On July 29 2014 10:19 DinoMight wrote: Then you follow it up by saying that it's okay for Jews to do all these things because "The Hollocaust." But when Arabs do literally the same exact things (hide weapons in unethical places, use terrorist tactics) you cry OUTRAGE. .
No, this is absurd relativism. The Hamas doesn't fight for their people's freedom, they fight because they want to destroy the Israelian state. They have written it in their charter and their leaders have repeatedly said it. They fight so that they can pile up a bunch of Palestinian corpses, which in return will result in you pointing your fingers at the evil Israelians. I have to applaud them, given the huge circlejerk here apparently it's working great.
And the Israeli Zionist terrorists were fighting for who's freedom? They were already free to live in the British controlled Palestine as they pleased.
It's their demand for an exclusive Jewish state that started this.
On July 29 2014 10:19 DinoMight wrote: Then you follow it up by saying that it's okay for Jews to do all these things because "The Hollocaust." But when Arabs do literally the same exact things (hide weapons in unethical places, use terrorist tactics) you cry OUTRAGE. .
No, this is absurd relativism. The Hamas doesn't fight for their people's freedom, they fight because they want to destroy the Israelian state. They have written it in their charter and their leaders have repeatedly said it. They fight so that they can pile up a bunch of Palestinian corpses, which in return will result in you pointing your fingers at the evil Israelians. I have to applaud them, given the huge circlejerk here apparently it's working great.
It seems like you've only become more entrenched in your viewpoint, especially since that Sam Harris blog post.
On July 29 2014 10:19 DinoMight wrote: Then you follow it up by saying that it's okay for Jews to do all these things because "The Hollocaust." But when Arabs do literally the same exact things (hide weapons in unethical places, use terrorist tactics) you cry OUTRAGE. .
I have to applaud them, given the huge circlejerk here apparently it's working great.
On July 21 2014 17:53 zeo wrote: Actually fuck it, I won't post in that thread again. Have fun with your circlejerk, actual discussion died in the General forum a long time ago.
If you're not worried about your present company, it must be a doubly terrifying day to be a russian jew. The entire world is out to get them, you know?
Like zeo, you have come into this thread with the preconceived notion that your side is completely innocent and should be free from criticism because hey, other people have done worse things.
On July 29 2014 10:19 DinoMight wrote: Then you follow it up by saying that it's okay for Jews to do all these things because "The Hollocaust." But when Arabs do literally the same exact things (hide weapons in unethical places, use terrorist tactics) you cry OUTRAGE. .
I have to applaud them, given the huge circlejerk here apparently it's working great.
On July 21 2014 17:53 zeo wrote: Actually fuck it, I won't post in that thread again. Have fun with your circlejerk, actual discussion died in the General forum a long time ago.
If you're not worried about your present company, it must be a doubly terrifying day to be a russian jew. The entire world is out to get them, you know?
Like zeo, you have come into this thread with the preconceived notion that your side is completely innocent and should be free from criticism because hey, other people have done worse things.
Not only did I never say that Israel is free from criticism(I have in this thread criticized Israel's settlement policy in the West-bank) , neither am I a tinfoil hat wearing Russian conspiracy theorist. And given how often history has proven indeed that the "world was out to get them" I'll just say that your comment comes off as especially cynical.
To come back to present times, here's an excellent piece (published on the 9th of July) underlining Netanyahu's responsibility in both the current crisis and the state of the Israelo-Palestinian conflict in general.
We got here because Benjamin Netanyahu brought us here. [...] [It] was his antagonism toward all Palestinians – toward Mahmoud Abbas’ Palestinian Authority no less than toward Hamas – that started and steadily provoked the chain reaction that led to the current misery."
^ I just heard about that, fuck... I still don't understand how any sane person can justify these kind of attacks.
Children were playing on a swing when the strike hit the park in the Shati refugee camp on the edge of Gaza City, said Ayman Sahabani, head of the emergency room at nearby Shifa Hospital.
Children were playing on a swing when the strike hit the park in the Shati refugee camp on the edge of Gaza City, said Ayman Sahabani, head of the emergency room at nearby Shifa Hospital.
Wonder what kind of excuse there'll be for this.
Hamas made them do it!
It's just sickening. How many palestinian innocents is one israeli life worth?
On July 29 2014 10:19 DinoMight wrote: Then you follow it up by saying that it's okay for Jews to do all these things because "The Hollocaust." But when Arabs do literally the same exact things (hide weapons in unethical places, use terrorist tactics) you cry OUTRAGE. .
No, this is absurd relativism. The Hamas doesn't fight for their people's freedom, they fight because they want to destroy the Israelian state. They have written it in their charter and their leaders have repeatedly said it. They fight so that they can pile up a bunch of Palestinian corpses, which in return will result in you pointing your fingers at the evil Israelians. I have to applaud them, given the huge circlejerk here apparently it's working great.
And are you being facetious with #2 or are you ignorant of even the Israel-can-do-no-wrong-ever-because-we're-god's-chosen-people version of history?
No, and don't act like it's a settled debate. There is quite some dispute about whether the Israelians 'kicked the Arabs out', or if the Palestinians withdrew in anticipation of a destruction of Israel , or a combination of both.
Let's get this straight then: you think Hamas is pure evil that's oppressing even it's own population, who are suffering not because of Israel and Sisi's Egypt, but because they elected Hamas. And what exactly do you think led to the rise of Hamas? Radical Islam? Anti semitism?
On July 29 2014 10:19 DinoMight wrote: Then you follow it up by saying that it's okay for Jews to do all these things because "The Hollocaust." But when Arabs do literally the same exact things (hide weapons in unethical places, use terrorist tactics) you cry OUTRAGE. .
I have to applaud them, given the huge circlejerk here apparently it's working great.
On July 21 2014 17:53 zeo wrote: Actually fuck it, I won't post in that thread again. Have fun with your circlejerk, actual discussion died in the General forum a long time ago.
If you're not worried about your present company, it must be a doubly terrifying day to be a russian jew. The entire world is out to get them, you know?
Like zeo, you have come into this thread with the preconceived notion that your side is completely innocent and should be free from criticism because hey, other people have done worse things.
Not only did I never say that Israel is free from criticism(I have in this thread criticized Israel's settlement policy in the West-bank) , neither am I a tinfoil hat wearing Russian conspiracy theorist. And given how often history has proven indeed that the "world was out to get them" I'll just say that your comment comes off as especially cynical.
But Israel is not "the jews" and german are not "the world".
On July 29 2014 10:19 DinoMight wrote: Then you follow it up by saying that it's okay for Jews to do all these things because "The Hollocaust." But when Arabs do literally the same exact things (hide weapons in unethical places, use terrorist tactics) you cry OUTRAGE. .
No, this is absurd relativism. The Hamas doesn't fight for their people's freedom, they fight because they want to destroy the Israelian state. They have written it in their charter and their leaders have repeatedly said it. They fight so that they can pile up a bunch of Palestinian corpses, which in return will result in you pointing your fingers at the evil Israelians. I have to applaud them, given the huge circlejerk here apparently it's working great.
And are you being facetious with #2 or are you ignorant of even the Israel-can-do-no-wrong-ever-because-we're-god's-chosen-people version of history?
No, and don't act like it's a settled debate. There is quite some dispute about whether the Israelians 'kicked the Arabs out', or if the Palestinians withdrew in anticipation of a destruction of Israel , or a combination of both.
You are mistaking the subject. There are facts - that the Israeli had issued orders about "transferring" the Arabs out of "Eretz" Israel lands. Those are facts.
The subject of the discussion is on wheither they did systematic ethnic cleansing or if the Arabs withdrew by themselves. That doesn't change the fact that orders were made and that there was a policy of ethnic cleansing - what is discussed is weither that policy is responsible for the transfer or not.
On July 29 2014 15:07 darkness wrote: Does anyone really take sides? I think both are violent enough not to support either.
That is my take as well. I find it quite impressive actually how people can simply blind themselves to the atrocities of one side or the other.
I'm not blind. I just hold a western, US backed nation state to a higher standard than a terrorist organisation. Both are appalling in their disregard for human life but why should Israel escape condemnation because the terrorists are just as bad?
As for the original comment stop confusing criticism of Israel with support for Hamas.
On July 29 2014 15:07 darkness wrote: Does anyone really take sides? I think both are violent enough not to support either.
That is my take as well. I find it quite impressive actually how people can simply blind themselves to the atrocities of one side or the other.
no such thing as blinding on my side. I'm just appalled at the rising death toll especially civilians on the Palestinian side and I don't see why anyone should turn a blind eye to that, that's all.
On July 29 2014 15:07 darkness wrote: Does anyone really take sides? I think both are violent enough not to support either.
That is my take as well. I find it quite impressive actually how people can simply blind themselves to the atrocities of one side or the other.
I'm not blind. I just hold a western, US backed nation state to a higher standard than a terrorist organisation. Both are appalling in their disregard for human life but why should Israel escape condemnation because the terrorists are just as bad?
As for the original comment stop confusing criticism of Israel with support for Hamas.
It make it worse coming from Israel than the Hamas. Israel is a democratic state, that defend itself a beacon for occidental culture in the heart of the arab world. It is state terrorism, that goes through channel and orders, structured institutions, and not individuals - which is the Hamas, even if they are powerful (note they had approx 45 % of the voters vote during the 2006 elections).
On July 29 2014 10:19 DinoMight wrote: Then you follow it up by saying that it's okay for Jews to do all these things because "The Hollocaust." But when Arabs do literally the same exact things (hide weapons in unethical places, use terrorist tactics) you cry OUTRAGE. .
I have to applaud them, given the huge circlejerk here apparently it's working great.
On July 21 2014 17:53 zeo wrote: Actually fuck it, I won't post in that thread again. Have fun with your circlejerk, actual discussion died in the General forum a long time ago.
If you're not worried about your present company, it must be a doubly terrifying day to be a russian jew. The entire world is out to get them, you know?
Like zeo, you have come into this thread with the preconceived notion that your side is completely innocent and should be free from criticism because hey, other people have done worse things.
Not only did I never say that Israel is free from criticism(I have in this thread criticized Israel's settlement policy in the West-bank) , neither am I a tinfoil hat wearing Russian conspiracy theorist. And given how often history has proven indeed that the "world was out to get them" I'll just say that your comment comes off as especially cynical.
But Israel is not "the jews" and german are not "the world".
I really don't want to get too involved in this discussion because both sides are at fault here. But I would like to point out, that the Germans were by far not the only ones that wanted "to get" the Jews. Jews have been persecuted for as long as written history exists. In the middle ages they were blamed for killing Jesus. People thought that they poison wells and steal children. This believe was held all across Europe. In many places they were prevented from holding land and had to life in small enclaves.
Jewish persecution does not start with Nazi Germany. Furthermore many of the countries Germany invaded actively helped to cleanse their Jewish population. The reason why it was so easy for Hitler to persecute the Jews, was that he could tap into literally hundred of years of prejudices against the Jewish communities.
Israel should be criticized for what they are doing, but people shouldn't forget that Zionism didn't just fall from the blue sky.
Some Journalist even say, that "defeating/destroying" Hamas would be the worst possible outcome because more extreme organisations/people would likely overtake.
On July 29 2014 10:19 DinoMight wrote: Then you follow it up by saying that it's okay for Jews to do all these things because "The Hollocaust." But when Arabs do literally the same exact things (hide weapons in unethical places, use terrorist tactics) you cry OUTRAGE. .
I have to applaud them, given the huge circlejerk here apparently it's working great.
On July 21 2014 17:53 zeo wrote: Actually fuck it, I won't post in that thread again. Have fun with your circlejerk, actual discussion died in the General forum a long time ago.
If you're not worried about your present company, it must be a doubly terrifying day to be a russian jew. The entire world is out to get them, you know?
Like zeo, you have come into this thread with the preconceived notion that your side is completely innocent and should be free from criticism because hey, other people have done worse things.
Not only did I never say that Israel is free from criticism(I have in this thread criticized Israel's settlement policy in the West-bank) , neither am I a tinfoil hat wearing Russian conspiracy theorist. And given how often history has proven indeed that the "world was out to get them" I'll just say that your comment comes off as especially cynical.
But Israel is not "the jews" and german are not "the world".
I really don't want to get too involved in this discussion because both sides are at fault here. But I would like to point out, that the Germans were by far not the only ones that wanted "to get" the Jews. Jews have been persecuted for as long as written history exists. In the middle ages they were blamed for killing Jesus. People thought that they poison wells and steal children. This believe was held all across Europe. In many places they were prevented from holding land and had to life in small enclaves.
Jewish persecution does not start with Nazi Germany. Furthermore many of the countries Germany invaded actively helped to cleanse their Jewish population. The reason why it was so easy for Hitler to persecute the Jews, was that he could tap into literally hundred of years of prejudices against the Jewish communities.
Israel should be criticized for what they are doing, but people shouldn't forget that Zionism didn't just fall from the blue sky.
It does not change the fact that the german did the holocaust or you disagree ? Aside from the holocaust, I think we can agree that jew were not more discriminated than say the black people.
On July 29 2014 10:19 DinoMight wrote: Then you follow it up by saying that it's okay for Jews to do all these things because "The Hollocaust." But when Arabs do literally the same exact things (hide weapons in unethical places, use terrorist tactics) you cry OUTRAGE. .
I have to applaud them, given the huge circlejerk here apparently it's working great.
On July 21 2014 17:53 zeo wrote: Actually fuck it, I won't post in that thread again. Have fun with your circlejerk, actual discussion died in the General forum a long time ago.
If you're not worried about your present company, it must be a doubly terrifying day to be a russian jew. The entire world is out to get them, you know?
Like zeo, you have come into this thread with the preconceived notion that your side is completely innocent and should be free from criticism because hey, other people have done worse things.
Not only did I never say that Israel is free from criticism(I have in this thread criticized Israel's settlement policy in the West-bank) , neither am I a tinfoil hat wearing Russian conspiracy theorist. And given how often history has proven indeed that the "world was out to get them" I'll just say that your comment comes off as especially cynical.
But Israel is not "the jews" and german are not "the world".
I really don't want to get too involved in this discussion because both sides are at fault here. But I would like to point out, that the Germans were by far not the only ones that wanted "to get" the Jews. Jews have been persecuted for as long as written history exists. In the middle ages they were blamed for killing Jesus. People thought that they poison wells and steal children. This believe was held all across Europe. In many places they were prevented from holding land and had to life in small enclaves.
Jewish persecution does not start with Nazi Germany. Furthermore many of the countries Germany invaded actively helped to cleanse their Jewish population. The reason why it was so easy for Hitler to persecute the Jews, was that he could tap into literally hundred of years of prejudices against the Jewish communities.
Israel should be criticized for what they are doing, but people shouldn't forget that Zionism didn't just fall from the blue sky.
It does not change the fact that the german did the holocaust or you disagree ?
Zionism was founded before the Holocaust. And he didn't talk specifically about the Holocaust but the general persecution of the Jews. Whether or not I disagree depends entirely on what you mean by "did". Germans initiated and planned the Holocaust. Execution wise there are a lot of details. This is irrelevant though. I only meant to say, that hatred for Jews is not a "pure" German phenomena.
On July 29 2014 10:19 DinoMight wrote: Then you follow it up by saying that it's okay for Jews to do all these things because "The Hollocaust." But when Arabs do literally the same exact things (hide weapons in unethical places, use terrorist tactics) you cry OUTRAGE. .
I have to applaud them, given the huge circlejerk here apparently it's working great.
On July 21 2014 17:53 zeo wrote: Actually fuck it, I won't post in that thread again. Have fun with your circlejerk, actual discussion died in the General forum a long time ago.
If you're not worried about your present company, it must be a doubly terrifying day to be a russian jew. The entire world is out to get them, you know?
Like zeo, you have come into this thread with the preconceived notion that your side is completely innocent and should be free from criticism because hey, other people have done worse things.
Not only did I never say that Israel is free from criticism(I have in this thread criticized Israel's settlement policy in the West-bank) , neither am I a tinfoil hat wearing Russian conspiracy theorist. And given how often history has proven indeed that the "world was out to get them" I'll just say that your comment comes off as especially cynical.
But Israel is not "the jews" and german are not "the world".
I really don't want to get too involved in this discussion because both sides are at fault here. But I would like to point out, that the Germans were by far not the only ones that wanted "to get" the Jews. Jews have been persecuted for as long as written history exists. In the middle ages they were blamed for killing Jesus. People thought that they poison wells and steal children. This believe was held all across Europe. In many places they were prevented from holding land and had to life in small enclaves.
Jewish persecution does not start with Nazi Germany. Furthermore many of the countries Germany invaded actively helped to cleanse their Jewish population. The reason why it was so easy for Hitler to persecute the Jews, was that he could tap into literally hundred of years of prejudices against the Jewish communities.
Israel should be criticized for what they are doing, but people shouldn't forget that Zionism didn't just fall from the blue sky.
It does not change the fact that the german did the holocaust or you disagree ?
Zionism was founded before the Holocaust. And he didn't talk specifically about the Holocaust but the general persecution of the Jews. Whether or not I disagree depends entirely on what you mean by "did". Germans initiated and planned the Holocaust. Execution wise there are a lot of details. This is irrelevant though. I only meant to say, that hatred for Jews is not a "pure" German phenomena.
It doesn't change the fact that the holocaust was made by german. That's it, when you make referrence to the holocaust, to the fact that jew fled europe, you cannot directly link it to zionism. Zionism was not entirely a reaction to the persecution, it is a tendency of all community : what gave it its strength is the holocaust.
There are hatred for every community in every community, that's also inbuilt in human society. What made antisemitism special in 1930 and before was that jews lived in europe, while arabs or black people (or indians) were colonised. It doesn't mean that they suffered less.
EPT
