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On July 29 2014 07:14 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2014 07:11 EtherealBlade wrote:On July 29 2014 07:04 Nyxisto wrote:On July 29 2014 07:00 DinoMight wrote:On July 29 2014 06:55 EtherealBlade wrote:On July 29 2014 06:47 Nyxisto wrote:On July 29 2014 06:38 DinoMight wrote:On July 29 2014 06:32 Nyxisto wrote:On July 29 2014 06:25 ImFromPortugal wrote:On July 29 2014 06:05 Nyxisto wrote:
[quote]
It's war, but as you're blatantly ignoring the realities of modern warfare that are not exclusive to this conflict anyway it doesn't make much sense to continue talking to you. Israel has never been convicted of committing genocide nor is any sane person accusing them of it.
[quote]
So you're denying Israel's right to exist completely? It at least sounds like that's what you're implying. Bro i was hoping for you to reply and say something about the terrorism from the zionist not so long ago.. but not a single word.. could you please tell me your stand in this issue ? I'm not denying that some of the paramilitary groups used terrorism, but they were fighting for an independent state, after they had experienced the Holocaust in Europe. The Hamas is not a group a freedom fighters. They don't want peace, they want to kill every Jew they can find. It's in their charter, it's what everyone of their leaders has said. It's why they rejected the two state solution in 1947. On July 29 2014 06:31 EtherealBlade wrote:
This is ridiculous. They were not being exterminated on the European continent. Sweden, Spain, Switzerland, Turkey were all neutral countries. . No European country was willing to give refuge to a significant amount of Jews in Europe. That's precisely why 90% of them either migrated to Israel or the US. They rejected the two state solution because they had 100% of the land and someone told them hey, how about you give half of it to these people so they can form their own country. How do you think the US would respond if someone said "you know Tibetans are being opressed in China and they could really use their own country, why don't you give them Florida?" The answer would be "fuck off." You'd have said the same thing. If it's all about the law of the jungle what are we even discussing right now? On July 29 2014 06:42 DinoMight wrote:On July 29 2014 06:32 Nyxisto wrote:
I'm not denying that some of the paramilitary groups used terrorism, but they were fighting for an independent state, after they had experienced the Holocaust in Europe. So the holocaust is justification for Terrorism? Because from what I hear the Palestinians are also fighting for an independent state. They're not fighting for an Independent state, they're fighting for a Palestine without Israel. If all they wanted was an independent state all they'd need to do is to put their weapons down. Abu Marzouk, Hamas senior a few months ago: “We would have spared ourselves seven years of misery under the siege and two wars in 2008 and 2012 had we wanted to recognize Israel,” he said. Sourceedit: wrong guy The two blocks you've quoted perfectly answer each other. So why do you think the Palestinians don't accept peace? This. If I came to your house and said, "oy, this basement now belongs to this homeless family that really needs it..." how would you react? In the Palestinians eyes, their land was taken away from them. And now they're being driven into corners of it and forced to live in pitiful conditions. What do you expect them to do? Put down their guns and hope that Israel reverses a 65 year trend of abusing them? If my house was like ten thousand square miles big and owned by the British, I'd say "sure have some of it" On July 29 2014 06:55 EtherealBlade wrote:On July 29 2014 06:47 Nyxisto wrote:On July 29 2014 06:38 DinoMight wrote:On July 29 2014 06:32 Nyxisto wrote:On July 29 2014 06:25 ImFromPortugal wrote:On July 29 2014 06:05 Nyxisto wrote:On July 29 2014 06:01 EtherealBlade wrote:
So is this self defense? Or genocide? It's war, but as you're blatantly ignoring the realities of modern warfare that are not exclusive to this conflict anyway it doesn't make much sense to continue talking to you. Israel has never been convicted of committing genocide nor is any sane person accusing them of it. On July 29 2014 05:51 DinoMight wrote:
[quote]
20.7% Arabs to 75.3% Jews in a country that is 65 years old on land that was previously near 100% Arabs (including Jewish arabs).
So you're denying Israel's right to exist completely? It at least sounds like that's what you're implying. Bro i was hoping for you to reply and say something about the terrorism from the zionist not so long ago.. but not a single word.. could you please tell me your stand in this issue ? I'm not denying that some of the paramilitary groups used terrorism, but they were fighting for an independent state, after they had experienced the Holocaust in Europe. The Hamas is not a group a freedom fighters. They don't want peace, they want to kill every Jew they can find. It's in their charter, it's what everyone of their leaders has said. It's why they rejected the two state solution in 1947. On July 29 2014 06:31 EtherealBlade wrote:
This is ridiculous. They were not being exterminated on the European continent. Sweden, Spain, Switzerland, Turkey were all neutral countries. . No European country was willing to give refuge to a significant amount of Jews in Europe. That's precisely why 90% of them either migrated to Israel or the US. They rejected the two state solution because they had 100% of the land and someone told them hey, how about you give half of it to these people so they can form their own country. How do you think the US would respond if someone said "you know Tibetans are being opressed in China and they could really use their own country, why don't you give them Florida?" The answer would be "fuck off." You'd have said the same thing. If it's all about the law of the jungle what are we even discussing right now? On July 29 2014 06:42 DinoMight wrote:On July 29 2014 06:32 Nyxisto wrote:
I'm not denying that some of the paramilitary groups used terrorism, but they were fighting for an independent state, after they had experienced the Holocaust in Europe. So the holocaust is justification for Terrorism? Because from what I hear the Palestinians are also fighting for an independent state. They're not fighting for an Independent state, they're fighting for a Palestine without Israel. If all they wanted was an independent state all they'd need to do is to put their weapons down. Abu Marzouk, Hamas senior a few months ago: “We would have spared ourselves seven years of misery under the siege and two wars in 2008 and 2012 had we wanted to recognize Israel,” he said. Sourceedit: wrong guy The two blocks you've quoted perfectly answer each other. So why do you think the Palestinians don't accept peace? There are Palestinians that would accept peace, but the Hamas certainly does not, they won't fight until every Israeli is gone. Let's put this into perspective then, there are 3 million Turkish living in Germany. One day they decide to carve out roughly one fourth of Germany because they desire an independent state. They start to bomb hotels, assassinate people and form armies. Do you give away one fourth of Germany, including the city you live in, to this new state, where it's declared that Germans cannot form the majority under any circumstance? (no offense to any Turkish reader, I merely wanted to use a sizable minority that exists in Europe as a real life example) I obviously would not. But this analogy is very far off. A Palestinian state never existed. Germany is a sovereign country. And the Turkish immigrants here have not faced the history the European Jews have (which I think is not irrelevant in contrast to WhiteDog) There never was a state of Palestine. It belonged to the Ottomans, the Brits, the Egyptians and Jordan. I also agree with WhiteDog that the discussion won't go anywhere, Israel exists, it's not going away, and if dozens of historians can't agree on who is in the right we certainly won't.
I beg to differ. The Holocaust (while a tragedy) is completely irrelevant to any discussion about Israel/Palestine.
It is used as a way to generate sympathy for the Israelis and occasionally as an excuse to justify things they're not proud of (such as the terrorist Zionist tactics). But has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that a state was basically created on top of a group of people already living on a patch of land. THAT is the origin of the conflict. How THAT has been handled is the reason the two sides have their differences.
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On July 29 2014 07:14 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2014 07:11 EtherealBlade wrote:On July 29 2014 07:04 Nyxisto wrote:On July 29 2014 07:00 DinoMight wrote:On July 29 2014 06:55 EtherealBlade wrote:On July 29 2014 06:47 Nyxisto wrote:On July 29 2014 06:38 DinoMight wrote:On July 29 2014 06:32 Nyxisto wrote:On July 29 2014 06:25 ImFromPortugal wrote:On July 29 2014 06:05 Nyxisto wrote:
[quote]
It's war, but as you're blatantly ignoring the realities of modern warfare that are not exclusive to this conflict anyway it doesn't make much sense to continue talking to you. Israel has never been convicted of committing genocide nor is any sane person accusing them of it.
[quote]
So you're denying Israel's right to exist completely? It at least sounds like that's what you're implying. Bro i was hoping for you to reply and say something about the terrorism from the zionist not so long ago.. but not a single word.. could you please tell me your stand in this issue ? I'm not denying that some of the paramilitary groups used terrorism, but they were fighting for an independent state, after they had experienced the Holocaust in Europe. The Hamas is not a group a freedom fighters. They don't want peace, they want to kill every Jew they can find. It's in their charter, it's what everyone of their leaders has said. It's why they rejected the two state solution in 1947. On July 29 2014 06:31 EtherealBlade wrote:
This is ridiculous. They were not being exterminated on the European continent. Sweden, Spain, Switzerland, Turkey were all neutral countries. . No European country was willing to give refuge to a significant amount of Jews in Europe. That's precisely why 90% of them either migrated to Israel or the US. They rejected the two state solution because they had 100% of the land and someone told them hey, how about you give half of it to these people so they can form their own country. How do you think the US would respond if someone said "you know Tibetans are being opressed in China and they could really use their own country, why don't you give them Florida?" The answer would be "fuck off." You'd have said the same thing. If it's all about the law of the jungle what are we even discussing right now? On July 29 2014 06:42 DinoMight wrote:On July 29 2014 06:32 Nyxisto wrote:
I'm not denying that some of the paramilitary groups used terrorism, but they were fighting for an independent state, after they had experienced the Holocaust in Europe. So the holocaust is justification for Terrorism? Because from what I hear the Palestinians are also fighting for an independent state. They're not fighting for an Independent state, they're fighting for a Palestine without Israel. If all they wanted was an independent state all they'd need to do is to put their weapons down. Abu Marzouk, Hamas senior a few months ago: “We would have spared ourselves seven years of misery under the siege and two wars in 2008 and 2012 had we wanted to recognize Israel,” he said. Sourceedit: wrong guy The two blocks you've quoted perfectly answer each other. So why do you think the Palestinians don't accept peace? This. If I came to your house and said, "oy, this basement now belongs to this homeless family that really needs it..." how would you react? In the Palestinians eyes, their land was taken away from them. And now they're being driven into corners of it and forced to live in pitiful conditions. What do you expect them to do? Put down their guns and hope that Israel reverses a 65 year trend of abusing them? If my house was like ten thousand square miles big and owned by the British, I'd say "sure have some of it" On July 29 2014 06:55 EtherealBlade wrote:On July 29 2014 06:47 Nyxisto wrote:On July 29 2014 06:38 DinoMight wrote:On July 29 2014 06:32 Nyxisto wrote:On July 29 2014 06:25 ImFromPortugal wrote:On July 29 2014 06:05 Nyxisto wrote:On July 29 2014 06:01 EtherealBlade wrote:
So is this self defense? Or genocide? It's war, but as you're blatantly ignoring the realities of modern warfare that are not exclusive to this conflict anyway it doesn't make much sense to continue talking to you. Israel has never been convicted of committing genocide nor is any sane person accusing them of it. On July 29 2014 05:51 DinoMight wrote:
[quote]
20.7% Arabs to 75.3% Jews in a country that is 65 years old on land that was previously near 100% Arabs (including Jewish arabs).
So you're denying Israel's right to exist completely? It at least sounds like that's what you're implying. Bro i was hoping for you to reply and say something about the terrorism from the zionist not so long ago.. but not a single word.. could you please tell me your stand in this issue ? I'm not denying that some of the paramilitary groups used terrorism, but they were fighting for an independent state, after they had experienced the Holocaust in Europe. The Hamas is not a group a freedom fighters. They don't want peace, they want to kill every Jew they can find. It's in their charter, it's what everyone of their leaders has said. It's why they rejected the two state solution in 1947. On July 29 2014 06:31 EtherealBlade wrote:
This is ridiculous. They were not being exterminated on the European continent. Sweden, Spain, Switzerland, Turkey were all neutral countries. . No European country was willing to give refuge to a significant amount of Jews in Europe. That's precisely why 90% of them either migrated to Israel or the US. They rejected the two state solution because they had 100% of the land and someone told them hey, how about you give half of it to these people so they can form their own country. How do you think the US would respond if someone said "you know Tibetans are being opressed in China and they could really use their own country, why don't you give them Florida?" The answer would be "fuck off." You'd have said the same thing. If it's all about the law of the jungle what are we even discussing right now? On July 29 2014 06:42 DinoMight wrote:On July 29 2014 06:32 Nyxisto wrote:
I'm not denying that some of the paramilitary groups used terrorism, but they were fighting for an independent state, after they had experienced the Holocaust in Europe. So the holocaust is justification for Terrorism? Because from what I hear the Palestinians are also fighting for an independent state. They're not fighting for an Independent state, they're fighting for a Palestine without Israel. If all they wanted was an independent state all they'd need to do is to put their weapons down. Abu Marzouk, Hamas senior a few months ago: “We would have spared ourselves seven years of misery under the siege and two wars in 2008 and 2012 had we wanted to recognize Israel,” he said. Sourceedit: wrong guy The two blocks you've quoted perfectly answer each other. So why do you think the Palestinians don't accept peace? There are Palestinians that would accept peace, but the Hamas certainly does not, they won't fight until every Israeli is gone. Let's put this into perspective then, there are 3 million Turkish living in Germany. One day they decide to carve out roughly one fourth of Germany because they desire an independent state. They start to bomb hotels, assassinate people and form armies. Do you give away one fourth of Germany, including the city you live in, to this new state, where it's declared that Germans cannot form the majority under any circumstance? (no offense to any Turkish reader, I merely wanted to use a sizable minority that exists in Europe as a real life example) I obviously would not. But this analogy is very far off. A Palestinian state never existed. Germany is a sovereign country. And the Turkish immigrants here have not faced the history the European Jews have (which I think is not irrelevant in contrast to WhiteDog) There never was a state of Palestine. It belonged to the Ottomans, the Brits, the Egyptians and Jordan. I also agree with WhiteDog that the discussion won't go anywhere, Israel exists, it's not going away, and if dozens of historians can't agree on who is in the right we certainly won't. The difference I see between the Hamas and Israel today is that Israel genuinely wants to defend its country. They may do that in a very harsh way but in the end they want peace. The Hamas just wants to do what the Arabic World already wanted 60 years ago, destroy Israel.
It's nice to see you emphasize a dehumanizing argument that I've previously only seen from my conservative zionist friends. The 'palestine never existed' argument denies human beings the legitimacy of their rights to land and property ownership through a semantics argument. That is racist, zionist bullshit. If you really think that the Palestinian people had any less claim to the land they owned and lived on because they were labelled differently based on which empires they were part of then you were clearly born in the wrong era of German history.
The difference I see between Hamas and Israel today is that Israel has consistently shown that it genuinely wants to drive Palestians out of the west bank until it is primarily controlled by jewish settlers and keep the Gazans quiet through relentless punitive subjugation. Hamas fights for the right to exist, a right which you and Israel deny.
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On July 29 2014 07:37 Jormundr wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2014 07:14 Nyxisto wrote:On July 29 2014 07:11 EtherealBlade wrote:On July 29 2014 07:04 Nyxisto wrote:On July 29 2014 07:00 DinoMight wrote:On July 29 2014 06:55 EtherealBlade wrote:On July 29 2014 06:47 Nyxisto wrote:On July 29 2014 06:38 DinoMight wrote:On July 29 2014 06:32 Nyxisto wrote:On July 29 2014 06:25 ImFromPortugal wrote:
[quote]
Bro i was hoping for you to reply and say something about the terrorism from the zionist not so long ago.. but not a single word.. could you please tell me your stand in this issue ? I'm not denying that some of the paramilitary groups used terrorism, but they were fighting for an independent state, after they had experienced the Holocaust in Europe. The Hamas is not a group a freedom fighters. They don't want peace, they want to kill every Jew they can find. It's in their charter, it's what everyone of their leaders has said. It's why they rejected the two state solution in 1947. On July 29 2014 06:31 EtherealBlade wrote:
This is ridiculous. They were not being exterminated on the European continent. Sweden, Spain, Switzerland, Turkey were all neutral countries. . No European country was willing to give refuge to a significant amount of Jews in Europe. That's precisely why 90% of them either migrated to Israel or the US. They rejected the two state solution because they had 100% of the land and someone told them hey, how about you give half of it to these people so they can form their own country. How do you think the US would respond if someone said "you know Tibetans are being opressed in China and they could really use their own country, why don't you give them Florida?" The answer would be "fuck off." You'd have said the same thing. If it's all about the law of the jungle what are we even discussing right now? On July 29 2014 06:42 DinoMight wrote:On July 29 2014 06:32 Nyxisto wrote:
I'm not denying that some of the paramilitary groups used terrorism, but they were fighting for an independent state, after they had experienced the Holocaust in Europe. So the holocaust is justification for Terrorism? Because from what I hear the Palestinians are also fighting for an independent state. They're not fighting for an Independent state, they're fighting for a Palestine without Israel. If all they wanted was an independent state all they'd need to do is to put their weapons down. Abu Marzouk, Hamas senior a few months ago: “We would have spared ourselves seven years of misery under the siege and two wars in 2008 and 2012 had we wanted to recognize Israel,” he said. Sourceedit: wrong guy The two blocks you've quoted perfectly answer each other. So why do you think the Palestinians don't accept peace? This. If I came to your house and said, "oy, this basement now belongs to this homeless family that really needs it..." how would you react? In the Palestinians eyes, their land was taken away from them. And now they're being driven into corners of it and forced to live in pitiful conditions. What do you expect them to do? Put down their guns and hope that Israel reverses a 65 year trend of abusing them? If my house was like ten thousand square miles big and owned by the British, I'd say "sure have some of it" On July 29 2014 06:55 EtherealBlade wrote:On July 29 2014 06:47 Nyxisto wrote:On July 29 2014 06:38 DinoMight wrote:On July 29 2014 06:32 Nyxisto wrote:On July 29 2014 06:25 ImFromPortugal wrote:On July 29 2014 06:05 Nyxisto wrote:
[quote]
It's war, but as you're blatantly ignoring the realities of modern warfare that are not exclusive to this conflict anyway it doesn't make much sense to continue talking to you. Israel has never been convicted of committing genocide nor is any sane person accusing them of it.
[quote]
So you're denying Israel's right to exist completely? It at least sounds like that's what you're implying. Bro i was hoping for you to reply and say something about the terrorism from the zionist not so long ago.. but not a single word.. could you please tell me your stand in this issue ? I'm not denying that some of the paramilitary groups used terrorism, but they were fighting for an independent state, after they had experienced the Holocaust in Europe. The Hamas is not a group a freedom fighters. They don't want peace, they want to kill every Jew they can find. It's in their charter, it's what everyone of their leaders has said. It's why they rejected the two state solution in 1947. On July 29 2014 06:31 EtherealBlade wrote:
This is ridiculous. They were not being exterminated on the European continent. Sweden, Spain, Switzerland, Turkey were all neutral countries. . No European country was willing to give refuge to a significant amount of Jews in Europe. That's precisely why 90% of them either migrated to Israel or the US. They rejected the two state solution because they had 100% of the land and someone told them hey, how about you give half of it to these people so they can form their own country. How do you think the US would respond if someone said "you know Tibetans are being opressed in China and they could really use their own country, why don't you give them Florida?" The answer would be "fuck off." You'd have said the same thing. If it's all about the law of the jungle what are we even discussing right now? On July 29 2014 06:42 DinoMight wrote:On July 29 2014 06:32 Nyxisto wrote:
I'm not denying that some of the paramilitary groups used terrorism, but they were fighting for an independent state, after they had experienced the Holocaust in Europe. So the holocaust is justification for Terrorism? Because from what I hear the Palestinians are also fighting for an independent state. They're not fighting for an Independent state, they're fighting for a Palestine without Israel. If all they wanted was an independent state all they'd need to do is to put their weapons down. Abu Marzouk, Hamas senior a few months ago: “We would have spared ourselves seven years of misery under the siege and two wars in 2008 and 2012 had we wanted to recognize Israel,” he said. Sourceedit: wrong guy The two blocks you've quoted perfectly answer each other. So why do you think the Palestinians don't accept peace? There are Palestinians that would accept peace, but the Hamas certainly does not, they won't fight until every Israeli is gone. Let's put this into perspective then, there are 3 million Turkish living in Germany. One day they decide to carve out roughly one fourth of Germany because they desire an independent state. They start to bomb hotels, assassinate people and form armies. Do you give away one fourth of Germany, including the city you live in, to this new state, where it's declared that Germans cannot form the majority under any circumstance? (no offense to any Turkish reader, I merely wanted to use a sizable minority that exists in Europe as a real life example) I obviously would not. But this analogy is very far off. A Palestinian state never existed. Germany is a sovereign country. And the Turkish immigrants here have not faced the history the European Jews have (which I think is not irrelevant in contrast to WhiteDog) There never was a state of Palestine. It belonged to the Ottomans, the Brits, the Egyptians and Jordan. I also agree with WhiteDog that the discussion won't go anywhere, Israel exists, it's not going away, and if dozens of historians can't agree on who is in the right we certainly won't. The difference I see between the Hamas and Israel today is that Israel genuinely wants to defend its country. They may do that in a very harsh way but in the end they want peace. The Hamas just wants to do what the Arabic World already wanted 60 years ago, destroy Israel. Hamas fights for the right to exist, a right which you and Israel deny.
terrorist organizations oppressing the people they nominally claim they represent have no right to exist.
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On July 29 2014 07:52 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2014 07:37 Jormundr wrote:On July 29 2014 07:14 Nyxisto wrote:On July 29 2014 07:11 EtherealBlade wrote:On July 29 2014 07:04 Nyxisto wrote:On July 29 2014 07:00 DinoMight wrote:On July 29 2014 06:55 EtherealBlade wrote:On July 29 2014 06:47 Nyxisto wrote:On July 29 2014 06:38 DinoMight wrote:On July 29 2014 06:32 Nyxisto wrote:
[quote]
I'm not denying that some of the paramilitary groups used terrorism, but they were fighting for an independent state, after they had experienced the Holocaust in Europe. The Hamas is not a group a freedom fighters. They don't want peace, they want to kill every Jew they can find. It's in their charter, it's what everyone of their leaders has said. It's why they rejected the two state solution in 1947.
[quote]
No European country was willing to give refuge to a significant amount of Jews in Europe. That's precisely why 90% of them either migrated to Israel or the US. They rejected the two state solution because they had 100% of the land and someone told them hey, how about you give half of it to these people so they can form their own country. How do you think the US would respond if someone said "you know Tibetans are being opressed in China and they could really use their own country, why don't you give them Florida?" The answer would be "fuck off." You'd have said the same thing. If it's all about the law of the jungle what are we even discussing right now? On July 29 2014 06:42 DinoMight wrote:On July 29 2014 06:32 Nyxisto wrote:
I'm not denying that some of the paramilitary groups used terrorism, but they were fighting for an independent state, after they had experienced the Holocaust in Europe. So the holocaust is justification for Terrorism? Because from what I hear the Palestinians are also fighting for an independent state. They're not fighting for an Independent state, they're fighting for a Palestine without Israel. If all they wanted was an independent state all they'd need to do is to put their weapons down. Abu Marzouk, Hamas senior a few months ago: “We would have spared ourselves seven years of misery under the siege and two wars in 2008 and 2012 had we wanted to recognize Israel,” he said. Sourceedit: wrong guy The two blocks you've quoted perfectly answer each other. So why do you think the Palestinians don't accept peace? This. If I came to your house and said, "oy, this basement now belongs to this homeless family that really needs it..." how would you react? In the Palestinians eyes, their land was taken away from them. And now they're being driven into corners of it and forced to live in pitiful conditions. What do you expect them to do? Put down their guns and hope that Israel reverses a 65 year trend of abusing them? If my house was like ten thousand square miles big and owned by the British, I'd say "sure have some of it" On July 29 2014 06:55 EtherealBlade wrote:On July 29 2014 06:47 Nyxisto wrote:On July 29 2014 06:38 DinoMight wrote:On July 29 2014 06:32 Nyxisto wrote:On July 29 2014 06:25 ImFromPortugal wrote:
[quote]
Bro i was hoping for you to reply and say something about the terrorism from the zionist not so long ago.. but not a single word.. could you please tell me your stand in this issue ? I'm not denying that some of the paramilitary groups used terrorism, but they were fighting for an independent state, after they had experienced the Holocaust in Europe. The Hamas is not a group a freedom fighters. They don't want peace, they want to kill every Jew they can find. It's in their charter, it's what everyone of their leaders has said. It's why they rejected the two state solution in 1947. On July 29 2014 06:31 EtherealBlade wrote:
This is ridiculous. They were not being exterminated on the European continent. Sweden, Spain, Switzerland, Turkey were all neutral countries. . No European country was willing to give refuge to a significant amount of Jews in Europe. That's precisely why 90% of them either migrated to Israel or the US. They rejected the two state solution because they had 100% of the land and someone told them hey, how about you give half of it to these people so they can form their own country. How do you think the US would respond if someone said "you know Tibetans are being opressed in China and they could really use their own country, why don't you give them Florida?" The answer would be "fuck off." You'd have said the same thing. If it's all about the law of the jungle what are we even discussing right now? On July 29 2014 06:42 DinoMight wrote:On July 29 2014 06:32 Nyxisto wrote:
I'm not denying that some of the paramilitary groups used terrorism, but they were fighting for an independent state, after they had experienced the Holocaust in Europe. So the holocaust is justification for Terrorism? Because from what I hear the Palestinians are also fighting for an independent state. They're not fighting for an Independent state, they're fighting for a Palestine without Israel. If all they wanted was an independent state all they'd need to do is to put their weapons down. Abu Marzouk, Hamas senior a few months ago: “We would have spared ourselves seven years of misery under the siege and two wars in 2008 and 2012 had we wanted to recognize Israel,” he said. Sourceedit: wrong guy The two blocks you've quoted perfectly answer each other. So why do you think the Palestinians don't accept peace? There are Palestinians that would accept peace, but the Hamas certainly does not, they won't fight until every Israeli is gone. Let's put this into perspective then, there are 3 million Turkish living in Germany. One day they decide to carve out roughly one fourth of Germany because they desire an independent state. They start to bomb hotels, assassinate people and form armies. Do you give away one fourth of Germany, including the city you live in, to this new state, where it's declared that Germans cannot form the majority under any circumstance? (no offense to any Turkish reader, I merely wanted to use a sizable minority that exists in Europe as a real life example) I obviously would not. But this analogy is very far off. A Palestinian state never existed. Germany is a sovereign country. And the Turkish immigrants here have not faced the history the European Jews have (which I think is not irrelevant in contrast to WhiteDog) There never was a state of Palestine. It belonged to the Ottomans, the Brits, the Egyptians and Jordan. I also agree with WhiteDog that the discussion won't go anywhere, Israel exists, it's not going away, and if dozens of historians can't agree on who is in the right we certainly won't. The difference I see between the Hamas and Israel today is that Israel genuinely wants to defend its country. They may do that in a very harsh way but in the end they want peace. The Hamas just wants to do what the Arabic World already wanted 60 years ago, destroy Israel. Hamas fights for the right to exist, a right which you and Israel deny. terrorist organizations oppressing the people they nominally claim they represent have no right to exist.
Would it be different if they didn't "oppress the people they nominally claim to represent" or i'm missing something here?
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On July 29 2014 07:54 ImFromPortugal wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2014 07:52 Sub40APM wrote:On July 29 2014 07:37 Jormundr wrote:On July 29 2014 07:14 Nyxisto wrote:On July 29 2014 07:11 EtherealBlade wrote:On July 29 2014 07:04 Nyxisto wrote:On July 29 2014 07:00 DinoMight wrote:On July 29 2014 06:55 EtherealBlade wrote:On July 29 2014 06:47 Nyxisto wrote:On July 29 2014 06:38 DinoMight wrote:
[quote]
They rejected the two state solution because they had 100% of the land and someone told them hey, how about you give half of it to these people so they can form their own country. How do you think the US would respond if someone said "you know Tibetans are being opressed in China and they could really use their own country, why don't you give them Florida?"
The answer would be "fuck off." You'd have said the same thing.
If it's all about the law of the jungle what are we even discussing right now? On July 29 2014 06:42 DinoMight wrote:
[quote]
So the holocaust is justification for Terrorism? Because from what I hear the Palestinians are also fighting for an independent state.
They're not fighting for an Independent state, they're fighting for a Palestine without Israel. If all they wanted was an independent state all they'd need to do is to put their weapons down. Abu Marzouk, Hamas senior a few months ago: “We would have spared ourselves seven years of misery under the siege and two wars in 2008 and 2012 had we wanted to recognize Israel,” he said. Sourceedit: wrong guy The two blocks you've quoted perfectly answer each other. So why do you think the Palestinians don't accept peace? This. If I came to your house and said, "oy, this basement now belongs to this homeless family that really needs it..." how would you react? In the Palestinians eyes, their land was taken away from them. And now they're being driven into corners of it and forced to live in pitiful conditions. What do you expect them to do? Put down their guns and hope that Israel reverses a 65 year trend of abusing them? If my house was like ten thousand square miles big and owned by the British, I'd say "sure have some of it" On July 29 2014 06:55 EtherealBlade wrote:On July 29 2014 06:47 Nyxisto wrote:On July 29 2014 06:38 DinoMight wrote:On July 29 2014 06:32 Nyxisto wrote:
[quote]
I'm not denying that some of the paramilitary groups used terrorism, but they were fighting for an independent state, after they had experienced the Holocaust in Europe. The Hamas is not a group a freedom fighters. They don't want peace, they want to kill every Jew they can find. It's in their charter, it's what everyone of their leaders has said. It's why they rejected the two state solution in 1947.
[quote]
No European country was willing to give refuge to a significant amount of Jews in Europe. That's precisely why 90% of them either migrated to Israel or the US. They rejected the two state solution because they had 100% of the land and someone told them hey, how about you give half of it to these people so they can form their own country. How do you think the US would respond if someone said "you know Tibetans are being opressed in China and they could really use their own country, why don't you give them Florida?" The answer would be "fuck off." You'd have said the same thing. If it's all about the law of the jungle what are we even discussing right now? On July 29 2014 06:42 DinoMight wrote:On July 29 2014 06:32 Nyxisto wrote:
I'm not denying that some of the paramilitary groups used terrorism, but they were fighting for an independent state, after they had experienced the Holocaust in Europe. So the holocaust is justification for Terrorism? Because from what I hear the Palestinians are also fighting for an independent state. They're not fighting for an Independent state, they're fighting for a Palestine without Israel. If all they wanted was an independent state all they'd need to do is to put their weapons down. Abu Marzouk, Hamas senior a few months ago: “We would have spared ourselves seven years of misery under the siege and two wars in 2008 and 2012 had we wanted to recognize Israel,” he said. Sourceedit: wrong guy The two blocks you've quoted perfectly answer each other. So why do you think the Palestinians don't accept peace? There are Palestinians that would accept peace, but the Hamas certainly does not, they won't fight until every Israeli is gone. Let's put this into perspective then, there are 3 million Turkish living in Germany. One day they decide to carve out roughly one fourth of Germany because they desire an independent state. They start to bomb hotels, assassinate people and form armies. Do you give away one fourth of Germany, including the city you live in, to this new state, where it's declared that Germans cannot form the majority under any circumstance? (no offense to any Turkish reader, I merely wanted to use a sizable minority that exists in Europe as a real life example) I obviously would not. But this analogy is very far off. A Palestinian state never existed. Germany is a sovereign country. And the Turkish immigrants here have not faced the history the European Jews have (which I think is not irrelevant in contrast to WhiteDog) There never was a state of Palestine. It belonged to the Ottomans, the Brits, the Egyptians and Jordan. I also agree with WhiteDog that the discussion won't go anywhere, Israel exists, it's not going away, and if dozens of historians can't agree on who is in the right we certainly won't. The difference I see between the Hamas and Israel today is that Israel genuinely wants to defend its country. They may do that in a very harsh way but in the end they want peace. The Hamas just wants to do what the Arabic World already wanted 60 years ago, destroy Israel. Hamas fights for the right to exist, a right which you and Israel deny. terrorist organizations oppressing the people they nominally claim they represent have no right to exist. Would it be different if they didn't "oppress the people they nominally claim to represent" or i'm missing something here?
It would make them more morally defensible than they are now.
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On July 29 2014 07:52 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2014 07:37 Jormundr wrote:On July 29 2014 07:14 Nyxisto wrote:On July 29 2014 07:11 EtherealBlade wrote:On July 29 2014 07:04 Nyxisto wrote:On July 29 2014 07:00 DinoMight wrote:On July 29 2014 06:55 EtherealBlade wrote:On July 29 2014 06:47 Nyxisto wrote:On July 29 2014 06:38 DinoMight wrote:On July 29 2014 06:32 Nyxisto wrote:
[quote]
I'm not denying that some of the paramilitary groups used terrorism, but they were fighting for an independent state, after they had experienced the Holocaust in Europe. The Hamas is not a group a freedom fighters. They don't want peace, they want to kill every Jew they can find. It's in their charter, it's what everyone of their leaders has said. It's why they rejected the two state solution in 1947.
[quote]
No European country was willing to give refuge to a significant amount of Jews in Europe. That's precisely why 90% of them either migrated to Israel or the US. They rejected the two state solution because they had 100% of the land and someone told them hey, how about you give half of it to these people so they can form their own country. How do you think the US would respond if someone said "you know Tibetans are being opressed in China and they could really use their own country, why don't you give them Florida?" The answer would be "fuck off." You'd have said the same thing. If it's all about the law of the jungle what are we even discussing right now? On July 29 2014 06:42 DinoMight wrote:On July 29 2014 06:32 Nyxisto wrote:
I'm not denying that some of the paramilitary groups used terrorism, but they were fighting for an independent state, after they had experienced the Holocaust in Europe. So the holocaust is justification for Terrorism? Because from what I hear the Palestinians are also fighting for an independent state. They're not fighting for an Independent state, they're fighting for a Palestine without Israel. If all they wanted was an independent state all they'd need to do is to put their weapons down. Abu Marzouk, Hamas senior a few months ago: “We would have spared ourselves seven years of misery under the siege and two wars in 2008 and 2012 had we wanted to recognize Israel,” he said. Sourceedit: wrong guy The two blocks you've quoted perfectly answer each other. So why do you think the Palestinians don't accept peace? This. If I came to your house and said, "oy, this basement now belongs to this homeless family that really needs it..." how would you react? In the Palestinians eyes, their land was taken away from them. And now they're being driven into corners of it and forced to live in pitiful conditions. What do you expect them to do? Put down their guns and hope that Israel reverses a 65 year trend of abusing them? If my house was like ten thousand square miles big and owned by the British, I'd say "sure have some of it" On July 29 2014 06:55 EtherealBlade wrote:On July 29 2014 06:47 Nyxisto wrote:On July 29 2014 06:38 DinoMight wrote:On July 29 2014 06:32 Nyxisto wrote:On July 29 2014 06:25 ImFromPortugal wrote:
[quote]
Bro i was hoping for you to reply and say something about the terrorism from the zionist not so long ago.. but not a single word.. could you please tell me your stand in this issue ? I'm not denying that some of the paramilitary groups used terrorism, but they were fighting for an independent state, after they had experienced the Holocaust in Europe. The Hamas is not a group a freedom fighters. They don't want peace, they want to kill every Jew they can find. It's in their charter, it's what everyone of their leaders has said. It's why they rejected the two state solution in 1947. On July 29 2014 06:31 EtherealBlade wrote:
This is ridiculous. They were not being exterminated on the European continent. Sweden, Spain, Switzerland, Turkey were all neutral countries. . No European country was willing to give refuge to a significant amount of Jews in Europe. That's precisely why 90% of them either migrated to Israel or the US. They rejected the two state solution because they had 100% of the land and someone told them hey, how about you give half of it to these people so they can form their own country. How do you think the US would respond if someone said "you know Tibetans are being opressed in China and they could really use their own country, why don't you give them Florida?" The answer would be "fuck off." You'd have said the same thing. If it's all about the law of the jungle what are we even discussing right now? On July 29 2014 06:42 DinoMight wrote:On July 29 2014 06:32 Nyxisto wrote:
I'm not denying that some of the paramilitary groups used terrorism, but they were fighting for an independent state, after they had experienced the Holocaust in Europe. So the holocaust is justification for Terrorism? Because from what I hear the Palestinians are also fighting for an independent state. They're not fighting for an Independent state, they're fighting for a Palestine without Israel. If all they wanted was an independent state all they'd need to do is to put their weapons down. Abu Marzouk, Hamas senior a few months ago: “We would have spared ourselves seven years of misery under the siege and two wars in 2008 and 2012 had we wanted to recognize Israel,” he said. Sourceedit: wrong guy The two blocks you've quoted perfectly answer each other. So why do you think the Palestinians don't accept peace? There are Palestinians that would accept peace, but the Hamas certainly does not, they won't fight until every Israeli is gone. Let's put this into perspective then, there are 3 million Turkish living in Germany. One day they decide to carve out roughly one fourth of Germany because they desire an independent state. They start to bomb hotels, assassinate people and form armies. Do you give away one fourth of Germany, including the city you live in, to this new state, where it's declared that Germans cannot form the majority under any circumstance? (no offense to any Turkish reader, I merely wanted to use a sizable minority that exists in Europe as a real life example) I obviously would not. But this analogy is very far off. A Palestinian state never existed. Germany is a sovereign country. And the Turkish immigrants here have not faced the history the European Jews have (which I think is not irrelevant in contrast to WhiteDog) There never was a state of Palestine. It belonged to the Ottomans, the Brits, the Egyptians and Jordan. I also agree with WhiteDog that the discussion won't go anywhere, Israel exists, it's not going away, and if dozens of historians can't agree on who is in the right we certainly won't. The difference I see between the Hamas and Israel today is that Israel genuinely wants to defend its country. They may do that in a very harsh way but in the end they want peace. The Hamas just wants to do what the Arabic World already wanted 60 years ago, destroy Israel. Hamas fights for the right to exist, a right which you and Israel deny. terrorist organizations oppressing the people they nominally claim they represent have no right to exist.
This could be taken as a broad critique of governments in general, do specify.
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On July 29 2014 07:57 Sub40APM wrote:
It would make them more morally defensible than they are now.
That is exactly the argument all the defenders of Israel are giving. And it's bad. Hamas are terrorists and warmongers. And in your eyes that gives Israel the right to just continue being warmongers as well. It does not.
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On July 29 2014 08:02 Broetchenholer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2014 07:57 Sub40APM wrote:
It would make them more morally defensible than they are now. That is exactly the argument all the defenders of Israel are giving. And it's bad. Hamas are terrorists and warmongers. And in your eyes that gives Israel the right to just continue being warmongers as well. It is not.
It kinda does. I don't know of any country in history that would tolerate terrorists and warmongers at their border.
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I don't either. But i know a lot of countries that would try to use diplomatic solutions first, if they don't help, defend themselves with as much restraint as possible, and then try diplomatic solutions again. Like for instance, germany. When RAF was a perceived threat to our stability, we did not fly to their camps in arabic states and bombed them and any civilian there to ashes. Obviously the two threats cannot be compared, but if you check the deaths caused by Hamas rockets in the last 2 years, they are not very far off compared to RAF in their best years 
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On July 29 2014 08:07 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2014 08:02 Broetchenholer wrote:On July 29 2014 07:57 Sub40APM wrote:
It would make them more morally defensible than they are now. That is exactly the argument all the defenders of Israel are giving. And it's bad. Hamas are terrorists and warmongers. And in your eyes that gives Israel the right to just continue being warmongers as well. It is not. It kinda does. I don't know of any country in history that would tolerate terrorists and warmongers at their border.
Then you're arguing that Hamas and Israel are both justified because they both think they have been unjustly victimized?
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On July 29 2014 04:26 Nyxisto wrote:
@kwizach:
You specifically asked me to "adress the broader argument", and given the graph you posted the broader argument is relatively simple. Israel's big military operations have always been preceded by a very high amount of attacks coming from Gaza. Sure, there always were small skirmishes, being it drone attacks by Israel to take out some military leader or new tunnels by the Hamas, but in the end the rocket attacks on Israel were always way lower after Israel conducted a big operation than before,and that's what their goal was.
I don't understand the ceasefire argument. Yes during the ceasefires not much was happening. That's why it's called a ceasfire. Needless to say the Hamas broke almost all of them by themselves.
You clearly have difficulty reading the graph. The two high spikes in number of rocket fire followed the use of violence by Israel. THEY DID NOT PRECEDE IT. The first high spike was preceded by the Nov. 4/5 Israeli strikes in 2008. The second high spike was preceded by the killing of Jaabari by Israel. The smaller spikes, which are not highlighted in the graph, all represent mutual use of violence by Israel and Hamas. Like I repeatedly told you, the significant increases in rocket launched followed and then accompanied the use of violence by Israel. Rockets stopped being fired not because Israel had been conducting military operations, since rockets continue to be launched during military operations (in fact, MORE rockets tend to be launched during military operations BECAUSE Israel is using violence) - rockets stopped being fired when ceasefires were agreed. As I said, you repress violence through negotiations, NOT through military violence. It's not the "big operations" which reduced the number of rockets being fired - this number INCREASED when the big operations were launched, UNTIL negotiated agreements were made. In any case, all of this is not to be discussed for itself but in relation to the point that it IS possible to diminish the recourse to violence by Hamas (I am not in any way defending Hamas).
In that respect, it is amazing to me that you are still refusing to address the broader arguments I presented you with, so I'm going to copy and paste my two posts since apparently linking to them is not enough.
1. Israel and Abbas/Fatah (who's largely responsible for the continuation of the Israelo-Palestinian conflict?)
The reason for the discontinuation of the talks was not "the formation of the unity government". The latter was the final nail in the coffin of the negotiations, but they were already going absolutely nowhere because of Israel's refusal to outline the borders it wants for its state, and Palestinians had given up when they announced the unity government a few days before the announced end of the talks. Abbas conceded to a LOT of Israeli demands, including a border outline supported by the Americans that would have included, on Israel's side, 80 percent of the Israeli settlers' population. Israel did not even agree to outline any border, and proceeded with the announcement of new settlements during the talks, which completely discouraged the Palestinians. This is essentially what has been going on for years - Israeli governments have had in front of them in the person of Abbas a leader willing to negotiate and go quite far in terms of compromising, yet they have simply not shown themselves to be ready to meet him half-way. If you actually want to inform yourself on the topic, I suggest you read this article detailing some of the contents of the recent negotiations.
2. Israel and Hamas (How do you effectively insure that Hamas poses less of a threat to Israeli lives?)
"I'd like to add that there being a unity government should not be a reason for Israel to stop negotiating. In fact, Israel had been complaining for years that it had no negotiating partner with regards to Gaza, and it would be in their interest to indirectly support the more pragmatic wing of Hamas. It is essentially an opportunity to try to bring them to a more moderate stance, which is exactly what Israel should wish for instead of reinforcing its extremists through military attacks."
"Moving forward for Israel implies 1) legitimizing and boosting Fatah's support among the population by negotiating in good faith with them, and 2) indirectly supporting Hamas' pragmatic wing by not bombing the hell out of Gaza. Israel is doing neither."
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On July 29 2014 09:03 kwizach wrote:"Moving forward for Israel implies 1) legitimizing and boosting Fatah's support among the population by negotiating in good faith with them and 2) indirectly supporting Hamas' pragmatic wing by not bombing the hell out of Gaza. Israel is doing neither."
Of course they aren't. The status quo is in Israel's favor. Why would they want to negotiate at all?
They hide behind the facade of "we are defending ourselves" but really they have no interest in peace at all.
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On July 29 2014 00:15 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2014 22:49 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On July 28 2014 22:24 ImFromPortugal wrote:On July 28 2014 18:31 Noam wrote:They were presumed alive, and no one knew anything until their bodies were found. There was a recording where one of the boys called the police, and there was a sound which was later thought to be a single gunshot (I am sure no one can even say that for certain). Other than that there was no actual evidence suggesting they are dead. The fact that Hamas did not officially kidnap them does not change the turn of events in the slightest, especially when hamas admits to ATTEMPTING to kidnap civilians all the time. Israel is at war with Hamas because Hamas wants to destroy Israel. Limiting this conflict to the most recent reason that increased the violence is shortsighted. I even find it funny when Israel supporters scream "they[Hamas] started it!". This started in 1947 when the UN gave jews apart of this land and the arabs decided to remove us by force. Anyway, here's the turn of recent events as far as I can remember. Don't take it as evidence (not that I would expect a self declared anti-semite to believe something an Israeli jew says... I read your comment history, you are definitely not a troll, just another anti-semite, but at least you admit to it and take pride in it!): - 3 Israeli jewish boys kidnapped near the West Bank.
- Israeli army / police investigate the kidnappings and try to find them. During this investigation known terrorists in the west bank are arrested and questioned.
- Hamas increases rocket fire from Gaza to Israel (operative word: INCREASES. Rockets have been fired from Gaza nonstop for years.)
- Israeli arab muslim child gets kidnapped. Preliminary evidence shows he was taken into a car by force. Police investigation finds (about a week later) that he was killed by a Israeli jewish extremists. (effectively these are criminals who will spend the rest of their lives in jail, there is no "organization" behind this)
- From this point on the cycle of Hamas fires more and more rockets from Gaza, Israel strikes in Gaza from the air get more intense
- Hamas shows its hand by sending in forces from Gaza through tunnels. Israel goes into gaza by land because air strikes don't do much against tunnels.
And here we are now, where Israel is under a threat it cannot ignore (intelligence suggests Hamas has over 50 tunnels from Gaza to Israel, and planned to use them in an organized surprise ground attack on civilians). And Hamas is exactly where it wants to be. Their leaders are enjoying the good life in Qatar, and the civilians who elected them are dying to protect them. This started when the zionist terrorists started bombing hotels and killing people long before the arabs. Fairly amusing to see how he conveniently forgot this part about the history. It's the reason for this whole clusterfuck in the first place. I don't really like Palestine at all, but I don't know, you can't kickoff everything with terrorism, ethnic cleansing, deportation, and now apartheid and land-grabbing, and expect the people to be happy about it. I guess it's easier to justify and stomach when you consider them inherently inferior to yourself. This attitude and mindset is certainly nothing novel. It's existed a million times over historically, even in US history of all places (slavery being a prime example), but in this century, one would expect people to be a bit more civilized. Even the South African leaders eventually learned that having humans in a position like dogs due to racial policy is pretty bad. Can you please provide some proof if you start acussing a country of terrorism, ethnic cleansing, and being an apartheid regime? Has some international court of law actually found Israel guilty of those crimes?
Israel was founded by violence and terrorism against the British, Muslims, and apparently even Jews who weren't down with Zionism. You don't know its history? You think all the Palestinians just vanished from where all the current Israelis live? Lol. They were removed by force. It's simple history dude. Some specifics like the King David Hotel Bombing are some of the most famous events of the 20th century. An international court isn't going to look at something from 65 years ago, when everyone was still feeling sorry about the Holocaust? No, better question: when has an international court done anything to a country that wasn't conquered by a bunch of countries? Lol! Sorry. In any case, for reference, the Turks killed well over a million Greek, Armenian, and Assyrian Christians and there was no international court that did anything or anyone who did anything... so.... I'm sorry that international courts don't really do anything 
It would behoove you to also read DinoMight's and Jormundr's comments, copied below.
+ Show Spoiler +On July 29 2014 07:22 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2014 07:14 Nyxisto wrote:On July 29 2014 07:11 EtherealBlade wrote:On July 29 2014 07:04 Nyxisto wrote:On July 29 2014 07:00 DinoMight wrote:On July 29 2014 06:55 EtherealBlade wrote:On July 29 2014 06:47 Nyxisto wrote:On July 29 2014 06:38 DinoMight wrote:On July 29 2014 06:32 Nyxisto wrote:On July 29 2014 06:25 ImFromPortugal wrote:
[quote]
Bro i was hoping for you to reply and say something about the terrorism from the zionist not so long ago.. but not a single word.. could you please tell me your stand in this issue ? I'm not denying that some of the paramilitary groups used terrorism, but they were fighting for an independent state, after they had experienced the Holocaust in Europe. The Hamas is not a group a freedom fighters. They don't want peace, they want to kill every Jew they can find. It's in their charter, it's what everyone of their leaders has said. It's why they rejected the two state solution in 1947. On July 29 2014 06:31 EtherealBlade wrote:
This is ridiculous. They were not being exterminated on the European continent. Sweden, Spain, Switzerland, Turkey were all neutral countries. . No European country was willing to give refuge to a significant amount of Jews in Europe. That's precisely why 90% of them either migrated to Israel or the US. They rejected the two state solution because they had 100% of the land and someone told them hey, how about you give half of it to these people so they can form their own country. How do you think the US would respond if someone said "you know Tibetans are being opressed in China and they could really use their own country, why don't you give them Florida?" The answer would be "fuck off." You'd have said the same thing. If it's all about the law of the jungle what are we even discussing right now? On July 29 2014 06:42 DinoMight wrote:On July 29 2014 06:32 Nyxisto wrote:
I'm not denying that some of the paramilitary groups used terrorism, but they were fighting for an independent state, after they had experienced the Holocaust in Europe. So the holocaust is justification for Terrorism? Because from what I hear the Palestinians are also fighting for an independent state. They're not fighting for an Independent state, they're fighting for a Palestine without Israel. If all they wanted was an independent state all they'd need to do is to put their weapons down. Abu Marzouk, Hamas senior a few months ago: “We would have spared ourselves seven years of misery under the siege and two wars in 2008 and 2012 had we wanted to recognize Israel,” he said. Sourceedit: wrong guy The two blocks you've quoted perfectly answer each other. So why do you think the Palestinians don't accept peace? This. If I came to your house and said, "oy, this basement now belongs to this homeless family that really needs it..." how would you react? In the Palestinians eyes, their land was taken away from them. And now they're being driven into corners of it and forced to live in pitiful conditions. What do you expect them to do? Put down their guns and hope that Israel reverses a 65 year trend of abusing them? If my house was like ten thousand square miles big and owned by the British, I'd say "sure have some of it" On July 29 2014 06:55 EtherealBlade wrote:On July 29 2014 06:47 Nyxisto wrote:On July 29 2014 06:38 DinoMight wrote:On July 29 2014 06:32 Nyxisto wrote:On July 29 2014 06:25 ImFromPortugal wrote:On July 29 2014 06:05 Nyxisto wrote:
[quote]
It's war, but as you're blatantly ignoring the realities of modern warfare that are not exclusive to this conflict anyway it doesn't make much sense to continue talking to you. Israel has never been convicted of committing genocide nor is any sane person accusing them of it.
[quote]
So you're denying Israel's right to exist completely? It at least sounds like that's what you're implying. Bro i was hoping for you to reply and say something about the terrorism from the zionist not so long ago.. but not a single word.. could you please tell me your stand in this issue ? I'm not denying that some of the paramilitary groups used terrorism, but they were fighting for an independent state, after they had experienced the Holocaust in Europe. The Hamas is not a group a freedom fighters. They don't want peace, they want to kill every Jew they can find. It's in their charter, it's what everyone of their leaders has said. It's why they rejected the two state solution in 1947. On July 29 2014 06:31 EtherealBlade wrote:
This is ridiculous. They were not being exterminated on the European continent. Sweden, Spain, Switzerland, Turkey were all neutral countries. . No European country was willing to give refuge to a significant amount of Jews in Europe. That's precisely why 90% of them either migrated to Israel or the US. They rejected the two state solution because they had 100% of the land and someone told them hey, how about you give half of it to these people so they can form their own country. How do you think the US would respond if someone said "you know Tibetans are being opressed in China and they could really use their own country, why don't you give them Florida?" The answer would be "fuck off." You'd have said the same thing. If it's all about the law of the jungle what are we even discussing right now? On July 29 2014 06:42 DinoMight wrote:On July 29 2014 06:32 Nyxisto wrote:
I'm not denying that some of the paramilitary groups used terrorism, but they were fighting for an independent state, after they had experienced the Holocaust in Europe. So the holocaust is justification for Terrorism? Because from what I hear the Palestinians are also fighting for an independent state. They're not fighting for an Independent state, they're fighting for a Palestine without Israel. If all they wanted was an independent state all they'd need to do is to put their weapons down. Abu Marzouk, Hamas senior a few months ago: “We would have spared ourselves seven years of misery under the siege and two wars in 2008 and 2012 had we wanted to recognize Israel,” he said. Sourceedit: wrong guy The two blocks you've quoted perfectly answer each other. So why do you think the Palestinians don't accept peace? There are Palestinians that would accept peace, but the Hamas certainly does not, they won't fight until every Israeli is gone. Let's put this into perspective then, there are 3 million Turkish living in Germany. One day they decide to carve out roughly one fourth of Germany because they desire an independent state. They start to bomb hotels, assassinate people and form armies. Do you give away one fourth of Germany, including the city you live in, to this new state, where it's declared that Germans cannot form the majority under any circumstance? (no offense to any Turkish reader, I merely wanted to use a sizable minority that exists in Europe as a real life example) I obviously would not. But this analogy is very far off. A Palestinian state never existed. Germany is a sovereign country. And the Turkish immigrants here have not faced the history the European Jews have (which I think is not irrelevant in contrast to WhiteDog) There never was a state of Palestine. It belonged to the Ottomans, the Brits, the Egyptians and Jordan. I also agree with WhiteDog that the discussion won't go anywhere, Israel exists, it's not going away, and if dozens of historians can't agree on who is in the right we certainly won't. I beg to differ. The Holocaust (while a tragedy) is completely irrelevant to any discussion about Israel/Palestine. It is used as a way to generate sympathy for the Israelis and occasionally as an excuse to justify things they're not proud of (such as the terrorist Zionist tactics). But has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that a state was basically created on top of a group of people already living on a patch of land. THAT is the origin of the conflict. How THAT has been handled is the reason the two sides have their differences. On July 29 2014 07:37 Jormundr wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2014 07:14 Nyxisto wrote:On July 29 2014 07:11 EtherealBlade wrote:On July 29 2014 07:04 Nyxisto wrote:On July 29 2014 07:00 DinoMight wrote:On July 29 2014 06:55 EtherealBlade wrote:On July 29 2014 06:47 Nyxisto wrote:On July 29 2014 06:38 DinoMight wrote:On July 29 2014 06:32 Nyxisto wrote:On July 29 2014 06:25 ImFromPortugal wrote:
[quote]
Bro i was hoping for you to reply and say something about the terrorism from the zionist not so long ago.. but not a single word.. could you please tell me your stand in this issue ? I'm not denying that some of the paramilitary groups used terrorism, but they were fighting for an independent state, after they had experienced the Holocaust in Europe. The Hamas is not a group a freedom fighters. They don't want peace, they want to kill every Jew they can find. It's in their charter, it's what everyone of their leaders has said. It's why they rejected the two state solution in 1947. On July 29 2014 06:31 EtherealBlade wrote:
This is ridiculous. They were not being exterminated on the European continent. Sweden, Spain, Switzerland, Turkey were all neutral countries. . No European country was willing to give refuge to a significant amount of Jews in Europe. That's precisely why 90% of them either migrated to Israel or the US. They rejected the two state solution because they had 100% of the land and someone told them hey, how about you give half of it to these people so they can form their own country. How do you think the US would respond if someone said "you know Tibetans are being opressed in China and they could really use their own country, why don't you give them Florida?" The answer would be "fuck off." You'd have said the same thing. If it's all about the law of the jungle what are we even discussing right now? On July 29 2014 06:42 DinoMight wrote:On July 29 2014 06:32 Nyxisto wrote:
I'm not denying that some of the paramilitary groups used terrorism, but they were fighting for an independent state, after they had experienced the Holocaust in Europe. So the holocaust is justification for Terrorism? Because from what I hear the Palestinians are also fighting for an independent state. They're not fighting for an Independent state, they're fighting for a Palestine without Israel. If all they wanted was an independent state all they'd need to do is to put their weapons down. Abu Marzouk, Hamas senior a few months ago: “We would have spared ourselves seven years of misery under the siege and two wars in 2008 and 2012 had we wanted to recognize Israel,” he said. Sourceedit: wrong guy The two blocks you've quoted perfectly answer each other. So why do you think the Palestinians don't accept peace? This. If I came to your house and said, "oy, this basement now belongs to this homeless family that really needs it..." how would you react? In the Palestinians eyes, their land was taken away from them. And now they're being driven into corners of it and forced to live in pitiful conditions. What do you expect them to do? Put down their guns and hope that Israel reverses a 65 year trend of abusing them? If my house was like ten thousand square miles big and owned by the British, I'd say "sure have some of it" On July 29 2014 06:55 EtherealBlade wrote:On July 29 2014 06:47 Nyxisto wrote:On July 29 2014 06:38 DinoMight wrote:On July 29 2014 06:32 Nyxisto wrote:On July 29 2014 06:25 ImFromPortugal wrote:On July 29 2014 06:05 Nyxisto wrote:
[quote]
It's war, but as you're blatantly ignoring the realities of modern warfare that are not exclusive to this conflict anyway it doesn't make much sense to continue talking to you. Israel has never been convicted of committing genocide nor is any sane person accusing them of it.
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So you're denying Israel's right to exist completely? It at least sounds like that's what you're implying. Bro i was hoping for you to reply and say something about the terrorism from the zionist not so long ago.. but not a single word.. could you please tell me your stand in this issue ? I'm not denying that some of the paramilitary groups used terrorism, but they were fighting for an independent state, after they had experienced the Holocaust in Europe. The Hamas is not a group a freedom fighters. They don't want peace, they want to kill every Jew they can find. It's in their charter, it's what everyone of their leaders has said. It's why they rejected the two state solution in 1947. On July 29 2014 06:31 EtherealBlade wrote:
This is ridiculous. They were not being exterminated on the European continent. Sweden, Spain, Switzerland, Turkey were all neutral countries. . No European country was willing to give refuge to a significant amount of Jews in Europe. That's precisely why 90% of them either migrated to Israel or the US. They rejected the two state solution because they had 100% of the land and someone told them hey, how about you give half of it to these people so they can form their own country. How do you think the US would respond if someone said "you know Tibetans are being opressed in China and they could really use their own country, why don't you give them Florida?" The answer would be "fuck off." You'd have said the same thing. If it's all about the law of the jungle what are we even discussing right now? On July 29 2014 06:42 DinoMight wrote:On July 29 2014 06:32 Nyxisto wrote:
I'm not denying that some of the paramilitary groups used terrorism, but they were fighting for an independent state, after they had experienced the Holocaust in Europe. So the holocaust is justification for Terrorism? Because from what I hear the Palestinians are also fighting for an independent state. They're not fighting for an Independent state, they're fighting for a Palestine without Israel. If all they wanted was an independent state all they'd need to do is to put their weapons down. Abu Marzouk, Hamas senior a few months ago: “We would have spared ourselves seven years of misery under the siege and two wars in 2008 and 2012 had we wanted to recognize Israel,” he said. Sourceedit: wrong guy The two blocks you've quoted perfectly answer each other. So why do you think the Palestinians don't accept peace? There are Palestinians that would accept peace, but the Hamas certainly does not, they won't fight until every Israeli is gone. Let's put this into perspective then, there are 3 million Turkish living in Germany. One day they decide to carve out roughly one fourth of Germany because they desire an independent state. They start to bomb hotels, assassinate people and form armies. Do you give away one fourth of Germany, including the city you live in, to this new state, where it's declared that Germans cannot form the majority under any circumstance? (no offense to any Turkish reader, I merely wanted to use a sizable minority that exists in Europe as a real life example) I obviously would not. But this analogy is very far off. A Palestinian state never existed. Germany is a sovereign country. And the Turkish immigrants here have not faced the history the European Jews have (which I think is not irrelevant in contrast to WhiteDog) There never was a state of Palestine. It belonged to the Ottomans, the Brits, the Egyptians and Jordan. I also agree with WhiteDog that the discussion won't go anywhere, Israel exists, it's not going away, and if dozens of historians can't agree on who is in the right we certainly won't. The difference I see between the Hamas and Israel today is that Israel genuinely wants to defend its country. They may do that in a very harsh way but in the end they want peace. The Hamas just wants to do what the Arabic World already wanted 60 years ago, destroy Israel. It's nice to see you emphasize a dehumanizing argument that I've previously only seen from my conservative zionist friends. The 'palestine never existed' argument denies human beings the legitimacy of their rights to land and property ownership through a semantics argument. That is racist, zionist bullshit. If you really think that the Palestinian people had any less claim to the land they owned and lived on because they were labelled differently based on which empires they were part of then you were clearly born in the wrong era of German history. The difference I see between Hamas and Israel today is that Israel has consistently shown that it genuinely wants to drive Palestians out of the west bank until it is primarily controlled by jewish settlers and keep the Gazans quiet through relentless punitive subjugation. Hamas fights for the right to exist, a right which you and Israel deny.
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Is there any argument I can come up with that you're not going to "refute" with "but they stole their jerbs land"? The land at the time was occupied by the British and the British seem to have gotten over it. If you think that the fight of the Israelis for independence is illegitimate,and thus everything that follows, what more is there to say? I also don't understand how the struggle between the Brits and the Israelis is relevant as this has nothing to do with the Arabs at all. The discussion that is relevant for this thread basically begins when Israel was founded, and the Arabs and Israelis went to war.
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On July 29 2014 09:50 Nyxisto wrote:
Is there any argument I can come up with that you're not going to "refute" with "but they stole their jerbs land"? The land at the time was occupied by the British and the British seem to have gotten over it. If you think that the fight of the Israelis for independence is illegitimate, what more is there to say? I also don't understand how the struggle between the Brits and the Israelis is relevant as this has nothing to do with the Arabs at all. The discussion that is relevant for this thread basically begins when Israel was founded, and the Arabs and Israelis went to war.
Not when you're entirely full of shit and criticizing the Palestinians while praising/acceptingthe exact same actions and far worse from Israel. Predictably you're doing exactly what I accused you of on the last page. You're skipping the beginning of this conflict and pretending that it began after the founding of Israel. This (conveniently) frames the narrative to make it look like the Israeli settlers were unfairly victimized.
If you want to make a decent argument, stop arguing in a way that absolves Israel of all responsibility for its actions past and present.
User was warned for this post
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I've never praised terrorism, all I'm arguing is that 1) I don't understand why the internal struggle between the British and the Israelis is relevant, and 2) why the Palestinian's apparently are willing to live under British control while living with Jewish neighbours is apparently so outrageous that they needed to start a war two days after the founding of Israel.
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On July 29 2014 10:05 Jormundr wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2014 09:50 Nyxisto wrote:
Is there any argument I can come up with that you're not going to "refute" with "but they stole their jerbs land"? The land at the time was occupied by the British and the British seem to have gotten over it. If you think that the fight of the Israelis for independence is illegitimate, what more is there to say? I also don't understand how the struggle between the Brits and the Israelis is relevant as this has nothing to do with the Arabs at all. The discussion that is relevant for this thread basically begins when Israel was founded, and the Arabs and Israelis went to war. Not when you're entirely full of shit and criticizing the Palestinians while praising/acceptingthe exact same actions and far worse from Israel. Predictably you're doing exactly what I accused you of on the last page. You're skipping the beginning of this conflict and pretending that it began after the founding of Israel. This (conveniently) frames the narrative to make it look like the Israeli settlers were unfairly victimized. If you want to make a decent argument, stop arguing in a way that absolves Israel of all responsibility for its actions past and present.
Let me add to this:
Arabs didn't have a problem with Jews before Israel. In fact, during the Spanish Inquisition it was the Ottoman Empire that harbored all the runaway Jews. Furthermore, the Muslim religion actually recognizes the Jews as "people of the book" and followers of the same god.
You're trying to infuse hatred, anti-semitism, guilt about the Hollocaust, and other nonsense into a conflict which can be summarized as follows:
Palestinians used to live on a patch of land. Then Jews with the help of certain pro-Zionist Brits (and using rather unethical terrorist tactics) took the land from them. The Palestinians want the land they used to live on back.
Then you follow it up by saying that it's okay for Jews to do all these things because "The Hollocaust." But when Arabs do literally the same exact things (hide weapons in unethical places, use terrorist tactics) you cry OUTRAGE.
You have such an obvious bias and are holding the Palestinians to such a ridiculous double standard that it's impossible to reason with you.
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On July 29 2014 10:14 Nyxisto wrote:
I've never praised terrorism, all I'm arguing is that 1) I don't understand why the internal struggle between the British and the Israelis is relevant, and 2) why the Palestinian's apparently are willing to live under British control while living with Jewish neighbours is apparently so outrageous that they needed to start a war two days after the founding of Israel.
It's pretty clear. The Palestinians used to live on a patch of land under the Ottoman Empire. Then the British/French took control of the region. This didn't affect them, really. It was just part of the post World War I balance of power.
Then the Zionists said - okay, this land is no longer yours we're taking it to build our exclusive country on.
Arabs and Jews (and JEWISH ARABS) had been living in this area for many many years. It's Israel's creation as a JEWISH state exclusively on land that they were living on that the Palestinians were not ready to tolerate.
Say what you will about Israel's inclusion, but whatever statistics you give are as a result of the reality that Arabs already occupied that land, not because Israel has shown particularly inclusive tendencies over the years. Their flag is a Star of David. They refer to themselves as The Jewish State.
Enough said.
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On July 29 2014 10:14 Nyxisto wrote:
I've never praised terrorism, all I'm arguing is that 1) I don't understand why the internal struggle between the British and the Israelis is relevant, and 2) why the Palestinian's apparently are willing to live under British control while living with Jewish neighbours is apparently so outrageous that they needed to start a war two days after the founding of Israel.
It was a struggle of Israelis vs British and indigenous arabs. Kind of important if YOU are going to play the "but they attacked first!!!!" card so often.
And are you being facetious with #2 or are you ignorant of even the Israel-can-do-no-wrong-ever-because-we're-god's-chosen-people version of history?
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On July 29 2014 10:19 DinoMight wrote:
Then you follow it up by saying that it's okay for Jews to do all these things because "The Hollocaust." But when Arabs do literally the same exact things (hide weapons in unethical places, use terrorist tactics) you cry OUTRAGE.
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No, this is absurd relativism. The Hamas doesn't fight for their people's freedom, they fight because they want to destroy the Israelian state. They have written it in their charter and their leaders have repeatedly said it. They fight so that they can pile up a bunch of Palestinian corpses, which in return will result in you pointing your fingers at the evil Israelians. I have to applaud them, given the huge circlejerk here apparently it's working great.
And are you being facetious with #2 or are you ignorant of even the Israel-can-do-no-wrong-ever-because-we're-god's-chosen-people version of history?
No, and don't act like it's a settled debate. There is quite some dispute about whether the Israelians 'kicked the Arabs out', or if the Palestinians withdrew in anticipation of a destruction of Israel , or a combination of both.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_the_1948_Palestinian_exodus
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EPT
