How I read that : 7 bullshit things for you not to be pro palestinians.
The 1 made me laugh I must add : 1. Why is everything so much worse when there are Jews involved?
Who care about the jews ? It's not about jews, it's about Israel.
And I want to remind everyone for the 50th time that there have been no proof on Hamas using human shield, while Israel has been condemn for it.
You are free to read it as you want, Whitedog.
Still, it is true that Assad killed 180,000 muslims and the fuss about it was 1/100 compared to now. What would have happened if Israel killed 180,000 muslims?
What are you talking about? He was almost attacked for it. I would not call that no fuss, it is actually much worse than what is happening in Gaza. USA just needed an excuse and Assad chemical weapons were that. It was very, very close.
And Israel is backed by USA, if it was backed by Russia and doing this there would be weapons mentioned already. Israel is just lucky it threw its cards with the stronger player that lets them kill civilians without a punishment. And all this talk is just talk of people whose governments cannot go to toilet without asking USA first.
How I read that : 7 bullshit things for you not to be pro palestinians.
The 1 made me laugh I must add : 1. Why is everything so much worse when there are Jews involved?
Who care about the jews ? It's not about jews, it's about Israel.
And I want to remind everyone for the 50th time that there have been no proof on Hamas using human shield, while Israel has been condemn for it.
You are free to read it as you want, Whitedog.
Still, it is true that Assad killed 180,000 muslims and the fuss about it was 1/100 compared to now. What would have happened if Israel killed 180,000 muslims?
But you put aside the fact that those are two completly different topics. What people are enraged at in the israelo palestinian conflict is that it is the last colonial question still living. It has been going on forever, a lot of the youngster have heard about it for all their lives.
Syria is a civil war, where atrocities are made, but in which it is very difficult to take side considering the freshness and the complexity of the situation.
Not to mention why do you say muslim ? Why do you have to assignate people to their religion ? It's palestinians, Israeli and Syrians. French killing french is not the same as french killing algerians, because of the colonial question.
So let me get this straight. You find it difficult to take sides in the Syrian conflict because of the complexity of the issue, but you have no problems with that when it comes to Israel? That is almost comical to be honest.
I find it comical to simplify the Syrian civil war to "Assad killed 180 000 muslims", then justify Israel mass murdering civilians because they have a right to defend themselves against rockets that killed 2 people over the last year.
This is something specific to White Dog, who has argued very simplistic in regard to the Israel conflict, but then suddenly declares another conflict as too complex to judge. I find neither of them simple nor do I follow the argument, that Israel is justified in their actions by something that happens in Syria.
I wanted to add something with what I said in Syria before : Since thirty years there have been a broad consensus on the two state solution in the israelo palestinian conflict - in 1990 UN general assemblee, the vote is 151 to 3 for the two state settlement (the US, Israeli and Dominica). That's pretty simple to me.
So if everyone wants the two state solution except Israel and USA, why does Hamas still maintain that they will never except Israel's existence? There are also several neighboring countries, that hold similar views. Again that doesn't justify what Israel is doing Gaza, but please don't pretend, that everyone there has accepted Israel. You know that the reality is more complex. Stop pretending everything is so clear and simple.
Hamas has recognised the Isreali State. They just don't recognise it as a Jewish state, and quite rightly too, as no other country recognises another country as solely for a an unidentified religious or ethnic group.
On July 29 2014 17:52 Velr wrote: This is not a war.
This is an army rolling over a City.
Yeah, quite.
Israel is declaring half of the neighbouring very densely populated and desolately poor country a no go zone, blockading it so no one can get out, sending in a full ground army killing thousands of innocent civilians (I’m sure they have got a few ‘bad guys’ too), using highly inaccurate artillery, tank and naval bombardments when they have highly sophisticated and far more accurate weapons, bombing hospitals, schools and UN declared safe zones (all be it probably/I hope not deliberately) and indiscriminately destroying homes and vital infrastructure such as water supply and power plants and the lively hoods of most who live there making the already miserable life’s of those who survive even worse.
Too many people seem to treat this situation as one or the other you have to pick a side. It’s like there is no middle ground, one side has to be good and the other evil when I speak to some people about this. But no one could ever justify what Israel is doing in Gazza. I am not saying that as a supporter of Hamas. Its equally true that no one could ever justify what they have been doing firing rockets at innocent civilians or at least with so little guidance at military targets they are far more likely to hit innocent civilians. I understand the Palestinian anger at what Israel has subjected them to over the years but firing rockets at civilians can’t be the only way to make your point. If anything it just gets them labelled terrorists and in Israeli eyes justifies action taken against them.
What I don’t understand is why USA supports Israel to the end regardless of what they do. The situation is obviously completely different but is there no comparison to be drawn at all between the US condemning Putin and Russia for the consequences of arming the rebels in Ukraine and the US arming the Israel and the consequences of what the Israelis’ have been doing with those arms. You can make the point that the Ukrainian rebels are designated a terrorist group by the country they operate in whilst Israel is a nation state. But doesn’t that just make it worse that a nation state would engage in this kind of outrage against humanity. The US should be looking at this situation and thinking this is making us look terrible to the outside world this military action and killing is a direct result of us arming the Israeli military.
On July 29 2014 21:35 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Hamas has recognised the Isreali State. They just don't recognise it as a Jewish state, and quite rightly too, as no other country recognises another country as solely for a an unidentified religious or ethnic group.
And please read a bit about Hamas. They deny the existence of the Holocaust and claim that Israel is seeking to conquer the entire region:
"Today it is Palestine, tomorrow it will be one country or another. The Zionist plan is limitless. After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."
Hamas is not a simple resistance movement, that just wants to create a Palestinian state and life in peace with their neighbors. There is a legitimate claim for the Palestinians to create their own state, but Hamas are not good emissaries of that claim.
On July 29 2014 21:35 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Hamas has recognised the Isreali State. They just don't recognise it as a Jewish state, and quite rightly too, as no other country recognises another country as solely for a an unidentified religious or ethnic group.
"Today it is Palestine, tomorrow it will be one country or another. The Zionist plan is limitless. After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."
Hamas is not a simple resistance movement, that just wants to create a Palestinian state and life in peace with their neighbors. There is a legitimate claim for the Palestinians to create their own state, but Hamas are not good emissaries of that claim.
They don't have a right to deny the holocaust? They way the israelis are destroying their houses and building more settlements and be an hostile force to almost all their neighbors seems to justify their believes that they are trying to grab more land for themselves.
On July 29 2014 21:35 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Hamas has recognised the Isreali State. They just don't recognise it as a Jewish state, and quite rightly too, as no other country recognises another country as solely for a an unidentified religious or ethnic group.
And please read a bit about Hamas. They deny the existence of the Holocaust and claim that Israel is seeking to conquer the entire region:
"Today it is Palestine, tomorrow it will be one country or another. The Zionist plan is limitless. After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."
Hamas is not a simple resistance movement, that just wants to create a Palestinian state and life in peace with their neighbors. There is a legitimate claim for the Palestinians to create their own state, but Hamas are not good emissaries of that claim.
They don't have a right to deny the holocaust? They way the israelis are destroying their houses and building more settlements and be an hostile force to almost all their neighbors seems to justify their believes that they are trying to grab more land for themselves.
I can claim to be the king of england. People just won't take me serious. So if they want to have a serious discussion with Israel and broker peace, they should start by accepting historic facts. That's why are they not good emissaries of the Palestinian cause.
On July 29 2014 17:52 Velr wrote: This is not a war.
This is an army rolling over a City.
Yeah, quite.
Israel is declaring half of the neighbouring very densely populated and desolately poor country a no go zone, blockading it so no one can get out, sending in a full ground army killing thousands of innocent civilians (I’m sure they have got a few ‘bad guys’ too), using highly inaccurate artillery, tank and naval bombardments when they have highly sophisticated and far more accurate weapons, bombing hospitals, schools and UN declared safe zones (all be it probably/I hope not deliberately) and indiscriminately destroying homes and vital infrastructure such as water supply and power plants and the lively hoods of most who live there making the already miserable life’s of those who survive even worse.
Too many people seem to treat this situation as one or the other you have to pick a side. It’s like there is no middle ground, one side has to be good and the other evil when I speak to some people about this. But no one could ever justify what Israel is doing in Gazza. I am not saying that as a supporter of Hamas. Its equally true that no one could ever justify what they have been doing firing rockets at innocent civilians or at least with so little guidance at military targets they are far more likely to hit innocent civilians. I understand the Palestinian anger at what Israel has subjected them to over the years but firing rockets at civilians can’t be the only way to make your point. If anything it just gets them labelled terrorists and in Israeli eyes justifies action taken against them.
What I don’t understand is why USA supports Israel to the end regardless of what they do. The situation is obviously completely different but is there no comparison to be drawn at all between the US condemning Putin and Russia for the consequences of arming the rebels in Ukraine and the US arming the Israel and the consequences of what the Israelis’ have been doing with those arms. You can make the point that the Ukrainian rebels are designated a terrorist group by the country they operate in whilst Israel is a nation state. But doesn’t that just make it worse that a nation state would engage in this kind of outrage against humanity. The US should be looking at this situation and thinking this is making us look terrible to the outside world this military action and killing is a direct result of us arming the Israeli military.
I think Obama has expressed concern about Israels actions but since the republicans are ultra-pro Israel, he would be very hard pressed to just denounce them. Same, to some degree goes for Ukraine, where republicans are talking thunder against Russia and critizise Obama for completely dismissing putting boots on the ground. In other words: A lot of the political and diplomatic actions are deeply domestic and not much real foreign policy!
When it comes to distinction between armed militias and a countrys army, I would say the difference is immense. An army in a country should have its citizens in mind (unless their veto-sugardaddy protects them apparently!). An armed militia, not as much. A countrys army has a political leadership you can negotiate with. A militia, not so much. A countrys actions are bound by international laws (unless their veto-sugardaddy protects them apparently!). A militia, not so much.
So militias should not be armed and should not be legitimized before they are willing to use the political process ahead of military force, in which case you can discuss how much militia is left. The things happening in Libya was pretty unfortunate. The israeli army is an army of a sovereign cooperating state. Therefore it holds some legitimacy. The problem I see, is that Israel denies recognising Palestine as a separate state, but at the same time reserves the right to use air bombardment. If they had recognised Palestine as a separate state, they could claim a war. Now they are bombarding their own land. It is very unfortunate that Hamas digs tunnels and they are legitimate to ruin. It is unfortunate that Hamas sends rockets from Gaza at seemingly random direction, hitting civilians and they are a legitimate target to eliminate the threat of. But air bombardments always end in civilian losses. It seems disproportionate.
Gaza's only power plant has been knocked offline following an Israeli strike. Reports vary, but it appears that Israeli tank shells caused a fuel bunker at the plant to explode. Gaza, already short on electricity despite imports from Israel and Egpyt, now faces widening blackouts.
On July 29 2014 21:35 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Hamas has recognised the Isreali State. They just don't recognise it as a Jewish state, and quite rightly too, as no other country recognises another country as solely for a an unidentified religious or ethnic group.
And please read a bit about Hamas. They deny the existence of the Holocaust and claim that Israel is seeking to conquer the entire region:
"Today it is Palestine, tomorrow it will be one country or another. The Zionist plan is limitless. After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."
Hamas is not a simple resistance movement, that just wants to create a Palestinian state and life in peace with their neighbors. There is a legitimate claim for the Palestinians to create their own state, but Hamas are not good emissaries of that claim.
They don't have a right to deny the holocaust? They way the israelis are destroying their houses and building more settlements and be an hostile force to almost all their neighbors seems to justify their believes that they are trying to grab more land for themselves.
On July 29 2014 19:16 Broetchenholer wrote: No, not right now. But if you stop the settlements, lift the embargo, stop treating the citizen of westbank like criminals and grantz real humanitarian aid, not just what you have to do, then do this for 20 years, the Hamas will probably not exist anymore.
On July 29 2014 21:35 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Hamas has recognised the Isreali State. They just don't recognise it as a Jewish state, and quite rightly too, as no other country recognises another country as solely for a an unidentified religious or ethnic group.
And please read a bit about Hamas. They deny the existence of the Holocaust and claim that Israel is seeking to conquer the entire region:
"Today it is Palestine, tomorrow it will be one country or another. The Zionist plan is limitless. After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."
Hamas is not a simple resistance movement, that just wants to create a Palestinian state and life in peace with their neighbors. There is a legitimate claim for the Palestinians to create their own state, but Hamas are not good emissaries of that claim.
They don't have a right to deny the holocaust? They way the israelis are destroying their houses and building more settlements and be an hostile force to almost all their neighbors seems to justify their believes that they are trying to grab more land for themselves.
The right to deny the holocaust? wtf???
Why Hamas' opinion on the holocaust matters in any way is beyond my understanding. They have nothing to do with it, and are free to think whatever they may want.
They don't have a right to deny the holocaust? They way the israelis are destroying their houses and building more settlements and be an hostile force to almost all their neighbors seems to justify their believes that they are trying to grab more land for themselves.
Sure, but I have the right to call them idiots and fools. People are allowed to believe stupid things and we are allowed to treat them like stupid people. The rest of the stuff is the fault of both parties for being aggressive and unwilling to live with each other.
Yeah, just like when they completely withdrew from Gaza, that really weakened the Hamas! Oh wait it didn't they just took over the whole god-damn thing and ramped their rocket attacks up by a few hundred percent.
I have the feeling the world has gotten appeasement addicted. Appease our dictator dear leader Vladimir Putin, our beloved Jihadists in the middle-east and why not Kim Jong-Un while we're at it? I start to think that they're all just misunderstood freedom fighters who only have the best of intentions.
On July 29 2014 21:35 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Hamas has recognised the Isreali State. They just don't recognise it as a Jewish state, and quite rightly too, as no other country recognises another country as solely for a an unidentified religious or ethnic group.
And please read a bit about Hamas. They deny the existence of the Holocaust and claim that Israel is seeking to conquer the entire region:
"Today it is Palestine, tomorrow it will be one country or another. The Zionist plan is limitless. After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."
Hamas is not a simple resistance movement, that just wants to create a Palestinian state and life in peace with their neighbors. There is a legitimate claim for the Palestinians to create their own state, but Hamas are not good emissaries of that claim.
They don't have a right to deny the holocaust? They way the israelis are destroying their houses and building more settlements and be an hostile force to almost all their neighbors seems to justify their believes that they are trying to grab more land for themselves.
They have the right to deny the holocaust, and call themselves freedom fighters. Absolutely.
On July 29 2014 21:35 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Hamas has recognised the Isreali State. They just don't recognise it as a Jewish state, and quite rightly too, as no other country recognises another country as solely for a an unidentified religious or ethnic group.
And please read a bit about Hamas. They deny the existence of the Holocaust and claim that Israel is seeking to conquer the entire region:
"Today it is Palestine, tomorrow it will be one country or another. The Zionist plan is limitless. After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."
Hamas is not a simple resistance movement, that just wants to create a Palestinian state and life in peace with their neighbors. There is a legitimate claim for the Palestinians to create their own state, but Hamas are not good emissaries of that claim.
They don't have a right to deny the holocaust? They way the israelis are destroying their houses and building more settlements and be an hostile force to almost all their neighbors seems to justify their believes that they are trying to grab more land for themselves.
The right to deny the holocaust? wtf???
Why Hamas' opinion on the holocaust matters in any way is beyond my understanding. They have nothing to do with it, and are free to think whatever they may want.
If one thinks the holocaust didn't happen, that person should just be treated like the ones that were responsible for it. (my opinion)
Why it matters? Because that's the whole justification for the existance of Israel. The idea behind denying the holocaust is to deny Isreal the right of existance. To justify that extinction of Israel.
On July 29 2014 21:35 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Hamas has recognised the Isreali State. They just don't recognise it as a Jewish state, and quite rightly too, as no other country recognises another country as solely for a an unidentified religious or ethnic group.
And please read a bit about Hamas. They deny the existence of the Holocaust and claim that Israel is seeking to conquer the entire region:
"Today it is Palestine, tomorrow it will be one country or another. The Zionist plan is limitless. After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."
Hamas is not a simple resistance movement, that just wants to create a Palestinian state and life in peace with their neighbors. There is a legitimate claim for the Palestinians to create their own state, but Hamas are not good emissaries of that claim.
They don't have a right to deny the holocaust? They way the israelis are destroying their houses and building more settlements and be an hostile force to almost all their neighbors seems to justify their believes that they are trying to grab more land for themselves.
The right to deny the holocaust? wtf???
Why Hamas' opinion on the holocaust matters in any way is beyond my understanding. They have nothing to do with it, and are free to think whatever they may want.
If one thinks the holocaust didn't happen, that person should just be treated like the ones that were responsible for it. (my opinion)
Why it matters? Because that's the whole justification for the existance of Israel. The idea behind denying the holocaust is to deny Isreal the right of existance. To justify that extinction of Israel.
The Holocaust is irrelevant to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.
Let me clarify:
Zionism was an established movement long before the Holocaust. Even before World War I, Zionists were discussing the idea of a state exclusively for Jews. The British tried to create a state for the Jews (mainly to rid themselves of their own Jewish population). This faced resistance from many British Jews who saw themselves as Englishmen, not simply Jews. Fast forward to WWII and the Holocaust. Finally, Zionism got the catalyst it needed to succeed. Within 4 years of WWII and the downfall of the Nazi regime, Israel was created.
The problem was that Israel was created as an exclusive Jewish state on top of land that was already inhabited by other people (Arabs, Muslims, Christians, Jews, Arab Jews).
When Israel says that you "deny our right to exist," what they're doing is tapping into the guilty feeling that the world has about the Holocaust and using it to justify their occupation of, essentially, Arab land. They're twisting the phrase to mean "you deny the Jewish people" the right to exist, LIKE THE NAZIS!
I think it's 100% possible to deny Israel's right to exist and not be anti-semetic or prejudice against Jews in any way. I think the Holocaust was a terrible tragedy in which millions of innocent Jews, gays, mentally retarded people, gypsies, Russians, Poles, etc. died. But Israel's existence as a country is not justified simply by the suffering of the Jews. Who's to say that Gypsies or mentally retarded people shouldn't have their own country? This is a political decision, and where the line is drawn for me between the two.
On July 29 2014 21:35 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Hamas has recognised the Isreali State. They just don't recognise it as a Jewish state, and quite rightly too, as no other country recognises another country as solely for a an unidentified religious or ethnic group.
And please read a bit about Hamas. They deny the existence of the Holocaust and claim that Israel is seeking to conquer the entire region:
"Today it is Palestine, tomorrow it will be one country or another. The Zionist plan is limitless. After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."
Hamas is not a simple resistance movement, that just wants to create a Palestinian state and life in peace with their neighbors. There is a legitimate claim for the Palestinians to create their own state, but Hamas are not good emissaries of that claim.
They don't have a right to deny the holocaust? They way the israelis are destroying their houses and building more settlements and be an hostile force to almost all their neighbors seems to justify their believes that they are trying to grab more land for themselves.
The right to deny the holocaust? wtf???
Why Hamas' opinion on the holocaust matters in any way is beyond my understanding. They have nothing to do with it, and are free to think whatever they may want.
If one thinks the holocaust didn't happen, that person should just be treated like the ones that were responsible for it. (my opinion)
Why it matters? Because that's the whole justification for the existance of Israel. The idea behind denying the holocaust is to deny Isreal the right of existance. To justify that extinction of Israel.
And here this post, clarifies why it's worthless to argue with zionists, and also why it's the most dangerous ideology still surviving in the world.
On July 29 2014 23:25 Nyxisto wrote: Yeah, just like when they completely withdrew from Gaza, that really weakened the Hamas! Oh wait it didn't they just took over the whole god-damn thing and ramped their rocket attacks up by a few hundred percent.
I have the feeling the world has gotten appeasement addicted. Appease our dictator dear leader Vladimir Putin, our beloved Jihadists in the middle-east and why not Kim Jong-Un while we're at it? I start to think that they're all just misunderstood freedom fighters who only have the best of intentions.
Your cant put an entire population in a cage and expect them not to fight back. You cant be putting in there country without permission and expect to be 100% fine with it. You cant be viewed by Palestine, rightfully or wrongfully, as a country that doesn't seem to care how many Palestinean civilians it kills and not expect to foster a new generation that hates you.
If you dismantled Hamas another one will form within a few years with the exact same goals because the fundamentals that allow it to exist do not change. You have the biggest stick in the region by far but as long as you continue trying to beat Palestine into submission with it they will keep trying to fight and the sad thing is everyone who isn't from the region knows what the peace agreement will look like but at the moment you get the feeling that neither side is willing to give up what they need to up in order to achieve it so that's why no one is jumping to really support Israel this time.
EPT
