). To me, 100% chance of foul play. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15476 Posts
On August 12 2019 22:38 Ryzel wrote: Personally, it doesn’t strike me as likely that Epstein would willingly end his life under any circumstance. What are the possible motivations... 1) Guilt. Yeah right. 2) Fear of being imprisoned for life. More likely then guilt but he’s been in a similar situation before. He probably thinks he has outs. 3) Attempting to save reputation of himself/others close to him. From what I’ve read he doesn’t have anyone close to him, and everyone already knows he’s a pedophile. 4) Prison conditions are so miserable he’d do anything to escape them. Can’t really comment on that, but I think if they were that bad we’d be seeing even more suicides than we already do. He doesn’t seem to fit the psychological profile of someone who’s high-risk for suicide. If anything, he’s likely diagnosable as having narcissistic personality disorder, which a recent study has shown to coincide with LESS suicide attempts compared to baseline population (source). To me, 100% chance of foul play. Agreed. Journalists should always be saying "supposed suicide", feels ridiculous otherwise | ||
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Neneu
Norway492 Posts
On August 12 2019 22:38 Ryzel wrote: Personally, it doesn’t strike me as likely that Epstein would willingly end his life under any circumstance. What are the possible motivations... 1) Guilt. Yeah right. 2) Fear of being imprisoned for life. More likely then guilt but he’s been in a similar situation before. He probably thinks he has outs. 3) Attempting to save reputation of himself/others close to him. From what I’ve read he doesn’t have anyone close to him, and everyone already knows he’s a pedophile. 4) Prison conditions are so miserable he’d do anything to escape them. Can’t really comment on that, but I think if they were that bad we’d be seeing even more suicides than we already do. He doesn’t seem to fit the psychological profile of someone who’s high-risk for suicide. If anything, he’s likely diagnosable as having narcissistic personality disorder, which a recent study has shown to coincide with LESS suicide attempts compared to baseline population (source). To me, 100% chance of foul play. So someone who has previously attempted suicide in prison does not fit the psychological profile of someone who's high-risk for suicide? ..wait what?! Also on number 2, maybe he did not think he had an out anymore. Except, well you know.. Humans are complex and people tend to not always be rational, especially when massive changes are happening to their lives which are out of their own control. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15476 Posts
On August 13 2019 00:04 Neneu wrote: So someone who has previously attempted suicide in prison does not fit the psychological profile of someone who's high-risk for suicide? ..wait what?! Also on number 2, maybe he did not think he had an out anymore. Except, well you know.. Humans are complex and people tend to not always be rational, especially when massive changes are happening to their lives which are out of their own control. Do we know for sure he attempted suicide the first time? To me, it comes down to the question: Did Epstein believe he had a path to at least living a somewhat pleasant life? If he still had resources at his disposal, suicide makes zero sense. If he got hung out to dry, suicide makes sense. I still believe he had enough aces up his sleeve to at least end up in a luxury prison. Neither suicide attempt makes sense to me IMO. | ||
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Ryzel
United States521 Posts
On August 13 2019 00:12 Mohdoo wrote: Do we know for sure he attempted suicide the first time? To me, it comes down to the question: Did Epstein believe he had a path to at least living a somewhat pleasant life? If he still had resources at his disposal, suicide makes zero sense. If he got hung out to dry, suicide makes sense. I still believe he had enough aces up his sleeve to at least end up in a luxury prison. Neither suicide attempt makes sense to me IMO. Agreed. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Ayaz2810
United States2763 Posts
On August 13 2019 01:03 JimmiC wrote: I don't see how this would not get investigated to all hell. Not only are "both sides" suspicious, but so is everyone outside of those sides. I have already read how and why Trump did this, the Clinton's, the Deep state, a new Cabal, the Royals. If the FBI cares at all about its credibility (and it is questionable that they do) they are going to investigate the hell out of this. And investigate as much as they can about Epstien, how he got his money and who was around him, who made the trips and so on. If there is no jail time I hope at least history remembers these fucks as the slime-balls they are. At this point I'm legitimately concerned that no matter what is found, it will be disappeared. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21531 Posts
On August 13 2019 01:03 JimmiC wrote: So what became of those Panama papers?I don't see how this would not get investigated to all hell. Not only are "both sides" suspicious, but so is everyone outside of those sides. I have already read how and why Trump did this, the Clinton's, the Deep state, a new Cabal, the Royals. If the FBI cares at all about its credibility (and it is questionable that they do) they are going to investigate the hell out of this. And investigate as much as they can about Epstien, how he got his money and who was around him, who made the trips and so on. If there is no jail time I hope at least history remembers these fucks as the slime-balls they are. Because in a week the 24/7 news cycle will have moved on to something else and 'the public' will stop giving a shit and poof, its gone as if nothing happened. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15476 Posts
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