On July 29 2014 23:25 Nyxisto wrote: Yeah, just like when they completely withdrew from Gaza, that really weakened the Hamas! Oh wait it didn't they just took over the whole god-damn thing and ramped their rocket attacks up by a few hundred percent.
I have the feeling the world has gotten appeasement addicted. Appease our dictator dear leader Vladimir Putin, our beloved Jihadists in the middle-east and why not Kim Jong-Un while we're at it? I start to think that they're all just misunderstood freedom fighters who only have the best of intentions.
Do you have the slightest idea what life in Gaza is like? It's a 40x8 km refugee camp, and it's been cited a million times in the thread that it effectively still counts as an occupied territory. Israel graciously dismantled some illegal settlements in Gaza, that's true at least.
On July 29 2014 21:35 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Hamas has recognised the Isreali State. They just don't recognise it as a Jewish state, and quite rightly too, as no other country recognises another country as solely for a an unidentified religious or ethnic group.
And please read a bit about Hamas. They deny the existence of the Holocaust and claim that Israel is seeking to conquer the entire region:
"Today it is Palestine, tomorrow it will be one country or another. The Zionist plan is limitless. After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."
Hamas is not a simple resistance movement, that just wants to create a Palestinian state and life in peace with their neighbors. There is a legitimate claim for the Palestinians to create their own state, but Hamas are not good emissaries of that claim.
They don't have a right to deny the holocaust? They way the israelis are destroying their houses and building more settlements and be an hostile force to almost all their neighbors seems to justify their believes that they are trying to grab more land for themselves.
The right to deny the holocaust? wtf???
Why Hamas' opinion on the holocaust matters in any way is beyond my understanding. They have nothing to do with it, and are free to think whatever they may want.
If one thinks the holocaust didn't happen, that person should just be treated like the ones that were responsible for it. (my opinion)
Why it matters? Because that's the whole justification for the existance of Israel. The idea behind denying the holocaust is to deny Isreal the right of existance. To justify that extinction of Israel.
The Holocaust is irrelevant to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.
Let me clarify:
Zionism was an established movement long before the Holocaust. Even before World War I, Zionists were discussing the idea of a state exclusively for Jews. The British tried to create a state for the Jews (mainly to rid themselves of their own Jewish population). This faced resistance from many British Jews who saw themselves as Englishmen, not simply Jews. Fast forward to WWII and the Holocaust. Finally, Zionism got the catalyst it needed to succeed. Within 4 years of WWII and the downfall of the Nazi regime, Israel was created.
The problem was that Israel was created as an exclusive Jewish state on top of land that was already inhabited by other people (Arabs, Muslims, Christians, Jews, Arab Jews).
When Israel says that you "deny our right to exist," what they're doing is tapping into the guilty feeling that the world has about the Holocaust and using it to justify their occupation of, essentially, Arab land. They're twisting the phrase to mean "you deny the Jewish people" the right to exist, LIKE THE NAZIS!
I think it's 100% possible to deny Israel's right to exist and not be anti-semetic or prejudice against Jews in any way. I think the Holocaust was a terrible tragedy in which millions of innocent Jews, gays, mentally retarded people, gypsies, Russians, Poles, etc. died. But Israel's existence as a country is not justified simply by the suffering of the Jews. Who's to say that Gypsies shouldn't have their own country? This is a political decision, and where the line is drawn for me between the two.
The support to the Zionist cause was rather small before the Holocaust and the events leading up to it. Also Israel is not exclusively Jewish and if it comes to freedom of religion, they are light years ahead of most other nations in the middle east. Also the suffering of the Jews doesn't justify the existence of the Jewish state. It's more the several thousands of years of history. It's not like the Zionist picked up a map and said: "Let's go there. I always wanted to settle close to the dead sea."
On July 29 2014 21:35 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Hamas has recognised the Isreali State. They just don't recognise it as a Jewish state, and quite rightly too, as no other country recognises another country as solely for a an unidentified religious or ethnic group.
And please read a bit about Hamas. They deny the existence of the Holocaust and claim that Israel is seeking to conquer the entire region:
"Today it is Palestine, tomorrow it will be one country or another. The Zionist plan is limitless. After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."
Hamas is not a simple resistance movement, that just wants to create a Palestinian state and life in peace with their neighbors. There is a legitimate claim for the Palestinians to create their own state, but Hamas are not good emissaries of that claim.
They don't have a right to deny the holocaust? They way the israelis are destroying their houses and building more settlements and be an hostile force to almost all their neighbors seems to justify their believes that they are trying to grab more land for themselves.
The right to deny the holocaust? wtf???
Why Hamas' opinion on the holocaust matters in any way is beyond my understanding. They have nothing to do with it, and are free to think whatever they may want.
If one thinks the holocaust didn't happen, that person should just be treated like the ones that were responsible for it. (my opinion)
Why it matters? Because that's the whole justification for the existance of Israel. The idea behind denying the holocaust is to deny Isreal the right of existance. To justify that extinction of Israel.
The Holocaust is irrelevant to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.
Let me clarify:
Zionism was an established movement long before the Holocaust. Even before World War I, Zionists were discussing the idea of a state exclusively for Jews. The British tried to create a state for the Jews (mainly to rid themselves of their own Jewish population). This faced resistance from many British Jews who saw themselves as Englishmen, not simply Jews. Fast forward to WWII and the Holocaust. Finally, Zionism got the catalyst it needed to succeed. Within 4 years of WWII and the downfall of the Nazi regime, Israel was created.
The problem was that Israel was created as an exclusive Jewish state on top of land that was already inhabited by other people (Arabs, Muslims, Christians, Jews, Arab Jews).
When Israel says that you "deny our right to exist," what they're doing is tapping into the guilty feeling that the world has about the Holocaust and using it to justify their occupation of, essentially, Arab land. They're twisting the phrase to mean "you deny the Jewish people" the right to exist, LIKE THE NAZIS!
I think it's 100% possible to deny Israel's right to exist and not be anti-semetic or prejudice against Jews in any way. I think the Holocaust was a terrible tragedy in which millions of innocent Jews, gays, mentally retarded people, gypsies, Russians, Poles, etc. died. But Israel's existence as a country is not justified simply by the suffering of the Jews. Who's to say that Gypsies or mentally retarded people shouldn't have their own country? This is a political decision, and where the line is drawn for me between the two.
I am fully aware of the history of israel and why this conflict started. Nevertheless, noone in the world has the right to deny facts. Everybody who is of another opinion can come to me and Im going to deny that he is a living being, so my bullet to his head is no crime.
On July 29 2014 10:14 Nyxisto wrote: I've never praised terrorism, all I'm arguing is that 1) I don't understand why the internal struggle between the British and the Israelis is relevant, and 2) why the Palestinian's apparently are willing to live under British control while living with Jewish neighbours is apparently so outrageous that they needed to start a war two days after the founding of Israel.
seriously? You don't understand how a colonized people will be pissed off to find that when the colonizers leave, they give the land they colonized to a different people?
The thing is, historically, this type of thing normally has the following happen: the more powerful aggressor takes control of an area. There is some resistance. Then the resistance is quashed, because the more powerful aggressor is more powerful. Then a new status quo is established, where the oppressed people largely accept their new status. And then it stays that way until the more powerful oppressor decides to further oppress. Then you get resistance, quashing of resistance, new established status quo worse than the previous one. There are countless colonies that followed a similar pattern to this - up until the 1960s when various historical developments had caused European powers to accept that colonization was pretty damn immoral which helped facilitate the decolonization. Anyway.
Israel-Palestine follows this same pattern. Israel is the more powerful, and it is the aggressor. Palestinians by large have accepted many of the previous status quos, but Israel keeps fucking settling new areas and taking more and more land. What happened between 1948 and 1965 IS largely irrelevant for today's discussion - you think Palestinians wouldn't accept going back to 1965 borders? That they are so hell-bent on seeing Israel destroyed that they wouldn't take that? It's like, I know you've seen this map before, but I don't see how you can ignore it: + Show Spoiler +
And not only does this showcase the loss of land - it also shows how it's not connected anymore, which considering how they're not allowed to freely travel, is massively fucking inconveniencing and another one of those "new rules" which at first created resistance but which then became part of the "accepted status quo". For me, the worst part of this conflict is not the loss of life. It's the complete loss of humanity and dignity imposed upon millions of people. I understand that it's impossible for me to relate to the fear of the israelis, caused by centuries - if not millenia of persecution and a current state of being surrounded by enemies, but when I try to place myself in the mind of an Israeli and the mind of a Palestinian, in terms of like, deciding which destiny I would rather have for myself or my children, or in terms of which existence I think is more plagued by perpetual fear, it's not even fucking close, and while I don't want to belittle the problems of the Israeli people nor judge them for acting in a way that I perceive as counter-intuitive, it just.. it's unfathomable to me how people can look at this conflict, now, today, and think that Israel is the victim here.
It's like, I've been avoiding this thread deliberately. Now I felt like I was in an exceptionally calm state of mind before I started writing the post. But just through thinking about it for the duration of the post-writing, I can feel myself be angrier now, because it's just.. it makes no sense that smart, intelligent people I respect actually support Israel's actions here. I'm not even talking about the past 40 years or whatever. Just look at what is happening now.. Or the previous war. I don't get it.
On July 29 2014 21:35 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Hamas has recognised the Isreali State. They just don't recognise it as a Jewish state, and quite rightly too, as no other country recognises another country as solely for a an unidentified religious or ethnic group.
And please read a bit about Hamas. They deny the existence of the Holocaust and claim that Israel is seeking to conquer the entire region:
"Today it is Palestine, tomorrow it will be one country or another. The Zionist plan is limitless. After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."
Hamas is not a simple resistance movement, that just wants to create a Palestinian state and life in peace with their neighbors. There is a legitimate claim for the Palestinians to create their own state, but Hamas are not good emissaries of that claim.
They don't have a right to deny the holocaust? They way the israelis are destroying their houses and building more settlements and be an hostile force to almost all their neighbors seems to justify their believes that they are trying to grab more land for themselves.
The right to deny the holocaust? wtf???
Why Hamas' opinion on the holocaust matters in any way is beyond my understanding. They have nothing to do with it, and are free to think whatever they may want.
If one thinks the holocaust didn't happen, that person should just be treated like the ones that were responsible for it. (my opinion)
Why it matters? Because that's the whole justification for the existance of Israel. The idea behind denying the holocaust is to deny Isreal the right of existance. To justify that extinction of Israel.
And here this post, clarifies why it's worthless to argue with zionists, and also why it's the most dangerous ideology still surviving in the world.
are you actually serious when you write stuff like this?
@LiquidDrone This map you're posting is intentionally misleading and has been going around the internet a lot. Firstly, the "southern triangle" is nearly completely deserted and virtually no one is living there(which is true for quite a lot of the territory). Just colouring it all in green literally screams. "look here lived a bazillion Palestinians! now they only have these tiny pieces of land! How cruel!" Secondly this map seems to ignore that what has been 'Palestinian' was actually Egyptian and Jordan, why act like there was some kind of State of Palestine? Not to mention that most of the land gains Israel made happened during wars in which they were actually not the aggressor.
What happened between 1948 and 1965 IS largely irrelevant for today's discussion - you think Palestinians wouldn't accept going back to 1965 borders? That they are so hell-bent on seeing Israel destroyed that they wouldn't take that?
Well, they say it on a nearly weekly basis: Abu Marzouk, Hamas senior:
“We would have spared ourselves seven years of misery under the siege and two wars in 2008 and 2012 had we wanted to recognize Israel,”
The Hamas charter:
the prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! This will not apply to the Gharqad, which is a Jewish tree he prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! This will not apply to the Gharqad, which is a Jewish tree
(I know I'm repeating myself, but I don't understand how people still think that the Hamas would want to live in peace)
On July 29 2014 10:14 Nyxisto wrote: I've never praised terrorism, all I'm arguing is that 1) I don't understand why the internal struggle between the British and the Israelis is relevant, and 2) why the Palestinian's apparently are willing to live under British control while living with Jewish neighbours is apparently so outrageous that they needed to start a war two days after the founding of Israel.
seriously? You don't understand how a colonized people will be pissed off to find that when the colonizers leave, they give the land they colonized to a different people?
The thing is, historically, this type of thing normally has the following happen: the more powerful aggressor takes control of an area. There is some resistance. Then the resistance is quashed, because the more powerful aggressor is more powerful. Then a new status quo is established, where the oppressed people largely accept their new status. And then it stays that way until the more powerful oppressor decides to further oppress. Then you get resistance, quashing of resistance, new established status quo worse than the previous one. There are countless colonies that followed a similar pattern to this - up until the 1960s when various historical developments had caused European powers to accept that colonization was pretty damn immoral which helped facilitate the decolonization. Anyway.
Israel-Palestine follows this same pattern. Israel is the more powerful, and it is the aggressor. Palestinians by large have accepted many of the previous status quos, but Israel keeps fucking settling new areas and taking more and more land. What happened between 1948 and 1965 IS largely irrelevant for today's discussion - you think Palestinians wouldn't accept going back to 1965 borders? That they are so hell-bent on seeing Israel destroyed that they wouldn't take that? It's like, I know you've seen this map before, but I don't see how you can ignore it: + Show Spoiler +
And not only does this showcase the loss of land - it also shows how it's not connected anymore, which considering how they're not allowed to freely travel, is massively fucking inconveniencing and another one of those "new rules" which at first created resistance but which then became part of the "accepted status quo". For me, the worst part of this conflict is not the loss of life. It's the complete loss of humanity and dignity imposed upon millions of people. I understand that it's impossible for me to relate to the fear of the israelis, caused by centuries - if not millenia of persecution and a current state of being surrounded by enemies, but when I try to place myself in the mind of an Israeli and the mind of a Palestinian, in terms of like, deciding which destiny I would rather have for myself or my children, or in terms of which existence I think is more plagued by perpetual fear, it's not even fucking close, and while I don't want to belittle the problems of the Israeli people nor judge them for acting in a way that I perceive as counter-intuitive, it just.. it's unfathomable to me how people can look at this conflict, now, today, and think that Israel is the victim here.
It's like, I've been avoiding this thread deliberately. Now I felt like I was in an exceptionally calm state of mind before I started writing the post. But just through thinking about it for the duration of the post-writing, I can feel myself be angrier now, because it's just.. it makes no sense that smart, intelligent people I respect actually support Israel's actions here. I'm not even talking about the past 40 years or whatever. Just look at what is happening now.. Or the previous war. I don't get it.
The victims are the civilians on BOTH sides. I'm not trying to defend what Israel is doing. But the world is complicated and on BOTH sides there are people that benefit from this conflict, because it helps them garner support for their extremist agenda.
Yes the map is relevant, but if you argue that Israeli aggression justifies violence against civilians, the argument would also go the other way. Palestinians just happen to be the weaker side. That doesn't automatically make them right. The way Hamas is fighting back is wrong. The claim and the suffering is fully justified, but not the way that Hamas has chosen to defend that claim.
On July 30 2014 00:18 Nyxisto wrote: @LiquidDrone This map you're posting is intentionally misleading and has been going around the internet a lot. Firstly, the "southern triangle" is nearly completely deserted and virtually no one is living there(which is true for quite a lot of the territory). Just colouring it all in green literally screams. "look here lived a bazillion Palestinians! now they only have these tiny pieces of land! How cruel!" Secondly this map seems to ignore that what has been 'Palestinian' was actually Egyptian and Jordan, why act like there was some kind of State of Palestine? Not to mention that most of the land gains Israel made happened during wars in which they were actually not the aggressor.
As a rebuttal this is pretty much completely unconvincing. It basically reads as "well yes, Israel has taken a fuckton of land, but there are some examples amidst the massively obvious general trend which might take the edge off what you're looking at"
On July 30 2014 00:18 Nyxisto wrote: @LiquidDrone This map you're posting is intentionally misleading and has been going around the internet a lot. Firstly, the "southern triangle" is nearly completely deserted and virtually no one is living there(which is true for quite a lot of the territory). Just colouring it all in green literally screams. "look here lived a bazillion Palestinians! now they only have these tiny pieces of land! How cruel!" Secondly this map seems to ignore that what has been 'Palestinian' was actually Egyptian and Jordan, why act like there was some kind of State of Palestine? Not to mention that most of the land gains Israel made happened during wars in which they were actually not the aggressor.
As a rebuttal this is pretty much completely unconvincing. It basically reads as "well yes, Israel has taken a fuckton of land, but there are some examples amidst the massively obvious general trend which might take the edge off what you're looking at"
No, this map is completely distorting the picture. If you're making a map in regards to state lines, then you can't just write PALESTINE all over the map. If you're referring to the Palestinian people, then the map also is completely misleading, because 1.7 million Arabic people are still living in Israel.
On July 30 2014 00:18 Nyxisto wrote: @LiquidDrone This map you're posting is intentionally misleading and has been going around the internet a lot. Firstly, the "southern triangle" is nearly completely deserted and virtually no one is living there(which is true for quite a lot of the territory). Just colouring it all in green literally screams. "look here lived a bazillion Palestinians! now they only have these tiny pieces of land! How cruel!" Secondly this map seems to ignore that what has been 'Palestinian' was actually Egyptian and Jordan, why act like there was some kind of State of Palestine? Not to mention that most of the land gains Israel made happened during wars in which they were actually not the aggressor.
As a rebuttal this is pretty much completely unconvincing. It basically reads as "well yes, Israel has taken a fuckton of land, but there are some examples amidst the massively obvious general trend which might take the edge off what you're looking at"
No, this map is completely distorting the picture. If you're making a map in regards to state lines, then you can't just write PALESTINE all over the map. If you're referring to the Palestinian people, then the map also is completely misleading, because 1.7 million Arabic people are still living in Israel.
So Israel hasn't taken a fuckton of land off Palestine since 1967*?
On July 30 2014 00:18 Nyxisto wrote: @LiquidDrone This map you're posting is intentionally misleading and has been going around the internet a lot. Firstly, the "southern triangle" is nearly completely deserted and virtually no one is living there(which is true for quite a lot of the territory). Just colouring it all in green literally screams. "look here lived a bazillion Palestinians! now they only have these tiny pieces of land! How cruel!" Secondly this map seems to ignore that what has been 'Palestinian' was actually Egyptian and Jordan, why act like there was some kind of State of Palestine? Not to mention that most of the land gains Israel made happened during wars in which they were actually not the aggressor.
What happened between 1948 and 1965 IS largely irrelevant for today's discussion - you think Palestinians wouldn't accept going back to 1965 borders? That they are so hell-bent on seeing Israel destroyed that they wouldn't take that?
Well, they say it on a nearly weekly basis: Abu Marzouk, Hamas senior:
the prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! This will not apply to the Gharqad, which is a Jewish tree he prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! This will not apply to the Gharqad, which is a Jewish tree
(I know I'm repeating myself, but I don't understand how people still think that the Hamas would want to live in peace)
what actually repeating itself is the Hamas charter you quoted. Is that correct?
also, this thread is going in circles. currently, the relevant question is whether or not the attack by Israel is justified and whether or not it will actually help to stabilize the region and bring the region forward towards a peaceful soltution of the conflict. to me, it seems that the answer to both of these questions is no.
On July 30 2014 00:18 Nyxisto wrote: @LiquidDrone This map you're posting is intentionally misleading and has been going around the internet a lot. Firstly, the "southern triangle" is nearly completely deserted and virtually no one is living there(which is true for quite a lot of the territory). Just colouring it all in green literally screams. "look here lived a bazillion Palestinians! now they only have these tiny pieces of land! How cruel!" Secondly this map seems to ignore that what has been 'Palestinian' was actually Egyptian and Jordan, why act like there was some kind of State of Palestine? Not to mention that most of the land gains Israel made happened during wars in which they were actually not the aggressor.
As a rebuttal this is pretty much completely unconvincing. It basically reads as "well yes, Israel has taken a fuckton of land, but there are some examples amidst the massively obvious general trend which might take the edge off what you're looking at"
No, this map is completely distorting the picture. If you're making a map in regards to state lines, then you can't just write PALESTINE all over the map. If you're referring to the Palestinian people, then the map also is completely misleading, because 1.7 million Arabic people are still living in Israel.
So Israel hasn't taken a fuckton of land off Palestine since 1967*?
*or insert other appropriate date
There was also a war in 1967 where Israel won and took a lot of land in response to that victory. Israel struck first in the war, which people hold against them, but it was very clear that all sides were looking to invade. The wiki on the subject isn't bad and provides a pretty neutral account:
edit: what I'm getting at is I don't think you or anyone can dispute that Israel has, so I'm not entirely sure why you're so intent on deconstructing the specifics of that map.
On July 29 2014 10:14 Nyxisto wrote: I've never praised terrorism, all I'm arguing is that 1) I don't understand why the internal struggle between the British and the Israelis is relevant, and 2) why the Palestinian's apparently are willing to live under British control while living with Jewish neighbours is apparently so outrageous that they needed to start a war two days after the founding of Israel.
seriously? You don't understand how a colonized people will be pissed off to find that when the colonizers leave, they give the land they colonized to a different people?
The thing is, historically, this type of thing normally has the following happen: the more powerful aggressor takes control of an area. There is some resistance. Then the resistance is quashed, because the more powerful aggressor is more powerful. Then a new status quo is established, where the oppressed people largely accept their new status. And then it stays that way until the more powerful oppressor decides to further oppress. Then you get resistance, quashing of resistance, new established status quo worse than the previous one. There are countless colonies that followed a similar pattern to this - up until the 1960s when various historical developments had caused European powers to accept that colonization was pretty damn immoral which helped facilitate the decolonization. Anyway.
Israel-Palestine follows this same pattern. Israel is the more powerful, and it is the aggressor. Palestinians by large have accepted many of the previous status quos, but Israel keeps fucking settling new areas and taking more and more land. What happened between 1948 and 1965 IS largely irrelevant for today's discussion - you think Palestinians wouldn't accept going back to 1965 borders? That they are so hell-bent on seeing Israel destroyed that they wouldn't take that? It's like, I know you've seen this map before, but I don't see how you can ignore it: + Show Spoiler +
And not only does this showcase the loss of land - it also shows how it's not connected anymore, which considering how they're not allowed to freely travel, is massively fucking inconveniencing and another one of those "new rules" which at first created resistance but which then became part of the "accepted status quo". For me, the worst part of this conflict is not the loss of life. It's the complete loss of humanity and dignity imposed upon millions of people. I understand that it's impossible for me to relate to the fear of the israelis, caused by centuries - if not millenia of persecution and a current state of being surrounded by enemies, but when I try to place myself in the mind of an Israeli and the mind of a Palestinian, in terms of like, deciding which destiny I would rather have for myself or my children, or in terms of which existence I think is more plagued by perpetual fear, it's not even fucking close, and while I don't want to belittle the problems of the Israeli people nor judge them for acting in a way that I perceive as counter-intuitive, it just.. it's unfathomable to me how people can look at this conflict, now, today, and think that Israel is the victim here.
It's like, I've been avoiding this thread deliberately. Now I felt like I was in an exceptionally calm state of mind before I started writing the post. But just through thinking about it for the duration of the post-writing, I can feel myself be angrier now, because it's just.. it makes no sense that smart, intelligent people I respect actually support Israel's actions here. I'm not even talking about the past 40 years or whatever. Just look at what is happening now.. Or the previous war. I don't get it.
The victims are the civilians on BOTH sides.
Sure they are both suffering, but is one Israeli civilian really worth 100+ Palestinians? Don't even suggest that the response is proportional or balanced.
On July 30 2014 00:36 Nyxisto wrote: Here's a rather long blogpost about the map:
Seems legit... I wasn't aware the 'ruminations' of a pro-Israeli blogger counted as a source. Find a legitimate news source debunking the maps and then I'll take you seriously.
edit: what I'm getting at is I don't think you or anyone can dispute that Israel has, so I'm not entirely sure why you're so intent on deconstructing the specifics of that map.
Because the map over simplifies a conflict that has gone on for almost 70 years into two colors and does not reference any of the political issues that were going on at the time. Specifically that the land was occupied by Egypt and Jordan right before the 6 day war.
edit: what I'm getting at is I don't think you or anyone can dispute that Israel has, so I'm not entirely sure why you're so intent on deconstructing the specifics of that map.
Obviously Israel has taken more land, no ones disputing that. But the map is so simplified and distorting that it's nearly a piece of propaganda. It's exemplary of how people try to frame the picture of the "evil colonizer Jew" opposed to the "peaceful Arab people that have been driven out of their country". This is just not how it was in reality. For the longest time Israel has been the defending nation in the region while everybody else openly threatened them with genocide and declaring war on them. If countries with ten times the population of Israel gang up to eradicate them and they repeatedly fail horribly and lose territory as a result, guess what I have trouble feeling very sorry for them.
ignore the first two pictures within the picture. Look at the difference between 67 and 99. That's not a fuck-ton of land taken?
And the point is, yes, hamas is terrible. But Hamas is only relevant as long as there is a more terrible enemy. There is no palestinian gene that makes them hate jews. Hamas being a terrorist organization hopelessly launching missiles at another country and still having the support of nearly half the population, that tells me that the population must have been suffering terribly for a long period of time.
Obviously there's no quick fix here, but the only possible fix other than actual complete genocide to keep this from becoming an eternal war which will vary in tension and thus also in how much it affects the surrounding region, is to stop the cause of increased hatred. We actually know of many ways of decreasing tension between groups of people. It takes time, but it has been shown repeatedly that through education, collaborative cultural work, smartly designed monuments that commemorate without damning, etc, groups that used to hate each other can become friendly. But this cannot happen while the source of all the hatred continues to be seeded. The settlers ARE the reason why this conflict seems completely impossible to resolve. It even might be that they've actually taken so much that we're past the point where Palestinians could grow to accept the current borders even if they weren't further displaced.
Some people seem to read history very selectively here's an abridged version of the creation of Israel. If people want I can keep going up to present. I've tried to keep it as neutral as possible. Keep the dates in mind, as they are often of importance when considering why things happened.
The history of Israel and Palestine.
1500 -> * At the start of the 19th century the Ottomans control the region and have done so for the last 400 years or so. 1917 * During WWI the British Commonwealth courts Jewish support with the Balfour Declaration which basically states that they think a Jewish homeland in the area of Palestine is a good idea if it's possible and the Arab population does not oppose it. (Zionism gets some traction) 1917 * In World War I British forces capture Palestine. 1922 * The British are awarded control over the area under a mandate from the League of Nations (proto-UN) "until such time as they are able to stand alone." The mandate includes references the Belfour declaration. Palestinians basically interpret this as getting their independence, and Jews hope for a homeland rises sharply (Zionism goes +++) 1930 * The area is starting to see increased Jewish migration because of closed migration to the United states, the rise of the NSDAP party in Germany + Show Spoiler +
mods please don't ban because of Hitler reference
and increased hostility and economical problems in Poland. The Jewish immigrants are often wealthy and their purchase of land starts to rile up Arab sentiments in the region. 1933-36 * The Arabs rise up against both the British and against Jews in the Arab revolt. The revolt fails and which severely weakens the Arabs in the region. It does give them more of a national identity as Palestinians. 1931-48 * The Irgun and Lehi, a small Jewish offshoot to the Haganah (defense organisation) commits act of terrorism against both British and Arab targets. Their numbers are small and the larger Jewish majority do not condone aggressive action, especially not during the war. 1937 * The British realize that the mandate has no chance of working and the Peel commission suggest a partion plan which would create two separate countries. The proposal is tentatively accepted by Jewish authority as a base for further negotiation (the deal is far worse than the later proposals when it comes to Jewish lands) but fully rejected by Arabs in the region. 1939 * The White Paper limits immigration of Jews and their purchase of land during the war in order to appease the Arabic world during wartime. The British also states that they have no intentions of allowing a Jewish state in Palestine. The League of nations consider the White Paper to be in violation of the mandate but any further deliberations are stopped by WWII. 1946 * Pressure from the United States and many other countries to allow the immediate immigration of 100.000 European Jews. The British never allows it but it provokes a Jihad from Arab countries with the aim of killing all European Jews in Palestine.
1947 * A partition plan is brought to the UN. It gives 56 % of the land to the Jews (although most of it is dessert) and 44 % to the Palestinian state. The city of Jerusalem is to be a free international city apart from either country. The plan calls for an economic union between the two countries (at the time only about 33 % of the population is Jewish but they contribute most of the economic power in the region, many more settlers are expected which is why the Jewish state was to get the underpopulated areas of the region). The ammount of land owned by Jewish immigrants is about 7 % but this number is not exact at all due to lack of paperwork from the time and illegal purchases. The UN approves the plan as resolution 181(II) after modifications. The Jewish community except some fringe groups accept the plan. The Arab community rejects it completely and also indicate that they will reject any further partition plans. A few Palestinians support the plan as they suspect that the Arab nations have no plans to support an independent state.
1947 * Jewish politicians (Golda Meir et al) courts the British and the king of Jordan urging him to annex the areas who would be Palestine when it's clear that the partition will fail. The suspect that this is the best option for a Jewish state if they want to avoid war. The King initially agrees as does the British but he later changes his mind after internal and external Arabic pressure. 1947 * The approval of resolution 181 starts a 6-month long civil war between nationalist Arab groups and Jewish nationalists. The Arab side is tentatively aided by the Holy War Army and the Arab legion but is outgunned due to the Arab revolt in 1933-36. The British forces present try but can't contain the situation. 1947 * The British parliament votes to end the mandate in 1948. They decide to do nothing to stabilize the situation and only pull of the region. 1948 * As the British forces pull out and the mandate ends the Jewish Agency in Palestine declare independence of the state of Israel. This immediately turns the civil war into a national conflict know as the 1948 Arab-Israeli war.
One one side you have the Palestinians who's stated wargoal is the free state of Palestine. In coalition with them is the kingdoms of Iraq, Egypt, Jordan and Syria. Their own wargoals is mainly to annex as much of Palestine as possible for themselves. The rhetoric from the Arab leadership of what do with the Jews in the region ranges from expelling all European Jews to "a massacre of a size the world has not seen since the mongol hordes or the crusades". Word on the street is "kill the jews". In the beginning of the war Israel is hopelessly outgunned but poor decision making (mainly due to all parties on the other side having different goals and underestimating the enemy as well as overestimating their own capabilities). In the end of the war the Israel army is vastly stronger than the combined enemy side due to a large influx of people and weapons as the British blockade was opened in 1948.
At the end of the war Israel ends up holding about 50 % of the ground in the partition plan designated for the Arabs in addition to the Jewish land. Jordan ends up occupying East Jerusalem and the West Bank. Egypt occupies the Gaza strip. No Palestinian homeland is created.
On ethnic cleansing. During the conflict Israel follows the Plan Dalat. "Its purpose is much debated. The plan was a set of guidelines to take control of the territory of the Jewish state and to defend its borders and people, including the Jewish population outside of the borders, 'before, and in anticipation of' the invasion by regular Arab armies.[1][2] According to the Israeli Yehoshafat Harkabi, "Plan Dalet" called for the conquest of Arab towns and villages inside and along the borders of the area allocated to the proposed Jewish State - according to the UN Partition Plan.[3] In case of resistance, the population of conquered villages was to be expelled outside the borders of the Jewish state. If no resistance was met, the residents could stay put, under military rule.[qt 1][4][5][6] The intent of Plan Dalet is subject to much controversy, with historians on one side asserting that it was entirely defensive, while other historians assert that the plan aimed at the expulsion, sometimes called an ethnic cleansing, which was an integral part of a planned strategy." Not only the purpose of the plan is debated but also how many Palestinians left on orders from their leaders in anticipation of being able to come back after the state of Israel was destroyed. A total of 700.000 Arabs left the region during the war.
Edit: Also keep in mind that the partition plan required the forced movement of 1.000 Jews and 256.000 Arabs and massive population shifts were taking place in Europe or had just happened. "Population transfers" as it was known was very much in vogue at the time since it was seen as the only way to prevent further wars.
About 230.000 Jews are expelled from Arab countries and join together with 470.000 other Jews to populate the new country of Israel.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://www.greenetvert.fr/2012/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Palestine_Evolution46-99.jpg)
