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On July 29 2014 06:05 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2014 06:01 EtherealBlade wrote:
So is this self defense? Or genocide? It's war, but as you're blatantly ignoring the realities of modern warfare that are not exclusive to this conflict anyway it doesn't make much sense to continue talking to you. Israel has never been convicted of committing genocide nor is any sane person accusing them of it. Show nested quote +On July 29 2014 05:51 DinoMight wrote:On July 29 2014 04:26 Nyxisto wrote:
And given the large Arabic population of Israel today, how does the accusation that Israel is "ethnically cleansing the country" still make sense? 20.7% Arabs to 75.3% Jews in a country that is 65 years old on land that was previously near 100% Arabs (including Jewish arabs). So you're denying Israel's right to exist completely? It at least sounds like that's what you're implying.
Bro i was hoping for you to reply and say something about the terrorism from the zionist not so long ago.. but not a single word.. could you please tell me your stand in this issue ?
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On July 29 2014 06:18 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2014 06:14 Bill Murray wrote:On July 29 2014 06:14 Nyxisto wrote:On July 29 2014 06:11 DinoMight wrote:On July 29 2014 06:05 Nyxisto wrote:On July 29 2014 06:01 EtherealBlade wrote:
So is this self defense? Or genocide? It's war, but as you're blatantly ignoring the realities of modern warfare that are not exclusive to this conflict anyway it doesn't make much sense to continue talking to you. On July 29 2014 05:51 DinoMight wrote:On July 29 2014 04:26 Nyxisto wrote:
And given the large Arabic population of Israel today, how does the accusation that Israel is "ethnically cleansing the country" still make sense? 20.7% Arabs to 75.3% Jews in a country that is 65 years old on land that was previously near 100% Arabs (including Jewish arabs). So you're denying Israel's right to exist completely? It at least sounds like that's what you're implying. Like I have told you before, build your straw man elsewhere. This is not the place for putting words in people's mouths and it's not the place to cry "deying our right to exist" and "anti-semitism" anytime someone criticizes Israel. I'm not denying Israel's right to exist. I'm only putting your comment in perspective. If the United States invaded Mexico and killed damn near every Mexican or forced them to flee, then paid Americans to move to Mexico... would it be surprising that the resulting country has roughly 20% Mexicans? No. Your claim that a "large" Arab population somehow proves your point about Israel comitting genocide or ethnic cleansing is absurd specifically because literally everyone who lived there before Israel was Arab. I have repeatedly said and it is true that Israel is the most democratic country in the region, and that it represents the Arab minority in a way like no Jewish or Christian minority is represented in any Muslim country. If your reply to that is "But now only 20% of them are Arabs it used to be 100% !!!" That basically means your that your argument it "Jews gtf out of here". You can't blame them for having that argument, though, because it isn't fair for Palestine to have been displaced the way it was. And it wasn't fair that the Jewish people had no other alternative to flee to the middle-east or to America after they were being exterminated on the European continent, but that's what happened. No country has been founded out of love peace and happiness. The point is that there could have been peace for a long time, but the driving force in this conflict are people that present a radical Islam which will not tolerate any kind of plurality in the region.
This is ridiculous. They were not being exterminated on the European continent. Sweden, Spain, Switzerland, Turkey were all neutral countries. You're now saying Israel was not founded out of peace which is true. It was a very violent movement that founded Israel, one that would not tolerate any other religion being a majority on it's territory.
On the other hand, radical Islam was nearly unknown. The main issue on people's minds was simply getting rid of the Turks (who btw were one of the most tolerant empires until the 19th century where this trend reversed) and becoming independent .
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On July 29 2014 06:25 ImFromPortugal wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2014 06:05 Nyxisto wrote:On July 29 2014 06:01 EtherealBlade wrote:
So is this self defense? Or genocide? It's war, but as you're blatantly ignoring the realities of modern warfare that are not exclusive to this conflict anyway it doesn't make much sense to continue talking to you. Israel has never been convicted of committing genocide nor is any sane person accusing them of it. On July 29 2014 05:51 DinoMight wrote:On July 29 2014 04:26 Nyxisto wrote:
And given the large Arabic population of Israel today, how does the accusation that Israel is "ethnically cleansing the country" still make sense? 20.7% Arabs to 75.3% Jews in a country that is 65 years old on land that was previously near 100% Arabs (including Jewish arabs). So you're denying Israel's right to exist completely? It at least sounds like that's what you're implying. Bro i was hoping for you to reply and say something about the terrorism from the zionist not so long ago.. but not a single word.. could you please tell me your stand in this issue ?
I'm not denying that some of the paramilitary groups used terrorism, but they were fighting for an independent state, after they had experienced the Holocaust in Europe. The Hamas is not a group a freedom fighters. They don't want peace, they want to kill every Jew they can find. It's in their charter, it's what everyone of their leaders has said. It's why they rejected the two state solution in 1947.
On July 29 2014 06:31 EtherealBlade wrote:
This is ridiculous. They were not being exterminated on the European continent. Sweden, Spain, Switzerland, Turkey were all neutral countries. .
No European country was willing to give refuge to a significant amount of Jews in Europe. That's precisely why 90% of them either migrated to Israel or the US, and why so many were killed by Nazi Germany.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evian_Conference
Even the US and the UK were reluctant in the beginning.
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On July 29 2014 06:32 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2014 06:25 ImFromPortugal wrote:On July 29 2014 06:05 Nyxisto wrote:On July 29 2014 06:01 EtherealBlade wrote:
So is this self defense? Or genocide? It's war, but as you're blatantly ignoring the realities of modern warfare that are not exclusive to this conflict anyway it doesn't make much sense to continue talking to you. Israel has never been convicted of committing genocide nor is any sane person accusing them of it. On July 29 2014 05:51 DinoMight wrote:On July 29 2014 04:26 Nyxisto wrote:
And given the large Arabic population of Israel today, how does the accusation that Israel is "ethnically cleansing the country" still make sense? 20.7% Arabs to 75.3% Jews in a country that is 65 years old on land that was previously near 100% Arabs (including Jewish arabs). So you're denying Israel's right to exist completely? It at least sounds like that's what you're implying. Bro i was hoping for you to reply and say something about the terrorism from the zionist not so long ago.. but not a single word.. could you please tell me your stand in this issue ? I'm not denying that some of the paramilitary groups used terrorism, but they were fighting for an independent state, after they had experienced the Holocaust in Europe. The Hamas is not a group a freedom fighters. They don't want peace, they want to kill every Jew they can find. It's in their charter, it's what everyone of their leaders has said. It's why they rejected the two state solution in 1947. Show nested quote +On July 29 2014 06:31 EtherealBlade wrote:
This is ridiculous. They were not being exterminated on the European continent. Sweden, Spain, Switzerland, Turkey were all neutral countries. . No European country was willing to give refuge to a significant amount of Jews in Europe. That's precisely why 90% of them either migrated to Israel or the US.
They rejected the two state solution because they had 100% of the land and someone told them hey, how about you give half of it to these people so they can form their own country. How do you think the US would respond if someone said "you know Tibetans are being opressed in China and they could really use their own country, why don't you give them Florida?"
The answer would be "fuck off." You'd have said the same thing.
It doesn't even have anything to do with religion. There were many Jews living in that area perfectly contently.
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On July 29 2014 06:32 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2014 06:25 ImFromPortugal wrote:On July 29 2014 06:05 Nyxisto wrote:On July 29 2014 06:01 EtherealBlade wrote:
So is this self defense? Or genocide? It's war, but as you're blatantly ignoring the realities of modern warfare that are not exclusive to this conflict anyway it doesn't make much sense to continue talking to you. Israel has never been convicted of committing genocide nor is any sane person accusing them of it. On July 29 2014 05:51 DinoMight wrote:On July 29 2014 04:26 Nyxisto wrote:
And given the large Arabic population of Israel today, how does the accusation that Israel is "ethnically cleansing the country" still make sense? 20.7% Arabs to 75.3% Jews in a country that is 65 years old on land that was previously near 100% Arabs (including Jewish arabs). So you're denying Israel's right to exist completely? It at least sounds like that's what you're implying. Bro i was hoping for you to reply and say something about the terrorism from the zionist not so long ago.. but not a single word.. could you please tell me your stand in this issue ? I'm not denying that some of the paramilitary groups used terrorism, but they were fighting for an independent state, after they had experienced the Holocaust in Europe.
So terrorism is ok in some cases? Can you list some other?
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Nvm. Don't want to debate.
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On July 29 2014 06:32 Nyxisto wrote:
I'm not denying that some of the paramilitary groups used terrorism, but they were fighting for an independent state, after they had experienced the Holocaust in Europe.
So the holocaust is justification for Terrorism? Because from what I hear the Palestinians are also fighting for an independent state.
If my cubicle neighbor at work kicks me in the balls, that doesn't give me the right to act like a prick around the office to everyone else. Now I know the holocaust was an awful thing and many innocents died, and I don't want to belittle that... but the suffering of the Jewish people should not be grounds for the suffering of other people.
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On July 29 2014 06:38 EtherealBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2014 06:32 Nyxisto wrote:On July 29 2014 06:25 ImFromPortugal wrote:On July 29 2014 06:05 Nyxisto wrote:On July 29 2014 06:01 EtherealBlade wrote:
So is this self defense? Or genocide? It's war, but as you're blatantly ignoring the realities of modern warfare that are not exclusive to this conflict anyway it doesn't make much sense to continue talking to you. Israel has never been convicted of committing genocide nor is any sane person accusing them of it. On July 29 2014 05:51 DinoMight wrote:On July 29 2014 04:26 Nyxisto wrote:
And given the large Arabic population of Israel today, how does the accusation that Israel is "ethnically cleansing the country" still make sense? 20.7% Arabs to 75.3% Jews in a country that is 65 years old on land that was previously near 100% Arabs (including Jewish arabs). So you're denying Israel's right to exist completely? It at least sounds like that's what you're implying. Bro i was hoping for you to reply and say something about the terrorism from the zionist not so long ago.. but not a single word.. could you please tell me your stand in this issue ? I'm not denying that some of the paramilitary groups used terrorism, but they were fighting for an independent state, after they had experienced the Holocaust in Europe. So terrorism is ok in some cases? Can you list some other?
I am not for or against his argument, but the French resistance was a fairly tolerable group of people as far as terrorists go... other than that a lot of "ok"-ness is shades of grey
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On July 29 2014 06:43 CeriseCherries wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2014 06:38 EtherealBlade wrote:On July 29 2014 06:32 Nyxisto wrote:On July 29 2014 06:25 ImFromPortugal wrote:On July 29 2014 06:05 Nyxisto wrote:On July 29 2014 06:01 EtherealBlade wrote:
So is this self defense? Or genocide? It's war, but as you're blatantly ignoring the realities of modern warfare that are not exclusive to this conflict anyway it doesn't make much sense to continue talking to you. Israel has never been convicted of committing genocide nor is any sane person accusing them of it. On July 29 2014 05:51 DinoMight wrote:On July 29 2014 04:26 Nyxisto wrote:
And given the large Arabic population of Israel today, how does the accusation that Israel is "ethnically cleansing the country" still make sense? 20.7% Arabs to 75.3% Jews in a country that is 65 years old on land that was previously near 100% Arabs (including Jewish arabs). So you're denying Israel's right to exist completely? It at least sounds like that's what you're implying. Bro i was hoping for you to reply and say something about the terrorism from the zionist not so long ago.. but not a single word.. could you please tell me your stand in this issue ? I'm not denying that some of the paramilitary groups used terrorism, but they were fighting for an independent state, after they had experienced the Holocaust in Europe. So terrorism is ok in some cases? Can you list some other? I am not for or against his argument, but the French resistance was a fairly tolerable group of people as far as terrorists go... other than that a lot of "ok"-ness is shades of grey
And the Zionist terrorists were resisting against what ?
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On July 29 2014 06:38 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2014 06:32 Nyxisto wrote:On July 29 2014 06:25 ImFromPortugal wrote:On July 29 2014 06:05 Nyxisto wrote:On July 29 2014 06:01 EtherealBlade wrote:
So is this self defense? Or genocide? It's war, but as you're blatantly ignoring the realities of modern warfare that are not exclusive to this conflict anyway it doesn't make much sense to continue talking to you. Israel has never been convicted of committing genocide nor is any sane person accusing them of it. On July 29 2014 05:51 DinoMight wrote:On July 29 2014 04:26 Nyxisto wrote:
And given the large Arabic population of Israel today, how does the accusation that Israel is "ethnically cleansing the country" still make sense? 20.7% Arabs to 75.3% Jews in a country that is 65 years old on land that was previously near 100% Arabs (including Jewish arabs). So you're denying Israel's right to exist completely? It at least sounds like that's what you're implying. Bro i was hoping for you to reply and say something about the terrorism from the zionist not so long ago.. but not a single word.. could you please tell me your stand in this issue ? I'm not denying that some of the paramilitary groups used terrorism, but they were fighting for an independent state, after they had experienced the Holocaust in Europe. The Hamas is not a group a freedom fighters. They don't want peace, they want to kill every Jew they can find. It's in their charter, it's what everyone of their leaders has said. It's why they rejected the two state solution in 1947. On July 29 2014 06:31 EtherealBlade wrote:
This is ridiculous. They were not being exterminated on the European continent. Sweden, Spain, Switzerland, Turkey were all neutral countries. . No European country was willing to give refuge to a significant amount of Jews in Europe. That's precisely why 90% of them either migrated to Israel or the US. They rejected the two state solution because they had 100% of the land and someone told them hey, how about you give half of it to these people so they can form their own country. How do you think the US would respond if someone said "you know Tibetans are being opressed in China and they could really use their own country, why don't you give them Florida?" The answer would be "fuck off." You'd have said the same thing.
If it's all about the law of the jungle what are we even discussing right now?
On July 29 2014 06:42 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2014 06:32 Nyxisto wrote:
I'm not denying that some of the paramilitary groups used terrorism, but they were fighting for an independent state, after they had experienced the Holocaust in Europe. So the holocaust is justification for Terrorism? Because from what I hear the Palestinians are also fighting for an independent state.
They're not fighting for an Independent state, they're fighting for a Palestine without Israel. If all they wanted was an independent state all they'd need to do is to put their weapons down.
Abu Marzouk, Hamas senior a few months ago:
“We would have spared ourselves seven years of misery under the siege and two wars in 2008 and 2012 had we wanted to recognize Israel,” he said.
Source
edit: wrong guy
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I am not surprised since the refounding of Israel came with war. They are essentially a warrior nation. The people grow up in it. Let me put it this way. People in America even though there is war going on. Are not growing up in the war. They are growing up with a war that happens to be going on. They aren't in it. However, Israel has and will be. So, you have alot of kids who grew up knowing no other way.
The only thing I find surprising about this. Is that it didn't happen sooner. Especially since so many people keep fucking with Israel. I find it surprising anybody would be against Israel at this point. Their logic is pretty simple. Don't fuck with us at all, period.
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On July 29 2014 06:47 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2014 06:38 DinoMight wrote:On July 29 2014 06:32 Nyxisto wrote:On July 29 2014 06:25 ImFromPortugal wrote:On July 29 2014 06:05 Nyxisto wrote:On July 29 2014 06:01 EtherealBlade wrote:
So is this self defense? Or genocide? It's war, but as you're blatantly ignoring the realities of modern warfare that are not exclusive to this conflict anyway it doesn't make much sense to continue talking to you. Israel has never been convicted of committing genocide nor is any sane person accusing them of it. On July 29 2014 05:51 DinoMight wrote:On July 29 2014 04:26 Nyxisto wrote:
And given the large Arabic population of Israel today, how does the accusation that Israel is "ethnically cleansing the country" still make sense? 20.7% Arabs to 75.3% Jews in a country that is 65 years old on land that was previously near 100% Arabs (including Jewish arabs). So you're denying Israel's right to exist completely? It at least sounds like that's what you're implying. Bro i was hoping for you to reply and say something about the terrorism from the zionist not so long ago.. but not a single word.. could you please tell me your stand in this issue ? I'm not denying that some of the paramilitary groups used terrorism, but they were fighting for an independent state, after they had experienced the Holocaust in Europe. The Hamas is not a group a freedom fighters. They don't want peace, they want to kill every Jew they can find. It's in their charter, it's what everyone of their leaders has said. It's why they rejected the two state solution in 1947. On July 29 2014 06:31 EtherealBlade wrote:
This is ridiculous. They were not being exterminated on the European continent. Sweden, Spain, Switzerland, Turkey were all neutral countries. . No European country was willing to give refuge to a significant amount of Jews in Europe. That's precisely why 90% of them either migrated to Israel or the US. They rejected the two state solution because they had 100% of the land and someone told them hey, how about you give half of it to these people so they can form their own country. How do you think the US would respond if someone said "you know Tibetans are being opressed in China and they could really use their own country, why don't you give them Florida?" The answer would be "fuck off." You'd have said the same thing. If it's all about the law of the jungle what are we even discussing right now? Show nested quote +On July 29 2014 06:42 DinoMight wrote:On July 29 2014 06:32 Nyxisto wrote:
I'm not denying that some of the paramilitary groups used terrorism, but they were fighting for an independent state, after they had experienced the Holocaust in Europe. So the holocaust is justification for Terrorism? Because from what I hear the Palestinians are also fighting for an independent state. They're not fighting for an Independent state, they're fighting for a Palestine without Israel. If all they wanted was an independent state all they'd need to do is to put their weapons down. Abu Marzouk, Hamas senior a few months ago: Show nested quote +“We would have spared ourselves seven years of misery under the siege and two wars in 2008 and 2012 had we wanted to recognize Israel,” he said. Sourceedit: wrong guy
The two blocks you've quoted perfectly answer each other.
So why do you think the Palestinians don't accept peace?
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On July 29 2014 06:55 EtherealBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2014 06:47 Nyxisto wrote:On July 29 2014 06:38 DinoMight wrote:On July 29 2014 06:32 Nyxisto wrote:On July 29 2014 06:25 ImFromPortugal wrote:On July 29 2014 06:05 Nyxisto wrote:On July 29 2014 06:01 EtherealBlade wrote:
So is this self defense? Or genocide? It's war, but as you're blatantly ignoring the realities of modern warfare that are not exclusive to this conflict anyway it doesn't make much sense to continue talking to you. Israel has never been convicted of committing genocide nor is any sane person accusing them of it. On July 29 2014 05:51 DinoMight wrote:On July 29 2014 04:26 Nyxisto wrote:
And given the large Arabic population of Israel today, how does the accusation that Israel is "ethnically cleansing the country" still make sense? 20.7% Arabs to 75.3% Jews in a country that is 65 years old on land that was previously near 100% Arabs (including Jewish arabs). So you're denying Israel's right to exist completely? It at least sounds like that's what you're implying. Bro i was hoping for you to reply and say something about the terrorism from the zionist not so long ago.. but not a single word.. could you please tell me your stand in this issue ? I'm not denying that some of the paramilitary groups used terrorism, but they were fighting for an independent state, after they had experienced the Holocaust in Europe. The Hamas is not a group a freedom fighters. They don't want peace, they want to kill every Jew they can find. It's in their charter, it's what everyone of their leaders has said. It's why they rejected the two state solution in 1947. On July 29 2014 06:31 EtherealBlade wrote:
This is ridiculous. They were not being exterminated on the European continent. Sweden, Spain, Switzerland, Turkey were all neutral countries. . No European country was willing to give refuge to a significant amount of Jews in Europe. That's precisely why 90% of them either migrated to Israel or the US. They rejected the two state solution because they had 100% of the land and someone told them hey, how about you give half of it to these people so they can form their own country. How do you think the US would respond if someone said "you know Tibetans are being opressed in China and they could really use their own country, why don't you give them Florida?" The answer would be "fuck off." You'd have said the same thing. If it's all about the law of the jungle what are we even discussing right now? On July 29 2014 06:42 DinoMight wrote:On July 29 2014 06:32 Nyxisto wrote:
I'm not denying that some of the paramilitary groups used terrorism, but they were fighting for an independent state, after they had experienced the Holocaust in Europe. So the holocaust is justification for Terrorism? Because from what I hear the Palestinians are also fighting for an independent state. They're not fighting for an Independent state, they're fighting for a Palestine without Israel. If all they wanted was an independent state all they'd need to do is to put their weapons down. Abu Marzouk, Hamas senior a few months ago: “We would have spared ourselves seven years of misery under the siege and two wars in 2008 and 2012 had we wanted to recognize Israel,” he said. Sourceedit: wrong guy The two blocks you've quoted perfectly answer each other. So why do you think the Palestinians don't accept peace?
This.
If I came to your house and said, "oy, this basement now belongs to this homeless family that really needs it..." how would you react?
In the Palestinians eyes, their land was taken away from them. And now they're being driven into corners of it and forced to live in pitiful conditions.
What do you expect them to do? Put down their guns and hope that Israel reverses a 65 year trend of abusing them?
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On July 29 2014 07:00 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2014 06:55 EtherealBlade wrote:On July 29 2014 06:47 Nyxisto wrote:On July 29 2014 06:38 DinoMight wrote:On July 29 2014 06:32 Nyxisto wrote:On July 29 2014 06:25 ImFromPortugal wrote:On July 29 2014 06:05 Nyxisto wrote:On July 29 2014 06:01 EtherealBlade wrote:
So is this self defense? Or genocide? It's war, but as you're blatantly ignoring the realities of modern warfare that are not exclusive to this conflict anyway it doesn't make much sense to continue talking to you. Israel has never been convicted of committing genocide nor is any sane person accusing them of it. On July 29 2014 05:51 DinoMight wrote:On July 29 2014 04:26 Nyxisto wrote:
And given the large Arabic population of Israel today, how does the accusation that Israel is "ethnically cleansing the country" still make sense? 20.7% Arabs to 75.3% Jews in a country that is 65 years old on land that was previously near 100% Arabs (including Jewish arabs). So you're denying Israel's right to exist completely? It at least sounds like that's what you're implying. Bro i was hoping for you to reply and say something about the terrorism from the zionist not so long ago.. but not a single word.. could you please tell me your stand in this issue ? I'm not denying that some of the paramilitary groups used terrorism, but they were fighting for an independent state, after they had experienced the Holocaust in Europe. The Hamas is not a group a freedom fighters. They don't want peace, they want to kill every Jew they can find. It's in their charter, it's what everyone of their leaders has said. It's why they rejected the two state solution in 1947. On July 29 2014 06:31 EtherealBlade wrote:
This is ridiculous. They were not being exterminated on the European continent. Sweden, Spain, Switzerland, Turkey were all neutral countries. . No European country was willing to give refuge to a significant amount of Jews in Europe. That's precisely why 90% of them either migrated to Israel or the US. They rejected the two state solution because they had 100% of the land and someone told them hey, how about you give half of it to these people so they can form their own country. How do you think the US would respond if someone said "you know Tibetans are being opressed in China and they could really use their own country, why don't you give them Florida?" The answer would be "fuck off." You'd have said the same thing. If it's all about the law of the jungle what are we even discussing right now? On July 29 2014 06:42 DinoMight wrote:On July 29 2014 06:32 Nyxisto wrote:
I'm not denying that some of the paramilitary groups used terrorism, but they were fighting for an independent state, after they had experienced the Holocaust in Europe. So the holocaust is justification for Terrorism? Because from what I hear the Palestinians are also fighting for an independent state. They're not fighting for an Independent state, they're fighting for a Palestine without Israel. If all they wanted was an independent state all they'd need to do is to put their weapons down. Abu Marzouk, Hamas senior a few months ago: “We would have spared ourselves seven years of misery under the siege and two wars in 2008 and 2012 had we wanted to recognize Israel,” he said. Sourceedit: wrong guy The two blocks you've quoted perfectly answer each other. So why do you think the Palestinians don't accept peace? This. If I came to your house and said, "oy, this basement now belongs to this homeless family that really needs it..." how would you react? In the Palestinians eyes, their land was taken away from them. And now they're being driven into corners of it and forced to live in pitiful conditions. What do you expect them to do? Put down their guns and hope that Israel reverses a 65 year trend of abusing them?
If my house was like ten thousand square miles big and owned by the British, I'd say "sure have some of it"
On July 29 2014 06:55 EtherealBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2014 06:47 Nyxisto wrote:On July 29 2014 06:38 DinoMight wrote:On July 29 2014 06:32 Nyxisto wrote:On July 29 2014 06:25 ImFromPortugal wrote:On July 29 2014 06:05 Nyxisto wrote:On July 29 2014 06:01 EtherealBlade wrote:
So is this self defense? Or genocide? It's war, but as you're blatantly ignoring the realities of modern warfare that are not exclusive to this conflict anyway it doesn't make much sense to continue talking to you. Israel has never been convicted of committing genocide nor is any sane person accusing them of it. On July 29 2014 05:51 DinoMight wrote:On July 29 2014 04:26 Nyxisto wrote:
And given the large Arabic population of Israel today, how does the accusation that Israel is "ethnically cleansing the country" still make sense? 20.7% Arabs to 75.3% Jews in a country that is 65 years old on land that was previously near 100% Arabs (including Jewish arabs). So you're denying Israel's right to exist completely? It at least sounds like that's what you're implying. Bro i was hoping for you to reply and say something about the terrorism from the zionist not so long ago.. but not a single word.. could you please tell me your stand in this issue ? I'm not denying that some of the paramilitary groups used terrorism, but they were fighting for an independent state, after they had experienced the Holocaust in Europe. The Hamas is not a group a freedom fighters. They don't want peace, they want to kill every Jew they can find. It's in their charter, it's what everyone of their leaders has said. It's why they rejected the two state solution in 1947. On July 29 2014 06:31 EtherealBlade wrote:
This is ridiculous. They were not being exterminated on the European continent. Sweden, Spain, Switzerland, Turkey were all neutral countries. . No European country was willing to give refuge to a significant amount of Jews in Europe. That's precisely why 90% of them either migrated to Israel or the US. They rejected the two state solution because they had 100% of the land and someone told them hey, how about you give half of it to these people so they can form their own country. How do you think the US would respond if someone said "you know Tibetans are being opressed in China and they could really use their own country, why don't you give them Florida?" The answer would be "fuck off." You'd have said the same thing. If it's all about the law of the jungle what are we even discussing right now? On July 29 2014 06:42 DinoMight wrote:On July 29 2014 06:32 Nyxisto wrote:
I'm not denying that some of the paramilitary groups used terrorism, but they were fighting for an independent state, after they had experienced the Holocaust in Europe. So the holocaust is justification for Terrorism? Because from what I hear the Palestinians are also fighting for an independent state. They're not fighting for an Independent state, they're fighting for a Palestine without Israel. If all they wanted was an independent state all they'd need to do is to put their weapons down. Abu Marzouk, Hamas senior a few months ago: “We would have spared ourselves seven years of misery under the siege and two wars in 2008 and 2012 had we wanted to recognize Israel,” he said. Sourceedit: wrong guy The two blocks you've quoted perfectly answer each other. So why do you think the Palestinians don't accept peace?
There are Palestinians that would accept peace, but the Hamas certainly does not, they will fight until every Israeli is gone.
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On July 29 2014 06:32 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2014 06:25 ImFromPortugal wrote:On July 29 2014 06:05 Nyxisto wrote:On July 29 2014 06:01 EtherealBlade wrote:
So is this self defense? Or genocide? It's war, but as you're blatantly ignoring the realities of modern warfare that are not exclusive to this conflict anyway it doesn't make much sense to continue talking to you. Israel has never been convicted of committing genocide nor is any sane person accusing them of it. On July 29 2014 05:51 DinoMight wrote:On July 29 2014 04:26 Nyxisto wrote:
And given the large Arabic population of Israel today, how does the accusation that Israel is "ethnically cleansing the country" still make sense? 20.7% Arabs to 75.3% Jews in a country that is 65 years old on land that was previously near 100% Arabs (including Jewish arabs). So you're denying Israel's right to exist completely? It at least sounds like that's what you're implying. Bro i was hoping for you to reply and say something about the terrorism from the zionist not so long ago.. but not a single word.. could you please tell me your stand in this issue ? I'm not denying that some of the paramilitary groups used terrorism, but they were fighting for an independent state, after they had experienced the Holocaust in Europe. The Hamas is not a group a freedom fighter. They don't want peace, they want to kill every Jew they can find. It's in their charter, it's what everyone of their leaders has said. It's why they rejected the two state solution in 1947.
So terrorist jews invading lands and blowing up civilians was ok because there were people elsewhere in the world who were oppressing jews, but in the modern day it is unacceptable for Palestinians to do the same when they historically have been and currently are the subject of a 70 year occupation by an oppressive and brutal invader who denies their right to exist as human beings whenever it is inconvenient to do so.
You're the one who's wrong here. In order of who started shit, it was
1. Jewish settlers
2. German nazis
3. Imperial britain's stupidity and western guilt over #2
4. Palestinians arabs
However in your version, 1, 2, and 3, which were all critical parts in the formation of Israel are ignored. You begin the history of Israel at #4 so you don't have to deal with the parts where Israel got where it is now by doing exactly the same thing as Hamas. The only difference now is that Israel has been put in the position of overwhelming strength by the international community. Claiming that Israel is the victim in their history of conflict with Gaza is similar to claiming that a rapist is the target of abuse when the child he has locked up in his basement happens upon a box cutter.
To ignore the historic difference in power and ability between the two groups is as ridiculous as the notion that Palestinians should just 'give up' and get over it by accepting an eternity of being second class citizens. Which, by the way, is the only 'concession' that Israel is willing to make, as exemplified by their continued ethnic cleansing of areas legally belonging to the Palestinian Authority in the west bank. Israel does want to foster peace in any manner which will enforce the notion that Palestine has the right to exist, as this runs counter to their goal of territorial expansion in the West Bank.
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This is most of the problem with this conflict : you cannot discuss what is going without discussing what has been.
Nyxisto justify what has been because he is german and has been raised in the idea that the holocaust is the worst and that people who suffered the holocaust are heroes - which is ridiculous on so many point, the first being that most zionist did not suffered the holocaust.
And he refute Arabs right to fight on the same premises : the jews are sacred and arabs are filthy. That's the basis of his political analysis.
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On July 29 2014 07:04 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2014 07:00 DinoMight wrote:On July 29 2014 06:55 EtherealBlade wrote:On July 29 2014 06:47 Nyxisto wrote:On July 29 2014 06:38 DinoMight wrote:On July 29 2014 06:32 Nyxisto wrote:On July 29 2014 06:25 ImFromPortugal wrote:On July 29 2014 06:05 Nyxisto wrote:On July 29 2014 06:01 EtherealBlade wrote:
So is this self defense? Or genocide? It's war, but as you're blatantly ignoring the realities of modern warfare that are not exclusive to this conflict anyway it doesn't make much sense to continue talking to you. Israel has never been convicted of committing genocide nor is any sane person accusing them of it. On July 29 2014 05:51 DinoMight wrote:On July 29 2014 04:26 Nyxisto wrote:
And given the large Arabic population of Israel today, how does the accusation that Israel is "ethnically cleansing the country" still make sense? 20.7% Arabs to 75.3% Jews in a country that is 65 years old on land that was previously near 100% Arabs (including Jewish arabs). So you're denying Israel's right to exist completely? It at least sounds like that's what you're implying. Bro i was hoping for you to reply and say something about the terrorism from the zionist not so long ago.. but not a single word.. could you please tell me your stand in this issue ? I'm not denying that some of the paramilitary groups used terrorism, but they were fighting for an independent state, after they had experienced the Holocaust in Europe. The Hamas is not a group a freedom fighters. They don't want peace, they want to kill every Jew they can find. It's in their charter, it's what everyone of their leaders has said. It's why they rejected the two state solution in 1947. On July 29 2014 06:31 EtherealBlade wrote:
This is ridiculous. They were not being exterminated on the European continent. Sweden, Spain, Switzerland, Turkey were all neutral countries. . No European country was willing to give refuge to a significant amount of Jews in Europe. That's precisely why 90% of them either migrated to Israel or the US. They rejected the two state solution because they had 100% of the land and someone told them hey, how about you give half of it to these people so they can form their own country. How do you think the US would respond if someone said "you know Tibetans are being opressed in China and they could really use their own country, why don't you give them Florida?" The answer would be "fuck off." You'd have said the same thing. If it's all about the law of the jungle what are we even discussing right now? On July 29 2014 06:42 DinoMight wrote:On July 29 2014 06:32 Nyxisto wrote:
I'm not denying that some of the paramilitary groups used terrorism, but they were fighting for an independent state, after they had experienced the Holocaust in Europe. So the holocaust is justification for Terrorism? Because from what I hear the Palestinians are also fighting for an independent state. They're not fighting for an Independent state, they're fighting for a Palestine without Israel. If all they wanted was an independent state all they'd need to do is to put their weapons down. Abu Marzouk, Hamas senior a few months ago: “We would have spared ourselves seven years of misery under the siege and two wars in 2008 and 2012 had we wanted to recognize Israel,” he said. Sourceedit: wrong guy The two blocks you've quoted perfectly answer each other. So why do you think the Palestinians don't accept peace? This. If I came to your house and said, "oy, this basement now belongs to this homeless family that really needs it..." how would you react? In the Palestinians eyes, their land was taken away from them. And now they're being driven into corners of it and forced to live in pitiful conditions. What do you expect them to do? Put down their guns and hope that Israel reverses a 65 year trend of abusing them? If my house was like ten thousand square miles big and owned by the British, I'd say "sure have some of it" Show nested quote +On July 29 2014 06:55 EtherealBlade wrote:On July 29 2014 06:47 Nyxisto wrote:On July 29 2014 06:38 DinoMight wrote:On July 29 2014 06:32 Nyxisto wrote:On July 29 2014 06:25 ImFromPortugal wrote:On July 29 2014 06:05 Nyxisto wrote:On July 29 2014 06:01 EtherealBlade wrote:
So is this self defense? Or genocide? It's war, but as you're blatantly ignoring the realities of modern warfare that are not exclusive to this conflict anyway it doesn't make much sense to continue talking to you. Israel has never been convicted of committing genocide nor is any sane person accusing them of it. On July 29 2014 05:51 DinoMight wrote:On July 29 2014 04:26 Nyxisto wrote:
And given the large Arabic population of Israel today, how does the accusation that Israel is "ethnically cleansing the country" still make sense? 20.7% Arabs to 75.3% Jews in a country that is 65 years old on land that was previously near 100% Arabs (including Jewish arabs). So you're denying Israel's right to exist completely? It at least sounds like that's what you're implying. Bro i was hoping for you to reply and say something about the terrorism from the zionist not so long ago.. but not a single word.. could you please tell me your stand in this issue ? I'm not denying that some of the paramilitary groups used terrorism, but they were fighting for an independent state, after they had experienced the Holocaust in Europe. The Hamas is not a group a freedom fighters. They don't want peace, they want to kill every Jew they can find. It's in their charter, it's what everyone of their leaders has said. It's why they rejected the two state solution in 1947. On July 29 2014 06:31 EtherealBlade wrote:
This is ridiculous. They were not being exterminated on the European continent. Sweden, Spain, Switzerland, Turkey were all neutral countries. . No European country was willing to give refuge to a significant amount of Jews in Europe. That's precisely why 90% of them either migrated to Israel or the US. They rejected the two state solution because they had 100% of the land and someone told them hey, how about you give half of it to these people so they can form their own country. How do you think the US would respond if someone said "you know Tibetans are being opressed in China and they could really use their own country, why don't you give them Florida?" The answer would be "fuck off." You'd have said the same thing. If it's all about the law of the jungle what are we even discussing right now? On July 29 2014 06:42 DinoMight wrote:On July 29 2014 06:32 Nyxisto wrote:
I'm not denying that some of the paramilitary groups used terrorism, but they were fighting for an independent state, after they had experienced the Holocaust in Europe. So the holocaust is justification for Terrorism? Because from what I hear the Palestinians are also fighting for an independent state. They're not fighting for an Independent state, they're fighting for a Palestine without Israel. If all they wanted was an independent state all they'd need to do is to put their weapons down. Abu Marzouk, Hamas senior a few months ago: “We would have spared ourselves seven years of misery under the siege and two wars in 2008 and 2012 had we wanted to recognize Israel,” he said. Sourceedit: wrong guy The two blocks you've quoted perfectly answer each other. So why do you think the Palestinians don't accept peace? There are Palestinians that would accept peace, but the Hamas certainly does not, they won't fight until every Israeli is gone.
Let's put this into perspective then, there are 3 million Turkish living in Germany.
One day they decide to carve out roughly one fourth of Germany because they desire an independent state. They start to bomb hotels, assassinate people and form armies. Do you give away one fourth of Germany, including the city you live in, to this new state, where it's declared that Germans cannot form the majority under any circumstance?
(no offense to any Turkish reader, I merely wanted to use a sizable minority that exists in Europe as a real life example)
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On July 29 2014 07:11 EtherealBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2014 07:04 Nyxisto wrote:On July 29 2014 07:00 DinoMight wrote:On July 29 2014 06:55 EtherealBlade wrote:On July 29 2014 06:47 Nyxisto wrote:On July 29 2014 06:38 DinoMight wrote:On July 29 2014 06:32 Nyxisto wrote:On July 29 2014 06:25 ImFromPortugal wrote:On July 29 2014 06:05 Nyxisto wrote:On July 29 2014 06:01 EtherealBlade wrote:
So is this self defense? Or genocide? It's war, but as you're blatantly ignoring the realities of modern warfare that are not exclusive to this conflict anyway it doesn't make much sense to continue talking to you. Israel has never been convicted of committing genocide nor is any sane person accusing them of it. On July 29 2014 05:51 DinoMight wrote:
[quote]
20.7% Arabs to 75.3% Jews in a country that is 65 years old on land that was previously near 100% Arabs (including Jewish arabs).
So you're denying Israel's right to exist completely? It at least sounds like that's what you're implying. Bro i was hoping for you to reply and say something about the terrorism from the zionist not so long ago.. but not a single word.. could you please tell me your stand in this issue ? I'm not denying that some of the paramilitary groups used terrorism, but they were fighting for an independent state, after they had experienced the Holocaust in Europe. The Hamas is not a group a freedom fighters. They don't want peace, they want to kill every Jew they can find. It's in their charter, it's what everyone of their leaders has said. It's why they rejected the two state solution in 1947. On July 29 2014 06:31 EtherealBlade wrote:
This is ridiculous. They were not being exterminated on the European continent. Sweden, Spain, Switzerland, Turkey were all neutral countries. . No European country was willing to give refuge to a significant amount of Jews in Europe. That's precisely why 90% of them either migrated to Israel or the US. They rejected the two state solution because they had 100% of the land and someone told them hey, how about you give half of it to these people so they can form their own country. How do you think the US would respond if someone said "you know Tibetans are being opressed in China and they could really use their own country, why don't you give them Florida?" The answer would be "fuck off." You'd have said the same thing. If it's all about the law of the jungle what are we even discussing right now? On July 29 2014 06:42 DinoMight wrote:On July 29 2014 06:32 Nyxisto wrote:
I'm not denying that some of the paramilitary groups used terrorism, but they were fighting for an independent state, after they had experienced the Holocaust in Europe. So the holocaust is justification for Terrorism? Because from what I hear the Palestinians are also fighting for an independent state. They're not fighting for an Independent state, they're fighting for a Palestine without Israel. If all they wanted was an independent state all they'd need to do is to put their weapons down. Abu Marzouk, Hamas senior a few months ago: “We would have spared ourselves seven years of misery under the siege and two wars in 2008 and 2012 had we wanted to recognize Israel,” he said. Sourceedit: wrong guy The two blocks you've quoted perfectly answer each other. So why do you think the Palestinians don't accept peace? This. If I came to your house and said, "oy, this basement now belongs to this homeless family that really needs it..." how would you react? In the Palestinians eyes, their land was taken away from them. And now they're being driven into corners of it and forced to live in pitiful conditions. What do you expect them to do? Put down their guns and hope that Israel reverses a 65 year trend of abusing them? If my house was like ten thousand square miles big and owned by the British, I'd say "sure have some of it" On July 29 2014 06:55 EtherealBlade wrote:On July 29 2014 06:47 Nyxisto wrote:On July 29 2014 06:38 DinoMight wrote:On July 29 2014 06:32 Nyxisto wrote:On July 29 2014 06:25 ImFromPortugal wrote:On July 29 2014 06:05 Nyxisto wrote:On July 29 2014 06:01 EtherealBlade wrote:
So is this self defense? Or genocide? It's war, but as you're blatantly ignoring the realities of modern warfare that are not exclusive to this conflict anyway it doesn't make much sense to continue talking to you. Israel has never been convicted of committing genocide nor is any sane person accusing them of it. On July 29 2014 05:51 DinoMight wrote:On July 29 2014 04:26 Nyxisto wrote:
And given the large Arabic population of Israel today, how does the accusation that Israel is "ethnically cleansing the country" still make sense? 20.7% Arabs to 75.3% Jews in a country that is 65 years old on land that was previously near 100% Arabs (including Jewish arabs). So you're denying Israel's right to exist completely? It at least sounds like that's what you're implying. Bro i was hoping for you to reply and say something about the terrorism from the zionist not so long ago.. but not a single word.. could you please tell me your stand in this issue ? I'm not denying that some of the paramilitary groups used terrorism, but they were fighting for an independent state, after they had experienced the Holocaust in Europe. The Hamas is not a group a freedom fighters. They don't want peace, they want to kill every Jew they can find. It's in their charter, it's what everyone of their leaders has said. It's why they rejected the two state solution in 1947. On July 29 2014 06:31 EtherealBlade wrote:
This is ridiculous. They were not being exterminated on the European continent. Sweden, Spain, Switzerland, Turkey were all neutral countries. . No European country was willing to give refuge to a significant amount of Jews in Europe. That's precisely why 90% of them either migrated to Israel or the US. They rejected the two state solution because they had 100% of the land and someone told them hey, how about you give half of it to these people so they can form their own country. How do you think the US would respond if someone said "you know Tibetans are being opressed in China and they could really use their own country, why don't you give them Florida?" The answer would be "fuck off." You'd have said the same thing. If it's all about the law of the jungle what are we even discussing right now? On July 29 2014 06:42 DinoMight wrote:On July 29 2014 06:32 Nyxisto wrote:
I'm not denying that some of the paramilitary groups used terrorism, but they were fighting for an independent state, after they had experienced the Holocaust in Europe. So the holocaust is justification for Terrorism? Because from what I hear the Palestinians are also fighting for an independent state. They're not fighting for an Independent state, they're fighting for a Palestine without Israel. If all they wanted was an independent state all they'd need to do is to put their weapons down. Abu Marzouk, Hamas senior a few months ago: “We would have spared ourselves seven years of misery under the siege and two wars in 2008 and 2012 had we wanted to recognize Israel,” he said. Sourceedit: wrong guy The two blocks you've quoted perfectly answer each other. So why do you think the Palestinians don't accept peace? There are Palestinians that would accept peace, but the Hamas certainly does not, they won't fight until every Israeli is gone. Let's put this into perspective then, there are 3 million Turkish living in Germany. One day they decide to carve out roughly one fourth of Germany because they desire an independent state. They start to bomb hotels, assassinate people and form armies. Do you give away one fourth of Germany, including the city you live in, to this new state, where it's declared that Germans cannot form the majority under any circumstance? (no offense to any Turkish reader, I merely wanted to use a sizable minority that exists in Europe as a real life example)
I obviously would not. But this analogy is very far off.A Palestinian state never existed. Germany is a sovereign country. And the Turkish immigrants here have not faced the history the European Jews have (which I think is not irrelevant in contrast to WhiteDog)
There never was a state of Palestine. It belonged to the Ottomans, the Brits, the Egyptians and Jordan.
I also agree with WhiteDog that the discussion won't go anywhere, Israel exists, it's not going away, and if dozens of historians can't agree on who is in the right we certainly won't.
The difference I see between the Hamas and Israel today is that Israel genuinely wants to defend its country. They may do that in a very harsh way but in the end they want peace. The Hamas just wants to do what the Arabic World already wanted 60 years ago, destroy Israel.
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On July 29 2014 07:09 WhiteDog wrote:
This is most of the problem with this conflict : you cannot discuss what is going without discussing what has been.
Nyxisto justify what has been because he is german and has been raised in the idea that the holocaust is the worst and that people who suffered the holocaust are heroes - which is ridiculous on so many point, the first being that most zionist did not suffered the holocaust.
And he refute Arabs right to fight on the same premises : the jews are sacred and arabs are filthy. That's the basis of his political analysis.
No, the real problem is that the struggle has been going on for so long that the generation that started it is slowly dying out. Those responsible can never be brought to justice now. It's necessary to discuss the past though, because only Israel distancing themselves from their founders and their ideologic grounds can prove their good faith but this is currently not happening.
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On July 29 2014 07:14 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2014 07:11 EtherealBlade wrote:On July 29 2014 07:04 Nyxisto wrote:On July 29 2014 07:00 DinoMight wrote:On July 29 2014 06:55 EtherealBlade wrote:On July 29 2014 06:47 Nyxisto wrote:On July 29 2014 06:38 DinoMight wrote:On July 29 2014 06:32 Nyxisto wrote:On July 29 2014 06:25 ImFromPortugal wrote:On July 29 2014 06:05 Nyxisto wrote:
[quote]
It's war, but as you're blatantly ignoring the realities of modern warfare that are not exclusive to this conflict anyway it doesn't make much sense to continue talking to you. Israel has never been convicted of committing genocide nor is any sane person accusing them of it.
[quote]
So you're denying Israel's right to exist completely? It at least sounds like that's what you're implying. Bro i was hoping for you to reply and say something about the terrorism from the zionist not so long ago.. but not a single word.. could you please tell me your stand in this issue ? I'm not denying that some of the paramilitary groups used terrorism, but they were fighting for an independent state, after they had experienced the Holocaust in Europe. The Hamas is not a group a freedom fighters. They don't want peace, they want to kill every Jew they can find. It's in their charter, it's what everyone of their leaders has said. It's why they rejected the two state solution in 1947. On July 29 2014 06:31 EtherealBlade wrote:
This is ridiculous. They were not being exterminated on the European continent. Sweden, Spain, Switzerland, Turkey were all neutral countries. . No European country was willing to give refuge to a significant amount of Jews in Europe. That's precisely why 90% of them either migrated to Israel or the US. They rejected the two state solution because they had 100% of the land and someone told them hey, how about you give half of it to these people so they can form their own country. How do you think the US would respond if someone said "you know Tibetans are being opressed in China and they could really use their own country, why don't you give them Florida?" The answer would be "fuck off." You'd have said the same thing. If it's all about the law of the jungle what are we even discussing right now? On July 29 2014 06:42 DinoMight wrote:On July 29 2014 06:32 Nyxisto wrote:
I'm not denying that some of the paramilitary groups used terrorism, but they were fighting for an independent state, after they had experienced the Holocaust in Europe. So the holocaust is justification for Terrorism? Because from what I hear the Palestinians are also fighting for an independent state. They're not fighting for an Independent state, they're fighting for a Palestine without Israel. If all they wanted was an independent state all they'd need to do is to put their weapons down. Abu Marzouk, Hamas senior a few months ago: “We would have spared ourselves seven years of misery under the siege and two wars in 2008 and 2012 had we wanted to recognize Israel,” he said. Sourceedit: wrong guy The two blocks you've quoted perfectly answer each other. So why do you think the Palestinians don't accept peace? This. If I came to your house and said, "oy, this basement now belongs to this homeless family that really needs it..." how would you react? In the Palestinians eyes, their land was taken away from them. And now they're being driven into corners of it and forced to live in pitiful conditions. What do you expect them to do? Put down their guns and hope that Israel reverses a 65 year trend of abusing them? If my house was like ten thousand square miles big and owned by the British, I'd say "sure have some of it" On July 29 2014 06:55 EtherealBlade wrote:On July 29 2014 06:47 Nyxisto wrote:On July 29 2014 06:38 DinoMight wrote:On July 29 2014 06:32 Nyxisto wrote:On July 29 2014 06:25 ImFromPortugal wrote:On July 29 2014 06:05 Nyxisto wrote:On July 29 2014 06:01 EtherealBlade wrote:
So is this self defense? Or genocide? It's war, but as you're blatantly ignoring the realities of modern warfare that are not exclusive to this conflict anyway it doesn't make much sense to continue talking to you. Israel has never been convicted of committing genocide nor is any sane person accusing them of it. On July 29 2014 05:51 DinoMight wrote:
[quote]
20.7% Arabs to 75.3% Jews in a country that is 65 years old on land that was previously near 100% Arabs (including Jewish arabs).
So you're denying Israel's right to exist completely? It at least sounds like that's what you're implying. Bro i was hoping for you to reply and say something about the terrorism from the zionist not so long ago.. but not a single word.. could you please tell me your stand in this issue ? I'm not denying that some of the paramilitary groups used terrorism, but they were fighting for an independent state, after they had experienced the Holocaust in Europe. The Hamas is not a group a freedom fighters. They don't want peace, they want to kill every Jew they can find. It's in their charter, it's what everyone of their leaders has said. It's why they rejected the two state solution in 1947. On July 29 2014 06:31 EtherealBlade wrote:
This is ridiculous. They were not being exterminated on the European continent. Sweden, Spain, Switzerland, Turkey were all neutral countries. . No European country was willing to give refuge to a significant amount of Jews in Europe. That's precisely why 90% of them either migrated to Israel or the US. They rejected the two state solution because they had 100% of the land and someone told them hey, how about you give half of it to these people so they can form their own country. How do you think the US would respond if someone said "you know Tibetans are being opressed in China and they could really use their own country, why don't you give them Florida?" The answer would be "fuck off." You'd have said the same thing. If it's all about the law of the jungle what are we even discussing right now? On July 29 2014 06:42 DinoMight wrote:On July 29 2014 06:32 Nyxisto wrote:
I'm not denying that some of the paramilitary groups used terrorism, but they were fighting for an independent state, after they had experienced the Holocaust in Europe. So the holocaust is justification for Terrorism? Because from what I hear the Palestinians are also fighting for an independent state. They're not fighting for an Independent state, they're fighting for a Palestine without Israel. If all they wanted was an independent state all they'd need to do is to put their weapons down. Abu Marzouk, Hamas senior a few months ago: “We would have spared ourselves seven years of misery under the siege and two wars in 2008 and 2012 had we wanted to recognize Israel,” he said. Sourceedit: wrong guy The two blocks you've quoted perfectly answer each other. So why do you think the Palestinians don't accept peace? There are Palestinians that would accept peace, but the Hamas certainly does not, they won't fight until every Israeli is gone. Let's put this into perspective then, there are 3 million Turkish living in Germany. One day they decide to carve out roughly one fourth of Germany because they desire an independent state. They start to bomb hotels, assassinate people and form armies. Do you give away one fourth of Germany, including the city you live in, to this new state, where it's declared that Germans cannot form the majority under any circumstance? (no offense to any Turkish reader, I merely wanted to use a sizable minority that exists in Europe as a real life example) I obviously would not. But this analogy is very far off. A Palestinian state never existed. Germany is a sovereign country. And the Turkish immigrants here have not faced the history the European Jews have (which I think is not irrelevant in contrast to WhiteDog) There never was a state of Palestine. It belonged to the Ottomans, the Brits, the Egyptians and Jordan. I also agree with WhiteDog that the discussion won't go anywhere, Israel exists, it's not going away, and if dozens of historians can't agree on who is in the right we certainly won't.
Those two weren't exactly independent at the start either... if you say Palestine has not existed then obviously the majority of the people should decide what state to belong. And the overwhelming majority did not want Israel.
Also you're forgetting history, Crusader states existed for centuries and were thought to be long lasting, then Saladin came and wiped them out pretty quick.
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EPT
